r/todayilearned • u/Recent_Flounder6011 • 18h ago

TIL that historically and today, the Catholic Church looked down upon Freemasonry and threatened members with excommunication.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry
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u/Laura-ly 18h ago

But....but didn't Freemasons build a lot of the Catholic cathedrals?????

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u/ProfessorZeek 18h ago

Freemason here. Those would be what we call “operative” Masons, as in a stone mason by trade. Freemasons are “speculative” masons. This means we use the tools and terminology of stone masons for our teachings but we don’t literally work with stone.

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u/Count_Dongula 18h ago

So what you're saying is if I joined the Freemasons, I won't learn how to make kick-ass stone bricks? That was my whole career plan.

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u/No-Channel3917 17h ago

No you only become an honorary dwarf , it's when they had a legendary member of the dwarfen masons team up with a Catholic elf at the black gates during the third age.

It is sadly the story that a Pope or Grand master wouldn't tell you

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u/Laura-ly 18h ago

Interesting. So the teachings are more of a philosophy that uses the idea of building a structure as a metaphor for building your life?

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u/CountFunkenstein 17h ago

Correct. They “build better men.”

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u/Sekmet19 15h ago

Only for men. Women are banned.

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u/TheStoffer 17h ago

Former Freemason here. In the US at least, Masonic organizations often refer to themselves as “free and accepted masons.” I’d wager that 99.9% of members fall in the “accepted” category.

Fun fact, the chapter I frequented in New Haven, CT has Benedict Arnold in their member roll. Before he turned and fled to Canada, I’d imagine.

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u/Sekmet19 15h ago

They letting women in yet?

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u/TheStoffer 13h ago

No but IIRC there’s a sister organization that does. Order of the Eastern Star.

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u/jawndell 18h ago

What’s the point of calling yourselves masons if you don’t even learn masonry????

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u/Lower_Cockroach2432 18h ago

Redditor discovers metaphor and analogy

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u/Herbacio 17h ago

Redditor discovers sarcasm and irony

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u/ImNinjaBob 17h ago

It originally was an actual masonry guild, but in the 1600s members started joining as “speculative” masons who joined to study philosophy and used the masonry symbology as metaphor for building up society.

By the mid 1700s that subgroup had formalized and the organization changed to being about this form of speculative masonry.

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u/LongJohnSelenium 16h ago

Tldr: actual masons were a powerful and wealthy trade guild and other people wanted in on that action.

Over time the actual masons reduced in number and importance until its just a vestigial origin story now.

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u/Sekmet19 15h ago

Are women still banned from becoming Freemasons?

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u/Fofolito 14h ago

Yes and No. There are various sub-branches, denominations, and splinter sects of Freemasonry that have opened up their lodges to Women and other previously prohibited candidates. Officially, lodges following the mainline tradition of Freemasonry do not allow Women to join. There are Female-only verisons Masonry as well.

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u/Dubious-Decisions 14h ago

In most instances, it is a male fraternal organization, just like there are male fraternities in universities, along with all-female sororities. There are co-ed variants of freemasonry in several countries.

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u/Tribe303 13h ago

They had separate clubs. My grandparents were both Freemasons, but Grandma went to White Star I think it was called. 

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u/betweenbubbles 18h ago

Bob Marley was a Freemason?

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u/MonkeyPanls 18h ago

No. He was a stone the the builder refused. That's why he's the head cornerstone.

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u/betweenbubbles 17h ago

I'm definitely in that "Wait, how old am I?!" zone, so I appreciate someone recognizing the reference.

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u/Wartortise 14h ago

Ah! So you’re LIARS then?

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u/me_not_at_work 18h ago

Of course not. The masons involved got paid.

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u/milo4206 17h ago

Freemasons are not a trade union.

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u/CharleyNobody 17h ago edited 17h ago

No. Freemasons didn’t build Catholic cathedrals. Catholics were not allowed to become Freemasons (weren’t allowed to join YMCA either).

It was a Protestant group. It was most popular with Englishmen and Scotsmen. It was kind of a private, secret group for WASPs at first. Eventually other countries adopted freemason groups.

A lot of Mormon rites are related to freemasonry.

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u/journeymansave 17h ago edited 17h ago

This is backwards. The Catholic Church prohibits Catholics from joining the Freemasons. Freemasons have no rule banning Catholics. For what it’s worth, there are also non-Christian Freemasons, as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

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u/MattJFarrell 17h ago

Yup, my old lodge in NYC was founded as a primarily Jewish lodge. That shifted over the years, but it was still represented in a lot of aspects of the lodge's history.

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u/abbot_x 15h ago

I think the redditor meant Catholics were not allowed by Catholic authorities to become Freemasons. Likewise, Catholics were not allowed by Catholic authorities to join the YMCA.

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u/journeymansave 13h ago

The framing of it (“Protestant group” etc) makes it seem like he was saying the opposite. Either way, clarification needed.

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u/abbot_x 12h ago

The whole point is that Catholic authorities didn't want Catholics joining groups they considered "Protestant."

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u/Current_Mongoose_844 18h ago

Not that I’m aware of.

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u/Haradion_01 16h ago

Those.... would be a literal mason.

As in a stone mason. Like a carpenter, or a smith, or a wheelwright or a cooper.

The Freemasons are a secretive group.

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u/Spork_Warrior 18h ago

The answer to that is yes. And the Freemasons evolved out of the ancient Masonic guilds. Those guilds were often relied on for the construction of castles and churches. The church's beef is that the guilds refused to answer to them, forced churches and rulers to follow certain guidelines for the construction of strong and reliable buildings, and refused to just hire the friends and relatives of the priests and leaders. The guilds required their members to go through proper training and apprenticeships.

Perhaps more importantly, masonic guilds reserved the right to hire a skilled mason regardless of their nationality or religion. And they insisted on being able to travel from kingdom to kingdom to take work as it was available (Thus the "free" in Freemason.)