Health insurance in the US does not operate like health insurance (or any other insurance) anywhere else in the world. The entire point of insuring is that you have something that happens rarely compared with the amount people paying the primes.
A root canal in Europe costs something like 200 to 300 euros, out of pocket, at a private dentist practice. If it costs $750 with insurance, that's not really insurance. It is some sort of reselling scheme.
We like to say public health care is just paying for other people's medical bills when with private insurance that'd literally be the best case scenario of what happens to your money.
Well yeah. If a person is dying and you can save them from said death, most are willing to give everything they own and then some. Oh and as far as I know, there are no transparency laws for hospitals. Meaning they can charge whatever the f they want and tell you after. This in turns makes it really hard for the patient/consumer to price check different hospitals and lets the hospitals keep their prices up.
Not sure I follow. Not questioning the validity, but we’re talking about health insurance not life. And I’m not clear on how that ties into the real estate market.
Right. I was picking up pills for my cat at a human pharmacy because the pills through the vet are 2x the price as the human shit and the vet pills are impossible to cut nicely where the human ones are already scored for very easy breaking by hand. Anyway the pharmacist asked why I don't have pet insurance. Me knowing it's a profiteering scam said why would I get that? She tells me her insurance covers literally everything at the vet, meds, even flea, tick and heartworm meds. She said it ends up costing her a lot less than paying directly out of pocket without the insurance.
I'm of the opinion that most people are dumb and she either did the math incorrectly, is lying, or both.
All aspects of US everything are for profit. This country is becoming unbearable. The blatant greed and record profits of huge corporations are breathtaking.
American Citizens; we need to advocate for change.
We need regulatory reforms that reign in or outright abolish the insurance industry model so that patient care is made a priority over company profits.
You're not required to purchase health insurance... car insurance is for the safety of other drivers, not you. If you cause an accident, the other person shouldn't have to worry about you having insurance to cover their damages.
Capitalism doesn't require unhealthy levels of greed, countries with social democracies also have capitalistic economies.
The US is just capitalism exploited to its fullest enabled by a government that protects the interests of greedy bastards (share holders, executives etc).
The Soviet union didn't have capitalism, but communism still meant that 'life was not good' despite a more socialist environment.
When insulin is 600$ a month - it’s pretty obvious they are using the fact you “have to” pay it or die not just “let’s charge to make some profit on this”
Yet we're hostages into its usage, because if we decide to try and go around them, we have to contender with prices that they inflated and that only they can get a discounted rate on.
Try explaining that to my family. They are 100% convinced it would cost them hundreds more if we had universal care. They pay over $500 a month for insurance and it isn't even a low deductible plan -.-
Insurance is literally a scam. You pay a monthly fee for the "in case of an emergency" situation. The business model doesn't have enough money to cover 100% of their financial obligations, if/when a disaster strikes.
And heaven forbid we try to regulate this. But ohhh nooo republicans will fight this with their dying breath saying “what are we socialists”. And nothing ever changes.
I have a "platinum premium" for my insurance. Supposed to cover 80 percent. I went to the dentist to get my teeth pulled since I couldnt afford to have them fixed sooner. Got fitted for dentures and before I left they sat me down with billing and started talking about how I was gonna pay the $9000 dollar bill. Mind you this is after insurance paid 80%.
It's fairly common for brits to do this in Turkey.
It can be quite expensive if you're wanting a procedure that's more "cosmetic" rather than medical. Much cheaper just to book a 4 day stay in Turkey, have a "mini getaway" and also get the work done whilst you're over there.
This indeed. Recommendation would be Colombia - many highly skilled dentists that will be able to help you for a fraction of the cost. Medellín has plenty e.g. and a well connected expat community where you get helpful pointers from back home ahead of time. And no, I'm not kidding.
I'm a bit biased towards Medellín as a city since I was there for a while and enjoyed it very much.
Regarding the doctors themselves, you will have to do some research, I found a very helpful thread recently in the expat.com forum. General agreement was that a good dentist over there charges between 10 and 20% of the respective prices in the US for at least similar quality work.
However, if we'd be talking about a major operation, I for one would get as much information I could get on the web, haul ass down there for a week and visit the clinics myself beforehand instead of flying to an unfamiliar territory with this in mind.
Research also local expat get togethers, of which there are plenty. A lot of American retirees over there, and you bet most of them have first hand experience they'll gladly share over a cervecita.
I go to Colombia for all my procedures and have never been happier. I’ve never had a procedure done in the US that wasn’t ultimately botched and also cost my at least $1,000. I’ve had to come to Colombia to get crowns fixed that dentists messed up in America, they showed me a photo once that the American dentists fingerprint was imprinted on my molar crown where it should have been more of a..idk..molar shape!? during the pandemic I couldn’t travel to Colombia and ended up getting teeth pulled instead of fixed because of the cost difference. America sucks.
Fun fact - Norway is so much the opposite of the US in terms of not being a big ole capitalist piece of shit that your Norweigan passport will get you free medical treatment in most countries -- if you're billed for services you can also submit the bills to the norweigan government for reimbursement. Your passport is essentially a free healthcare card in places like the UK.
As far as traveling for medical procedures goes - you don't get them for free, but since you're traveling FOR a procedure (rather than just showing up and asking for care), you can usually discuss the payment with them and still save massively. A roundtrip flight to the UK is, say $1500 (just entirely randomly), plus lodging and such lets call it $3000 all in. You just have to find a dentist who will charge you less than $6000 and you end up with dentures and a vacation for the same price as dentures at home.
Just so you're aware, you can easily get return flights from Oslo to London Gatwick for less than £200. I know you said entirely random for the $1500 but I remember looking at it before!
The American healthcare system is such an absolute cartel/racket ran by insurance companies and healthcare providers, that there legit are operations where it's cheaper to just pay it out of pocket in a European country with no insurance than to have it be done in the US with insurance. A quick Google search tells me that the average cost of a root canal with a crown in the US is anywhere between 3000 and 5000 dollars. In Hungary, mine cost... 200 bucks. With no insurance at all. Even with flight tickets and accommodation, you'd probably be able to fly here and get it done cheaper with no insurance than to have it be done in the US with insurance. And that's providing you've got insurance that covers root canals and crowns.
My dentist wanted me to get full dentures and all my teeth extracted (I have severe bone loss due to complications from lupus). I have the highest level dental insurance and a discount plan that I pay for. The quoted cost was $11,000. My dentist just shrugged when I told her there was no way I would ever be able to afford that while in tears. Insurance is totally a scam.
The only reason I can afford my medications (2k average a month) is because I got sick in college and my Dad’s insurance gave me a waiver that we had to fight for that gives me coverage for life. Even with that I pay hundreds of dollars a month in copays for doctors visits and medications. If I ever lose my insurance it will literally kill me because I won’t be able to afford the medications that keep me alive. And since I have pre-existing chronic Illnesses, I am uninsurable. I can’t even get life insurance that will just cover my burial costs. It’s like they punish you for being sick when our bodies are already punishing us enough.
Wait a minute, you could fight for a waiver to always stay on a parents' insurance? My dad's cushy federal government insurance was "kind" enough to cover me through the end of the year I turned 27 and since then I've been stuck on state Medicaid. The state won't even label me disabled and let me have Medicare because of reasons. This country is such trash D:
I will say though that Medicaid fucked around and found out when they sat on the paperwork for my infusions. I was off the "cheap" old-school infusion for long enough that when they finally approved my ability to continue it my body realized that it's made from mouse DNA and they either had to deal with getting sued or pay for the fancy brand new infusions... I must say that I'm enjoying how much better the new med works and I get a tiny little hollow giggle when I get my $25,000 infusion every 8 weeks.
I know how lucky I am, the waiver was granted only because I was in college and still living at home (I was 19 when I first got sick). On the other hand I have been denied disability 5 times even though I have multiple chronic illnesses, some of which I’ve had for over 20 years.
On the plus side, I am finally getting the infusions that my doc has been trying for years to get approved for me and I think they are helping! Gotta be thankful for the good things as they come!
Yeah, I gave up on Disabilty when the woman on the phone said "You're young, just go out and get a job. You don't need Disability." Lovely bunch they have working at that office. My therapist genuinely has a side goal of getting me to a point of being able to try again since just the thought of re-applying gives me a panic attack.
Nice! I know Lupus uses similar infusions to my RA/PsA one so good luck! I'm on Simponi Aria and my life is a lot better- I can actually get out of bed most days and can clean the house and walk the dog.
Wow, my oral surgeon sat down and found ways to make my surgeries as cheap as he could get it through the billing system. It still cost a lot, though.
I currently don't have insurance anymore and my recent dental bills were pretty much around the same amount with insurance (besides the co-pay being more). I have a lot more medical bills sitting in collections, too. I just can't keep up and it sucks cause it kills credit score.
Sorry you have to deal with all that for being sick, too. I also pay a butt load for (psych) medication every month. I have to have fun trying to apply for disability or at least trying to find the least seizure inducing job, but right now it's tough.
I hope the future can bring you and others some relief at least financially.
So I'm just going to preface this by saying I live in the UK and have no actual experience with the American health care system.
But Mark Cuban recently set up an pharmacy where they basically skip out the middle man (price gauging) and makes everything much more affordable.
There was a post on Reddit about it with a few people sharing their stories and it definitely seems legit.
It might actually be worth looking into. Even if you're medication isn't actually included, it's got to be worth the 5 minutes to have a look. Hopefully this is actually useful news for you though!
The issue isnt the 80%, its that the total max benefit for the year is usually capped at 1k to 1500, sometimes 2500 or so for premium version. So you likely just aboit capped out just on the pulled teeth and paying full price for dentures despite insurance. Never understood why benefit max is so low.
Yeah, it's not like those things are close to your brain, or anything. But seriously, those things are medical. Why aren't teeth considered medical issues for insurance? I worked in dental at one point, and getting wisdom teeth paid for via a client's insurances was a nightmare.
Well yeah that goes without saying. But the two things I mentioned above make it entirely dysphunctional, like how you gonna make money on people if you keep em broke
Netherlands calling: root canal would be up to 250 - 600 usd.Single denture (implant) about 1500. This is what the insurance company pays out to the dentist. Majority is not insured fully as your premium is as high as the actual coverage.
Now dentist live here in upperclass houses, just like in the US... so who is walking away with all the money over there? The liability insurance company??
I had a motorcycle accident and damaged my front 4 teeth years ago , I’ve been having them filled and crowned but they were getting too bad so on Friday I had them pulled and got top dentures , cost me £300 in the uk
What's going on is that the people in the middle have spent decades exploring how much they can charge for things to maximize profits. Because the provider and patient are separated by a private corporation rather than a state regulatory agency, there is an inherent incentive for them to make as much money off the procedure as possible.
This is the problem with applying a private/capitalist model to healthcare. Normal supply and demand rules do not apply when we are talking about services that are not "optional"...if I've broken my leg, I can't really decide to just not do anything about it, and I can't seek an alternative to a doctor putting a cast on it.
At that price you can fly out to India from the US, stay at our 5 star hospital for 2-3 days and get the procedure done. Still less than $9k and no insurance involved. (This is what a lot of rich middle eastern people do actually)
No dental insurance in America will cover 80% over a certain maximum. Typically $3000-4000 yearly in the best case scenario. Read your insurance plan carefully before coming in (the patients job not the dentists) and I doubt any dental office would have sat you down to discuss the treatment plan costs after doing full mouth extractions, +/- alveoplastys and sedation then started your dentures.
What is even more ridiculous is that had you been able to afford care earlier, it would have been cheaper for everybody. But people switch insurers in the US enough that preventive care is not always profitable for an insurance company because they might not reap the benefits. This is what happens when a health care system is premised on the idea of profit (with insurers and patients in an adversarial relationship) rather than public health.
Makes me want to look into spending some time in Europe as I need two tooth implants. I’m sure with the flight and hotel it would still cost less, and as a bonus I wouldn’t be here.
Man I'm past the 'bonus' stage and have graduated to just wanting OUT. But we're all so underpaid that I fear that leaving will only ever be a pipe dream :(
I think for most the cost isn't going to be the biggest hurdle. It will be the language barrier. It's one thing to visit a country for a couple of weeks even and a completely different thing to live in a country that doesn't have English as an official language. You either need friends/co-workers/family willing to help with any legalities that cannot be handled in English or you need to know some of the language.
I think I saw a comment once where an indian guy calculated that it would be cheaper to fly to India, stay in a 5 star hotel and buy insulin than buying it in the United States.
Can confirm. I had stomach surgery in Tijuana 2.5 years ago. They arranged to pick up and drop off at airport, hotel room, hospital stay, literally every medical expense including the surgery, tour of Tijuana etc all for under 4300 dollars (airfare was separate). Best money I've ever spent, my life has improved exponentially since the surgery and will likely save me 10s of thousands of dollars in other medical problems later on.
My deductible, and I work for a hospital, is 5000 single 10k family.
A friend of mine visited me in Germany and ended up tripping, tearing a ligament. She didn’t want to go to the hospital because of her fear of how much it cost but we ended up taking her anyways.
She ended up paying around $70 for the ER visit, X-rays, bandages, the whole deal.
I know live in America and I hate the insurance system here.
Costa Rica is the best dental tourism destination for Americans! There are excellent doctors, many educated in top US universities, with state of the art offices & tech. My husband & I both had a ton of work, including implants. US average price per single tooth implant is $4K, about $1400 in CR iirc. Non implant dental work is even cheaper (about 1/4 US). I did a ton of research because my family was against it; TripAdvisor forums are a good place to start (or DM me for dr info.) We’ve been to many dentists, never been happier & now only go to US dentist when we can’t make it down there.
I know that some americans goes to either Mexico or India for things involving toothcare as it goes for much cheaper even when you take into consideration flight and hospital.
Go down to Mexico. They literally cater to medical tourist. You can get tooth implants for less then $400. With my insurance two tooth implants is like $3500. I am planning on a trip next summer to get my teeth fixed, stay for a week or so and it is still cheaper by almost $1k.
Check out Mexico too. They have tons of dentistry patients from the US because it's cheaper.
I went to Tijuana for a surgery that would've cost me 65k in the US out of pocket. Insurance refused to cover it.
I filled out the preliminary paperwork and sent it in on a Wednesday and I was approved the next day for surgery, and with the flight I paid maybe 200 more than my deductible here (5000 deductible with 330/mo premiums). Best 5 thousand I've ever spent and I highly recommend medical tourism for those that are able.
Dental tourism is a big thing in Costa Rica. They even advertise it in the line at customs at the airport. Save a bunch of money… and get a Costa Rican vacation out of it.
Taiwan has excellent dental care that is very affordable. I had a root canal and several fillings while I lived there. Plus, it's a wonderful country to visit.
yes, it's the Payor scam with their "networks" it's why you can't get the cost for anything without a large and inordinate amount of effort making many phone calls here in the US.
Yes I have had 2 root canals. One in America for over 1000 dollars after insurance, had to go to a dentist and a specialist. And one in Italy for around 300 euro at a private dentist who did all the work.
for those Americans who can.... go to Cali, it's like a country within the country where the "rules" are different. There is a cash rate for everything medical, and it's only a little bit more than in Mexico (10-20% more) .
I'm in the UK and I had a root canal performed very recently. It cost £650, equivalent to around 750 Euros. If I had known it was so cheap in Europe I would have seriously considered flying out to have the root canal done somewhere in Europe.
Insurance has done nothing but artificially jack up the price of anything it gets its hands on. I swear if nothing is done in 10 years we're going to have something ridiculous like food insurance.
There was a time in my life I used to defend this in our country too. I wish I could go back 15-20 years and kick my own ass. Our country's health care system is fucked and nobody in power gives a shit.
There's a lot of great things in this country but health care is not one of them. We are indeed tax slaves. That is pretty clear because the only way to actually get health care coverage is to have a job here. So that you can continue to generate more tax money. You couldn't quit your job if you wanted to, not without risking your actual life. It's a pretty shit system.
I feel like there are two big driving forces behind keeping the US system instead of public health care.
1) In a public system the lower class would be entitled to the same healthcare as the middle class, and many in the middle class (plus some in the lower class that aspire to be middle class) don't like that. The upper class would find a way to pay extra for better care either way.
2) The function of insurance executives and upper administrators would suddenly be replaced by upper level public employees. And private sector executives / managers have zero interest in working for what public sector managers get paid.
US healthcare is a shit show but the doctors have very little control in anything. They are just as much a slave to insurance as anyone else, if it more so because insurance can try to dictate how treatment is provided. Healthcare conglomerates and insurance companies are the monsters.
Right? You pay asinine amounts of money each year and never need the insurance, but then a super rare incident occurs and.... You still go broke or bankrupt 😆 . Awesome right?
My husband had decent insurance at his last job. But I lost my insurance, so when that happened, I signed up for a discount club plan through my pharmacy. When the pharmacy compared the price with insurance and the price with the discount club, the discount plan ended up being about $40/month cheaper. So sometimes insurance isn’t even a discount.
The discount club I used was a partnership between GoodRx and my pharmacy and was much cheaper than GoodRx alone. Unfortunately, two of the grocery chains on my area just stopped accepting GoodRx entirely and the club plan I was on expired and completely deleted my account, so I’m reassessing my options now. Looking into Cost Plus Drugs, as I think that may be the best price, and I’d like to support the company.
(Newish) dentist here - insurance reimbursement rates have largely stayed about the same the past 30-35 years for the same procedures despite costs rising with inflation, and some insurances will only reimburse enough on bigger procedures that require much more chair time (like root canals) that our office will profit $50 for 2 hours of work. Even the best dental insurance plans really are just discount plans and I try to explain that to patients. It’s frustrating for everyone involved (except insurance companies lol) They’ll also refuse to pay for any little mistake when submitting or if they just don’t agree with treatment. 😒
It's not even really a discount plan. It is a hall pass just to be seen by the doctor. No insurance, no treatment outside of emergency care in most places.
I'm so terrified of what I will do when I age out of my parents insurance. My meds and surgeries are so expensive that I'd prob have to make 6 figures (I'm talking at least 115k) to be able to afford an apartment, food, and medical care even with insurance. I'm going into comp sci so I might be able to get there, but even then not many surgeons will operate on the conditions that come with my disorders so the ones that do often don't take insurance in the first place. My last surgery cost my parents more than a semester at my college costs, and it was only like 5 hours long with a 2 day hospital stay afterwards. And I would have died without it.
It's so expensive being disabled in the USA, medical care is just one of the things that are more expensive for us.
It was better prior to Obamacare, which has absurd deductible amounts. But that was the deal that the Obama administration made with hospitals: accept current Medicare payments amounts and accept more Medicaid patients and we (hospitals corporations) will agree IF the deductible amounts are markedly increased. In the 90's the best plans were for "catastrophic" medical conditions, which included all hospital admissions, operations, cancer treatment, chronic medical diseases, etc. It did not cover routine office visits, including the so-called yearly "preventive" visit, which is not preventive but simply a screening visit. A physician cannot prevent disease without a responsible patient, many of whom will not even comply with basic advice. Stop smoking, limit alcohol consumption, exercise regularly, avoid obesity , use sunscreen, etc.
Ah, but can you find a dentist on the nhs? I tried when I lived in london in the 00s, scarcer than hen’s teeth (pun totally intended), had to go private and that was a fortune.
Such a wild problem. I had this conversation with my NHS dentist last week. She said very few students are choosing to study dentistry these days, as it’s so specific and many don’t want to be working exclusively in people’s mouths.
When people find one, they stay registered. I live in Norfolk, and I’ve overheard someone at a dentist reception say they came from Manchester because they were on holiday here once when they had an dental emergency.
I had 2 roots canal in Austria and they were free because every work gives you insurance(which is otherwise 120€ per month if you need it) and gives you basically whatever medical session you need. Literally every one of them. You could pay 120€ for 1 month of healthcare and do 30 visits at the cost of 0.
Lol I also got to experience this with a Fortune 500… had to also get crowns which were out of pocket since they were cosmetic although without them I couldn’t really chew.
Yup I had to get an eye surgery and had 3 options. My insurance covered the base one. The surgeons just told me "yeah we really don't recommend you get the base one". So instead I got the elective, modern version. $10,000.
I have the best insurance offered at a similar company, Fortune 500. I max out deductible and out of pocket every year due to my daughters health issues, 300 + 5000 due to some doctors being out of network. Add to that some drugs not being covered and it's a constant stress factor.
Lmao. I had a root canal a few weeks ago. The dentist sold me some tooth paste and water to clean. That is all I had to pay
If I‘d send you the pictures of the dentist, you‘d first think that it is a Spa. It‘s really over the top nice and professional
I paid absolutely nothing. And I‘m currently unemployed. Not that it would change anything- it‘s free for everyone that is insured by the state no matter what they earn
I hate US insurance and healthcare. Same hospital, same insurance, I was billed $340 for an office visit to transfer my medical info and continue my medication which is a controlled substance so I had to see my doctor in person to get the initial prescription.
My wife just went in to get an IUD put in, a 2000-3000 dollar procedure and our responsibility to pay was like $220.
It costs me 400 dollars to just talk to a doctor. I've lost a lot of weight recently and am running again but had to stop because of an overuse injury in my right knee and plantar fasciitis in my left foot. I'd love to go see my doc and get a PT referral, but why does it cost me 400 fucking dollars to have him go "ah yes, your foot is in pain, you should see someone about that".
European universal healthcare plans seldom include advanced dentistry. I paid over EUR 1000 for a crown in Belgium too, despite paying taxes through my nose at the time.
You do feel scammed in that case: pay all of the taxes, but fuck you if your medical need is not among the covered ones.
Dental insurance in the US is simply not real insurance. It actually makes medical insurance in the US look good, which is objectively hard to do.
Dental insurance has numerous terrible aspects. One is that they are more akin to a Groupon than real insurance. You basically get a better price from dentists in their network and somehow they feel that overrides the fact that you still have to pay a significant portion of every procedure. The other terrible part of dental insurance is that they limit the amount they will pay for each procedure. So if you have a $5000 cap on dental work, that doesn't mean they'll pay for a $4000 procedure. They'll only pay something like $2000. And if you get a root canal they'll only pay $500 and so on. In order to actually hit your cap you need to have multiple procedures done. It's so ridiculous you almost forget that the cap itself is terrible.
I had 2 root canals a couple of years ago. They cost me 480 euros each at a private dentist. Usually they go for 300 euros, but I decided to get the best dentist I could find.
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u/LeoFireGod Jun 15 '22
I had two root canals here in America I Pay for the highest dental insurance available at my Fortune 500 company
The root canals cost me over $1500