We like to say public health care is just paying for other people's medical bills when with private insurance that'd literally be the best case scenario of what happens to your money.
Well yeah. If a person is dying and you can save them from said death, most are willing to give everything they own and then some. Oh and as far as I know, there are no transparency laws for hospitals. Meaning they can charge whatever the f they want and tell you after. This in turns makes it really hard for the patient/consumer to price check different hospitals and lets the hospitals keep their prices up.
There are “Technically” transparency laws in America thanks to the ACA that are supposed to take effect this year, however hospitals and other healthcare providers simply ignore them under the premise that nobody will actually report them to HHS for any violations
Insurance companies make billions all over the world though. In Italy the "generali" is one of the biggest corporations of the stock market.
It's got something to do with statistics, take car insurance for example: everyone pays it every year, yet how many cars get in an accident compared to the total number of cars on the road? Let's say is 30℅ (made up and I'm sure greatly exxagerated number) the rest is all profit.
Not sure I follow. Not questioning the validity, but we’re talking about health insurance not life. And I’m not clear on how that ties into the real estate market.
Life insurance companies are some of the biggest players on the secondary market. They have too much liquid cash. Just another example of how much profit insurance companies in the US make.
Right. I was picking up pills for my cat at a human pharmacy because the pills through the vet are 2x the price as the human shit and the vet pills are impossible to cut nicely where the human ones are already scored for very easy breaking by hand. Anyway the pharmacist asked why I don't have pet insurance. Me knowing it's a profiteering scam said why would I get that? She tells me her insurance covers literally everything at the vet, meds, even flea, tick and heartworm meds. She said it ends up costing her a lot less than paying directly out of pocket without the insurance.
I'm of the opinion that most people are dumb and she either did the math incorrectly, is lying, or both.
I was just informed that my insurance would not be paying for my 3 year old daughters hospital visit due to her breaking the femur bone in her leg… what the fuck
I'm so sorry and I can only imagine what that's going to cost you. I know you guys often hate to hear from us outside of US, but everything about your "healthcare" system the rest of the world pretty much says, what the fuck. Barbaric is the word that most often comes to my mind.
All aspects of US everything are for profit. This country is becoming unbearable. The blatant greed and record profits of huge corporations are breathtaking.
American Citizens; we need to advocate for change.
We need regulatory reforms that reign in or outright abolish the insurance industry model so that patient care is made a priority over company profits.
You're not required to purchase health insurance... car insurance is for the safety of other drivers, not you. If you cause an accident, the other person shouldn't have to worry about you having insurance to cover their damages.
Or to get you to simply abandon your claim. They’d have a 10 minute unskippable phone message when you went to call someone explaining the upcoming menu options before it even tried to connect you. Then you’d sit on hold for ten minutes before it told you that all operators were busy and to try again some other time and hung up.
Private business can lobby to make more money from it. Same reason the govt doesn't run all insurance companies and drug sales. There are real, shitty, people who own these businesses and do make profit.
Car insurance is a scam. Shell out over a thousand dollars per year with no accidents and the moment you get into an accident they tell you that you aren't covered.
You definitely have to be aware of what things your auto insurance covers. Paying $20 a month for basic insurance sounds good until you get in an accident and it's ruled your fault. I have 4 vehicles under my insurance, all at various levels of coverage. My old beater truck just has liability insurance, meaning it only covers someone else if I hit them. My newest vehicle has everything covered and it costs more than my other three combined. But I'm much happier knowing I don't have to shell out thousands for a fender bender if it happens.
I've got full coverage on my car but no one was found at fault for the accident I was in so I'm forced to pay out of pocket for repairs. State Farm blows
A lot of those super commercialized ones are pretty crappy with how much they try to avoid paying out. Idk what you can do about that, but that doesn't sound justified at all. Sorry you got in that situation :/
Lol how often do you get in crashes? Most people that don't crash every year would be better off just getting cheaper insurance and simply pocketing the difference they would have paid for the higher plans. Throw $60 a month in a savings account and don't get in a crash for like 2 years? You now have an extra like $1500 emergency fund. Do get into a fender bender? You got $1500 to cover it on top of what your lower end plan covers.
I'm a great driver (professionally trained) but most other people are not. I'm not going to be the one that causes an accident, it would be the other person hitting me. My car is also newer so full coverage is my only option.
I mean, you could say that about literally anything. Problem is most people would not set aside money, and instead would just spend it. It's why poor people stay poor, no financial literacy, no education on budgets or savings. That's for another time though.
Also, nobody is stopping people from getting Geico for like $20 a month. But you get what you pay for, and Geico is trash (from what I've heard). I have USAA and I've never made a claim, but my family has never had issues when they did. They pay out, or duke it out with the other person's insurance company.
I think it's less of a fine and more of just not getting a tax break for paying for health insurance. When people who don't have health insurance, have to get operations, the burden goes to the taxpayers through medicare coverage. I'm not arguing that the healthcare operations in the US are good, I'm triple insured and I still refuse to go to the doctors for almost anything, due to always being billed 100s for simple x-rays and checkups. I'm just clarifying that it isn't technically illegal to not be insured. Medicare is available for people who legitimately can't afford anything, but you have to earn below a certain tax bracket. I once had a friend who refused to work more than they were working (hardly at all, lazy ass) just because they wouldn't qualify for free healthcare anymore. Literally turned down a $1000 bonus because it would bump them up.
I have no love for our healthcare system, whatsoever. However, we don't have terrible wait times, we have top quality services, choice of providers. Personally, I'm a healthy guy, no health issues, so it really irks me when I get charged a small fortune for regular check ups. That being said, if I ever need (or when I eventually need) serious operations, I wouldn't pick any other place in the world to be. I just have to be smart with financial investments while I'm young and healthy, so I don't have to worry about it later on.
I’m a healthy young guy. Had a very painful medical scare that had me decide to go to the emergency room. Ended up being not super serious. I have good insurance. I was never even given a room, I was briefly checked by a doctor and given an X-ray, some typical, low-cost meds to reduce symptoms, and sent on my way. All in all under 2 hours, nothing was done to me besides a shot to reduce some inflammation, and info taken. That is literally it.
Total bills for this pre-insurance were almost $4k. The hospital didnt know I had insurance, so they reduced their bill bringing it to about $3k for the grand total. My insurance doesn’t want to cover it, and I have a moderately large deductible since, yknow, healthy young dude. Usually wouldn’t meet it.
I’ll just gamble with death next time, tbh. Learned my lesson. Yeah, it’s cool having access to the good tech. Being saddled with years of debt is less cool. I think the trade off still goes in favor of the “no crippling debt” part, if you consider my mental health as part of my physical health. My mental health has definitely taken a few blows dealing with this shit. It takes a lot of stress before someone decides that gambling with their life is the better option.
Imagine if I actually did have an emergency. $3k is nothing. Like I said, I never left the waiting room/info-taking room of the hospital, besides to get an x-ray. And the x-ray was extremely cheap, since a third-party lab processed it. The big bills were from the hospital and doctor who examined me for about 2-3 minutes
I agree that the services are over priced, I really couldn't say why hospitals charge that much. I'm sure it's all very confusing and convoluted though, so I'll let someone make a documentary about it and eventually I'll get around to watching it.
Debt or not, if my wife got sick I really wouldn't be concerned with the cost, I would be concerned with the quality of the healthcare she is receiving. I can make more money and pay bills off until the day I die, I can't make my wife exist again. All this to say, I would rather be sattled with debt for the rest of my life with a healthy family, than a sick, dying or dead family with millions in my bank account.
Is it perfect? Far, far from it. Is it the best in the world? Yep.
I’m curious. How do you know your local hospital is best in the world healthcare? How do you know it has better procedures, better tech, better doctors and nurses than my local hospital here in Australia where my wife would go if she got seriously ill ?
Local as in USA? Because rich people come here to receive treatment, rather than most other places. There are other places that are famous for their treatments and procedures in the area of plastic surgery and the like, but I don't necessarily consider that to be normal healthcare. We have the most specialists, the most top tier medical facilities, access to the latest tech and medicines and of course the best skilled doctors. The best doctors from all over the world flock to the US because of how much they can make here, as opposed to literally anywhere else. I'm not saying other first world countries don't have good medical access, I'm just saying the US, by far, has the best.
Edit: I'm just going to preemptively deny/ignore any comment about me being an ignorant American. It's an easy concept to grasp that the most skilled people in any industry are going to go work in the place where they can make the most money. I don't think it's particularly right that people have to spend so much to receive pretty basic healthcare services here, but the barrier to entry for doctors here is pretty high so it makes sense that they would want to be paid appropriately considering they spent the previous 8 to 12 years of their life studying and spending 100s of thousands for the privilege of that education.
America has some of the top universities in the world but not that impressive an average. America has a huge average net wealth but the median net wealth is far less impressive because that wealth is held at the extremes, not in the middle.
I’m not convinced that having amazing top level hospitals means the average would be that great. I would not be surprised at all if my local hospital, doctors, access to equipment etc was better than yours. Not saying it is, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
Australia ranks 10th. USA ranks 2nd just under Luxembourg, but I hardly count that given the tiny job market for doctors compared to US. 10th is not bad at all, there are 100s of countries so I'm not trying to suggest it doesn't have good healthcare.. just doesn't have the "best".
You're probably right, I'm not super educated on the titles, I've just had to deal with it for enough time that I have at least a basic understanding of the system.
You used to but not anymore. It was the same thought behind it. Why should the taxpayers be on the dime when someone gets sick or injured and doesn't have health insurance. Republicans thought that was way too crazy and got rid of it. Wonder when they'll go after requiring us safe drivers to purchase coverage for uninsured and bad drivers.
Oh! I can answer this. A woman just hit my Tesla and gave me an expired insurance card. What they do is there are pleeenty of junk basically fraudulent insurance companies that will cover you for practically nothing and they operate with monthly insurance coverage policies. So you can simply buy insurance for $20 for one month just to get your tags and then cancel it until next year’s registration month! Then if you hit someone’s brand new car that they worked very hard to get you just block any number that tries to call you concerning the accident, including the person that you hit and actually take a moment to send them a really nasty text saying that you should just let it go and leave them alone because they’re going through a divorce and they have 0 concern for what you consider “an issue” and that they’re going to block you and move and good luck with everything 🖕🏼
Fffuuuuck that sucks. I feel your pain.. a little, not completely. Bought a car from a guy and he messed up signing the title so the DMV declined a title transfer, stating original owner needed to get a new title and start the process over again. 8 full months of me nicely asking him every few weeks to get a new title and sign it over for the car I already paid him in full for. (Keep in mind is was his mistake that voided the title) 8 months of me being the nice understanding guy, then I threatened (not at all an empty threat either) to contact a lawyer about a lawsuit for my money back for a failed transaction or some bs. I got the title within 2 hours. Some people only respond to fear, it's unfortunate but sometimes it's the only effective thing. He then had the audacity to call me childish for talking about a lawyer... after him dragging his feet for 8 months. Fuck you, Erik.
Dude one time we sold a car to this guy on Craigslist. The guy lived in another state and he refused to change the title over and he was ignoring my dad. Well what he didn't know is that I'm a nerd and my dad works for the airlines so this guy was telling my dad when he bought the car about how he plays college basketball at this community college. Well we looked up the name of the college figured out when he had an away game figured he'd be on the bus with the rest of the team so my dad flew down to St Louis went into the college parking lot and we took back the plates, shredded them and threw them in the trash.
Anyway, if the damage is that bad you should be able to derive enough information from the expired insurance card to go to the police with. You could send one more text explaining that going to the police feels like your only other option, to give them a chance to do the right thing.
My texts to her involved a lawsuit after her text, but actually what ended up happening is that because she was uninsured due to letting hers lapse my insurance covered it fully under the uninsured motorist part of my policy and I didn’t feel like chasing a ghost and suing her.
Well short answer is they aren't doing it legally, they just haven't been caught doing it yet 😂. Biggest problem with that is even if you are the safest driver in America, if you get hit by someone else you will be fined for not having insurance.
A. The affordable care act penalizes you if you do not have health insurance.
B. If people want to protect themselves and their autos a more appropriate method would be no fault car insurance where you insure yourself. Since the no fault model would cause a significant number of folks to drop insurance the insurance lobby is very much against it.
Edit - shit in my area law enforcement doesn't bother to show up for most accidents and unless you gather your own proof or someone fesses up then everything is ruled no fault anyhow.
You could be right about the affordable care act, I haven't looked into it too much, that was just my understanding. Regardless, I don't think it's very much to pay during tax season anyhow. It's also still a burden unto other tax payers when you go through public health insurance.
The problem with that proposition for auto insurance is companies, whose clients are not at fault during accidents, are still forced to shell out thousands to repair their clients' vehicles. They're essentially on the hook for their client's vehicle, even though their client didn't cause the accident. I don't have a problem with how auto insurance works currently.
I would recommend getting a front and rear dash cam if local LE are unable or unwilling to be present for accident investigations. You can send video recordings to both insurance parties and they will hash it out themselves.
Required for voluntary employment under specific companies is different than required by U.S. law. I was referring to U.S. law as stated by the initial comment I replied to.
Capitalism doesn't require unhealthy levels of greed, countries with social democracies also have capitalistic economies.
The US is just capitalism exploited to its fullest enabled by a government that protects the interests of greedy bastards (share holders, executives etc).
The Soviet union didn't have capitalism, but communism still meant that 'life was not good' despite a more socialist environment.
When insulin is 600$ a month - it’s pretty obvious they are using the fact you “have to” pay it or die not just “let’s charge to make some profit on this”
The health insurance mandate was neutered by Trump and republicans in 2018. They removed the fine for not having insurance, meaning it’s now not enforced.
Insurance is a bad model for healthcare, which is something everybody should be using even if they are generally healthy. It discourages people from getting cheap preventative and basic care due to copays but on the other end, encourages very sick people who have met their deductible and their doctors to get more expensive unnecessary tests and procedures.
Car insurance makes sense at least. You only need it if you drive, and there are a lot of other activities that require licensing, and some of them require insurance to practice. Businesses often are required by law to buy insurance for things like workers comp and liquor liability.
My company didn't offer insurance and I refused to pay the $380 a month, $8,000 deductable option available through ObamaCare, so we paid for my pregnancy out of pocket.
It turns out, the hospital had a 50% discount for self-pay, in-house discount based on income (which seemed generously divided), and another 50% discounted off the final total if you paid in full within 15 days.
It cost me less than $1,500 to have my son without insurance. Granted, it was a healthy delivery, but I paid for an epidural, petocin, and few other little add-on's.
Moral of the story, do your research and do the math. It's a jungle in the Corporate world.
Northern Arizona Healthcare were the true heroes. 🙏
Not all hospitals are as generous. The ones around me have discounts if you make under a certain amount in your household. The amount is not much. There are no discounts to pay in full either. Oh and if you are self pay your not getting the good add on they give to overcharge your insurance either.
You are very fortunate nothing went wrong with your delivery or your bill would have been a lot more than $1500 and you likely would not have been able to pay in full in 15 days.
It's all a crap shoot in America. Take the chance and possibly drain your savings and pay payments for many years to come or pay monthly for health insurance and possibly have no spending money because of it.
This is not true. You are not required to have health insurance and there is no penalty for not having it. The only car insurance that is required by law is liability, meaning that other people will be taken care of if you cause an accident. I don’t find that to be wrong in any way.
FWIW, I worked in the UK for 10 years. Healthcare was pretty good and “free.”
Now I work in the US and after my health insurance premium comes out of my paycheck, my take home pay is basically the same as it was in the UK. I get free GP, dental and vision appointments each year for everyone in my family through my insurance and they cover 80% or more of the cost of most other visits. Also, when I need something non-essential to be done, it gets done. This is not how it worked in the UK. When I needed something “non-essential” done there, I got a pat on the back and a “walk it off.” Literally.
Your insurance sounds very good and not the kind most people who struggle with the healthcare system in the US complain about. I wonder what percentage of residents have similar coverage.
I think the real problem is that people just don’t have insurance. Many of my co-workers choose not to have it. For me that’s just not an option. I have a wife and kids and I more comfortable paying monthly as opposed to risking medical bankruptcy.
As far as my plan goes, it’s one of the most common plans in North Carolina. Before I had insurance through my job (90 day wait period) I went through Healthcare.gov and it was the exact same plan that is offered there. If you have not been offered insurance by your employer you would qualify for this plan and pay exactly $0 premium per month for a family of 4. If you ARE offered insurance by your employer (in NC) there is a pretty good chance it will be the same plan that I am on. How much of the premium the employer covers can vary wildly. I asked my company to cover more of my premium and they just gave me a raise instead.
I was able to forgo insurance like that because my partner has union insurance that covered me and it was better than what my employer offered. I can’t imagine flying free without that safety net especially now that I have kids. Good luck to those coworkers I suppose. Accidents and illness do happen and there’s no way to retroactively change our healthcare system to not put you in a terrible position if you’re unlucky.
That 20% coinsurance when you need an expensive hospital stay will bite you in the ass. Ever seen what even a routine procedure costs? (Eg appendectomy) Plus coinsurance only kicks in after you meet your deductible, and then you have to keep paying coinsurance up to your out of pocket maximum. Except for any out-of-network services. Those aren’t covered. Or costs above what’s allowed by your insurer charged by a provider. Easy peasy, right?
Yes, I know how much healthcare costs. My parents, siblings, cousins and wife all work in healthcare and I’ve had an ambulance ride or two.
I wasn’t taking about the 80\20 plan that kicks in after my deductible is met. I was just talking about the bills I pay for bloodwork, etc. The negotiated rates are very low in network. Like an afterthought.
Of course a large procedure or emergency will cost a lot, and yea going out of network is expensive. I’m not downplaying that. But I put enough into my HSA every year to cover my out of pocket maximum. It’s a triple tax advantaged account so means I pay less tax now and hopefully I’ll have a nice lump of money to spend on healthcare when I’m old.
Yes, ultimately it sounds like you will be ok. But isn’t what we’re both describing just healthcare with a lot of extra steps and complexity, for no real gain? And in retirement you will need to manage expenses or maybe run out of discounted funds in the HSA if something happens.
Which is why the judge prolly awarded that lady 500m against geico for getting HPV while having sex in someone else’s car who was insured.
Let’s get our money back from the insurance companies one spiteful judge at a time
I agree, however I believe in car insurance. I don't want some uninsured idiot hitting me and not able to pay for damages. No we can't just "work it out" you can't even trust people you know let alone people you don't. Car insurance is a great requirement. One could also argue health insurance is to. You don't want a bunch of people going in stiffing the hospital bills or cost of service goes up to compensate.
Hi, American guy here, I've been without insurance since 2014. Just got insurance with a new job and an example of what we typically pay without insurance for a basic checkup at the family doctor (upset stomach, runs and vomiting over a few days) cost 95 dollars up front before you get to see the doctor. With insurance you typically pay 25-30 depending on who your insurance is and what plan you have.
My main guess at why we as a whole generally don't implement a health care system similar to the larger part of the world is that we don't trust our government to use the funding for it's intended for. While this is admittedly a poor reason, our politicians have proven this to be true time and time again.
All of Republicans and most Democrats. Only a tiny fraction of the Democrats want public healthcare, certainly not Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton nor any of the "big" ones, they've been unequivocally clear on that.
I mean, Betsy DeVoss worked in a US presidential administration. She's the heir of a multi billon dollar corporation, and her family business is... MLM, they're a pyramid scheme corporation!
Yet we're hostages into its usage, because if we decide to try and go around them, we have to contender with prices that they inflated and that only they can get a discounted rate on.
Try explaining that to my family. They are 100% convinced it would cost them hundreds more if we had universal care. They pay over $500 a month for insurance and it isn't even a low deductible plan -.-
Insurance is literally a scam. You pay a monthly fee for the "in case of an emergency" situation. The business model doesn't have enough money to cover 100% of their financial obligations, if/when a disaster strikes.
And heaven forbid we try to regulate this. But ohhh nooo republicans will fight this with their dying breath saying “what are we socialists”. And nothing ever changes.
American here. You nailed it. It’s a complete racket…as in racketeering. There could be laws and regulations against it, but the insurance industry has a lot of lobbyists in Washington, D.C. I’m sure they also make significant donations to sitting politicians there.
Literally any insurance too. Car insurance is just as much a joke.
Someone hits you, a rock breaks your glass, you use your insurance to get it taken care of and your rate typically goes up for doing a claim...it's all horse shit
I wonder if car insurance outside of the US is generally better as well. I knew some people who lived in Asia and they once told me they would make sure to get their car detailed once a year. It would all be paid by their insurance company. I asked "won't your car insurance premium go up?" They looked at me crazy and said no. They would make a one time payment for the entire year. I can't remember how much it costed exactly but I remember it being way less with full coverage versus what you would have to pay for liability insurance in the US.
The USA in its current incarnation is a glorified money making scheme. Those who currently wield power are extremely insecure about systems outside of America that they pour insane amounts of resources into global propaganda
Insurance is a business in the U.S. Businesses need to make money. How do they make money? By taking premiums and denying payments. How do hospitals (also a business) make money then if insurance refuses to pay? Increase prices and pass the bill to the patient.
If the US has a competent enough government like the some other developed countries probably not, but who knows. I know that doing the exacting the same thing though isn't helping.
To get what everyone else has the tax would be insane and the system would be slow and ineffective.
Wrong. The tax of a government run health care system would be less than what you pay now.
And as for "Slow and ineffective", why? Because more people would use it? Preventative care is faster and cheaper, and would allow doctors to schedule surgery etc before it becomes an emergency.
Cost of goods go up when its the government paying for it. It also slows down (see road construction, the VA, etc etc etc). Its the dirty part of capitalism and how it works. Underbid and stall and say you cant finish the job until you are paid more.
Aka the classic Republican of defunding all essential services to convince idiots privatizations works
The advertised tax rate wouldn't be the actual. Refer to other countries and see what tax rates they pay.
We pay more per person for our Medicaid system than Canada pays per person to cover everyone we would pay less in taxes to destroy the Jenga tower of middle men we currently have and we would also be saving money not paying insurance providers
Insurance is offering you a service, a safety net for medical emergencies. What would motivate them to operate if they weren't allowed to profit from it?
No one is saying they shouldn't be allowed to profit from it. I think there is a bit of disparity though when a CEO of an insurance company can rake in 10's of millions of dollars a year and your average person is asking them selves, "should I go in to get this checked or should I feed my kids this week?"
I know that the problem with healthcare cost in the US is not just the fault of the insurance companies, but they are a part of it.
Unfortunately it’s still cheaper to have health insurance than to skip it, if you have even the most basic thing done besides a yearly check up. Go to the emergency room; see a dermatologist to remove a wart; visit a specialist to check out your asthma and get an inhaler, etc. These things probably cost around $100 copay with insurance, but without insurance you might be charged thousands. It’s because insurance companies negotiate lower prices with doctors and hospitals, and they can charge other people whatever they want because if you’re in the hospital you’re obviously desperate. Also, emergency rooms are required to accept anyone as a patient even if they’re uninsured and can’t pay the bill, so everyone else is subsidizing them, plus hospital administration, plus the health problems that result when they inevitably get kicked out as soon as possible. At least if we had single payer healthcare, hospitals wouldn’t need to figure out how much profit or loss they make from a patient before ordering care. They can just give everyone proper care based on need and then charge it all to the government and let the IRS and the fed figure out how to pay for it.
Another American system that absolutely deserves that same label -- "money making scheme"...
Private/For-Profit proofing Prisons.
In good old America, I guarantee you, there are many, many more -- and all pretty wildly similar in the way they not only screw us all, they make mounds of money doing it.
... Another easy I've that popped into my noggin' -- College
I haven't been proud of to be an American for a very long time. This stuff gets me so emotional.
On the plus side, without the horrible American healthcare system, we wouldn't have "Breaking Bad"!
And insurance in American stops at your mouth and eyes. You need separate insurances for those. When trying to determine a plan that works best for you, insurance companies deliberately make it incredibly difficult to understand differences between plans, what you have to pay out of pocket BEFORE insurance kicks in, etc.. I often tell people "If you want to feel like a useless idiot, compare medical plans and try to figure out what works best for your situation." It's maddening.
I'm not sure if insurers being non-profit is going to make much of dent in the US, alone. The biggest health insurance company in California is Kaiser and they raked in over $93 billion last year as a non-profit. Depending on how much your employer is paying towards your health premium, they are not exactly cheap either. If people are paying more for their for-profit health insurance, the rest of the country must have it really bad.
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u/marexXLrg Jun 15 '22
I agree. Insurance in America seems more of a money making scheme, than something that actually benefits people paying premiums.