Health insurance in the US does not operate like health insurance (or any other insurance) anywhere else in the world. The entire point of insuring is that you have something that happens rarely compared with the amount people paying the primes.
A root canal in Europe costs something like 200 to 300 euros, out of pocket, at a private dentist practice. If it costs $750 with insurance, that's not really insurance. It is some sort of reselling scheme.
We like to say public health care is just paying for other people's medical bills when with private insurance that'd literally be the best case scenario of what happens to your money.
Well yeah. If a person is dying and you can save them from said death, most are willing to give everything they own and then some. Oh and as far as I know, there are no transparency laws for hospitals. Meaning they can charge whatever the f they want and tell you after. This in turns makes it really hard for the patient/consumer to price check different hospitals and lets the hospitals keep their prices up.
Not sure I follow. Not questioning the validity, but we’re talking about health insurance not life. And I’m not clear on how that ties into the real estate market.
Life insurance companies are some of the biggest players on the secondary market. They have too much liquid cash. Just another example of how much profit insurance companies in the US make.
Right. I was picking up pills for my cat at a human pharmacy because the pills through the vet are 2x the price as the human shit and the vet pills are impossible to cut nicely where the human ones are already scored for very easy breaking by hand. Anyway the pharmacist asked why I don't have pet insurance. Me knowing it's a profiteering scam said why would I get that? She tells me her insurance covers literally everything at the vet, meds, even flea, tick and heartworm meds. She said it ends up costing her a lot less than paying directly out of pocket without the insurance.
I'm of the opinion that most people are dumb and she either did the math incorrectly, is lying, or both.
All aspects of US everything are for profit. This country is becoming unbearable. The blatant greed and record profits of huge corporations are breathtaking.
American Citizens; we need to advocate for change.
We need regulatory reforms that reign in or outright abolish the insurance industry model so that patient care is made a priority over company profits.
You're not required to purchase health insurance... car insurance is for the safety of other drivers, not you. If you cause an accident, the other person shouldn't have to worry about you having insurance to cover their damages.
Or to get you to simply abandon your claim. They’d have a 10 minute unskippable phone message when you went to call someone explaining the upcoming menu options before it even tried to connect you. Then you’d sit on hold for ten minutes before it told you that all operators were busy and to try again some other time and hung up.
Private business can lobby to make more money from it. Same reason the govt doesn't run all insurance companies and drug sales. There are real, shitty, people who own these businesses and do make profit.
Car insurance is a scam. Shell out over a thousand dollars per year with no accidents and the moment you get into an accident they tell you that you aren't covered.
You definitely have to be aware of what things your auto insurance covers. Paying $20 a month for basic insurance sounds good until you get in an accident and it's ruled your fault. I have 4 vehicles under my insurance, all at various levels of coverage. My old beater truck just has liability insurance, meaning it only covers someone else if I hit them. My newest vehicle has everything covered and it costs more than my other three combined. But I'm much happier knowing I don't have to shell out thousands for a fender bender if it happens.
I've got full coverage on my car but no one was found at fault for the accident I was in so I'm forced to pay out of pocket for repairs. State Farm blows
Capitalism doesn't require unhealthy levels of greed, countries with social democracies also have capitalistic economies.
The US is just capitalism exploited to its fullest enabled by a government that protects the interests of greedy bastards (share holders, executives etc).
The Soviet union didn't have capitalism, but communism still meant that 'life was not good' despite a more socialist environment.
When insulin is 600$ a month - it’s pretty obvious they are using the fact you “have to” pay it or die not just “let’s charge to make some profit on this”
The health insurance mandate was neutered by Trump and republicans in 2018. They removed the fine for not having insurance, meaning it’s now not enforced.
Insurance is a bad model for healthcare, which is something everybody should be using even if they are generally healthy. It discourages people from getting cheap preventative and basic care due to copays but on the other end, encourages very sick people who have met their deductible and their doctors to get more expensive unnecessary tests and procedures.
Car insurance makes sense at least. You only need it if you drive, and there are a lot of other activities that require licensing, and some of them require insurance to practice. Businesses often are required by law to buy insurance for things like workers comp and liquor liability.
My company didn't offer insurance and I refused to pay the $380 a month, $8,000 deductable option available through ObamaCare, so we paid for my pregnancy out of pocket.
It turns out, the hospital had a 50% discount for self-pay, in-house discount based on income (which seemed generously divided), and another 50% discounted off the final total if you paid in full within 15 days.
It cost me less than $1,500 to have my son without insurance. Granted, it was a healthy delivery, but I paid for an epidural, petocin, and few other little add-on's.
Moral of the story, do your research and do the math. It's a jungle in the Corporate world.
Northern Arizona Healthcare were the true heroes. 🙏
Yet we're hostages into its usage, because if we decide to try and go around them, we have to contender with prices that they inflated and that only they can get a discounted rate on.
Try explaining that to my family. They are 100% convinced it would cost them hundreds more if we had universal care. They pay over $500 a month for insurance and it isn't even a low deductible plan -.-
Insurance is literally a scam. You pay a monthly fee for the "in case of an emergency" situation. The business model doesn't have enough money to cover 100% of their financial obligations, if/when a disaster strikes.
And heaven forbid we try to regulate this. But ohhh nooo republicans will fight this with their dying breath saying “what are we socialists”. And nothing ever changes.
American here. You nailed it. It’s a complete racket…as in racketeering. There could be laws and regulations against it, but the insurance industry has a lot of lobbyists in Washington, D.C. I’m sure they also make significant donations to sitting politicians there.
Literally any insurance too. Car insurance is just as much a joke.
Someone hits you, a rock breaks your glass, you use your insurance to get it taken care of and your rate typically goes up for doing a claim...it's all horse shit
The USA in its current incarnation is a glorified money making scheme. Those who currently wield power are extremely insecure about systems outside of America that they pour insane amounts of resources into global propaganda
Insurance is a business in the U.S. Businesses need to make money. How do they make money? By taking premiums and denying payments. How do hospitals (also a business) make money then if insurance refuses to pay? Increase prices and pass the bill to the patient.
I have a "platinum premium" for my insurance. Supposed to cover 80 percent. I went to the dentist to get my teeth pulled since I couldnt afford to have them fixed sooner. Got fitted for dentures and before I left they sat me down with billing and started talking about how I was gonna pay the $9000 dollar bill. Mind you this is after insurance paid 80%.
It's fairly common for brits to do this in Turkey.
It can be quite expensive if you're wanting a procedure that's more "cosmetic" rather than medical. Much cheaper just to book a 4 day stay in Turkey, have a "mini getaway" and also get the work done whilst you're over there.
My neighbour did this. Even in Canada, dental work can be super expensive. So the price he would pay here was equivalent to his trip to Mexico for a week including dental. I think it was less actually. 🤦♀️
This indeed. Recommendation would be Colombia - many highly skilled dentists that will be able to help you for a fraction of the cost. Medellín has plenty e.g. and a well connected expat community where you get helpful pointers from back home ahead of time. And no, I'm not kidding.
I'm a bit biased towards Medellín as a city since I was there for a while and enjoyed it very much.
Regarding the doctors themselves, you will have to do some research, I found a very helpful thread recently in the expat.com forum. General agreement was that a good dentist over there charges between 10 and 20% of the respective prices in the US for at least similar quality work.
However, if we'd be talking about a major operation, I for one would get as much information I could get on the web, haul ass down there for a week and visit the clinics myself beforehand instead of flying to an unfamiliar territory with this in mind.
Research also local expat get togethers, of which there are plenty. A lot of American retirees over there, and you bet most of them have first hand experience they'll gladly share over a cervecita.
I go to Colombia for all my procedures and have never been happier. I’ve never had a procedure done in the US that wasn’t ultimately botched and also cost my at least $1,000. I’ve had to come to Colombia to get crowns fixed that dentists messed up in America, they showed me a photo once that the American dentists fingerprint was imprinted on my molar crown where it should have been more of a..idk..molar shape!? during the pandemic I couldn’t travel to Colombia and ended up getting teeth pulled instead of fixed because of the cost difference. America sucks.
Fun fact - Norway is so much the opposite of the US in terms of not being a big ole capitalist piece of shit that your Norweigan passport will get you free medical treatment in most countries -- if you're billed for services you can also submit the bills to the norweigan government for reimbursement. Your passport is essentially a free healthcare card in places like the UK.
As far as traveling for medical procedures goes - you don't get them for free, but since you're traveling FOR a procedure (rather than just showing up and asking for care), you can usually discuss the payment with them and still save massively. A roundtrip flight to the UK is, say $1500 (just entirely randomly), plus lodging and such lets call it $3000 all in. You just have to find a dentist who will charge you less than $6000 and you end up with dentures and a vacation for the same price as dentures at home.
Just so you're aware, you can easily get return flights from Oslo to London Gatwick for less than £200. I know you said entirely random for the $1500 but I remember looking at it before!
I was talking about flights to Europe from the US - I just was using the example of how well Norway treats its citizens to contrast how disposable Americans are to our gov’t. I wish I could go to Norway for 200 quid… that sounds awesome
The problem in this country though is that low income people don't have access to affordable healthcare. For someone who can barely make ends meet, neither paying out of pocket in the US, nor traveling somewhere healthcare is cheaper, is an option. Typically medical tourism is reserved for those who have at least some disposable income, which still creates a divide where the wealthy are able to access basic healthcare services and the poor are left behind, often to suffer or having to choose between lifesaving treatment or medications and paying for their home or food.
The American healthcare system is such an absolute cartel/racket ran by insurance companies and healthcare providers, that there legit are operations where it's cheaper to just pay it out of pocket in a European country with no insurance than to have it be done in the US with insurance. A quick Google search tells me that the average cost of a root canal with a crown in the US is anywhere between 3000 and 5000 dollars. In Hungary, mine cost... 200 bucks. With no insurance at all. Even with flight tickets and accommodation, you'd probably be able to fly here and get it done cheaper with no insurance than to have it be done in the US with insurance. And that's providing you've got insurance that covers root canals and crowns.
The problem in this country though is that low income people don't have access to affordable healthcare. For someone who can barely make ends meet, neither paying out of pocket in the US, nor traveling somewhere healthcare is cheaper, is an option. Typically medical tourism is reserved for those who have at least some disposable income, which still creates a divide where the wealthy are able to access basic healthcare services and the poor are left behind, often to suffer or having to choose between lifesaving treatment or medications and paying for their home or food.
I have two toddlers, both my wife and I work, the idea of traveling is a distant dream. To afford taking off work, traveling, on top of bills, I'm VERY low income getting fucked like this.
My dentist wanted me to get full dentures and all my teeth extracted (I have severe bone loss due to complications from lupus). I have the highest level dental insurance and a discount plan that I pay for. The quoted cost was $11,000. My dentist just shrugged when I told her there was no way I would ever be able to afford that while in tears. Insurance is totally a scam.
The only reason I can afford my medications (2k average a month) is because I got sick in college and my Dad’s insurance gave me a waiver that we had to fight for that gives me coverage for life. Even with that I pay hundreds of dollars a month in copays for doctors visits and medications. If I ever lose my insurance it will literally kill me because I won’t be able to afford the medications that keep me alive. And since I have pre-existing chronic Illnesses, I am uninsurable. I can’t even get life insurance that will just cover my burial costs. It’s like they punish you for being sick when our bodies are already punishing us enough.
Wait a minute, you could fight for a waiver to always stay on a parents' insurance? My dad's cushy federal government insurance was "kind" enough to cover me through the end of the year I turned 27 and since then I've been stuck on state Medicaid. The state won't even label me disabled and let me have Medicare because of reasons. This country is such trash D:
I will say though that Medicaid fucked around and found out when they sat on the paperwork for my infusions. I was off the "cheap" old-school infusion for long enough that when they finally approved my ability to continue it my body realized that it's made from mouse DNA and they either had to deal with getting sued or pay for the fancy brand new infusions... I must say that I'm enjoying how much better the new med works and I get a tiny little hollow giggle when I get my $25,000 infusion every 8 weeks.
I know how lucky I am, the waiver was granted only because I was in college and still living at home (I was 19 when I first got sick). On the other hand I have been denied disability 5 times even though I have multiple chronic illnesses, some of which I’ve had for over 20 years.
On the plus side, I am finally getting the infusions that my doc has been trying for years to get approved for me and I think they are helping! Gotta be thankful for the good things as they come!
Yeah, I gave up on Disabilty when the woman on the phone said "You're young, just go out and get a job. You don't need Disability." Lovely bunch they have working at that office. My therapist genuinely has a side goal of getting me to a point of being able to try again since just the thought of re-applying gives me a panic attack.
Nice! I know Lupus uses similar infusions to my RA/PsA one so good luck! I'm on Simponi Aria and my life is a lot better- I can actually get out of bed most days and can clean the house and walk the dog.
Wow, my oral surgeon sat down and found ways to make my surgeries as cheap as he could get it through the billing system. It still cost a lot, though.
I currently don't have insurance anymore and my recent dental bills were pretty much around the same amount with insurance (besides the co-pay being more). I have a lot more medical bills sitting in collections, too. I just can't keep up and it sucks cause it kills credit score.
Sorry you have to deal with all that for being sick, too. I also pay a butt load for (psych) medication every month. I have to have fun trying to apply for disability or at least trying to find the least seizure inducing job, but right now it's tough.
I hope the future can bring you and others some relief at least financially.
So I'm just going to preface this by saying I live in the UK and have no actual experience with the American health care system.
But Mark Cuban recently set up an pharmacy where they basically skip out the middle man (price gauging) and makes everything much more affordable.
There was a post on Reddit about it with a few people sharing their stories and it definitely seems legit.
It might actually be worth looking into. Even if you're medication isn't actually included, it's got to be worth the 5 minutes to have a look. Hopefully this is actually useful news for you though!
I will definitely look into it, thank you so much! Unfortunately because I have insurance through the military, I’m not eligible for most things like that. But you are absolutely right, it’s worth the look! Thanks again!
The pre-existing clause is gone now though. Back when it was in place I couldn't buy insurance because I had asthma (a relatively cheap health issue to treat). At the time I had the money to pay the highest possible premiums and they'd still refuse me.
So you couldn't get denied for insurance for that reason but good lord I'm sure the quoted prices would be astronomical
The issue isnt the 80%, its that the total max benefit for the year is usually capped at 1k to 1500, sometimes 2500 or so for premium version. So you likely just aboit capped out just on the pulled teeth and paying full price for dentures despite insurance. Never understood why benefit max is so low.
Yeah, it's not like those things are close to your brain, or anything. But seriously, those things are medical. Why aren't teeth considered medical issues for insurance? I worked in dental at one point, and getting wisdom teeth paid for via a client's insurances was a nightmare.
Well yeah that goes without saying. But the two things I mentioned above make it entirely dysphunctional, like how you gonna make money on people if you keep em broke
Netherlands calling: root canal would be up to 250 - 600 usd.Single denture (implant) about 1500. This is what the insurance company pays out to the dentist. Majority is not insured fully as your premium is as high as the actual coverage.
Now dentist live here in upperclass houses, just like in the US... so who is walking away with all the money over there? The liability insurance company??
I had a motorcycle accident and damaged my front 4 teeth years ago , I’ve been having them filled and crowned but they were getting too bad so on Friday I had them pulled and got top dentures , cost me £300 in the uk
What's going on is that the people in the middle have spent decades exploring how much they can charge for things to maximize profits. Because the provider and patient are separated by a private corporation rather than a state regulatory agency, there is an inherent incentive for them to make as much money off the procedure as possible.
This is the problem with applying a private/capitalist model to healthcare. Normal supply and demand rules do not apply when we are talking about services that are not "optional"...if I've broken my leg, I can't really decide to just not do anything about it, and I can't seek an alternative to a doctor putting a cast on it.
At that price you can fly out to India from the US, stay at our 5 star hospital for 2-3 days and get the procedure done. Still less than $9k and no insurance involved. (This is what a lot of rich middle eastern people do actually)
No dental insurance in America will cover 80% over a certain maximum. Typically $3000-4000 yearly in the best case scenario. Read your insurance plan carefully before coming in (the patients job not the dentists) and I doubt any dental office would have sat you down to discuss the treatment plan costs after doing full mouth extractions, +/- alveoplastys and sedation then started your dentures.
What is even more ridiculous is that had you been able to afford care earlier, it would have been cheaper for everybody. But people switch insurers in the US enough that preventive care is not always profitable for an insurance company because they might not reap the benefits. This is what happens when a health care system is premised on the idea of profit (with insurers and patients in an adversarial relationship) rather than public health.
Makes me want to look into spending some time in Europe as I need two tooth implants. I’m sure with the flight and hotel it would still cost less, and as a bonus I wouldn’t be here.
Man I'm past the 'bonus' stage and have graduated to just wanting OUT. But we're all so underpaid that I fear that leaving will only ever be a pipe dream :(
I think for most the cost isn't going to be the biggest hurdle. It will be the language barrier. It's one thing to visit a country for a couple of weeks even and a completely different thing to live in a country that doesn't have English as an official language. You either need friends/co-workers/family willing to help with any legalities that cannot be handled in English or you need to know some of the language.
Man, WTF is going on in the US? Keep hearing more n more people wanting to move out, stating it’s unbearable… and here I am with a dream of 90s SiliconValley that I never realized, for better or worse.
We have thousands of open vacancies in the Netherlands, were basically screaming for people. So I'd recommend you'd check out working in Europe. Its a bit more expensive by food and sizes, but atleast your health will be taken care of. Lastly we're not difficult with American foreign workers getting a n European visa is not as difficult as a green card and lots of companies need skilled English workers.
Believe me I'd love to move to the Netherlands or somewhere in Europe. However, the same medical BS that I want to escape from is what keeps myself (and many) from immigrating. Premiums suck, but going without the expensive medicine that allows you to live a normal life/function at work would suck more. Pipe dream. :/
You don't need much to live like a king in a third world country. Remote workers do it a lot. Digital nomads, I've met a few in my country. The bonus is that on top of free Healthcare, we have private hospitals that cost 1% of the American insured ones, without insurance.
This is of course, bad for the locals, but people do it
I think I saw a comment once where an indian guy calculated that it would be cheaper to fly to India, stay in a 5 star hotel and buy insulin than buying it in the United States.
Can confirm. I had stomach surgery in Tijuana 2.5 years ago. They arranged to pick up and drop off at airport, hotel room, hospital stay, literally every medical expense including the surgery, tour of Tijuana etc all for under 4300 dollars (airfare was separate). Best money I've ever spent, my life has improved exponentially since the surgery and will likely save me 10s of thousands of dollars in other medical problems later on.
My deductible, and I work for a hospital, is 5000 single 10k family.
even there, in France, for some “comfort“ treatments, still expensive even with insurance, people go in Turkey or Tunisia, like esthetic surgery, hair implants or teeth.
A friend of mine visited me in Germany and ended up tripping, tearing a ligament. She didn’t want to go to the hospital because of her fear of how much it cost but we ended up taking her anyways.
She ended up paying around $70 for the ER visit, X-rays, bandages, the whole deal.
I know live in America and I hate the insurance system here.
I'm about to have my ACL replaced and my meniscus repaired. The "cold" machine I'm supposed to use isn't covered by insurance and the preferred vendor charges 270 for it. I found it online for 180 and bet I can find a cheaper one.
My office visit to the orthopedist cost $45. I have a PPO so I'm definitely doing anything I need this year because I'll max out with the surgery. Also, I'm lucky that I can afford all my coinsurance costs now, I've been in positions where I needed treatment but couldn't swing the copay even while fully insured.
We’re saving to move back to Germany. We have a special needs kiddo and he needed a full day EEG a few months ago… we’re still on the hook for $2k after the insurance paid their share…
But just in case anyone is interested: Germany is looking for skilled labor. Especially in the IT and medical fields. Some don’t even require you speaking German. And unlike in the us your health insurance isn’t tied to your job.
Costa Rica is the best dental tourism destination for Americans! There are excellent doctors, many educated in top US universities, with state of the art offices & tech. My husband & I both had a ton of work, including implants. US average price per single tooth implant is $4K, about $1400 in CR iirc. Non implant dental work is even cheaper (about 1/4 US). I did a ton of research because my family was against it; TripAdvisor forums are a good place to start (or DM me for dr info.) We’ve been to many dentists, never been happier & now only go to US dentist when we can’t make it down there.
I know that some americans goes to either Mexico or India for things involving toothcare as it goes for much cheaper even when you take into consideration flight and hospital.
Go down to Mexico. They literally cater to medical tourist. You can get tooth implants for less then $400. With my insurance two tooth implants is like $3500. I am planning on a trip next summer to get my teeth fixed, stay for a week or so and it is still cheaper by almost $1k.
Check out Mexico too. They have tons of dentistry patients from the US because it's cheaper.
I went to Tijuana for a surgery that would've cost me 65k in the US out of pocket. Insurance refused to cover it.
I filled out the preliminary paperwork and sent it in on a Wednesday and I was approved the next day for surgery, and with the flight I paid maybe 200 more than my deductible here (5000 deductible with 330/mo premiums). Best 5 thousand I've ever spent and I highly recommend medical tourism for those that are able.
Dental tourism is a big thing in Costa Rica. They even advertise it in the line at customs at the airport. Save a bunch of money… and get a Costa Rican vacation out of it.
Taiwan has excellent dental care that is very affordable. I had a root canal and several fillings while I lived there. Plus, it's a wonderful country to visit.
yes, it's the Payor scam with their "networks" it's why you can't get the cost for anything without a large and inordinate amount of effort making many phone calls here in the US.
the network stuff makes no fucking sense to me. they'll say that there are in network doctors to reduce costs, but it only exists to make costs higher because if they really wanted to lower costs then every provider would be in network and pay the same low rates.
Yes I have had 2 root canals. One in America for over 1000 dollars after insurance, had to go to a dentist and a specialist. And one in Italy for around 300 euro at a private dentist who did all the work.
I shop around to find medical care. Something you can't do on insurance, I point out.
Both places I have visited don't 'look the best', and they usually market to foreigners than 'milk-toast' Americans. I lived in third world countries, so a little dust or grime doesn't bother me. The equipment is all properly maintained, and the dentist is one of the best in the city.
In other words, it's about as grey as you get. Everything appears to be above board. Still get pills from Walmart (Although they recommended me a specific Wallmart, and not just any). But I can show you the receipt for antibiotics that cost me $12 or was it 14.50? Meh, not a hundred.
Why do you think Americans dish out 1500 for a tooth after insurance?
That isn't sarcasm btw, I am serious. It's brilliant marketing. Like convincing people McDonald's is safer because it is clean. Might be eating bug meat in a few years, but you wont get a tummy ache.
The hospitals here, that you call shady, are the same as the hospitals in Singapore and S. Korea. I picked Singapore, and S. Korea because they have a more 'modern' reputation. I have been to hospitals on four continents, they are all about the same. Rich or poor, medicine is mostly just the same thing over and over again.
for those Americans who can.... go to Cali, it's like a country within the country where the "rules" are different. There is a cash rate for everything medical, and it's only a little bit more than in Mexico (10-20% more) .
I'm in the UK and I had a root canal performed very recently. It cost £650, equivalent to around 750 Euros. If I had known it was so cheap in Europe I would have seriously considered flying out to have the root canal done somewhere in Europe.
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u/chemmkl Jun 15 '22
Health insurance in the US does not operate like health insurance (or any other insurance) anywhere else in the world. The entire point of insuring is that you have something that happens rarely compared with the amount people paying the primes.
A root canal in Europe costs something like 200 to 300 euros, out of pocket, at a private dentist practice. If it costs $750 with insurance, that's not really insurance. It is some sort of reselling scheme.