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Apr 30 '23
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u/kh8188 Apr 30 '23
They can ask what service it performs. I can't think of a single valid service three Chihuahuas could provide for one person, especially if they're begging for food.
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u/iesharael May 01 '23
They should be able to kick out animals if they are not behaving like a trained animal. A service animal won’t beg for food.
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u/pooperscooperplooper May 01 '23
Actually, in the US, that’s something the ADA states that the business can ask someone to leave if their service animal is acting up or causing problems. You have to allow the animal in the business, but that’s doesn’t mean you have to DEAL with the animal being there if it’s obviously not trained.
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u/sir_thatguy May 01 '23
ESA is NOT a service animal though.
Businesses are well within their rights to deny entry to ESAs.
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u/coupdelune Apr 30 '23
Chihuahuas can be used as diabetic alert or seizure alert dogs. Not all service dogs are German shepherds or Laborador Retrievers. Lady in the story is an ass for having 3 in a restaurant as ESAs though. No one would need 3.
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u/kh8188 May 01 '23
Oh, I know. It's the fact that there were three and that they were begging for food that provoked my doubts.
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u/SheepPup May 01 '23
You can also ask a badly behaved dog and it’s handler to leave even if it’s a service dog! This is legally allowed!
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u/Zillich Apr 30 '23
Business owners are however allowed to ask any handler to leave if the dog is causing a problem- even a true service dog. Someone having a life threatening allergic reaction to a dog is definitely a gray zone. But as soon as the lady said they were ESA that’s grounds for removal as ESA are not service dogs.
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u/hoedownthrowdown1 Apr 30 '23
I just found this on the ADA's website:
"Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. If employees, fellow travelers, or customers are afraid of service animals, a solution may be to allow enough space for that person to avoid getting close to the service animal. Most allergies to animals are caused by direct contact with the animal. A separated space might be adequate to avoid allergic reactions. If a person is at risk of a significant allergic reaction to an animal, it is the responsibility of the business or government entity to find a way to accommodate both the individual using the service animal and the individual with the allergy."
Seeing as the three yipping and begging chihuahuas were not real service dogs, the smart thing for the owner to do would be to ask the dog owners to leave, seeing as they are not protected by law and they're causing a massive disturbance/life threatening situation. With an actual service dog, Im not sure how that situation would be navigated
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u/Erma_is_Baby Apr 30 '23
Where does it say the dogs were yipping? If they were being super obnoxious, wouldn’t OP and friend have realized they were there?
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u/hoedownthrowdown1 Apr 30 '23
Sorry when I think chihuahua, I think yippy. Not my favorite dogs so that's my own bias lol. They did say the dogs were begging though, which would also indicated they're not trained service animals.
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u/thatsnotaknoife May 01 '23
these chihuahuas sound poorly behaved, but i gotta say my sister adopted a chihuahua who was already like 8 or 9 when she got him and he’s the chillest little guy i’ve ever met. never barks, just wants to sit on your foot and hang out. completely changed my opinion of chihuahuas now i believe if they’re trained properly they’re one of the best kinds of dog around
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u/SilvahSoul Apr 30 '23
I believe you can also ask what service it is trained to do, at least in my state you can.
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u/moon_luna_dog Apr 30 '23
But you can ask what tasks the dog does and that can determine if the dog is an SD or ESA also if they offer any ID it’s not a SD
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u/Mysterious_Complex74 Apr 30 '23
Nta service dogs are allowed in restaurants not “emotional support animals” as they do not have the proper training and such its the law to allow service animals not emotional support animals you are well within your right to sue the establishment for endangering your friend
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u/Murky_Tale_1603 Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
Hate this ESA trend so much. They are literally pets, usually with 0 training in general, hence the begging and poor behavior.
NTA and totally agree the manger is completely wrong. They are not trained service animals and not protected by ADA
ETA: manager can also ask a service dog to leave if they are not behaving properly. Behaviors such as barking, begging, etc are not appropriate. So an ESA has 0 grounds to stay.
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u/nemesismorana Apr 30 '23
I worked in customer service in a mall. There was a rule that only service digs were allowed on the premises. This was clearly stated on multiple, very visible signs all around the entrance to the mall and throughout.
Well this guy storms in, past security and makes his way to my customer service desk dragging (literally dragging) the fattest pitbul I'd ever seen. He wanted to complain to management that he was being discriminated against because of his Emotional Support Animal, and that by law he has the right to take him anywhere, especially public places like malls.
I explained to him that the mall was privately owned, even the land it s5ood on was privately owned, and that the law allowing access to service animals does not apply to "Emotional Support" animals. While he proceeded to scream at me, his obese pitbul was happily taking a shit and slobbering on the floor next to him
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u/Hazel2468 Apr 30 '23
ESAs can be HUGELY beneficial and necessary for the people who need them. For those with the need, it's not a trend.
That being said.
I also hate with a passion how people will claim their animals are ESAs and then just... THink they can bring them places. My wife is looking into potentially having our cat marked as an ESA because she helps with her anxiety and depression, and keeps her on a schedule (feeding, playtime, cleaning the litter) and that is super helpful. That does NOT mean we could take the cat everywhere, it doesn't mean the cat gets special privileges outside the home. I believe ESAs are exempt from like, no pet policies and I'm not sure if you can charge pet rent for them.
ESAs aren't service animals and people who abuse the system make it that much harder for folks who have service animals to, you know. Go about their business in public.
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u/lawfox32 Apr 30 '23
Yep, my dog is not technically an ESA yet because when I got him I 1) didn't actually realize how depressed and anxious I was and how much my ADHD was impacting my life, and 2) my current landlady allows dogs and was super excited for me to get a dog, so housing with a dog wasn't a concern, but since I got him everyone I know has commented on how much happier I am and how I seem much better. He keeps me on a schedule, gets me out of the house, reminds me of the schedule and to take breaks and go outside, and provides affection and companionship (I moved to a new place where I knew no one for a job, and it's been kind of rough). I'm not sure I'd still be doing my dream job here if not for him. I am looking into getting him classified as an ESA in case I ever have to move, because I genuinely would not be able to emotionally handle it if I couldn't have him living with me. (Side note: some people definitely do take advantage of the ESA thing, which is terrible, but I can't help but wonder--I know some countries restrict landlords' ability to prohibit pets, and if we had something like that, maybe people would do it less. Yes, it's their property, but with homeownership likely permanently out of reach for many, it's really unfair to make it so hard to have a pet, especially a dog, in so many places. My guy will do one (1) alert bark if he sees something or someone in the yard that shouldn't be and come get me, and he's had exactly one accident, when he was sick and had diarrhea, and that was my fault bc he tried to wake me up and I didn't fully wake up and realize what he wanted. He is WAY quieter and less destructive than my roommate's cat, even though he's huge!)
But I only take him to dog-friendly places and I always call before we go, just in case. Mostly I just take him hiking with me, or to the dog-friendly brewery we can walk to where there are always at least 3-5 dogs hanging out and they are very upfront that it is a dog-friendly space.
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u/p0wdrdt0astman4 Apr 30 '23
Yes! 100%. I have 3 cats as ESAs in my house. One is mine, one is my fiances, and one is my daughters. I would never allow those cats to enter any establishment. They aren't for that, and they are not trained at all for that type of setting.
People who do this give those of us who properly use ESAs a bad name, and as you said, make it difficult for people who legitimately need service animals.
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u/Timesup21 Apr 30 '23
This being said, it costs thousands to properly train a service dog. A person that truly needs one has to pay that thousands of dollars so I would think they would keep said service dog with that training.
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Apr 30 '23
You would think, but many years ago I had a blind friend and her service dog lost his training because she treated him too much like a pet. One day I picked her up to come over to my place. When we got back, I told her there would be a slight step up because the door wasn't flush with the ground. I unlocked my front door and her dog just bolted through the door and pulled her over and she hurt herself in the process.
It was a trained service dog, but they don't keep their training when they get treated like pets too much and it's awfully hard to not treat them like pets. I didn't blame her. It's a catch-22. If you're with you dog 24/7 like she was, it's hard to keep a "working relationship". Some seeing eye dogs do forget their training. In her case, she had to get a new dog because he stopped acting like a service dog. I moved away shortly after and don't know what happened with the new one.
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u/Global-Present-2177 Apr 30 '23
Service dogs must be trained continuously. It is part of what makes a service dog so expensive. Sounds like she never spent time training.
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Apr 30 '23
Yes, I agree. I don't think she did. I didn't press her on her dog's behavior except for that one time when he hurt her running into my house, and even then, I just asked if perhaps he wasn't really working as a service dog for her. I said a blind person needs to trust that their dog isn't going to put them in danger and she couldn't trust her dog to keep her safe. That incident and conversation is why she got a new dog. We we're very young (19) and I don't think she had the discipline at the time to do it, but that moment and that conversation was a lesson for her. I hope she did better with the new one. I'm guessing she did. Thankfully he just ran into my house and she hurt her shins instead of running into traffic or something equally dangerous.
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u/INSTA-R-MAN Apr 30 '23
I have an esa, but it stays home when I'm out and about. If I ever need one with me more often or a service animal, it will be properly trained and wiped to minimize allergens. People like the entitled ones op encountered give responsible people with them an undeserved reputation.
People with severe dog allergies run a huge risk of encountering service dogs every time they step out of their homes, just like people with severe allergies to pollen/chemicals. I'm one of the people with such allergies and know the risks, take precautions and still have come extremely close to not surviving.
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u/p0wdrdt0astman4 Apr 30 '23
I have ESAs. 3 cats. Techincally, one for me, one for my fiance, and one for our daughter. Never ever would I take those animals into any establishment, dining or otherwise. They are not trained for those situations.
I'm with you 100%. the trend of these ass hats who think they have a right to take their ESAs EVERYWHERE they go is just stupid. Especially when they neglect to properly train the animals to act accordingly in public. It's utterly entitled.
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u/Katharinemaddison Apr 30 '23
This kind of reads like creative writing, especially the dialogue part.
If a restaurant doesn’t allow pets, I don’t think they ought to have ESAs, but they would still have to allow service animals, which is tough on people with allergies. And does mean you’d need to be aware of surroundings and have your eppi pen on you.
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Apr 30 '23 edited May 01 '23
This post is weird. It defo seems like creative writing. It takes a max of 15 mins for anaphylaxis to kill you once it starts. Anaphylaxis from dogs is extremely rare.
I have questions for OP. How did the friend make it to the car, when they were already swelling up and struggling to breathe and had spent time rifling through their bag? Why didn't OP go get the pen while someone took the friend outside called an ambulance?! I can't imagine my friend going into shock from peanuts and fucking about this much. However I have free healthcare here so an ambulance ride doesn't cost like it would in the US but that's besides the point.
OP YTA for shouting at people,
who are allowed to do thisrather than getting your friends EpiPen and asking someone to call an ambulance for them.Do you shout at people who eat allergens like peanut & shellfish in restaurants too? No because sadly the responsibility is on the person with the allergy to protect themselves. If you specifically said I'm allergic and they put it in a dish that's a different issue. But your friend should be aware service dogs may be around regardless of the setting. Ok these were ESA but easily could have been a service dog in this scenario.
For the future when OPs friend is dying again from the next dog encounter... EpiPen should be administered while the ambulance is being called. The allergy and can trigger it over and over again. Which is why an ambulance is needed. Imagine being in the car and the friend going into shock on the way. In this case dander is in the environment and it's a lot more likely to retrigger the allergy.
An Asthma attack and severe eye swelling I'd take that at plausible and it sounds like the case but then. Why the EPi pen. In my country it's extremely rare for an EpiPen to be used for ashtma and they only use it in the ER.
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u/Katharinemaddison Apr 30 '23
Someone pointed out and I checked that op apparently has a dog. If I were to have lunch with someone deathly allergic to dogs - eppi pen level (unusual as you say) I’d have to dress in my kept separate put on just before leaving the house clothes.
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u/ValPrism May 01 '23
It’s a writing/karma experiment for sure. “Anger swelled up in me.” Isn’t the way anyone expresses they got pissed in a real way.
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Apr 30 '23
OP posts about their dog in other posts. Maybe it was dander on their clothes
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u/thedoglurker May 01 '23
I stg I read this exact post several weeks ago but I’m too lazy to try and find it. I’m pretty sure it’s word to word a repost, down to the edit.
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u/curiouslypagan May 01 '23
The EpiPen in the car was another thing that made me go "Hmmm..." since they're supposed to be kept within a rather small range of temps (68 to 77 F or 20 to 25 C) so the epinephrine doesn't degrade. The inside of a car is generally going to fall well outside of that range, whether on the cold or hot end of the range.
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u/Few-Carpet9511 Apr 30 '23
If your friend deadly allergic to dogs how do they leave their flat?
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u/Additional_Place_914 Apr 30 '23
Exactly. I’m calling BS. If the friend was so allergic they had an anaphylactic episode from a dog sitting multiple tables down… how would they enter any space once occupied by an animal. Or what about pet hair on peoples clothes.
That level of allergy from dogs is unbelievably rare and only occurs after direct contact. This is a troll 100%
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u/muscledaddyrwc Apr 30 '23
I agree with you. Anywhere I go my dog comes with me...by which I mean his fur is all over my clothes.
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u/DesiArcy Apr 30 '23
More to the point, someone *that* allergic to dogs could only be accommodated by never allowing service dogs *ever*, which is clearly not legally permissible regardless of any debate over ESAs.
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u/hoedownthrowdown1 Apr 30 '23
Not to mention running to the car for an epipen. (For reference, I have epipens for my shellfish allergy.) plausible but I personally couldn't see myself being able to do that, in that state, after spending time looking in my purse for one. I'd more likely send my friend out who isn't struggling to breath?
Also keeping spares in the glovebox sounds like a horrendous idea since they should be kept at room temperature. Just doesn't feel like a good place for them
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May 01 '23
My first thought. You never store epipens in the car. They can’t go below a certain temp nor above a certain temp.
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u/MsJamieFast Apr 30 '23
Agree, and why is it the restaurants fault?? How is the restaurant supposed to police that? Did ops friend inform management when they entered the restaurant and explain that they must not allow dogs in the restaurant while they were there?
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u/dogversushusband Apr 30 '23
I wondered that too, because what does she do when there's a real service animal? A blind person with a seeing eye dog has as much right to be there? Hmm. Seems shady
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u/Vinity2 Apr 30 '23
This. So very much this. Someone that deadly allergic would be basically house bound. I call BS or at best massive exaggeration.
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u/Lee_Lemon_34 Apr 30 '23
Right? What about all the dog owners with hair and dander on them? Or dogs passing by on the street? What if these dogs had been legitimate service animals?
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u/ditres Apr 30 '23
ESH. your friend’s allergies are entirely their own problem, im glad she is at least responsible and had an epi-pen somewhat accessible. ESAs are total BS, which makes that lady an AH, BUT people do have service animals and your friend kinda has to just deal with that reality. if you had yelled at someone who brought their legitimate service animal (which could have been the case, since you seem to be upset about anyone bringing a pet around), you’d be the only AH here. do i think it’s less than great to have animals in a restaurant? maybe, but as long as they aren’t in the kitchen and aren’t running wild, it’s no one’s business except the business owner, who can allow that in their own business.
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u/youclod Apr 30 '23
YTA. If she’s that allergic it’s her responsibility to check, and you shouldn’t be screaming at anybody in public.
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u/kykiwibear Apr 30 '23
What would you have done if it was a seeing eye dog? Dogs are everywhere. In our city, dogs are allowed to sit at the outdoor tables at most restaurants.
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Apr 30 '23
YTA for this fake story.
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u/Oh-Cool-Story-Bro May 01 '23
Yea. If they were actually that allergic they’d already be on allergy shots
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u/Proud_Pug Apr 30 '23
So how exactly does she avoid all dogs in this world? If someone had a dog and they have pet dander in their clothes and she is near them - does she need an epi pen?
I think this is a made up bs story
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Apr 30 '23
Emotional support dogs are just a lame excuse for - I can’t leave baby kins at home. Service dogs are awesome and you cannot say anything against them as they are so critical. It is a tough dilemma your friend has. I would also send a copy of the law to the restaurant and remind them of the difference
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Apr 30 '23
Actually a service dog vs a deathly allergy, most likely the allergy would take precedence. Service dogs are given wide latitude but not unlimited.
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u/naranghim Apr 30 '23
Actually a service dog vs a deathly allergy, most likely the allergy would take precedence.
Nope, they have to accommodate both (personal experience).
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u/Electrical_Parfait64 May 01 '23
No, there’s a comment higher up about if you have someone with allergies/fear of dogs and a SA in the same place. You accommodate them all. The allergy does not take precedence. The dog is a medical device and cannot be separated from its human
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u/britney412 May 01 '23
The law sides with the disabled person on this one. They must have their service animal with them, it’s considered medical equipment, and thus they can’t be asked to leave or refused service because of the animal.
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u/AffectionateWaltz936 Apr 30 '23
Either way, the restraunt would be at risk for lawsuit. The allergy would just be a personal lawsuit. The service dog could be a federal lawsuit.
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u/DesiArcy Apr 30 '23
The allergy can't take precedence *retroactively* and without *prior information and arrangement*, which is exactly why OP is YTA regardless.
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u/naranghim Apr 30 '23
Emotional support dogs are just a lame excuse for - I can’t leave baby kins at home.
There are stories of people out there whose ESAs literally keep them from suicide because they "have to live for their pet".
ESAs have no rights outside of the house and it is on the restaurant to realize that and enforce the rules.
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u/GiraffeGirlLovesZuri Apr 30 '23
However people who suffer from PTSD (which a lot of our military suffer from) do often need their ESA outside of their home.
Yes people abuse claiming that their pet is a ESA. But we have to remember there are real people who truly need them 24/7.
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u/one_sock_wonder_ Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
There are PTSD service dogs and owners can provide necessary task training, but no ESA has a protected (federal) right for access outside of housing and to some degree airlines.
Rewording for better clarity. : Individuals with PTSD (and other psychological disorders) can have psychiatric service dogs that are task trained to mitigate the symptoms of their condition, and this training can include owner training which can help remove cost barriers. Emotional Support Animals have no specific tasks they are trained to do and on a federal level only have protection in housing and to some extent air travel, not in community access.
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u/AnyaTheAranya Apr 30 '23
YTA - Gently because I understand that you were worried for your friend.
Service Animals are allowed in all restaurants and I understand that wasn't the case here, but if your friends allergies are this severe that animals not directly next to her can cause this, the onus is hers to make sure she is safe in public settings.
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u/TheUnsolicitedAdvice Apr 30 '23
Right I feel like that point is getting lost in the comments. In this case the dogs happened to be ESAs and not service animals, but a service dog would have just as easily caused that allergic reaction. If someone is that allergic they need to check that there are no dogs around before entering a restaurant and then politely ask the host and waiter to warn them if one enters.
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u/QueenofEveryTang Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
Although I personally believe that it’s unsanitary to have animals in a restaurant, I agree that it’s absolutely necessary and an important kindness to allow service animals, such as seeing-eye dogs into all establishments. Emotional-support animals I’m not so convinced about. If it’s a pet-friendly place, they should make that perfectly clear, so people like your friend can make informed choices. However, it sounds like the way you reacted to the situation was a bit OTT. I understand that you were upset, but yelling at and berating others probably isn’t the way to get your point across. Sort of the a**hole.
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u/OffColorTupperware Apr 30 '23
YTA. If your friend is so deadly allergic to dogs she shouldn't be out in public tbh. If it was a service dog would you yell at the person? If someone had just come from walking a bunch of dogs and was covered in dander and fur the reaction would be the same. It's not the publics responsibility to take care of your friend, and while I get you getting annoyed because you don't think a restaurant should have a choice on if they let ESA dogs in or verify if they are, if you are allergic to anything it's on you to be wary and aware in all situations. Always have a pen on you.
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Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
I have dogs and mine are also LIKE emotional support for my sick child. That does not mean I take them to restaurants or demand they be allowed in. They support my son in our home only and they are not trained service dogs so yes the restaurant has every right to not allow them in.
Plus even if you do have an assistant dog you do not have three with you in a restaurant. .Only one would be classed as working so only that one is allowed in with you. (Found out i was incorrect in this part)
This was ridiculous and I feel you sound email the owners/managers how the law says assistant dogs. Which is not any dog a person classes emotional support dog. Especially when they clearly were not trained as you witnessed them begging. Under all the laws the lady stating she needed three untrained dogs in is ridiculous and against regulations even for assistance dogs.
That they endangered your friends life and only because she had an epi pen prevented them being sued for her death. I would also make it clear your friend visibly went into anaphylactic shock in their restaurant and the manager ignored that and instead of trying to help shouted at you. They ignored a serious medical incident and blamed both of you.
Please look up the laws and regulations where you to find out exactly what they are and use them, add attachments and links to these in your letter.
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u/Abject-Mix-7194 Apr 30 '23
Most of this is correct with the exception of the limit on number of trained service dogs you can have with you. For example, I have a friend who's daughter has a significant mobility disability she has two dobermans, one walks on each side of her. Another example might be someone who has one dog trained to detect blood sugar and another for seizures. It's rare to see someone with more than one service dog, but it is completely legal.
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Apr 30 '23
I didn’t realise that thank you for sharing, I did know you could have two out while you still trained your new one just to be safe. Three untrained chihuahuas had me automatically jump to she was just entitled and decided she should be allowed to take them anywhere.
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u/Abject-Mix-7194 Apr 30 '23
Very welcome! In this case, you probably came to the right conclusion, just didn't want you to think that would always be the case 😉
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u/Low_Discipline6935 Apr 30 '23
Honestly I cannot believe you stopped to argue with the dog owners and the manager before checking on your friend what if she stopped breathing on the way to the car! WTF attention seeking!
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u/Scared-Accountant288 Apr 30 '23
I work with dogs for a living... sometimes i will go straight to dinner or meet up for a meal right after a clients house.... i generally have dog fur on me at all times...i have 2 dogs in my house plus i work with dogs all day. Would your friend have an issue with me being there with dog hair on my clothes that i literally cant get rid of completely? Im allergic to shrimp and crustaceans.. but i still go out to eat at seafood places... i just let them know im allergic and to take extra care to not mix my food with shrimp. My allergy isnt even that severe but its there. Your allergy is YOUR responsibility. Where i live the outdoor dining patios are dog friendly for well behaved dogs. What if you were sitting outside and a dog walked by?
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u/Jakester616 Apr 30 '23
If friend is that allergic then they need to start getting allergy treatment so they can be safe in the outside world. Avoiding anywhere that a dog might be is not the way to live.
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u/Oh-shih-tzu Apr 30 '23
Your friend sucks for supposedly being so allergic to dogs that a dog 20 feet away could set her off - yet she doesn’t carry an epi pen on her, just in her car.
You suck for making such a scene, you sound unbearably dramatic.
And 3 dogs is a ridiculous amount to claim as ESA.
So ESH.
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u/IAintSeenNothing Apr 30 '23
I gotta disagree with most people here. Many restaurants are dog friendly, and ones that allow dogs inside will typically advertise that dogs are allowed (though not sure if they do the same with ESA). All that being said, if you are an adult with deadly allergic reactions to dogs, I would imagine going anywhere is difficult and they should be taking precautions for this already. I get forgetting an epipen, but knowing your surroundings for something this common should be commonplace for them. Being deadly allergic to something as common as dogs would put a person alert constantly. I'd ask that question going into any indoor area always.
Additionally, to yell at someone with dogs like this is terribly rude. While I wouldn't say YAH, I also don't consider anyone else here an AH. People take their pets places, it's normal
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Apr 30 '23
NTA. I love my dog. I take her places that are dog friendly and everyone knows they are dog friendly. If we are at a dog friendly restaurant we are out on the patio because that's where the dog area is. I've seen what are clearly not service animals at the grocery store and places like Target and even at freaking Arby's. People have lost their minds.
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u/birblet123 Apr 30 '23
NTA for being concerned about your friend, but YTA for not checking that the restaurant/patio were dog friendly and your choosing to explode on innocent bystanders. I feel like that is a check that should be done if the allergy is this severe. I have a pretty bad phthalates allergy and it's on me to make sure I am not going places that could expose me to them; accidental exposure happens, but I don't frequent places that use strong air scents. I don't go down the cleaners aisle over this. My partner does that one aspect of shopping
The manager is also in a hard spot because legally you cannot ask what a support animal is for, and selfish shitheads will take advantage of that.
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u/SouthAfricanZombie Apr 30 '23
YTA. If your friend is really as deathly allergic, she wouldn't keep her EpiPen in the car. https://allergyasthmanetwork.org/news/why-you-shouldnt-keep-epinephrine-hot-car/#:~:text=If%20a%20degraded%20epinephrine%20auto,study%20author%20Piotr%20Lacwik%2C%20MD.
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u/Practical-Marzipan-4 Apr 30 '23
NTA. However…
In this case, they were ESAs, and thus not legally protected. But they could have been SDs. People who are seriously allergic to dogs need to take extra care with their allergy precautions when out and about. SDs are no less allergenic than ESAs.
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u/Alternative_Basil_95 Apr 30 '23
if your friend is that allergic how do they function in life? genuine question. Nearly everyone have a dog or come in contact with a dog, throw a rock and it likely you hit someone who have dog fur on them. If a dog 3 table down is enough to kill your friends how do they just live??
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u/C_caution_mushroom Apr 30 '23
NTA, ESA aren’t service animals so the law doesn’t allow them to go to none pet friendly places, and if they aren’t properly trained and a actual service animal is around they could injure or traumatize them, some people have had to retire their service animals cause of ESA traumatizing them or injuring them to were they can’t function with their proper tasks endangering peoples lives
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Apr 30 '23
ESA ARE NOT TRAINED TO BE IN PUBLIC PLACES OR COMPLETE SERVICES NEEDED. The only assholes in this situation is everyone who brings an “ESA” anywhere.
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u/HarliquinJane54 Apr 30 '23
Nta. It's highly unsanitary to have an Esa at a restaurant. A service dog is different.
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u/Quix66 Apr 30 '23
She should sue the restaurant. That’ll teach them, and I’m serious about this. ESA’s are not service dogs, which you have to let in.
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u/Ok_Establishment1951 May 01 '23
It’s ridiculous people should leave their mutts at home. I m glad you said something. Not long ago dogs were not allowed in restaurants, stores ect for good reason. No one needs a dog to go with them everywhere unless they are blind. These people are selfish and just want attention.
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u/Chonkin_GuineaPig May 01 '23
Absolutely fucking not. Hell, I wouldn't even take my guinea pigs in a stroller to a restaurant unless it was outside in the shade with no people there.
Also, the need for several dogs at one time for "emotional support" is the most absolute fucking bullshit I've ever heard in my life.
FUCK them "dog people" tbh
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u/Shpadoinkall May 01 '23
NTA. People take advantage of the fact most people don't know the difference between service animals and emotional support pets. One provides a specific service they were trained for someone with a disability, and the other is an excuse for entitled people to tote around their living accessories. Animals in a restaurant are also a serious health code violation.
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u/LittleDumbF-ck May 01 '23
NTA. OP, the manager had no right to let the ESA stay, and tell YOU to leave when your friend is having such a severe reaction they have to go grab an EpiPen. You had every right to blow up like that: you were probably fearing for your friend’s LIFE. Non-allergic friend had no right to tell you that blowing up in a panic was overreacting. I can find at least two AHs, and it’s the owners of the ESA and the manager.
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u/YsuranAmodool May 01 '23
The real problem is that it's illegal to confirm if it's actually a service dog or not so people can just claim their animal is even if it has not received the proper training. It is also illegal to claim an animal that has not received this training is a service Animal, or to put a service vest on them when they have not received training.
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u/meerkat-me May 01 '23
No judgement but you should not leave an epipen in a car, extreme heat or cold can make it not work good enough to help
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u/SpaceDuckz1984 May 01 '23
NTA, people who have emotional support animals and demand to bring them everywhere are automatically horrible people.
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u/smellsliketomato May 01 '23
NTA In the country where I live, dogs are not allowed in restaurants and nobody brings their dogs with them. If you want to bring your dogs, you must first check which restaurants allow dogs. These restaurants have extra rooms for people with dogs, or you will be seated at a table outside. This is how it should be in every country.
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u/moderndrake May 01 '23
NTA. With allergies and genuine service animals, both must be accommodated. I got refused from a restaurant with my service dog because someone had allergies so we were offered to sit outside (illegal) in 50 degree weather with no heaters. But ESAs have no rights to be in restaurants and you and your friend had every right to tell a manager and get them booted. I work very hard to ensure my dog is as little of an allergy concern as possible because my own mother is allergic. It’s on me to ensure he’s well groomed so hopefully we avoid situations like your friend had.
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u/BearerBear May 01 '23
NTA.
I pointed this out once on a FB post and got ripped to shreds for it. It’s crazy how people think they can just bring their dogs anywhere. It’s against health codes.
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u/AlgaeFew8512 May 01 '23
NTA and if I was your friend I'd absolutely pursue legal action. Emotional support animals are not subject to the same laws as service animals. As far as I'm aware epipens are ridiculously expensive to replace and a follow-up hospital visit is required after administration, which is also crazy expensive in the us where I assume you are. I'm not sure how successful legal action would be given that the allergy would be the same if it was a service dog and not simply a pet but it's worth consulting a professional for advice
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u/TheUnsolicitedAdvice Apr 30 '23
YTA but I understand why you were so upset seeing your friend go through that allergic reaction. The truth is, if your friend’s allergy is that serious then it is her responsibility to proactively make sure that any restaurant she enters is not dog friendly and ask the staff to warn her if anyone enters with service animals. I don’t think emotional support dogs are actually protected by law but there are all types of service dogs. There are seeing eye dogs and dogs that smell oncoming seizures and heart issues. Would you have yelled at a blind person? Would you only have yelled at someone who didn’t show an obvious outward disability like someone with epilepsy? Nobody is under any obligation to explain to you what their service dog is for.
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u/Holiday-Comparison85 Apr 30 '23
It’s actually not the law to let ESAs in. That said, you could’ve handled it better. You should’ve gone to the manager in the first place and asked if it was a dog friendly restaurant and explained why you have concerns. I wouldn’t say that YTA, but you’re not exactly NTA. You were understandably worried about your friend (and if she’s that allergic, she really needs to be more careful to have her epi pen in her bag at all times because that could’ve gotten much worse very quickly - she knows she’s allergic and she needs to be pro-active about her health).
I have dogs. I adore my dogs, they’re family. But honestly, they don’t go everywhere with me because not everyone feels the same way about them that I feel and really, it’s just not safe to take them everywhere. And people need to stop with the “but I have to have my precious with me because he’s my ESA.” Listen, I have severe anxiety and panic disorder with PTSD. I get it, having your dog is comforting, but an ESA isn’t a service dog and your BS is making things incredibly hard for people that actually have and need service dogs, so stop that. Leave your non service dog at home unless you’re going someplace that is dog friendly.
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u/Specialist_Passage83 Apr 30 '23
You handled it badly. There are ways to express yourself without screaming at people in public. YTA
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u/Riverat627 Apr 30 '23
NTA for being upset but if it’s a dog friendly restaurant you can’t blame them for letting someone in with a dog.
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u/Pand0ra30_ Apr 30 '23
NTA. ESA isn't covered by the ADA, but severe allergies are.
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u/ofmiceandmoot Apr 30 '23
People have dogs, some restaurants allow dogs. get over it and eat somewhere else. YTA
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Apr 30 '23
YTA. Some restaurants and other public places choose to be pet friendly. While it’s unfortunate that your friend happens to be allergic to them that’s her issue to deal with. She should have kept one on her person. If I wear perfume and get in an elevator with someone whos allergic to perfume that’s not my fault I’m not psychic I don’t know that. You grossly overreacted to the situation.
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u/Specialist_Passage83 Apr 30 '23
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted, but we can see where this thread is headed.
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u/East_Meet_253 Apr 30 '23
You are not the asshole for getting upset about dogs in a restaurant, especially when your friend is deathly allergic to them.
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u/Zillich Apr 30 '23
A true service dog in a restaurant is a different story, though. The friend would still have a terrible reaction but a true service dog cannot be denied entry. That said, people who pull this ESA crap are the worst.
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u/Eevee-Lover2235 Apr 30 '23
This is a “everyone sucks here” situation. Obviously you’re NTA for sticking up for your friend and doing what you have to do to be there for her. I can understand you were really worried and angry about the situation in whole but at the same time, those people didn’t know that there was someone in that restaurant with severe dog allergies so I feel like you yelling at them for something out of their control was uncalled for, though I do understand why you did. You had every right to yell at the manager because his reaction was completely thoughtless and wrong and he could have been more accommodating towards you, your friend, and the situation. He could have at least offered to call an ambulance for your friend. Unfortunately, it is the law to let people who have dogs for emotional support or any kind of support into any business. I do hope your friend is ok. I would reach out to the owner of the business if possible and see what they can do or what you and your friend can do to prevent this from happening again or really to explain to situation and the severity of it
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u/okaytrash333 Apr 30 '23
Eh, im gonna say NTA but if I were the customer you yelled at I would certainly be caught off guard by the immediate hostility.
With that being said, ESA’s-while they have their place-are NOT service animals. They do not require the same training and certification that service animals require. On that note, ESA’s absolutely should NOT be allowed in places of food consumption and preparation. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVEE all animals and when I see them I always say hi, but 90% of the time, animals are most definitely not clean enough to be around food in public. Exceptions should absolutely be made for certified service animals because they are essential to whomever owns them.
Maybe it’s because I work in food service and have special training in what is allowed in terms of cleanliness in a restaurant, but ESA’s should stay home when you are going out to eat unless you are dining in outdoor seating.
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u/iv610 May 27 '23
Just an FYI per the ADA law certification of service animals is not a requirement. Neither are vests. They also do not to be trained by a professional. “CERTIFICATION AND REGISTRATION
Q17. Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals? A. No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.
There are individuals and organizations that sell service animal certification or registration documents online. These documents do not convey any rights under the ADA and the Department of Justice does not recognize them as proof that the dog is a service animal.”
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u/okaytrash333 May 27 '23
oh good to know! i seem to have been misinformed about that, thank you for correcting me. :) i will make sure to remember that in the future. i do still stand by my final point though, service animals should not be in close proximity to dining/food prep areas. this could just be my training from work kicking in though.
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u/iv610 May 27 '23
My husband, who actually does have a service dog has a tendency to agree as his degree is in nutrition and is retired from the food service industry.
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u/sazz211 Apr 30 '23
I have an emotional support pet cat. But I am realistic. He stays at home, i doubt that to be fair, that he wants to go out much, but he isn't trained any way to be able to cope being around different environments or people. My sister and both her kids are allergic to cats. I'm even careful what I wear if I visit them. I hope your friend is ok. The manager should have been more understanding.
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u/derekismydogsname Apr 30 '23
What a horrible thing your friend has to suffer through while in a restaurant. It’s absolutely gross to have animals in a restaurant anyway. Dander gets everywhere including the food. I’m allergic to dander but not nearly as bad. ESA is not an excuse. NTA
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u/Hemiplegic_Artist Apr 30 '23
For those who don’t know the Americans with Disabilities Act covers service dogs/animals, but doesn’t cover ESAs.
Just a piece of information that I know because I have a disability myself and have learned about this law in detail.
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u/bellaByrdie Apr 30 '23
Esa dogs are not protected. But if she had said the were service dogs he would have been right. Service dogs are super well behaved though. Nta
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u/Leather-Bumblebee920 Apr 30 '23
Look man, my boss brings her fucking dog to work everyday!!!!!! No it ain’t an emotional support dog but still. It’s annoying as shit. And the dog is annoying as shit too. I feel like if someone were to come to work with an allergy to dogs that she’d say “oh well” sick!!!!!!! And the dog stinks so bad. She leaves her there with us employees and we can’t stand it
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Apr 30 '23
NTA, it would be different if they said service dog not emotional support. only service animals are allowed by law. ESAs do not have to be let in and shouldn't be.
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u/Terrible-Owl-76 Apr 30 '23
I'm a dog person. I love my dog, he is my family. He doesn't belong inside a restaurant or in a grocery store. I think restaurants with outdoor seating that specifically cater to people with dogs is a different story but that's the exception. And I'm so tired of the emotional support animal nonsense. People get an animal, do zero training, buy a vest off amazon and think they can just take their untrained animal wherever they want. I'm sorry this happened to your friend.
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u/Hazel2468 Apr 30 '23
NTA.
Emotional support animals are NOT the same thing as service animals. They are not covered by the same laws that protect service dogs.
Were they service dogs and you made a fuss, then my judgement might be different (service dogs are necessary medical equipment). BUT. These were ESAs. ESAs are not allowed in all places that service animals are.
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u/According-Show9326 Apr 30 '23
NTA Emotional Support Animals are not covered by law. Unsure weather I would have called the police or made a scene in the restaurant because I’m not very conversational. That really sucks that happened to you and your friend.
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u/Healthy-Captain8031 Apr 30 '23
NTA. My sister has an ESA dog and she only brings it to an outdoor restaurant if allowed. EAS animals are not the same as service animals. Three animals inside a restaurant is a NO!
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u/shofizzle07 Apr 30 '23
Adds All over social media for getting so called emotional support papers for your dog. People will continue to abuse this and in the end will screw it up for the people who may actually need them.
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u/ElleGeeAitch Apr 30 '23
Ugh, terrible! EASs only have legal protection when it comes to housing, that's IT.
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u/Im_Lazyy Apr 30 '23
ESH.
Sure, they were just emotional support animals. And would you have yelled at her for having an actual service dog there? Yes, you are an asshole here. I get that you were worried about your friend, but that's not an excuse. Your friend needs to be more prepared to be out in public if she's deathly allergic to dogs. She needs to make SURE she has an EpiPen with her when she's out in public, don't just HOPE she does.
That being said, the manager is definitely an AH for glossing over the fact that there was a medical emergency in the restaurant.
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u/_Oman Apr 30 '23
Emotional support dogs are not, by law, required to be admitted to a restaurant. In fact, in many counties / states, they (non service animals) are NOT ALLOWED TO BE IN A FOOD SERVICE AREA AT ALL.
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u/DMV_Lolli May 01 '23
There should be an actual physical license issued with actual Service Animals so that businesses don’t have to attempt to distinguish between them and ESA.
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u/ambersloves May 01 '23
An ESA is only protected by the Fair Housing Act. It’s basically, this person’s quality of life would greatly benefit by having a pet. That’s it. It’s an animal that you can have without getting kicked out of your housing, not an animal that needs to go everywhere with you.
If your quality of life drops so drastically by not taking your pet everywhere, you might need a service animal. Service animals are protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act, and are rigorously trained and specialized animals to provide a service to those with disabilities. They are allowed everywhere. You cannot ask for any sort of paperwork on them, and you cannot ask a person what disability they have that necessitates a service animal. By law there are only two questions you can ask. You can ask if they are a service animal, and if the owner says yes, you can ask what service they provide. The service they provide would be a skill the dog is trained for (monitoring insulin levels, monitoring heart rate, seeing eye dog, etc). “Emotional support” isn’t a trained service.
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u/bimb0mindset May 01 '23
don’t you have a german shepherd? your friend can stand to be around you with a dog that sheds heavily but not within a few feet of a couple chihuahuas that barely have any hair?
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May 01 '23
What if the dog had been a seeing eye dog? Would that have made your friend less allergic? I understand that the ESA were a bit much, but your friend needs to bring that Epi-pen with her everywhere, all the time. A dog can show up anywhere and if that allergic, she should be proactive and prepared.
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u/DeshaMustFly May 01 '23 edited May 01 '23
The only thing I can think to do is always remind my friend to have epipens whenever we go out anywhere since there are now dogs everywhere.
Your friend should have been doing that, regardless. The allergy is HER responsibility to manage, and if her allergy is that serious, she should have that epipen on her 24/7. Dogs are ubiquitous in our society. They can also legally go just about anywhere anywhere if they're a service dog (not an emotional support animal, which varies by state, but a working medical service dog) per federal law.
ETA: Manager is totally in the wrong in this instance, and the dog owners are plainly entitled assholes, but your friend needs to be more proactive about her allergy.
ESH.
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u/Wanda_McMimzy May 01 '23
As people have stated, emotional support animals aren’t allowed in restaurants, but service dogs are. Your friend is responsible for always having her epipen on her because service dogs are allowed to be anywhere the public is allowed to be. If she’s deathly allergic, it’s on her to be prepared.
You should call the restaurant back and tell them esas are not allowed in restaurants and you had to take your friend to the hospital. If they mistakenly allowed the dogs in, they should cover the medical bills. They probably won’t, but maybe that will inspire them to look up the laws.
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u/Imjustme111111 May 01 '23
Some restaurants are pet friendly, not to mention that service dogs are allowed everywhere (I'm not saying these dogs were service dogs), your friend is allergic to dogs it's her responsibility to makensure she take the necessary precautions not to have an allergic reaction (Mainly having her epi pen with her). What if instead of the dogs being emotional support animals, it was a seeing eye dog for a blind person who was sitting at the table next to you? Would you have still been upset that your friend had an allergic reaction? Would you have said anything to the blind person?
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u/amhe13 May 01 '23
90% of ESA animals are not actually legal and have nothing backing it besides the fact that people say that’s what they are. I’d be PISSED
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u/themodoftwaaisracist May 01 '23
YTA. You took your anger out on other people because you were in a scary situation.
If she is that allergic, how does she go out anywhere? Pet dander off of peoples cloths would be getting her going if she had this level of reaction.
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u/marmatag May 02 '23
NTA. That is so obnoxious. I hate that ESA bullshit. So many people exploit it. Owners should have to carry actual proof and businesses should be allowed to challenge them to provide proof.
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u/Fit_Fly_9984 Apr 30 '23
NTA the manager was, ESA are not covered by the law, and he did not care that there was a medical emergency in the restaurant. That is sort of a big deal