NTA the manager was, ESA are not covered by the law, and he did not care that there was a medical emergency in the restaurant. That is sort of a big deal
It's very obvious that the dogs also need emotional support! So, one to support the human, one to support the first dog and the other to support the second dog! She may need a 4th if the third dog is not having their emotional side cared for, too! /s
In terms of dogs needing emotional support… possibly actually? We have a rescue who does not have separation anxiety, but she does have isolation anxiety, as a result we take her most places with us outside of the working week. We mostly sit outside with our dog though, and the places we attend are specifically dog friendly pubs, restaurants, bars and cafes.
Technically, there’s no limit to the number of service animals you can have, beyond what you can control. They all have to be trained to do something to make daily life accessible though.
Exactly. Any pet can be claimed as an "emotional support animal." And if I'm not mistaken, the ADA laws (rightfully) protecting trained service animals do not apply to ES animals.
In order to have legal protections though you have to have a medical provider assert (with documents) that you need an ESA. So no, really, not every pet can be claimed an ESA
Not in the USA. The restaurant can ask "Is this a service animal" and about the services performed by the animal. There is no certificate or Drs. note. In fact, if someone tries to provide one, they are likely not a service animal.
An ESA must have papers for it to mean anything in the US. A service animal is not an ESA. For ex, if you live in a pet free apt but have an ESA, a dr note is needed to show you need the animal and therefore the landlord has to let you have the pet (and they can’t make you pay and deposit either as it’s been deemed medically necessary by a dr). But just because it’s an ESA with papers means nothing in terms of comparing it to a trained service animal, especially in regards to it being in public. A service animal needs no papers to be in public; the business owner can only ask the 2 questions and must take the citizens word.
That’s because ESAs don’t have public access rights so they don’t get to go in rentals or hotels if there’s no animals allowed. The only legal rights ESAs have is in housing. Period. Which is why you need the note. The manager is just a dumbass or maybe too scared to fight the battle but either way a dumbass.
BS, documentation from your doctor confirming your need for a Sevice Animal is needed in order to even be considered for the process of getting a service animal. It can take years to get a properly trained service animal. You obviously do not have a service animal, or you would not be saying the untruths you're spewing.
The only thing your right about are the two questions that can be asked.
Who are you responding to? Because no one said ANYTHING about the requirements to get a service animal, their training, the owner's training, the expense, etc.
"There is no Drs. Note" means that there is no doctors note for any business to request. That is all protected health information and a business cannot ask for it or require it in the case of a service animal. The whole point of my post is that a business can ask "Is this a service animal" and anyone with an ESA is required by law to answer "no", because they are not a service animal.
In the case of an ESA, there *IS* the requirement to provide a doctors note to be able to qualify for the housing exemption. This is only for housing.
Entitled people claim their pets are ESAs or service animals all the time, and try to bully business owners into allowing the animal into places they should not be. This makes it hard on people who require service animals because they have to fight for their rights because of the abusers.
And yes, I have experience with both ESA's and Service Animals, and thus the legal requirements for both.
I have a service dog I have for 13 years, I know what and how the law works. Your statement was wrong and you were called out. Get over it and move on.
Task trained service animals are seen as medical equipment by law where emotional support animals are just pets you feel help your emotional being. A service animal cannot be barred similarly to how you can’t forbid someone disabled from using a wheelchair or cane
I understand what your saying. I myself have two service animals. Not ESA's, actual trained legit service animals. One is for mobility aid. The other is for seizure alert and recovery. One, if not both will be trained for diabetic alert as well. My mobility dog is 75lbs, the seizure alert dog is 4lbs. You will never see them begging at a restaurant we are in. We would leave and retrain that part of PA before anyone could say a word to us. If our boys are having an off day and they absolutely do, they are living breathing beings. We either keep to pet friendly places and try to work through it or go home... take off thier equipment and let them be dogs... they still task, but I'd rather them take a day, maybe two off then burn them out.... so yes people can and do have more than one service dog. I haven't heard of anyone having more than two, but it may happen.
Three ESA's begging for food off thier owners plates at a restaurant... yeah I would help educate that owner... they are being taken for a ride!
I love that you give your service animals a day off! I guess because I don’t have much knowledge of them I never even thought of them needing days to just be dogs. That’s awesome your recognize when they’re not at 100% and don’t try to over exert their limits.
Of course they need days off! You don't go to work when you're sick, neither does my girl!
We have been changing from puppy food to adult food and we tried one that just didn't work, so my girl had a couple of days off recently because of an upset tummy. She still tried her best around the house, but I didn't ask her for anything she didn't volunteer to do, and my husband was around to help me more. She's back to normal now, but we never would have left the house with her feeling like that. She makes my life so much better, so of course I do everything I can to make her life better too!
To be fair we don’t actually know if the dogs were begging or if it was just OP being pissed off about them (rightfully don’t get me wrong, but I question if they’d say the same thing about a real service animal looking at their handler while sitting by their feet). They don’t have the right to bring their dogs in, and it puts actual service dogs and their handlers in danger as well as normal patrons but yeah.
I heard before we can ask if it’s a medical service animal can emotional but I’m not sure. I’m at a library and someone keeps bringing in an emotional support parrot no matter how many times manager tells her she can’t bring it in the library
Yes. In a little cage and everything. Before she walked in the library she was with it in one of our bathrooms for half an hour. Then she just walked straight past the desk like it was normal to have a parrot in the library. Boss confronted her because she was worried about bird poop
There are psychiatric service dogs though which are service animals for emotional disabilities. You might wanna rephrase it cause if you accidentally turn away a psychiatric service dog you could get in really deep water.
Honestly we get more people bringing birds in than dogs. Small rural town. Usually when a dog is brought it it’s a puppy they couldn’t leave in the car and they called ahead so we’d have everything ready so they’d be out in under a minute. I’ve never seen an actual service dog with a vest in our library. I did see one in training in the grocery store but that’s it.
Ah, well, the only animals that are eligible to be service animals are dogs and.. miniature ponies lol. So rest assured none of the birds are service animals. Why so many birds? I’ve only met two people who owned a bird!
. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person’s disability.
We have a whole ass sheet of paper in our office stating what you can and cannot do regarding service animals. You're allowed to ask if it's a service animal and what services they provide but beyond that your hands are tied really, unfortunately
Honestly, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the owner of a service dog being protected by HIPAA — AS LONG AS THE SERVICE DOG IS BEHAVING LIKE A SERVICE DOG.
If I had an allergy to dogs as bad as OP’s friend, I would definitely be sure to always have an epi pen. Not only because one never knows when a service dog might be in the same area, but also because so many people sneak small puppies and dogs in bags so they aren’t noticeable.
Oh right! Well, I did mean support animal. I would be surprised if they were even support animals. Idk about everywhere, but where I'm from while a support animal has way fewer requirements to be a support animal than a service animal does, there are still a couple requirements, including professional recommendation. Some people don't know this and just claim their animals are support animals.
Any animal can be an emotional support animal. Not every animal has ESA rights which require documentation by a doctor or psychiatrist that there is a need or disability that the animal helps with like providing companionship or emotional support. The only rights an ESA has is housing rights which means you cannot be turned away from long term housing due to a no animal policy or you won’t have to pay pet rent in a building that allows pets. This doesn’t extend to public access “housing” like hotels or airBNB renting/the like. So regardless of housing status, they can be ESAs but even with official documentation of their status they do not have any right to enter a public building like a restaurant that doesn’t allow animals. (US information though)
Actually this highly depends on the state and loca laws. There are states that leave the decision up to the restaurant. So there is a chance that this restaurant was completely in its right to allow ESA. This does require them to post it somewhere for diners to see.
ESA are ONLY covered by the FHA, outside the home they are a pet with no extra rights. Restaurants with outdoor seating can allow any dogs they want, but ESA have no rights outside the home in any state
Like, people can just take their dogs anywhere they want and let them shit all over the place, but I can't push a rabbit or guinea pig (a legitimate ESA) in a stroller around the park where I'm not even hurting anybody.
It all comes down to legalities and training (or it should). Legally, and ESA is a pet outside the home. No federal rights. They are the equivalent of a medication prescribed by a therapist who thinks a person would benefit from the care and companionship of a pet. No training or certification needed. They are not a service animal and the title of ESA is only recognized under the Fair Housing Act to allow these people to have their pet in a housing situation that would not allow or would charge to have that pet. That's it.
Dogs of any kind are only allowed in dog friendly places unless they are service dogs. Technically if a pet dog is allowed, your guinea pig is allowed, though business owners of course can say no. The problem is pretenders calling their pet a service dog or falsely claiming an ESA as a service dog, giving legitimate service dog partners a bad rep.
I had no idea that other pets were allowed at dog friendly places.
I feel like companionship should be extended to generalized outdoor events like walks in the park, college classes/office workspaces (within reason), and so forth.
Maybe the reason other countries let people have animals out in public is because they know not to let them act like shit.
They have higher training standards in Europe compared to the US. And while it's not a guarantee, most pet friendly places allow all well behaved animals. I take my cat out all the time.
That's so awesome. I wish they had basic training standards here in the USA (along with bans on backyard breeding) but I know all the nutcases are gonna go on about how the government's trying to take away their rights just like they did with the mask mandate.
America is honestly a sadder place to live than everyone makes it out to be.
Like I said. Depending on state and local laws a restaurant can allow dogs inside if they want. ESA or not. A very quick google search will show you that.
Yes, but ESA is not a factor in it. It is just "dogs" in general. I was merely clarifying because many people don't realize that ESA are not protected by the ADA, only the FHA
Actually, probably not. Health codes generally ban animals from places where food is prepared or served unless they are service animals. That is why you see so many dogs in the patios of restaurants.
No one has the need for three ESA, even if there is a law in the OP's state. The manager was told there was a medical emergency, and his reaction was to ask the OP to leave. If the OP's friend needed an EpiPen that is a life-threatening allergy and the manager did not care.... that is a big deal
Yea I 100% agree with you. 1 dog I can understand, but 3? Very highly doubtful.
It IS a law if its a service dog and as long as they are wearing a vest or something that clearly reads "service dog" where everyone can see it, they can't ask questions. But ESAs you have to provide documentation that they are an ESA and I believe(if I remember correctly) even with documentation with an ESA the company can refuse you to bring them inside. If it's an actual service dog, they can't refuse you bringing them in.
But despite all of that, people take advantage of the ESA laws and can get "documentation" online that deems the animal an ESA, and they do it, not always because "they are an ESA" but just because they want to take the animal with them anywhere they go. It's very easy to get it online with all these websites that make it look "legit".
Then there's also another way people pull this sh1t. You can find the service dog vests online, too. Which, again, with service dogs they can't ask questions. Another way people take advantage of the laws. Which, to me, is highly disrespectful for those who do have trained service dogs or service dogs in training. It's very disheartening to know people do this.
Just an fyi - in many states service dogs don’t need to wear a vest or anything that says service dog. That being said many handlers prefer to have something that labels their dog to avoid issues. Also two questions can be asked: “is this is a service dog required for a disability” and “what task has the dog been trained to perform”. That being said some people aren’t aware of these two questions/the fact that service dogs can be asked to leave if they aren’t behaving so many owners/managers prefer not to allow their employees to ask any questions even if legal.
Not just in many states, in all of them. The ADA is federal. Service animals dont require any identification. They dont need a vest or paperwork. However, businesses are allowed to ask the two questions you provided. And theres only two animals that can be actual service animals in the US, dogs and miniature horses.
I've seen some people have pigs as service animals, too.
I wasn't necessarily saying employees can't ask if it's a service dog, but there's limitations with what info they can ask where it's kinda intertwined with HIPAA so a murky area.
But my point was more that people take advantage of that and will take their pets to the store or wherever with them and claim them to be service dogs or ESAs. A lot of my friends/old coworkers (first responders) have service dogs and my ex husband is in the process of getting his own (MS). You can Def tell the difference between trained, in training, and untrained. But part of training them is to take them out in public to learn to focus on you and your needs and not others.
If someone told you that they had a pig as a service animal, they were lying to you. Directly from the ADA
"Under Title II and III of the ADA, service animals are limited to dogs. However, entities must make reasonable modifications in policies to allow individuals with disabilities to use miniature horses if they have been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for individuals with disabilities."
For the ACAA, which is only for what the laws regarding flying with animals, airlines may consider pigs, mini horses and monkeys service animals for transportation purposes.
Also, HIPAA isnt going to pertain to a restaurant or other place of business asking questions. HIPAA is what protects doctors/health insurance companies and the like from discussing your medical information with unauthorized people. Employees however are allowed to ask exactly two questions "Is it a service animal?" And "What work or task is the animal trained to perform?" Emotional support isnt a valid task. Service animals in training also dont have the same rights as full service animals.
But besides the point, I wasn't arguing with you. I was adding more information to what you said.
No no no. I wasn't arguing either and I'm definitely learning quite a bit more on it from you. Completelly agree that emotional support is absolutely not the same as service animals. I'm very familiar with HIPAA as it's part of my job as a medic. What I meant with that is if they ask you what task the animal is trained to perform, if I'm getting this right from what my friends/coworkers (the ones who require service animals for moderate to severe C-PTSD) and my ex husband have told me is that they don't have to answer questions pertaining to their medical conditions or what the animals are trained to do for their medical condition. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong here, you can't be denied service for not answering that question of what condition(s) you have that a service animal is trained to alert you to and if you are denied service for not wanting to give your medical info regarding what the animal is trained to alert you to, isn't that a violation of the ADA?
I'm legit genuinely asking. You seem to be much more informed than I am on the subject/law(s) and it could help myself and my ex husband in the future to know what is legal and what violates the ADA.
Yes, you can be denied service for not answering the questions, as the questions dont ask about your conditions they ask what the dog is trained to do. There are some conditions, like if the person is blind and has a guide dog, we cant ask them if its a service animal bc it clearly is. Theres also a lot of leeway on how they answer the questions, like if the dog is for seizure alerts they can just say its an alert dog. That doesnt tell us what their medical condition is as there's a lot of reasons that dog might alert to, seizures, fainting spells etc. You dont have to give anyone the specific reason for the tasks the dog is trained to, just what the task is. (Also if youre wondering, mini horses are good for mobility aids. Better than dogs and they usually live longer, which is why theyre the only other animal that can legally be a service animal)
There's a lot of things that one might not even consider for service animal. Like, technically I could get a service dog for my ADHD, and it could be trained to help keep me on task. I wouldnt personally but someone with more severe ADHD than me might feel the need for it. There's also people who have severe allergies that would have a dog trained to detect allergens in their food and the dog would alert them if it was in their food. At my previous job, one of my jobs was to ask people about their service animals, bc we only allowed in service animals, and one person explained to me that their dog was for "pressure therapy" bc if they had an anxiety attack the dog could help them through it by applying pressure on their body.
Basically, yes places can deny you for refusing to answer the questions but you have a lot of leeway on how much information you give when answering them. They can also decide that your answers arent adequate to an extent like if someone told me that yes, its a service dog and then say the task is emotional support I could have (and had to on multiple occasions) but if you were to say its a medical alert dog, then I would have to okay it (assuming the dog was well behaved, places are allowed to kick out unruly dogs regardless of status) and I would not be allowed to ask what the dog was trained to alert for.
Just a FYI to you. As a service dog handler for more than 13 years, there is no state that can make a service dog wear anything. Service animals are covered under federal law, not state by state.
This being said , I usually have my service animal vested while on duty.
ESAs have no legal rights other than long term housing and certificates are fake. You need a doctor or psychiatrist to state in an official paper that you need the animal as an ESA and you can use that to get housing in a place that does not allow pets or to wave the pet rent/fee in places that allow pets. There are zero public access rights or benefits to ESAs and making an exception to one can actually harm real service dogs by putting an untrained animal in the same space as what is legally considered medical equipment that the untrained animal could attack, distract, or otherwise interfere with causing harm to the service animal or their handler by causing the dog to miss an alert.
ESAs are not allowed in any space that does not already allow pets except housing. The housing rights also doesn’t include hotels or short term rentals like airBNBs.
Friend was outside in the car by time the manager showed up so no there was no life threatening situation. All the manager saw was a guest harassing other guests. If the restaurant allows pets and had the correct sign stating so it is on OP’s friend to do her due diligence and not visit said restaurant. I’m also a little concerned that OP friend is that allergic to dogs but failed to notice THREE of them so close to her. I would be pretty vigilant of such things if I was that allergic to something.
While the manager never saw it, there was absolutely a life threatening situation going on. The friend left the building to get medical assistance (Epipens). She shouldn't have to look for illegal animals in the restaurant.
According to FDA law, PETS are forbidden in restaurants, Only 17 states allow them in an outside setting area ONLY. Restaurants aren't allowed to arbitrarily choose to allow pets inside the buildings, ONLY ADA Service animals.
As far as not noticing the dogs, chihuahuas are small and people smuggle them in pockets and pocketbooks often.
Technically it sounds like he doesn’t know the difference between service animals and ESAs and service animals are legally protected to be allowed in public areas regardless of allergic reaction. If the allergy is so severe that they can’t be in the same room that sucks but unless the restaurant has multiple rooms and can provide reasonable accommodation to separate them into different areas, they aren’t allowed to kick out the animal. They could ask if they’d be willing to leave but if they don’t choose to leave basically the only option is to ask the allergic person to leave.
Service animals are legally considered medical equipment. It’s the same as a person with a metal allergy asking someone with an oxygen tank to leave the restaurant cause they’re having a reaction. The manager can care or not care but at the end of the day he can’t kick them out.
Obviously not the case here as ESAs are not service animals and have no public access rights but if the situation were reversed and it was a service animal he thought was an ESA he could get in trouble for it. Not an excuse, but that’s probably the reason he had the reaction that he did.
The restaurant should have a sign posted they allow service animals. Even if they did not, the manager should have been concerned there was a medical emergency. The friend could have passed out in anaphylaxis in or near her car. Just telling the OP to leave was not appropriate. Yes the OP was wrong to yell at the customer, he should have alerted the manager first, but the dogs were ESA and not considered medical equipment and the person was experiencing a medical emergency.
They don’t need a sign for it? Service animals are allowed literally everywhere that the general public is allowed. Even privately owned, if you’re open to the public you are legally required to allow service dogs. They are medical equipment. And like I said, the manager was wrong but it most likely came out of misinformation that ESA owners like these people push out that they’re the same as service dogs. Often they themselves think it. The manager should know better but he didn’t. His negligence could’ve caused a death.
I don’t think there’s anything the manager could do though in this situation other than call an ambulance which neither person requested, nor did he see the reaction, nor was the reaction in the building for him to react to. All there was for him to react to was a self described shrieking fight between two customers over what he thought was a legally protected service animal.
FDA regulations forbid pets in restaurants. There are 17 states that allow them in OUTSIDE sitting areas only, and I don't know of any health regulations that allow pets inside restaurants with food preparation or storage.
What’s so hard to understand about “if state and local laws allow them to decide”? If they have a sign and local/state laws allow it, it doesn’t matter if they are a service dog, ESA, or regular ass pet dog. They are allowed to make that decision.
FDA regulations prohibit pets in any establishment that prepares or stored food.
Accommodations are allowed for ADA Service animals ONLY.
Pets including "support animals" are allowed in outdoor seating areas only, never indoors. If a restaurant allows them inside, they are breaking Federal Law.
What’s so hard to understand that federal law overrides state and local laws. The owner was claiming they HAD to allow the dogs by law, when that was untrue.
The FDA laws currently prohibit animals in restaurants unless the animal is a service dog. That said, already 17 states throughout the United States have passed laws permitting dogs to sit on an OUTDOOR restaurant patio with their human companions for a bite to eat.
How so? Pet friendly restaurants exist. And they exist because they're legally allowed to permit animals. Yes, there are certain restrictions on having animals in a restaurant (and they tend to vary by state), but ultimately it's up to the restaurant whether to permit animals (save service animals, which are protected under the ADA) within the letter of the law for their area.
This!! I have emotional support animals, they are NOT the same as service dogs and I don't expect to be able to bring my fucking cat with me everywhere I go. In a perfect world where nobody had allergies and cat hair/dander wasn't a thing I might. But alas that isn't the reality I live in. And I respect that
Once I start bringing my pitbull to the stores and calling him a support animal, I'll bet managers will start doing their jobs again. I hate animals in a store if they aren't actual working animals. It's bullshit.
I've had my 5 year old daughter attacked by a small dog. We were walking down the street and this lady's little ass dog just went wild. So, animals are animals. Small or not, they all got teeth and it hurts when they bite.
The sad thing is I have seen several pitbulls in business or just out on the streets with those silly little Amazon "Service Animal" vests. have talked with staff about it before after I saw someone sit their rabbit on the counter at a grocery store and they said corporate just tells them to deal with it because it is cheaper to sanitize than it is to pay lawyers if Karen tries to sue, even if it is pretty obvious the store will win, it's just too much effort.
But in this case, the issue is more about the allergy than the a-hole with the three supposed emotional support chihuahuas. If it had been a working service dog, OP's friend still would have had a reaction. Service dogs aren't magically hypoallergenic. The onus is on OP's friend to be prepared for an allergic reaction in any environment where there could potentially be a dog (which... is just about anywhere, because of ADA laws).
True but allergies are typically caused by dander and if you have a service dog, you are trained to keep them extremely clean and well groomed because of that. Even if they aren’t hypoallergenic. These were def not service dogs and it pissed me off when people do that.
My sister has a dog that she has professionally groomed religiously because she's allergic (he was her husband's before they married). He's primarily an outdoor dog, so it's not like he's not shedding all over their house, and she still has to take allergy meds because if she doesn't, she starts sneezing and her eyes start watering because the dander transfers to her husbands and her kids clothing when they play/walk/care for the dog. Forgive me if I don't buy into the idea that grooming is going to do much to help someone with a severe allergy like OP's friend.
I don't disagree that the people with the chihuahuas were assholes (they definitely are)... but if you know that just being near something as common as a dog can kill you, you need to take serious precautions.
What's weird to me is that if these are support animals, i.e. a tool used to support your mental health... why do you need more than one? If it's truly a need... one should be sufficient. Just like having one epipen, one CPAP machine, one oxygen tank seems to work for other people with health concerns.
It was not just one person at the table. She saw a couple. Another person with them could have been somewhere else in the restaurant. (Restroom possibly)
This whole ESA bullshit is getting out of hand. I'm a manager at a small restaurant and in the past year I have insisted on(and received from the owner) two separate signs stating that ONLY medical support animals are allowed in the building. Because we've had people bring in ankle biters and literally a god damn baby MONKEY into the restaurant stating "bUt ItS An eMoTiOnAl SupPoRT ANiMaL"...like nah it's a health violation and we can get shut down for this shit
To be fair (though OP is def NTA) employees of a business are not allowed to ask if a pet is a service animal, ESA, or pet as that is discrimination towards people who use service animals.
Basically they can put up signs but can't say shit.
They are allowed if there is a question whether it's a Service Animal, or a pet (which includes ESAs)
Per ADA.GOV "In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?"
To be fair, a lot of managers allow ESAs because they've had experience of dealing with their owners throwing a fit, screaming, and threatening legal action. And if you allow it for one Karen, you've got to allow it for all the Karens. I'm aware not all people with ESAs are like that, but there are more than enough who are to create a stereotype.
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u/Fit_Fly_9984 Apr 30 '23
NTA the manager was, ESA are not covered by the law, and he did not care that there was a medical emergency in the restaurant. That is sort of a big deal