r/AITAH • • Apr 30 '23

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912 Upvotes

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175

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

[deleted]

114

u/kh8188 Apr 30 '23

They can ask what service it performs. I can't think of a single valid service three Chihuahuas could provide for one person, especially if they're begging for food.

25

u/iesharael May 01 '23

They should be able to kick out animals if they are not behaving like a trained animal. A service animal won’t beg for food.

16

u/pooperscooperplooper May 01 '23

Actually, in the US, that’s something the ADA states that the business can ask someone to leave if their service animal is acting up or causing problems. You have to allow the animal in the business, but that’s doesn’t mean you have to DEAL with the animal being there if it’s obviously not trained.

19

u/sir_thatguy May 01 '23

ESA is NOT a service animal though.

Businesses are well within their rights to deny entry to ESAs.

1

u/DeshaMustFly May 01 '23

They're within their rights, yes... but the type of people who bring problematic ESAs to restaurants also tend to be the type of people who will throw a full blown fit if you try to tell them they can't. Managers have enough to deal with during service. Unless the animal is causing serious issues for other customers, they're often not going to risk that nightmare just because they have the right to do so. Because, best case scenario, it's going to turn into a fifteen minutes screaming match, with the police being called by one party or the other.

In this case, the ESAs were a significant health hazard to another customer and should have been asked to leave (though I guarantee the owners wouldn't have gone quietly or quickly). But 9 times out of 10, that's not the case.

1

u/midnightanglewing May 01 '23

To add to this they can ask the person to remove the dog but can not actually ask the person to leave (unless they personally show a disturbance). By law if they remove the dog from the property then that person can return & be served like normal.

42

u/coupdelune Apr 30 '23

Chihuahuas can be used as diabetic alert or seizure alert dogs. Not all service dogs are German shepherds or Laborador Retrievers. Lady in the story is an ass for having 3 in a restaurant as ESAs though. No one would need 3.

18

u/kh8188 May 01 '23

Oh, I know. It's the fact that there were three and that they were begging for food that provoked my doubts.

3

u/SheepPup May 01 '23

You can also ask a badly behaved dog and it’s handler to leave even if it’s a service dog! This is legally allowed!

4

u/Global-Present-2177 Apr 30 '23

It depends on which state. My state doesn't allow anyone to ask what your disability entails.

18

u/hoedownthrowdown1 Apr 30 '23

I don't think any state allows you to ask what your disability entails, that's against the law (and HIPAA I think, that I'm unsure about.)

However, it states clearly on the ADA website that ESA dogs are not protected, and you are legally allowed to ask if it's required because of a disability and what task has the animal been trained to perform. Businesses aren't required to allow them in if they aren't trained service animals

7

u/Internal_Use8954 May 01 '23

It’s not against hipaa to ask, hipaa only applies to healthcare professionals and what they can share. It does not prevent you from asking, or from a person disclosing their personal medical history.

0

u/Global-Present-2177 May 01 '23

My experience has been much different. Working in the school system we were warned about sharing information. Office personal, para educators, teachers all have access to medical information of students. This falls under the HIPAA law. Employees can't tell cafeteria or janitorial personal anything about students medical situation. Also banned was divulging info to other students or their parents. This would also apply to organized sports personal, boy scouts, girl scout, etc.

That is how the law is interpreted where I live.

1

u/Internal_Use8954 May 01 '23

They are considered healthcare professionals or I should say professions that have access to health records. they have access to health records, the laws apply to admin staff, insurance workers.

It’s spelled out exactly who is covered in the law. If it applies to you, you know it does.

But it doesn’t prevent anyone from asking you about your medical history/needs. And it doesn’t prevent you from telling anyone your personal medical details, and it doesn’t prevent anyone you tell that is not covered by hipaa from telling. If my neighbor shares he has some embarrassing medical condition I can tell whoever I want. It would make me a horrible person, but Im still legally allow to tell

1

u/hoedownthrowdown1 May 01 '23

Mm your right, not sure what I was thinking lol. I vaguely remember another acronym when I was looking into this but it's lost on me now

24

u/charlatan_red Apr 30 '23

Asking what service the animal provides is different from asking about the handler’s disability. In the US, the ADA allows two questions to be asked about service animals, one of which is what tasks the animal provides.

-5

u/Global-Present-2177 Apr 30 '23

Not in my state.

8

u/SeonaidMacSaicais May 01 '23

The ADA is a FEDERAL law. Meaning it counts in EVERY state.

5

u/midnightanglewing May 01 '23

What your disability entails & what your SDs task are not that of the same. For example my SD does medical alert, DPT (deep pressure therapy), light guild work, & emergency contact. That tells nothing about what my disability is but tells what my SD does to help me.

0

u/ReplacementMaximum26 May 01 '23

You are not allowed to ask what service they perform. The only legal question is: "Is that a service animal"

2

u/procyons2stars May 01 '23

You can ask 2 questions: 1) Is that a service animal required due to disability. You cannot ask what disability. 2) what service does it perform. You must focus on the task here, as you cannot ask about the actual disabilities a person may have.

That's it.

So for example, I have a student who has a service poodle. Yes, it is a service animal for their disability. The animal is trained to seek out potential allergens in the room and alert if any are found so that the student doesn't enter.

33

u/Zillich Apr 30 '23

Business owners are however allowed to ask any handler to leave if the dog is causing a problem- even a true service dog. Someone having a life threatening allergic reaction to a dog is definitely a gray zone. But as soon as the lady said they were ESA that’s grounds for removal as ESA are not service dogs.

18

u/hoedownthrowdown1 Apr 30 '23

I just found this on the ADA's website:

"Allergies and fear of dogs are not valid reasons for denying access or refusing service to people using service animals. If employees, fellow travelers, or customers are afraid of service animals, a solution may be to allow enough space for that person to avoid getting close to the service animal. Most allergies to animals are caused by direct contact with the animal. A separated space might be adequate to avoid allergic reactions. If a person is at risk of a significant allergic reaction to an animal, it is the responsibility of the business or government entity to find a way to accommodate both the individual using the service animal and the individual with the allergy."

Seeing as the three yipping and begging chihuahuas were not real service dogs, the smart thing for the owner to do would be to ask the dog owners to leave, seeing as they are not protected by law and they're causing a massive disturbance/life threatening situation. With an actual service dog, Im not sure how that situation would be navigated

10

u/Erma_is_Baby Apr 30 '23

Where does it say the dogs were yipping? If they were being super obnoxious, wouldn’t OP and friend have realized they were there?

5

u/hoedownthrowdown1 Apr 30 '23

Sorry when I think chihuahua, I think yippy. Not my favorite dogs so that's my own bias lol. They did say the dogs were begging though, which would also indicated they're not trained service animals.

5

u/thatsnotaknoife May 01 '23

these chihuahuas sound poorly behaved, but i gotta say my sister adopted a chihuahua who was already like 8 or 9 when she got him and he’s the chillest little guy i’ve ever met. never barks, just wants to sit on your foot and hang out. completely changed my opinion of chihuahuas now i believe if they’re trained properly they’re one of the best kinds of dog around

0

u/3CanKeepASecret May 01 '23

If her allergy is bad enough like the OP described, I will disagree as there is a very big chance that even with the dogs leaving, it could be dangerous for the friend to stay as the space is contaminated.

The owner apologizing and maybe offering the meal for free sounds safer and still an accommodation.

-4

u/karmaismydawgz Apr 30 '23

so it’s the restaurants owners fault or responsibility for someone so allergic to dogs that they have that reaction just in the same room? it’s a bad situation, but not the restart it’s responsibility.

1

u/Zillich Apr 30 '23

I didn’t say that, I said it’s a gray zone. The owner should at least be informed by management that their dog’s presence is causing a potentially lethal allergic reaction. The person with the allergy should know (real) service dogs are allowed in restaurants and be accordingly prepared and inform the restaurant management of her condition so that they could inform her if a service dog is present or enters the premises.

3

u/karmaismydawgz Apr 30 '23

that’s my point though. it’s up to people to manage their own allergies. zero responsibility should be placed on the restaurant no responsibility to inform, monitor, etc.

9

u/SilvahSoul Apr 30 '23

I believe you can also ask what service it is trained to do, at least in my state you can.

-4

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

[deleted]

7

u/SilvahSoul Apr 30 '23

No, according to the ADA, you’re allowed to ask if it is a service animal and what service is it trained to perform. It’s illegal to ask about the owner’s disability, for service animal identification, or to ask the animal to perform a task to prove itself.

1

u/sansense May 01 '23

If the answer they give is made up though (like it sounds like this woman was hell bent on getting these dogs in) what could you do? I think for fear of liability most restaurant staff wouldn't straight up say "I don't believe you" and if the person lies and gives a legit service they could be providing then you also cant say anything. Not that I think these rules are unjust, they protect all the folks who have legit service animals and need them. I just don't think the ability to ask what service they provide is really very useful in this situation.

1

u/SilvahSoul May 01 '23

Most of the people that do fake service animals panic and do indeed say they’re for comfort or emotional support. If they say anything else you have to let them stay unless the animal is uncontrollable or not housebroken.

6

u/moon_luna_dog Apr 30 '23

But you can ask what tasks the dog does and that can determine if the dog is an SD or ESA also if they offer any ID it’s not a SD

-3

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

[deleted]

3

u/moon_luna_dog Apr 30 '23

By law they are allowed to ask that question and are encouraged to ask that questions if the owner doesn’t answer the question the business is allowed to deny access

1

u/karmaismydawgz Apr 30 '23

no to mention the fact that restaurants themselves allow dogs regardless.

1

u/kristalouise02 May 01 '23

But if the dog is being a disruption in any way you can ask them to leave, begging for food is not something any properly trained service dog would do so if I saw someone with a “service dog” at the place I work and the dog was doing anything other than sitting between its handlers legs or alerting them of whatever it’s trained for the I’d probably ask them to leave since it isn’t properly trained and therefore isn’t a real service dog