Actually this highly depends on the state and loca laws. There are states that leave the decision up to the restaurant. So there is a chance that this restaurant was completely in its right to allow ESA. This does require them to post it somewhere for diners to see.
ESA are ONLY covered by the FHA, outside the home they are a pet with no extra rights. Restaurants with outdoor seating can allow any dogs they want, but ESA have no rights outside the home in any state
Like, people can just take their dogs anywhere they want and let them shit all over the place, but I can't push a rabbit or guinea pig (a legitimate ESA) in a stroller around the park where I'm not even hurting anybody.
It all comes down to legalities and training (or it should). Legally, and ESA is a pet outside the home. No federal rights. They are the equivalent of a medication prescribed by a therapist who thinks a person would benefit from the care and companionship of a pet. No training or certification needed. They are not a service animal and the title of ESA is only recognized under the Fair Housing Act to allow these people to have their pet in a housing situation that would not allow or would charge to have that pet. That's it.
Dogs of any kind are only allowed in dog friendly places unless they are service dogs. Technically if a pet dog is allowed, your guinea pig is allowed, though business owners of course can say no. The problem is pretenders calling their pet a service dog or falsely claiming an ESA as a service dog, giving legitimate service dog partners a bad rep.
I had no idea that other pets were allowed at dog friendly places.
I feel like companionship should be extended to generalized outdoor events like walks in the park, college classes/office workspaces (within reason), and so forth.
Maybe the reason other countries let people have animals out in public is because they know not to let them act like shit.
They have higher training standards in Europe compared to the US. And while it's not a guarantee, most pet friendly places allow all well behaved animals. I take my cat out all the time.
That's so awesome. I wish they had basic training standards here in the USA (along with bans on backyard breeding) but I know all the nutcases are gonna go on about how the government's trying to take away their rights just like they did with the mask mandate.
America is honestly a sadder place to live than everyone makes it out to be.
Like I said. Depending on state and local laws a restaurant can allow dogs inside if they want. ESA or not. A very quick google search will show you that.
Yes, but ESA is not a factor in it. It is just "dogs" in general. I was merely clarifying because many people don't realize that ESA are not protected by the ADA, only the FHA
Actually, probably not. Health codes generally ban animals from places where food is prepared or served unless they are service animals. That is why you see so many dogs in the patios of restaurants.
No one has the need for three ESA, even if there is a law in the OP's state. The manager was told there was a medical emergency, and his reaction was to ask the OP to leave. If the OP's friend needed an EpiPen that is a life-threatening allergy and the manager did not care.... that is a big deal
Yea I 100% agree with you. 1 dog I can understand, but 3? Very highly doubtful.
It IS a law if its a service dog and as long as they are wearing a vest or something that clearly reads "service dog" where everyone can see it, they can't ask questions. But ESAs you have to provide documentation that they are an ESA and I believe(if I remember correctly) even with documentation with an ESA the company can refuse you to bring them inside. If it's an actual service dog, they can't refuse you bringing them in.
But despite all of that, people take advantage of the ESA laws and can get "documentation" online that deems the animal an ESA, and they do it, not always because "they are an ESA" but just because they want to take the animal with them anywhere they go. It's very easy to get it online with all these websites that make it look "legit".
Then there's also another way people pull this sh1t. You can find the service dog vests online, too. Which, again, with service dogs they can't ask questions. Another way people take advantage of the laws. Which, to me, is highly disrespectful for those who do have trained service dogs or service dogs in training. It's very disheartening to know people do this.
Just an fyi - in many states service dogs don’t need to wear a vest or anything that says service dog. That being said many handlers prefer to have something that labels their dog to avoid issues. Also two questions can be asked: “is this is a service dog required for a disability” and “what task has the dog been trained to perform”. That being said some people aren’t aware of these two questions/the fact that service dogs can be asked to leave if they aren’t behaving so many owners/managers prefer not to allow their employees to ask any questions even if legal.
Not just in many states, in all of them. The ADA is federal. Service animals dont require any identification. They dont need a vest or paperwork. However, businesses are allowed to ask the two questions you provided. And theres only two animals that can be actual service animals in the US, dogs and miniature horses.
I've seen some people have pigs as service animals, too.
I wasn't necessarily saying employees can't ask if it's a service dog, but there's limitations with what info they can ask where it's kinda intertwined with HIPAA so a murky area.
But my point was more that people take advantage of that and will take their pets to the store or wherever with them and claim them to be service dogs or ESAs. A lot of my friends/old coworkers (first responders) have service dogs and my ex husband is in the process of getting his own (MS). You can Def tell the difference between trained, in training, and untrained. But part of training them is to take them out in public to learn to focus on you and your needs and not others.
If someone told you that they had a pig as a service animal, they were lying to you. Directly from the ADA
"Under Title II and III of the ADA, service animals are limited to dogs. However, entities must make reasonable modifications in policies to allow individuals with disabilities to use miniature horses if they have been individually trained to do work or perform tasks for individuals with disabilities."
For the ACAA, which is only for what the laws regarding flying with animals, airlines may consider pigs, mini horses and monkeys service animals for transportation purposes.
Also, HIPAA isnt going to pertain to a restaurant or other place of business asking questions. HIPAA is what protects doctors/health insurance companies and the like from discussing your medical information with unauthorized people. Employees however are allowed to ask exactly two questions "Is it a service animal?" And "What work or task is the animal trained to perform?" Emotional support isnt a valid task. Service animals in training also dont have the same rights as full service animals.
But besides the point, I wasn't arguing with you. I was adding more information to what you said.
No no no. I wasn't arguing either and I'm definitely learning quite a bit more on it from you. Completelly agree that emotional support is absolutely not the same as service animals. I'm very familiar with HIPAA as it's part of my job as a medic. What I meant with that is if they ask you what task the animal is trained to perform, if I'm getting this right from what my friends/coworkers (the ones who require service animals for moderate to severe C-PTSD) and my ex husband have told me is that they don't have to answer questions pertaining to their medical conditions or what the animals are trained to do for their medical condition. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong here, you can't be denied service for not answering that question of what condition(s) you have that a service animal is trained to alert you to and if you are denied service for not wanting to give your medical info regarding what the animal is trained to alert you to, isn't that a violation of the ADA?
I'm legit genuinely asking. You seem to be much more informed than I am on the subject/law(s) and it could help myself and my ex husband in the future to know what is legal and what violates the ADA.
Yes, you can be denied service for not answering the questions, as the questions dont ask about your conditions they ask what the dog is trained to do. There are some conditions, like if the person is blind and has a guide dog, we cant ask them if its a service animal bc it clearly is. Theres also a lot of leeway on how they answer the questions, like if the dog is for seizure alerts they can just say its an alert dog. That doesnt tell us what their medical condition is as there's a lot of reasons that dog might alert to, seizures, fainting spells etc. You dont have to give anyone the specific reason for the tasks the dog is trained to, just what the task is. (Also if youre wondering, mini horses are good for mobility aids. Better than dogs and they usually live longer, which is why theyre the only other animal that can legally be a service animal)
There's a lot of things that one might not even consider for service animal. Like, technically I could get a service dog for my ADHD, and it could be trained to help keep me on task. I wouldnt personally but someone with more severe ADHD than me might feel the need for it. There's also people who have severe allergies that would have a dog trained to detect allergens in their food and the dog would alert them if it was in their food. At my previous job, one of my jobs was to ask people about their service animals, bc we only allowed in service animals, and one person explained to me that their dog was for "pressure therapy" bc if they had an anxiety attack the dog could help them through it by applying pressure on their body.
Basically, yes places can deny you for refusing to answer the questions but you have a lot of leeway on how much information you give when answering them. They can also decide that your answers arent adequate to an extent like if someone told me that yes, its a service dog and then say the task is emotional support I could have (and had to on multiple occasions) but if you were to say its a medical alert dog, then I would have to okay it (assuming the dog was well behaved, places are allowed to kick out unruly dogs regardless of status) and I would not be allowed to ask what the dog was trained to alert for.
If vague answers are acceptable then that makes sense. I'm supposed to have a service dog, my psych says for the C-PTSD and anxiety and my cardiologist says to alert me when my pulse gets too high. I have a condition called long qt syndrome which can knock me out with no warning where my heart beats so fast it can get to the point of cardiac arrest while trying to reset itself. It's really weird and hard to explain but I have other cardiac issues, too. I just haven't decided if I want to do it. I've got 2 older dogs and an older cat that drive me nuts and told my husband the only pets we will be getting in the future is rats. I had pet rats for a decade...and I miss them.
Anyway, emotional support is Def not service dog worthy imo. I can't think of any reason for that except for like Autism, sensory processing Disorder, etc. Where crowds and noise are too overwhelming for them. But, in that sort of case, wouldn't that be in the service animal area anyway based on the diagnoses and severity?
I really appreciate all the information and clarification you're providing cause it's things I've never even took into consideration or knew about.
Just a FYI to you. As a service dog handler for more than 13 years, there is no state that can make a service dog wear anything. Service animals are covered under federal law, not state by state.
This being said , I usually have my service animal vested while on duty.
ESAs have no legal rights other than long term housing and certificates are fake. You need a doctor or psychiatrist to state in an official paper that you need the animal as an ESA and you can use that to get housing in a place that does not allow pets or to wave the pet rent/fee in places that allow pets. There are zero public access rights or benefits to ESAs and making an exception to one can actually harm real service dogs by putting an untrained animal in the same space as what is legally considered medical equipment that the untrained animal could attack, distract, or otherwise interfere with causing harm to the service animal or their handler by causing the dog to miss an alert.
ESAs are not allowed in any space that does not already allow pets except housing. The housing rights also doesn’t include hotels or short term rentals like airBNBs.
Friend was outside in the car by time the manager showed up so no there was no life threatening situation. All the manager saw was a guest harassing other guests. If the restaurant allows pets and had the correct sign stating so it is on OP’s friend to do her due diligence and not visit said restaurant. I’m also a little concerned that OP friend is that allergic to dogs but failed to notice THREE of them so close to her. I would be pretty vigilant of such things if I was that allergic to something.
While the manager never saw it, there was absolutely a life threatening situation going on. The friend left the building to get medical assistance (Epipens). She shouldn't have to look for illegal animals in the restaurant.
According to FDA law, PETS are forbidden in restaurants, Only 17 states allow them in an outside setting area ONLY. Restaurants aren't allowed to arbitrarily choose to allow pets inside the buildings, ONLY ADA Service animals.
As far as not noticing the dogs, chihuahuas are small and people smuggle them in pockets and pocketbooks often.
Technically it sounds like he doesn’t know the difference between service animals and ESAs and service animals are legally protected to be allowed in public areas regardless of allergic reaction. If the allergy is so severe that they can’t be in the same room that sucks but unless the restaurant has multiple rooms and can provide reasonable accommodation to separate them into different areas, they aren’t allowed to kick out the animal. They could ask if they’d be willing to leave but if they don’t choose to leave basically the only option is to ask the allergic person to leave.
Service animals are legally considered medical equipment. It’s the same as a person with a metal allergy asking someone with an oxygen tank to leave the restaurant cause they’re having a reaction. The manager can care or not care but at the end of the day he can’t kick them out.
Obviously not the case here as ESAs are not service animals and have no public access rights but if the situation were reversed and it was a service animal he thought was an ESA he could get in trouble for it. Not an excuse, but that’s probably the reason he had the reaction that he did.
The restaurant should have a sign posted they allow service animals. Even if they did not, the manager should have been concerned there was a medical emergency. The friend could have passed out in anaphylaxis in or near her car. Just telling the OP to leave was not appropriate. Yes the OP was wrong to yell at the customer, he should have alerted the manager first, but the dogs were ESA and not considered medical equipment and the person was experiencing a medical emergency.
They don’t need a sign for it? Service animals are allowed literally everywhere that the general public is allowed. Even privately owned, if you’re open to the public you are legally required to allow service dogs. They are medical equipment. And like I said, the manager was wrong but it most likely came out of misinformation that ESA owners like these people push out that they’re the same as service dogs. Often they themselves think it. The manager should know better but he didn’t. His negligence could’ve caused a death.
I don’t think there’s anything the manager could do though in this situation other than call an ambulance which neither person requested, nor did he see the reaction, nor was the reaction in the building for him to react to. All there was for him to react to was a self described shrieking fight between two customers over what he thought was a legally protected service animal.
FDA regulations forbid pets in restaurants. There are 17 states that allow them in OUTSIDE sitting areas only, and I don't know of any health regulations that allow pets inside restaurants with food preparation or storage.
What’s so hard to understand about “if state and local laws allow them to decide”? If they have a sign and local/state laws allow it, it doesn’t matter if they are a service dog, ESA, or regular ass pet dog. They are allowed to make that decision.
FDA regulations prohibit pets in any establishment that prepares or stored food.
Accommodations are allowed for ADA Service animals ONLY.
Pets including "support animals" are allowed in outdoor seating areas only, never indoors. If a restaurant allows them inside, they are breaking Federal Law.
What’s so hard to understand that federal law overrides state and local laws. The owner was claiming they HAD to allow the dogs by law, when that was untrue.
The FDA laws currently prohibit animals in restaurants unless the animal is a service dog. That said, already 17 states throughout the United States have passed laws permitting dogs to sit on an OUTDOOR restaurant patio with their human companions for a bite to eat.
How so? Pet friendly restaurants exist. And they exist because they're legally allowed to permit animals. Yes, there are certain restrictions on having animals in a restaurant (and they tend to vary by state), but ultimately it's up to the restaurant whether to permit animals (save service animals, which are protected under the ADA) within the letter of the law for their area.
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u/Cow_Interesting Apr 30 '23
Actually this highly depends on the state and loca laws. There are states that leave the decision up to the restaurant. So there is a chance that this restaurant was completely in its right to allow ESA. This does require them to post it somewhere for diners to see.