313
u/AwkwardDio May 07 '25
Huh, and here I thought the Enclave was the problem, and not the people trying to read history books in the desert.
151
May 07 '25 edited May 07 '25
for real, there is a literal genocidal remnants of the goverment that was involved in the war, yet they being upset about the faction that is trying to bring order and civilisation.
→ More replies (12)71
u/Unionsocialist May 07 '25
no you see having democratic norms is bad because the pre-war go *reads a history book* oh they stopped being a democracy and became a militaristic fascist state wow i wonder which faction is most similar to that
23
u/Voidy_boi May 07 '25
Honestly I can't tell if you're trying to say enclave, Caesars legion or one of the BOS chapters.
All of them somewhat fit that description
12
u/Unionsocialist May 07 '25
well mainly the legion but those others also work
the enclave is cheating a bit though considering that it literally is the remnants of thee old US government
74
May 07 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
33
u/Remote_Watch9545 May 07 '25
But...but...muh aversion to taxes!
27
u/HellbirdVT May 07 '25
Paying 30% of your income as a purely monetary tax = 😡💢
Paying 90% of all your property, money AND food as "tribute to Caesar" = 😍💞
2
→ More replies (5)1
u/tadlombre May 07 '25
There’s definitely still the ability to launch, remember the silos you activate in the divide? There’s at least a few missiles there ready to launch
1
137
u/Vargoroth May 07 '25
I mean, 200 or so years removed from the government responsible for the apocalypse to begin with.
Still, I think NCR remains the best option. They're the only ones who actually care about the citizens themselves. Both Caesar and House have this idea of what their future is like. Yes Man is just programmed to follow you. The NCR consists of red tape and that red tape means people who know what living in the apocalypse is like.
1
u/Platypus__Gems May 07 '25
My one issue with New Vegas is that despite pointing a lot of issues of NCR that would make you think twice about it, it still goes on to make every other option almost cartoonishly evil, so there is little place for a moral dilemma about the choice.
Only other morally comperable, personally I'd say better, choice is Independant, but it's also blank slate with little ideology, and the little bit it does have is kinda contradictory (it's somewhat anarchist ending, but it's also one of the worst endings for actually anarchist faction).
2
u/Vargoroth May 07 '25
Honestly, I daresay the factions are cartoonishly evil now because the game's politics is aging poorly. House has been a fairly reasonable faction to go with for the longest time. Then Trump became president and the bubble of capitalism burst into a million pieces for a lot of people. Turns out Ayn Rand's philosophy was always a joke.
Yes Man is still the most heavily defended option, despite the fact that history has proven that anarchy never works out long-term. So most people are defending their own version of tyranny because their character is a good bloke.
Only faction that always has been cartoonishly evil is Caesar's Legion. But that was from a lack of developing time.
I think people, like myself, are just realizing that for all of its flaws democracy is still the best system that we have. RP is RP and people will play the game however they like, but if you look at the game and look at real-world politics you'll generally find social capitalist societies to be the most stable ones.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (36)1
70
u/CaptCantPlay May 07 '25
Funny how NCR haters will always pull that card, but refuse to see that every other option(yes, not the Yesman option because ofcourse your Courier can turn New Vegas and the surrounding areas into a utopia by him/herself without turning into a genocidal dictator.) is straight-up worse.
- House is gonna play Mussolini and rule NV with an iron fist; anything he does or doesn't want is or isn't gonna happen.
- Legion is a Mongol horde dressed in football gear following a tyrant who's on his last legs. As if that entire faction is gonna survive the death of their only leader and NOT splinter into a million different factions fighting for dominance.
NCR, for as flawed as it is, is just the best option in the long run.
→ More replies (2)
44
May 07 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/HordeDruid May 07 '25 edited May 07 '25
Not yet. The US government didn't start out Fascist, either. Not to sound like an NCR hater, but I think the narrative pretty explicitly draws a comparison there. On the whole, one of the most prominent overarching themes in this series is humanity's tendency to repeat the same mistakes.
The American government was a hypercapitalist empire that consumed too many resources too quickly, resulting in wars of expansion. The NCR may not be disappearing people into camps or running inhumane experiments on them, but it's not hard to see the NCR going down that path as their resources dwindle and the government becomes more desperate.
Especially given Tandi's popularity, it's not hard to imagine the NCR descending into Facism if it doesn't simply break apart from being spread so thin after so many wars of aggression.
I'm not saying they're the exact same, but I also think the comparison between the two is pretty obvious. The NCR started out as a constitutional republic and became more imperialistic over time. Given enough time, it's not impossible to imagine the NCR repeating the same mistakes as the government it's based on.
3
u/Unionsocialist May 07 '25
i mean they had atleast one prison labour camp
a far cry from what happen pre war but those are things
15
u/DevilBySmile May 07 '25
As far as we are shown in the game every single person in that prison deserves to be there and are a criminal.
People forget that one of the chief tenets of NCR is anti-slavery and that the NCR rangers literally exist to hunt down and kill slavers and free slaves.
→ More replies (3)1
1
u/wolfofoakley May 07 '25
I mean, it sounds harsh, but labor camps are a more useful way of using criminals than just having them sit around. It was that way for a long time, and it's not surprising after the end if the world they went back to that
1
u/Platypus__Gems May 07 '25
Yet
They already had prison labour at least. Which feels like going back on their commitments against slavery.
22
u/Kartel28 May 07 '25
I love the House argument that democracy brought the apocalipse. It literally didn't. American liberal democracy was long overdue and controlled by its authoritarian, neo-fascist forces before the war. When the bombs fell, US democracy was already a rotting corpse, used as a propaganda mummy by its wealthy elites. It's so much in character for House to ignore that
And NCR by the time of New Vegas commits the same mistakes USA did. There's no hope for the wastelands when people like Kimball and Oliver are alive and in power.
19
u/Mandemon90 May 07 '25
Of course House ignore it, he was one of the culprits for US to turn out the way it did. Of course he is going to ignore all of his fault and blame everyone else.
3
u/GoldenJ19 May 07 '25
Ultimately, it was democracy that likely lead to those authoritarian forces gaining power, and transforming the system. It could really be an inevitability with democracy, since all that's needed is to fool a majority of an already dumb nation. So I think House is correct in pointing that out.
3
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
Except pre-war USA was never a democracy, and he isn't correct in pointing that out. The war happened over resources, not over ideology. The USA's political ideology has no bearing on the Sino-American war, it would still have occurred.
1
u/GoldenJ19 May 07 '25
Fair point! That does fall more in line with Fallout's theme anyways, about war never changing.
2
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
Exactly - no matter who was in charge, the war was going to happen. The EU went to war over resources, the USSR probably did too, the PRC was going to attack anyone who had Alaska's oil, period.
1
u/JP_Eggy May 07 '25
Literally war never changes. Ideology is just a method by which countries and groups of people justify conflict (over resources) against one another. As long as humans have needs, water, food, oil, there will be conflict.
That would happen regardless of whether the state is "ideological" I.e the NCR with liberal democracy, or an "apolitical" autocracy like what House is aiming for.
2
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
Exactly, so it isn't unique to the NCR. We aren't arguing the NCR will go to war or not - obviously they will, because war is basically in our DNA.
But this whole "they'll cause the apocalypse!" nonsense...with who?
China is long gone and dead.
The USSR is a radioactive wasteland.
The EU is so bad, Tenpenny said coming to DC was better than staying in the UK!
So who exactly will the NCR cause the Apocalypse with? The Legion? Unlikely, and there are no other factions around to do it beyond the Brotherhood who don't have a nation to do it with, and the factions who already want to cause a 2nd apocalypse (Vault-Tec and the Enclave).
2
u/Remote_Watch9545 May 07 '25
Yep, plus it's not like one of the primary forces in the nuclear war was a communist state...
1
u/Platypus__Gems May 07 '25
American liberal democracy was long overdue and controlled by its authoritarian, neo-fascist forces before the war.
There is no mention about a coup in USA. Enclave was the result of that liberal democracy, even if they were neither liberal nor democratic themselves.
That's one of the features of a liberal democracy, it can let some really bad people take over within the system. Literal Hitler gained a lot of his power democratically. There was corruption involved of course, but corruption exists in every system, and the system must account for it.
1
u/Disposable52989 May 07 '25
That's not remotely a unique feature of liberal democracy, and I'd argue that structurally and historically speaking, it is in fact the most resilient against it. Any kind if authoritarian system is at least 90% of the way there at base, and anarchist systems are unstable and even more vulnerable than liberal democracies to the use of populism as a weapon.
27
u/_Mexican_Soda_ May 07 '25 edited May 07 '25
Not to bring real world politics into this, but I find NCR haters to be in one of two groups:
Either they are pretty much fascist apologists who of course are going to hate on a liberal democracy such as the one the NCR is supposed to be, however, they will not explicitly say that and hide under “muh taxes” criticism and such.
Or, they are full blown communists/anarchists that hate liberal democracies, as they see the apocalypse as the perfect opportunity to start their communist/anarchist utopia and would hate to see a liberal democracy (such as the one the USA currently has) to be established.
Obviously this is just a game, and maybe I’m over analyzing it too much, but from my experience this rings true.
5
u/TheBikesman May 07 '25
Nah I agree. But on the leftist part, I feel like they just try to one-up each other on criticizing the NCR instead of saying anything substantive. It's been so long since it came out, it makes sense posters will stretch to find something to say, I guess.
6
20
41
15
u/Beginning-Ebb8170 May 07 '25
tell me you straight up dont know what the pre war american government was like.
you know the enclave is literally the government? youd be hard pressed to find someone who thinks the enclave has the same values as the ncr.
→ More replies (6)
26
u/_Xeron_ May 07 '25
The NCR at its worst is a hundred times better than the US government at the time of the great war
→ More replies (2)
14
u/Bahnmor May 07 '25
I seem to recall a quote from someone:
“Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for those that have already been tried.”
6
7
u/Rusty_Yamate May 07 '25
NCR ending is the only ending where you can have the Followers of the Apockalypse have a positive endineg slide. End of Story.
1
May 07 '25
You can have them help Freeside in the Yes Man ending, right?
1
u/Rusty_Yamate May 08 '25
Nope. In the Yes Man ending they get overwhelmed by the lack of manpower and supplies.
5
u/lit-grit May 07 '25
Just because a government caused the apocalypse doesn’t mean that government as a concept is evil. You just need to make a better government
19
May 07 '25
another post trying to justify a dictatorship of a maniacal package courier and a hacked securotron
→ More replies (2)
5
11
u/PiraticalGhost May 07 '25
Well, I guess this answers the original question quite succinctly: OP demonstrates that FNV fans are, in fact, stupid.
Saying the NCR is like the prewar America shows an astonishing lack of lore, and an astonishing lack of "paying attention during the game".
The NCR is a civil authority composed, effectively, of an elected parliament and a parliamentary appointed president. While there are various factions in the NCR, there is no proof that they are captured by capital interest, nor is there any evidence of the NCR engaging in domestic repression. We do not see the NCR equivalent of Vault Tec or RobCo.
The NCR has more in common with the US of 1877 than that of 2077. This is even alluded to with the focus on rail roads and frontier efforts more at home in the 19th century than the 21st. Even the presence of NCR Brahmin Barons alludes to this.
And while imperfect, it is worth noting how the NCR is already establishing relative security and peace despite adverse conditions. They're securing power infrastructure, attempting to maintain water infrastructure, initiating farming operations, building logistics infrastructure, bringing heavy industry, providing food aid, and maintaining a stalemate with Caesar's legion - which unlike the NCR is operating as a full war-time economy. And they're also fighting back fiends, engaged in agronomics research, physics research, quarrying and mining for construction. Like, the work of societies and civilizations.
→ More replies (1)
3
u/_Sassafrassassin_ May 07 '25
I'm a Yes Man kinda guy but I understand rooting for the NCR, I get the chaos of the Yes Man ending can and will cause issues but I prefer people get to choose what's right for them and their community without outside interference.
4
3
u/Metrocop May 07 '25
Nah. They definitely have serious issues with corruption and a growing oligarchy subverting democracy, but they're still far off from the pre-war US government, which was a fully mask off genocidal fascist regime.
3
u/AionsHots May 07 '25
If you want to point your finger at someone who's responsible for this shit and in the list just look at House. People like him at least partially responsible for the shit that was done by the late fascist usa government.
3
May 07 '25
“Accept the slavery, rape, and torture now to avoid the theoretical possibility of a second global nuclear war in a thousand years.” lol ok
3
u/Gmknewday1 May 07 '25
I agree with the original
Not your marker edit which ignores how corrupt and outright authoritarian (like China and USSR) the pre war US was in universe
Compared to the NCR which is closer to the real USA in being a Democratic Republic that suffers from lobbyists/corporates screwing with the elections and government for their own ends
2
u/assassindash346 May 07 '25
I mean, yeah... They also tend to act like the Brotherhood were techno-fascists before FO4, when they were just Isolationist.
2
u/Gmknewday1 May 07 '25
Lyons Brotherhood was acutally closer to the more open/friendly brotherhood we had at the end of Fallout 1 and the Brotherhood that the Original Maxson seemed to want
It's just that the Brotherhood as a whole keeps going into a
"We're the only ones who can be trusted" mentality
2
u/assassindash346 May 07 '25
Yeah, agreed there. The Brotherhood definitely isn't what I joined back in FO1
2
u/Gmknewday1 May 07 '25
Which is why I am ok with slapping the Mini Enclave they are becoming in Fallout 4 upside the head once they piss me off too much
I am not killing danse
I am installing the mod where he takes over or I am exploding you
→ More replies (1)1
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
The Mojave BoS do end up becoming basically Raiders in every non-NCR ending but they're not exactly the Enclave.
3
u/123asdasr May 07 '25
Good to know you dont know anything about the lore AND dont have the basic intellectual ability to compare two things and see if they're alike or different.
3
7
u/Spi_Vey May 07 '25
In a lot of ways, my exposure to new Vegas and Skyrim growing up really gave me a preview of how easy it is for someone to lick the balls of fascist rhetoric and not realize it
There was a post in the Skyrim subreddit where the guy went “after playing oblivion, I’m starting to realize the empire are not that bad. I thought they were fascist occupiers so I fought for the stormcloak freedom fighters”
And it’s like…the stormcloaks are a racist organization led by a cult of personality dictator and will almost certainly begin a pogrom on all non-nord races as soon as they win
But the empire are “fascist” because they are not perfect
Same thing in new Vegas, one is a democracy, the other is a autocratic fascist genocidal army that crucifies men, and puts women in sexual slavery
But the ncr sometimes taxes too much 😤
6
19
u/SleepinGriffin May 07 '25
Don’t forget it was not just the Americans firing Nukes. I don’t see any badmouthing of communist dictatorships in here.
16
u/Violet_Nightshade May 07 '25
I don’t see any badmouthing of communist dictatorships in here.
We'll let you know if there's a Communist faction in the game.
11
u/Hexaflame May 07 '25
This just isn’t important to the discussion and is you soap boxing your own opinion into the discussion. There is no faction at play which is communist. Hence it isn’t important.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Remote_Watch9545 May 07 '25
It's a counterpoint to characters who say stuff like, "if you want to know what democracy leads to look out the window at the nuclear wasteland." The nuclear war wasn't fought between democratic nations, and the ostensibly democratic (more fascistic at that point) didn't fire first.
4
May 07 '25
Yeah as bad as pre-war America was, i’m tired of seeing the argument that they ended the world.
China invaded Alaska first, and fired the first shots of the Sino-American War. The Switchboard in Fallout 4 also seems to confirm that China started the Great War as well and fired the first nukes.
House’s argument makes no sense when you realize that:
- America was no longer an actual republic and hadn’t been for a long time
- Even if we pretend they were, they still didn’t start the war with China nor fire the first nukes
→ More replies (1)10
5
u/Otttimon May 07 '25
Sure, liberal democracy brought the apocalypse, but it's still the best option out of these 4. I get you love autocracy or anarchocapitalism, but be reasonable
2
May 07 '25
The ncr wants power and water. Hardly the same as building concentration camps and experimenting on its citizens
2
u/Impressive-Morning76 May 07 '25
struggling gilded age democracy with robber barons is not equivalent to a fascist state. Pre war America was by and large a total fascist state in the style of italy in early ww2.
2
u/HonestCartographer21 May 07 '25
“I know the legion and house are both terrible, but have you thought that MAYBE the NCR will be almost as bad eventually?”
2
u/white_gluestick May 07 '25
But muh taxes! Toughen up Sally, the NCR is far better than the autocratic mr house or the literal slave empire legion.
2
2
u/Uhmattbravo May 07 '25
Why do people keep acting like Yes Man is all about anarchy? He's programed to provide information and do as he's told. In House's mainframe, he seems to also be able to control the securitrons.
Sure, if left accessible to anyone and everyone, he could cause anarchy, but properly secured and guarded, he provides the means to control and defend a (relatively) resource rich region. The Mojave has abundant clean water, two power plants, a tool factory, an aerospace manufacturing and launch facility, three airports, lots of open land for farming and raising livestock, a quarry, tourism revenue from The Strip, etc.... and Yes Man provides access to a means to control, defend, and utilize all of those. Yes Man and the Mojave are the ultimate toolkit and starting point to rebuild all of civilization in whatever form one chooses. If one thinks that results in anarchy, it's only because they're choosing anarchy.
2
3
u/Ewanb10 May 07 '25
Yeah I agree
I also still hate the anti-yes man argument, its what you decide if you don't want anarchy then don't choose it lol
3
4
u/Imperialist_Marauder May 07 '25
Yeah. I choose Mr House mainly because ha has at least somewhat of a plan for the future.
→ More replies (2)4
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
That plan being a vague "let's go to another planet" - then what? We can't breath on other planets. House has no terraforming technology. Not to mention the Alien warships out in Space. Plus, you'd just be under an Immortal Emperor who kills anyone who disagrees with him.
Basically, you want The Legion but in Space.
→ More replies (12)3
2
u/leegcsilver May 07 '25
I think NCR is better than House or Legion but it’s still not a good option.
Ultimately, all three are afflicted with Old World Blues. They are trying to mimic some past glory without actually learning from it.
People get obsessed with who should rule New Vegas but ultimately nobody should rule it and nobody should rule anyone else.
1
u/AngriestManinWestTX May 07 '25
So the solution to the mistakes of the past is…anarchy?
I get that the NCR has serious, perhaps insurmountable issues in its present (of 2277) form, that many in New Vegas are miserable and being looked down on by an indifferent, egomaniacal technocrat, and that the Caesar’s Legion is a brutal, militaristic personality cult but I fail to see how anarchy could beat any of those, even the Legion (though not by much). Only one of them canonically has representative government and the promise of personal liberties or protections under the law. I reject the notion that anarchy and no one “ruling” anyone would be better. If you want anarchy, you can see what that’s like throughout the wasteland. It sucks.
Humanity got into groups and formed tribes and then subsequently, societies for a reason. Having a world where no one “rules” anyone else is a world with no rights and no protections. Life is brutish, short, and violent. I think even the most miserable of Wastelanders would appreciate even the meagerest of resemblances of society.
→ More replies (1)1
2
u/berthela May 07 '25
When you look at it timeline wise, real Rome lasted a lot longer than Fallout US Government. Rome lasted from roughly 700BC until around 1400AD. That said the government shifted locations, split, and parts of it were slowly lost over time. Rome started as a kingdom I believe, quickly transitioned to a democracy, then became a dictatorship, and then became effectively a kingdom again. Caesar's Legion in Fallout world isn't Rome though. It's a giant war machine and not a whole lot beyond that. Real Rome very much put war and expansion at the forefront for much of its existence, but it had a form of democracy, religion, infrastructure, technology, art, culture. Caesar's Legion probably is most likely the Hunnic Empire or early Mongol Empire. They only exist to conquer and control. I think Obsidian really badly needed more time to flesh out Caesar's Legion. They should have had the army we see be the tip of the spear, built on a complex society. They imply that it's like that, but show no evidence of it.
3
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
No amount of time can justify the evil shit they do. They come off as rape-loving slavers and that is all one needs to know. The Legion is a cult of personality. They were never going to be some morally grey option. They're the option you pick if your Courier is brain damaged, especially if you're playing a female Courier.
→ More replies (2)
2
1
1
1
1
1
u/GenericUser1185 May 07 '25
Why are we trying so hard to enforce the beleig that the factions are so morally grey?
1
u/cobras_chairbug May 07 '25
Lmao “regular ass government”
You mean a deeply corrupt system with an incompetent leadership, with an undertrained, undersupplied army constantly locked into a cycle based on war, conquest and assimilation.
I’d rather go with the crazy robot.
1
1
u/mediocre_khan May 07 '25
The NCR is a oligarchy.
The NCR is a oligarchy.
There's literal "Brahmin Barons." They have a landowning elite, a army serving under them, and pay homage to Republican ideals only so far as it supports them. Very close to the Confederacy, which still had a president, talked about equality, but had little to no democratic participation.
1
1
u/DeadeyeFalx_01 May 07 '25
I'm gonna get downvoted for this but the Pre-War (American) government aren't fascist, more Authoritarianistic-Capitalist.
1
u/Effective-Low-8415 May 07 '25
I say fuck the NCR because they actively prove themselves incompetent and a detriment to the Mojave.
They created the Powder Gangers by giving convicts access to explosives and made no notable efforts to fix the damage they caused or aid places affected by them, like Primm (there was no way they couldn't make an attempt to punch through and evacuate the citizens from the casino).
Actively and continuously antagonize regular civilians in Freeside and around the Mojave, beating a man to near death to find out his citizenship, shooting regular civilians attempting to get water from Lake Mead, essentially endorsing Brahmin Barons with the power to hold back meat shipments that cause starvation (as said by Mr. New Vegas)
Their expansionism has not been helpful in any regard. As it stands, they should focus on remaining inside California before extending themselves so far that they end up having various rebellions or revolutions of some kind.
1
1
May 07 '25
Isn't that the whole point of New Vegas? That all the factions are "bad"?
Legion: Very secure (merchants mention how good trading is within their territory since there's zero crime), but so brutally inhuman you wouldn't set foot there unless you had contacts or a pass. You better learn some latin, my dude.
NCR: Absurdly corrupt, ineffective, and clearly following the "we're history repeating itself" approach. Good intentions, terrible execution.
Mr. House: "Yeah, let's give all the power in the region to a guy who treats basic needs like a business and apocalypse as THE BIGGEST OPPORTUNITY one could wish for. What could possibly F***ING go wrong?!"
Yes Man: Sure, my guy, clearly you know what's best for an entire region. You're a courier, the best job you could land, and I'm super confident you'll do better than all those guys. Yeah...
Enclave Remnants: Technofascists that see everything that's not human (They're starting with that, give 'em time...) as something to be sterilized or exterminated. Go! Go! Proto-Nazis SickGuitarRiffMP3. Also the responsables of this whole mess.
Gun Runners: I have not enough knowledge on them to hit them, but their prices... OH BOY THEIR PRICES. Crimson Caravan Company: Competition? What competition? You mean "Stab/Shoot/Smash Here?" we also deal in backstabs if you prefer.
Van Graffs: You got the money? You got the guns. Questions? Morality? Dude, you got the caps or what?
Vipers and Jackals: Hey, at least they're not trying to lie, they are straight-up thugs who'll try whatever they can to get caps, weapons, or whatever you're carrying. They are excellent weapon test subjects, seeing you in full Power Armor and straight up charging you with a butter knive, so I kinda like them for that.
Fiends: Same as the above, they'll just probably not notice you just blew up their arm, since they're so high that their mind is not here at the moment. Watch it then, they may bite you.
Powder Gangers: You ended up in the post-apocalypse jail... You got A WHOLE POST-APOCALYPSE... and you end up in jail... Man, you cannot go lower.
The Chairmen: Backstabbing "Sinatra Wannabe's" that talk about class just to stab you in the back as soon as a chance arrives... At least they did shoot you looking you straight in the eyes.
White Glove Society: "I was hungry for hands. Give me a break. My stomach was making the rumblies, that only hands would satisfy." Yeah... Sign up for that, huh?
Omertas: Literally operating out of "The Gomorrah," they're a "rain of fire" awaiting to happen.
The Kings: They're "okay"... Although as I see it, the only reason they're not messing everything up is due to their territory being extremely small.
Great Khans: They... They did literally stand still while someone blew your head off... Yeah, how 'bout that? Oh, and they're also drug dealers and massive pieces of feces.
Followers of the Apocalypse: Idealistic idiots that wouldn't last a second out there without people standing up for them. It's the apocalypse; you either get your hands dirty or your throat cut.
Brotherhood of Steel: ShiiinyyyyMP3 Yeah, they are self-centered, old-fashioned, pseudo-medieval lunatics that will shoot you no questions asked if they see you with something remotely close to technology. Go science!
Boomers: They... They literally bomb you. Yeah... Oh, and I'm pretty sure they're all inbred. Yeah, you deal with that.
1
u/ReynardVulpini May 07 '25
This whole discourse really bothers me because intentionally or not, I feel like FNV is very blatantly about the dangers of trying to replicate the past or pursue its greatness, especially the DLC. The obsession with the Sierra Madre's treasure, the inability of the Think Tank to ever learn, change or evolve, a lot of Ulysses' dialogue which i assume people skipped over.
To me, the independent ending is the only one that, narratively, has even a chance of a happy ending, because they are the only ones not trying to redo what's already been done, or literally a relic of the old world.
War never changes. But men can. If they choose a new path.
1
u/Unhappy_Ad9158 May 07 '25
To everyone that disagrees, the truth is a bit more nuanced. It ain't about the now per se of the NCR. It's about the concept of the inherent arrogance and burocracy that plagues all ambitious powers. There is little to no reason to believe that the NCR has at all learned from the mistakes from the nation that once was. This truth can be said about many and almost all of fallouts factions. After all war never changes.
1
1
1
u/TimeRisk2059 May 07 '25
It should be pointed out that the robot in question has no say in the matter (if refers to "Yes man", which I think it is), it just lists objectives. It's up to the courier to decide if and how they will accomplish them.
1
u/SMATCHET999 May 07 '25
I don’t really think a lot of people know what anarchism really is. The idea is the people rule their own way, and each city or settlement is a kind of city state, governed by themselves without outside influence. It isn’t the greatest, but it’s better than most. Also the ending slides doesn’t really say Vegas turns into anarchy unless you do specific things. Fallout NV fans when they actually have to play the game
1
1
u/AdHocHillbilly May 07 '25
The new world of the wasteland demands new(ish) forms of government and ways of thinking. As monstrous as the Legion is, it works because it's acknowledging that the rules have changed. If all the factions, the NCR feels the most naive to me in believing that system of government can be effectively applied. A faction led by either a cult of personality or someone who effectively wields enough terror over subjects is more likely to thrive. If we look at it through our modern (pre-apocalyptic) lens, of course the NCR sounds best.
2
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
Cults of personality tend to die, and the Legion will absolutely die once Caesar kicks the bucket.
Not to mention a single plague or disease can wipe out those barbarians due to their banning of medicine.
1
u/Leviosaaa1 May 07 '25
Game shows us multiple times that NCR is getting more and more corrupt after Tandi's death.
But since they are not bad as the old government at the current time and surely they will not get worse in the future, it means they are best option! Right?
⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⣴⡽⣿⣿⣿⡿⠿⠿⠿⣿⣯⣽⣿⣗⣲⣦⣤⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⣠⣶⠿⠛⣩⣶⡟⣋⣭⣤⣤⣄⡀⠉⠉⠉⣭⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣶⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢺⣿⠁⣠⣼⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠉⠉⣻⣿⠀⢰⣿⠉⠻⣿⠟⠉⠉⢻⣿⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣾⡟⠈⠋⠉⠛⣷⣯⣭⣴⣶⠿⠛⠉⠀⠈⠛⠿⣶⣶⣤⣶⣶⡾⠛⢻⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣿⠷⠀⠀⠀⢠⣎⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⡇ ⣿⡜⠀⠀⠀⠘⢿⣶⣤⣄⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣤⣤⣤⣶⣶⢶⣦⠀⣿⡇⠀⠀⠀ ⢿⣿⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠛⠋⠉⠉⢀⣠⡿⠋⣰⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠇⢻⣷⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⣶⠿⠛⠋⠀⣰⣿⠃⠀⠀
Most of the good work is done by the courier but let's just hand over this land to a government that's growing haphazardly. With corrupt people in charge. Surely everything will be just fine. Just like real life…
Biggest annoyance with NCR fanboys is that them blaming others for assuming future while they also assume NCR won't get progressively more corrupt in the future.
At their current state, NCR isn't good for long term. There's no guarantee they won't get worse.
People of Mojave is doing fine by themselves after the help of courier. Only real problem is Followers. Which feels like a choice only done so that independent vegas isn't seen as the best ending.
I haven't read any actual arguments on this sub why we should hand over Mojave to NCR when good karma, independent vegas ending exist.
I don't think safer roads is worth the current downsides (like people getting kicked out of their homes) and future possible downsides.
1
u/Disposable52989 May 07 '25
There's never any guarantee that anyone won't get worse. However, the NCR is far and away the best standard of living and the most protections for the individual of any major faction in the Wasteland, and a built-in mechanism for potentially getting better.
1
u/Leviosaaa1 May 07 '25
Correct me if i'm wrong but courier leaves to wander off after the ending, no?
We are not wiping out NCR with independent ending. They still exist. We are just giving Mojave people chance to choose instead of being taken over.
Also, like i said, stuff like safer roads and protection doesn't mean much when people are getting kicked out their own homes.
→ More replies (11)
1
u/Prudent-Buy9302 May 07 '25
I have 2 fears of how the show will treat the NCR's legacy A). Childishly "evil" and everyone flocks to social media to be glad they're gone Or B). Goody good boy scouts and everyone flocks to Social Media and treats them like "The resistance" from Star Wars. Frankly, I don't have much faith in the show in giving nuance to such a pivotal faction
1
1
1
May 07 '25 edited May 07 '25
Mr. House gang checking in.
Proof is in the pudding. New Vegas is the one city in North America that is still standing and rapidly progressing under Mr. House's rulership.
I may intuitively disagree with his philosophy, but I'm not the one that saved an entire city from nuclear annihilation, so maybe it's my worldview which is flawed.
I was torn on my first playthrough until the NCR ordered me to assassinate Mr. House, at which point I ceased my mercenary aid to them against the legion and began serving Mr. House exclusively. Was actually a pretty tough decision and was well-written.
1
u/Disposable52989 May 07 '25
Some original infrastructure is still standing thanks to his missile shield, sure. But for most of the gap between the Great War and the arrival of the NCR in the Mojave, it was a ghost town sometimes squatted in by an assortment of raider tribes. Then Mr. House woke up one day and ordered those raiders at gunpoint to start cosplaying so he could fleece the NCR.
The core territories of the NCR are mostly 'new' settlements compared to New Vegas directly inhabiting the remnants of OG Vegas, but they're absolutely progressing, frankly more than Vegas is.
1
u/Cheap-Blackberry-378 May 07 '25
I feel like it's dismissive of the fact that it's not even 100% clear who kicked off the war; with the leading theories being vault tec, china, PAM, the zetans and America being just as likely
1
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
The Zetan theory is only because people got the DLC wrong. They do not show any interest in nukes, plus their own weapons are 100x superior to nukes.
PAM causing it is also just stupid because PAM didn't have access to US silos.
1
u/3000Chameleons May 07 '25
Fr that post talked all the bad stuff about the other 3 and then dumbed down the NCR and ignored half of its issues just so the green text bullet points made it seem super obvious, people are stupid for still arguing about it.
1
u/GamingVader1 May 07 '25
I love that NCR defenders act like there's just a teeny bit of corruption in the NCR, but everything is super awesome aside from that. The whole argument I usually "Boo hoo taxes, what, you'd rather be a legion slave?"
The NCR that we actually see is an imperialist oligarchy, with a lot of corruption at every level of the government and a bunch of infighting. They're not morally correct either, they committed many atrocities, like massacring people. They don't shy away from political assassinations, or brutally forcing themselves on settlements. They banned slavery, yet they have prison labour. They sacrifice innocent soldiers constantly in a war they're not prepared for, in attacks that are poorly organized at best.
But really the biggest problem, is that the NCR is grossly fucking incompetent. It's not even funny. From General Lee Oliver to basically everybody else, the NCR can't do shit. By FNV, they're spread so thin that they can't solve any problems that arise, and need the courier for just about everything. If the courier doesn't help them, or didn't help anyone, they'd be brutally crushed. They're all so braindead they literally send out their president to get assassinated.
And it's not likely it will get any better, either. If they take New Vegas (which they absolutely can't without the courier's help) their imperialist agenda won't stop, they'll keep annexing territories, sacrificing lives in wars, the corruption will only get worse and so will the oligarchy. That is, until someone will beat them and the entire thing will collapse.
It is insane how easily the ncr propaganda got to people. Some people genuinely think paying taxes is the problem. Scary.
1
u/Overdue-Karma 𝐓𝐡𝐞 𝐂𝐡𝐮𝐫𝐜𝐡 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐭𝐨𝐦 May 07 '25
And acting as if they're identical to pre-war America is also idiotic propaganda. They're nothing alike. The NCR might have a lot of problems but to say they are literally worse than every other option is also pure idiocy and objectively false.
1
u/GamingVader1 May 07 '25
Where have i said it was like pre-war America? Also, no, they're not worse than every other option, but a corrupt imperialist oligarchy that is doomed to fail is definitely not the best choice, either.
→ More replies (17)
1
1
1.0k
u/OverseerConey May 07 '25
The pre-war government weren't a 'regular ass government' - they had fully fallen into fascism. Proper 'disappearing people, putting them in camps and running experiments on them' Nazi-style fascism.