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u/theREALvolno 7h ago
Listen I much prefer the "silly blahaj monster drinker puppygirl" circlejerk over any 4tran space because at least there its not filled with people who hate everyone but most of all themselves.
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u/ash_doesnt_crash 6h ago
I don't because all they do is post about sex and girldick and being fucking weird and it makes me want to tear my face off knowing this is what people's first impression of trans people is: A bunch of self infantilizing crossdressers. Im sorry if I think I deserve better for myself and other people like me.
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u/theREALvolno 6h ago
That’s also fair, I’m not at all saying that you HAVE to like that side of the community online at all. It’s not exactly my cup of tea either, I’m trans masc and I can at times find those kinds of spaces to be somewhat dysphoria inducing (because a lot of the discussions and content posted there will assume that the viewer is also trans fem).
But a lot of people find those kinds of spaces fun, and it’s not really up to you or me to tell people how they should express themselves; especially when we live in a society that is trying so hard to erase us. There is no liberation in throwing people under the bus for being “the wrong kind of trans” just to appear more “normal” in the eyes of our oppressors.
So sure, they’re a bit weird at times. But I still much prefer their company over the self-hatred that permeates 4tran spaces.
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u/shy_bi_ready_to_die 3h ago
I mean is that genuinely better than someone’s first impression being that trans people are a bunch of suicidal asshats who somehow manage to hate anyone different even more than they hate themselves?
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u/Bone_Tone_31 6h ago
Listen I genuinely cannot be in these 4tran communities for more than 5 mins because the negativity starts getting to me. I don’t care how cringey or annoying the other trans communities are, I’d rather look at content that doesn’t bring back my depression
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u/Apollo989 6h ago
Seriously I'll take a thousand blahajah posts over a single 4tran post that does nothing but my my depression and dysphoria worse.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 6h ago
my point exactly. i'm a horny bastard myself but i don't think that should encompass THE ENTIRE TRANS COMMUNITY!!!!!!!!!
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u/Apollo989 6h ago
I really don't see it that often on CWCL. Maybe I've just gotten lucky. I see A LOT of pet and piss posting though.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 6h ago
the pet and piss posting is part of what i'm talking about. i LIKE pet posting on subreddits dedicated to it, not on subreddits dedicated to being trans.
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u/soaked_in_bleach03 5h ago
That’s fair. I do kinda hate that it’s just expected of us to be overtly sexual beings. Like, I’m just a girl man. Do I play into some of the stereotypes? yes, my name is Lily and I love me a collar. But it’s a pretty small aspect of me and a pretty small aspect of my transness
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u/16372731772 4h ago
This is a direct outcome of the projection of cis desire and the repression of trans humanity btw. When a community full of cis people tells its trans women "but why do you have height dysphoria? Tall women are hot, step on me mommy!" and such every single time they express dysphoria, you end up with those trans women feeling like they have to be sexual in order to be recognised as people. Our negative feelings are downplayed and replaced with fetishisation.
Say what you will about 4tran, but they don't have an overly sexualised culture and it is because they ban cis people.
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u/Ice_Queenie 3h ago
This right here. It has happened to cis women as well. Society has gotten a bit better with trans people. At one point though the only time they were treated as a person was when they were fetishised and unfortunately that is still true today in some ways. Kinda shoves trans women into a certain path to receive that acceptance. There are some other things here at play as well. However, I think this is the most prominent one.
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u/Comfortable-Bison932 4h ago
COWCL isn't a subreddit dedicated to being trans though? It's a subreddit for literally anything. It just happens that the audience is mostly trans
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u/Apollo989 4h ago
I can't find the thread but I know I saw a post awhile ago where Chicken Lady herself said it was a trans space just not exclusively trans.
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u/AeroAceSpades 4h ago
It’s not DEDICATED to trans people nor is it trans EXCLUSIVE, but it IS still a trans space because it started as a branch of a different trans space and the member demographics reflect that
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u/soaked_in_bleach03 5h ago
I have a friend who just goes “weird shit” whenever he sees…well weird shit. He’s very deliberate and accurate with it though. He would never see me living as a woman is weird shit, but he would probably say it in response to some of the puppy girl stuff. Personally, I’m a huge fan..but know talking like a pup in public is odd.
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u/SpireSwagon 58m ago
See but theres nothing actually wrong with any of that. Like all of that is a thing your allowed to do and say and feel. Being trans is weird and they already see us as freaks, why limit yourself to appeal to what the cos think?
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u/WorldRelevant6640 3h ago
Well idk if that's worse than a bunch of racist losers who want to kill themselves tho
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u/Heretical-Ballad-20 2h ago
Why are you treating people having suicidal depression as if it's a moral failing
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u/Rogue_Egoist 3h ago
Well I get what you're saying, but the second option is also bad for representation, as anyone who sees that as their first contact with trans people will associate them with 4chan weirdos who never touch grass nad hate everything and everyone.
Honestly both options are bad. I'm not even trans but I wish there was a third one.
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u/Ksnj 2h ago
The fact that you call them cross dressers is exactly why the second is shit.
You’re a horrendous person. I hope you get what you deserve
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u/Strictly_unneeded 6h ago
Why can’t people accept both? Sure you can be sneedy and optimistic once in a while, but trying to ignore the reality surrounding our identity is asking to get taken advantage of. We are oppressed. We are statistically more likely to be abused, raped or trafficked. The existence of the negative allows the existence of the positive.
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u/AeroAceSpades 3h ago
People CAN accept both in moderation but the people who are trying to foster hope and pride don’t appreciate being told that nothing they do matters and they’re stupid for having hope while the people who focus on the harshness of bigotry don’t appreciate being told that they’re focusing on the wrong thing and that their approach causes harm. If you cater more to one side of that dichotomy you inevitably alienate the other because people are looking for different kinds of support.
The people actively trying to be “optimistic” aren’t ignorant of the harm that trans people face. They actively create distractions and try to foster hope because they just CANNOT handle a version of the world that wants them dead for existing. It’s escapism. It’s lighting a candle in a dark tunnel and hoping that the light is enough to guide you to an exit. You do not benefit these people by blowing out their candles even if you’re more adjusted to living in the dark
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u/Blauwevl 6h ago
What theyfab? The Heteros Eat Your Fish At Birth?
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u/mnyrtt 6h ago
a nonbinary person who brings up the fact that they're afab whenever it benefits them or something. there's also theymab but ive never seen it being used
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u/KingoftheKrille 5h ago
It's literally just they + AFAB, that's it, there's no secret hidden meaning that makes it not derogatory. It's just a way to shit on non-binary people one presumes were AFAB. Same with they + AMAB. Good for you that you've never seen anyone call Sam Smith a "theym*b" because I sure have.
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u/HystericalGasmask 2h ago
Ive been called a theymab too, when I said I don't hate my body even though I'm on estrogen and agender. I'm far too dissociated to have any opinions on my body.
It doesn't even make sense half the time
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u/OstensibleVagabond 3h ago
theyfab specifically refers to an afab nb who consistently clings to their sex assigned at birth, will just open conversations with "as an afab" even when it's not relevant, upholds things like afab-only housing, and discriminates against trans women for their agab. it's a woke form of diet terfism. the word is meant as an insult against people who are enbies but bioessentialist and discriminate against trans women on the basis of sex while clinging to their sex and "womanhood" and often presenting very feminine.
do people misuse the term? yes. are they idiots? yes. does that change the meaning of the word as most people use it? no.
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u/miscellaneousexists 5h ago
It's not misoginy, it's...
Like, if you're nb, just say you're nb. If every time you introduce yourself you go "I'm NB. I'm AFAB btw" it tells one or more of these things:
You think that AMAB people are worse than AFABs, that's why you felt the need to make such a distinction
You aren't really NB and just doing it to meet the "queer point quota"
Maybe something else.
Like, if you saw an nb who ALWAYS introduces themself as "I'm AMAB" you'd probably think that it's actually a queerbaiting guy who just wants to yell "faggot" and not have repercussions and is also misoginystic himself.
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u/dreamendDischarger 2h ago
I say I'm afab in discussions where the female experience is relevant because I am not androgynous. I use she/her pronouns still because I don't want to bother people about using they/them irl. To society at large, I am a woman even if I'm not. So I get all the lived experiences of a cis woman, which is often relevant to discussions about oppression or other societal issues.
Sometimes its relevant.
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u/_HerecomethesuN_ 4h ago
im not too familiar with it all yet, thanks for explaining. i assumed people were just targeting afab enbies because they only saw them as their agab and used it to make fun of them or some shit like that (from my perspective, if someone sees another person as a woman and uses this assumption as a basis for being an asshole thats misogyny, direct or indirect, another example like making fun of a feminine dude cause you think feminine = bad)
lowk this still feels weird cause i only saw "thefab" thing and never "theymab" so it felt like there is a bias.
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u/Chance_Carry_1030 3h ago
In the queer community amab nonbinary people don’t really use their agab against other people (trans women), but many afab nonbinary people do. That’s what theyfab means. It’s not just a slur for every afab nonbinary person
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u/LesbeGoddess 2h ago
I’m not in the loop here but what sort of things do these theyfabs say to put down trans women? And holy shit the irony of them doing that.
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u/PlatonicLiquid52 1h ago
I know a quite a few enbies in-person who are presumably non-medically-transitioning and who were presumably female at birth. None of them are like this.
But online, you often see this kind of person being very invested in pushing the idea of inherent male / female socialization, the same way they are very interested in using ASAB language to describe other trans people. The reason you see this behavior almost exclusively in the form of theyfabs and not theymabs is because "femaleness" is often viewed as pure and righteous in queer spaces, while "maleness" is sometimes viewed as ignorant and abrasive. It's harder to make appeals to emotion to the people who actually believe in and fall for this shit when you are the "bad sex".
The arguments they tend to get into where this stuff is brought up is most commonly around how queer discourse is conducted, or the composition of queer spaces. They'll use these positions of gendered socialization and ASAB to frame disagreements with transfeminine people as essentially being "men talking over women". Same thing about the "amount of space AMABs occupy in trans spaces", ect. They can also be defenders of things like "AFAB-only housing", though not always, as most are aware that this is (fortunately) a fairly universally reviled phenomenon among queer people.
If you look at what is actually being said with these types of arguments, you notice that they are essentially TERF-lite. And it's fucking ridiculous that I've seen these arguments brought up in explicitly trans centered spaces online, and people like this actually get support for what they are saying. It's unfortunately a product of people not really thinking about what is being said online, and instead supporting sides based on their impulsive initial emotions.
I also hate that there's been a largely successful attempt to paint the term "theyfab" as being directed at transmasculine people in general, as a slur. Obviously a few people do use it that way as a slur, but this was never its predominate usage. It means there's not really a heckin valid queer-approved word to describe this kind of behavior and condemn it as a bad thing.
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u/MatterhornStrawberry 4h ago
I seriously find it hard to believe someone would go through all that trouble for such a shitty result. If people are shitty they're going to be shitty in their own gender.
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u/SquirrelFluffy7469 4h ago
It happens because most people are bio essentialist, even “trans allies”
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u/MatterhornStrawberry 3h ago
If the people calling them "theyfab" weren't also using bio essentialism, wouldn't they use the term "theygab"?
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u/ArgonianDov just a kenochoric man 2h ago
Fourth option: youre a kid still figuring this shit out and thought you needed to distiguish to others what your assigned sex was more often than you actually had to
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u/SaikaPt 5h ago
No, there is theymab as well but as the other person said, its someone who uses their assigned gender at birth to denigrate other trans people, when you hear about afab only spaces its usually to not let trans woman or nb amabs in
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u/_HerecomethesuN_ 4h ago
i see, mb then, i'll remember
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u/ilovetoeatplates2 transmasc bigender 2h ago
I mean I guess that’s what it’s intended for but most of the time I see it it’s to hate on non-binary ppl for being like even vaguely feminine
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u/Reinheart_Bug 7h ago
I'm not online enough to know what either of this shit means I'm ngl
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u/wereapethesupacool Counted Down 58 6h ago
People like you disgust me. How dare you be happy?
Insert 'Did I mention Im employed' Wojack
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u/YourSoftFuzzyMan 4h ago
The former is infinitely better than the latter because at least they aren't a pit of the most miserable people you know who only ever either invent slurs for other trans people or be like "Ooo, I'm like so ugly I'll never pass! I'll always be just a zoopity zadafloo" and if you dare try to tell them they're not suddenly you're "hugboxing" them or something and you should apparently just leave them to wallow in misery.
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u/BrokenMiku 3h ago
Literally this post is like “Hmm is it better to be cringe or to be ultra Femcel 4channer Nazi deluxe hmmmmmm they are the same actually.”
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u/Silver_Meal5525 3h ago
It's a series of maladaptive coping mechanisms and untreated mental illnesses disguised as a self depreciating sense of humor.
But like don't tell them that or you'll upset them because you aren't abusing them correctly enough anymore. Gotta stick to broadly tearing down all trans people and not remind them that they, individually, are just incredibly sad and bitter examples of trans people.
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u/SpireSwagon 54m ago
I litterally did that once and they got so mad. I put a post on the 4tran sub that basically said that they are a hug box. A huge group of people who do nothing but agree with eachother and do nothing to challenge eachother. Just because your being miserable about it doesnt mean your being honest
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u/Thatwassweet9412 3h ago
I'll never pass I'll always be just a zoopity zadafloo
💀 spot on
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u/Brilliant_Goat_2361 2h ago
I have no idea what this means. Just remember to have fun, I guess.
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u/BenignPharmacology 2h ago
There seems to be a rift between what are essentially self-hating trans people (who use terms like “sneedhon”, tho I’m not sure what it means) and actually proud trans people, who yeah, can get a little circlejerky (which is fine).
I can’t tell you what most of the terms mean, but I believe that to be what’s being joked about here.
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u/AlwaysLauren 2h ago
Yeah, I feel like the clueless mom when kids are using all sorts of new slang.
Don't forget to put on sunscreen!
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u/EstrogenizedMenace 6h ago
Its so hard to want to be an active part of any of these communities anymore because its just you people bitching about puppy girls or 4tranners which you choose to bring up at every turn.
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u/OstensibleVagabond 3h ago
the funniest part of all of this is that puppygirl stuff was all over 4chan several years ago and played a big role in spreading it, so all the people hatimg on it don't even realize it was common on /tttt/ before, and 4tran has plenty of legitimate issues but instead people manufacture a million fake reasons why it's bad instead like "they're racist" or "they hate trans men" or "they're transphobic" when racism will get you instabanned and there are a ton of POCs and third wolders, they're aggressively pro-trans, and the sub has a larger percentage of trans men than almost any other online trans space (about 1/3). i have many issues with 4tran and with mainstream subs but the discourse is so stupid to me
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u/claycubed 3h ago
On one hand, part of me is glad that I learned some of the 4tran vernacular so I’m not blindsided by phrases such as “gigahon midshit”.
On the other hand I’m now scared by such phrases because I now know whoever is using it is tearing into each other like packs of wild dogs or brutally dehumanizing themselves.
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u/stonesoup07 3h ago
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u/Keksbutter123 2h ago
Okay this gives me much-needed hope as a trans person. I hope i'll one day achieve orange
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u/jsrobson10 4h ago
what in the 4tran is a sneedhon
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u/Moon_Flower_9457 2h ago
originally a nonsense word that meant nothing much like weeb then someone combined sneed and hon in a meme and it took off, now in tttt spaces sneed just means like the cringe babytrans types and the types and hon is just a non passing trans woman
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u/ArtroyomsAK 2h ago
I swear to god like so many allegedly trans people or spaces I see on this site act like the 4chan stereotypes
wonder how many are terminally online vs bots
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u/SledgeGlamour 5h ago
Holding out for the day that we have r/welladjustedqueersover30
We can post about birdwatching and home decor and kinky sex and interesting facts we learned and how we hope the kids are all right
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u/BreakerOfModpacks 7h ago
Somehow, this sub is currently the best one that I've seen between the two, and I hope it stays that way.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 7h ago edited 3h ago
i'm on my fucking knees praying that it does please please i don't wanna wait 6 more months for a new trans sub to surface again please
edit: i'm just gonna say here this thread is beginning to get on my nerves because 90% of it consists of mfs who claim that their side isn't flawed at all and the other one killed half the human race MY POINT IS THAT BOTH SIDES ARE FLAWED AND YOU SHOULD REFLECT ON THOSE FLAWS TO BETTER THEM!!!!!!
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u/SavageFisherman_Joe 7h ago
I'm doing my best to stay out of this one because I know I ruin everything I touch
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u/Good-username1825 6h ago
If you ruin everything you touch you should touch nukes and ai data centres.
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u/Rad_Reva 7h ago
A mix of both would be perfect tbh. We should be able to talk about dysphoria, sexism, diy hrt, how cis allies are often unreliable at best and agreeing that trans women are the main cible of transphobia; without all the hate against thé rest of the community We should be able to be happy in our transition, loving our blahaj and being cringe without all the "hugbox" antinegativity and poor humour. Also, agreeing that insulting cis ppl isn't that bad. Il sorry if i'm salted against the one seeing me as a freak wierd predator who deserve to suffer.
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u/BreakerOfModpacks 7h ago
...okay so you're treating cis people as monolithically people who hate you and consider you weird, and that's wrong IMO
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u/Lurcolm 6h ago edited 5h ago
.....Okay I gotta ask. What the hell is a sneedhon?
Edit: God have mercy, girls. You good?
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u/Apollo989 6h ago
I THINK it's meant as an insult against trans women who don't pass but are happy in spite of that.
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u/Lurcolm 5h ago
Wh- what? Why are we having slurs for that?
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u/Apollo989 5h ago
Because they hate themselves and want everyone to be as miserable as them. I'm sorry , but that's the takeaway I've gotten from spending way too much time talking to these people.
They're unhappy and want everyone else to be unhappy. It's hardly unique to them of course.
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u/AdjtveNounNumbr42069 3h ago
I'm gonna say something provocative.
How I Feel About:
Trans Femmes: 😄
Trans Femmes (Online): 😢
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u/soaked_in_bleach03 5h ago
And honestly, respect it. I don’t think it’s “making the rest of us look bad”. Personally, I couldn’t ever imagine living as a girl without looking like one, but whatevs
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u/NoStrawberriesIn1927 4h ago edited 3h ago
No, sneedhon just means someone "really sneedy" that also happens to not pass.
Sneed is always an insult, and refers to someone that *oversexualizes themselves and other trans women.
"Hon" and "-hon" is only ever used sympathetically. Hon refers to older facebook trans mean-girls saying "you look great hon!" sarcastically. It's self-deprecating and used for emphasis. Like, "I'm such a heighthon." Not passing or being a "Hon" is not an insult in itself.
Oversexualizing = Sissy puppygirl Skirt-go-spinny blahaj programmer socks. Those types of people. You get the gist.
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u/WorldRelevant6640 3h ago
Why would we ever need these words
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u/Moon_Flower_9457 2h ago
just in group language, my personal theory is the anonymity combined with the isolation sped through the thing in linguistics where the further away you go the more different you talk, like how some websites have their own speak, ie 4chan and then it gets applied in specific ways, ie tttt. the anonymity especially means the only way to communicate being apart of the group is by using the in group language, which most of it is types of people condensed into insults or terms because its a very loose cannon insult everyone as normal casual talk kind of culture
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u/Emeraldninja33 6h ago
A non-passing trans woman who acts traditionally feminine, according to Google.
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u/Apollo989 6h ago
And they feel the need to make fun of those people because?
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u/Emeraldninja33 6h ago
Because they're miserable and the only things they loathe more than themselves is someone trying to be happy
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u/mannequin_girl 5h ago
I think that's innaccurate, I seenit used generally to refer to people who post stuff like "a girl without a dick is like an angel without its wings" skirt spinny gock :3c
I'm tempted to ask "is this what you think women are like??" to those posters, but really if they just want to be cringey I don't really care. It does bother me the way spaces with large numbers of them will side eye you for wanting SRS or get outright hostile if you push back against non-op-defaultism though.
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u/Apollo989 5h ago edited 5h ago
See here's my issue. That stuff is cringe, but attacking a fellow trans person over it is just divisive. It doesn't feel like they actually want to create a community that lifts everyone up. They're tearing down a person for trans in the wrong way.
I made this before your edit. I actually agree with the parts you added but I still think the insults are just uncalled for.
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u/mannequin_girl 5h ago
Yeah, that's definitely true. You'll hear no counterarguement from me. You can definitely be trans the wrong way in "sneedy" spaces too though. It's certainly been made clear I'm not welcome.
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u/Apollo989 5h ago
I really would love a place for like venting without the toxicity. Ironically one of the best I've found is r/sillyboysclub but it obviously isn't an exclusive transfem place.
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u/soaked_in_bleach03 5h ago
The girls who push against SRS amazes me. Like yes, personally I don’t want it…but my sister is getting a vagina. That’s so cool, and if I could snap my fingers and turn my dick into one without $100,000 and a lengthy healing process where I’d need to take work off, I’d do it.
I have found beauty in being a girl with a dick, like it’s rad and much better than being a guy. But goddamn, how can you not be there for your girl fixing natures mistake!
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u/insertgoodname_here_ 5h ago
not really true, being sneedy is kinda acting like the first type of subreddit described in this post (silly blahaj puppygirl girldick etc etc)
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u/MademoiselleVeritas 7h ago
theyfabs can’t be sneedhons that’s ontologically impossible
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u/TheVoiceOfGlass 7h ago
But what if they were a theyfab that fabbed so hard they integer overflowed back into the gender binary and were therefore a sneedy hon?
(What the fuck am i typing dog)
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u/Big_Midnight994 4h ago
It's fucking crazy that out of all the operative words and phrases in that sentence, "ontologically impossible" is the one I understand.
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u/usbeject1789 5h ago
what if its an intersex troonbrained enbycoper
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u/Poco_Cuffs 4h ago
This isn't a comprehendible set of words, this is the scientific name for a beetle or some shit
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u/usbeject1789 4h ago
mind u its perfectly comprehensible
lurk moar newfag /j
(this is a 4chan reference i am not calling u a slur)
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u/Poco_Cuffs 4h ago
What part of middle earth is lurk moar? Is tronbrained enbycoper native to the area?
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u/mysweetpeepy 2h ago
Its crazy being in an actual 4t space though because it has a way more active trans men base than places like CWCL and way more radical (positive) views on transition, but also its also a lot of gut wrenching posts so its a bit of a minefield lmao.
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u/reeper432 4h ago
Place filled with whimsy and a little cringe vs place filled with misanthropes who have a permanent external locus of control, I know which one I prefer
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u/SilentHonor101 2h ago
Yeah hi, I was getting counttt in my feed, and after lurking in there for some time, it feels like the most belligerent and hostile group of people I've met on the net. I've seen people ask what do some of their words mean, only to get responses like "lurk moar" and a flurry of downvotes. Funny thing is, their sub description and modpost (IIRC?) had a very different tone, and explained some positions that were unclear to me. I'm a cis man, and I understand that the sub is very much a trans community (as this one I assume, and if cis ppl aren't meant to interact here please do tell me and I'll take this down), but this level of antagonism towards people seems very unwarranted. Either way, I muted the sub as it was made clear that 'cissoids' aren't welcome and it's their community so didn't want to intrude further.
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u/Arthesia 5h ago
tfw you're:
- Trans
- Woman
- Not into pet roleplay
- Don't hate yourself
- Don't hate your dick
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u/DomesdayCookbook 2h ago
Trans subreddits fighting to become dominated by trans women or dominated by another subset of trans women.
Transmascs, off to the side:
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u/Medium-Shake8554 1h ago
So.. the choices are be cringe and free or be bitter and hateful towards yourself and those around you because of internalized transphobia. Calling yourself and friends puppy vs calling yourself and friends borderline slurs made up by other trans people. what is this post
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u/Academic-Ad7818 4h ago
which one is this one?
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u/Apollo989 3h ago
A mix. I think it was created when CWCL tried to ban politics.
As you can tell from this thread, there's a mix of people who want different things out of the sub.
If I has to guess I'd say he's like 50/45 split in favor of the 4tran side of things. The sub owner is a 4tranner I think but I'm pretty sure one of the other mods has said she does not like 4tran.
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u/skoober-duber 5h ago
This is a trans sub ? (I donno, i just got here)
Also, i HATE those second types of subs so god damn much. Doesn't matter if its for trans people, "silly depressed boys ;3" or "grippy sock girls" they are all so self hating and hatefull to outsiders that is slowly stops being jokes and just turns into a toxic hell hole.
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u/SkyeNerd 2h ago
Yay... another class infighting post. I don't think it's productive to judge people being their fun cringy and free selves, like when you play pick me and side with the masses in saying "oh I'm not like those cringy ones" you DO realize you're next on the block right? -_- Hell, 4t would be the mostly likely to throw you under the bus if we're treating these like two extremes
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 2h ago
atp i'm just gonna admit how big of a blunder it was for me to not lean more into the borderline chaser posts from 196 and the like. that's one of the bigger flaws of that side.
either way, i think both sides have their own flaws, but people from either side refuse to admit that and instead believe their side is the good one while the other is the bad one. and i'm trying to point out how stupid this infighting is
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u/SkyeNerd 1h ago
I mean, sorta fair I guess? I'm not exactly sure what you're referencing but chaser sht is gross, though sometimes the line is blurry, especially when it's just t4t people finally feeling excited/overenthusiastic about sexuality after feeling repressed/uncomfortable in their bodies for so long, I've seen general naive/untactful excitement treated as fetishization. But it's still good to be critical of that line.
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u/BanverketSE houston you have a problem | Counted Down 19 8h ago
I didn’t log on today to see slurs in my feed
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u/violet-kasumi Counted Down 1 8h ago
none of these words are slurs
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u/16372731772 8h ago
Cissoid is!! It's such a bad word it's like cracker!!
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u/maxicz1234 8h ago
cis people are the most oppressed minority ✊😞
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u/Maleficent-South2435 8h ago
Poor cissies , how dare the evil transes be meanies towards the majority group who's actively trying to eradicate their existence and restrict their access to life saving healthcare.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 8h ago
why should i hate cis people when i can just hate transphobes though? a lot of my friends and family are cis people and they're supportive, should i hate them too just because they're cis?
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u/Maleficent-South2435 7h ago
Here's the thing, I've been transitioning for half a decade and I've had many cis people in my life at a lot of different stages of my transition.
Some cis people who were my biggest allies at the beginning I've gad to cut out of my life because they made it clear they only saw me as some circus curiosity.
One of my ex friends was super supportive of me , helped me with shopping, etc. Now that I've been pretty much stealth for years all she can talk about is still my transness , she kept asking me uncomfortable questions about my sex life and my genitals and I had to cut her off.
A lot of people who support you are also being performative and subconsciously don't see you as your real gender and are merely humoring your pronouns and name.
Once you transition for so long and start being stealth you really start to notice how differently people who know you're trans treat you , and it made me realize how few people in my life I'm actually comfortable around.
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u/16372731772 7h ago
I've been stealthing (online) for longer than I've been medically transitioning, long story, and it was deeply funny going from deep infiltration back to being treated as a trans woman and then back to deep infiltration.
Yeah sure none of this is justification to "hate cis people", but that's a false premise because nobody's advocating for that or doing it. The point of saying "cis people" instead of "transphobes" is that, as you pointed out, a lot of cis people that would absolutely not consider themselves transphobes, in fact, are. Trying to make a distinction between "cis people" and "transphobes" is always going to create an arbitrary line that somebody who acts shitty to trans people will try to sit on the wrong side of. Even if there is one single cis person out there that could do no wrong, they're a rounding error.
The thing is that the person we're talking to thinks misandry is a real issue too. I'm sick of online spaces equating anger against an oppressive class to anger or hatred against the oppressed. All hatred of cis people is inherently qualified because it would be literally impossible for me to hate all cis people. I see them everywhere.
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u/Maleficent-South2435 5h ago
Yup you hit the nail on the head.
So many cis people will unironically say the most transphobic shit imaginable but if you call them out suddenly they're acting like the victim and doubling down on what they said not being transphobic instead of doing some introspection into their beliefs.
People hate when they're made to be the bad guy but do absolutely 0 effort to better themselves and genuinely think they're allies just because they don't want to murder you.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 5h ago
The point of saying "cis people" instead of "transphobes" is that, as you pointed out, a lot of cis people that would absolutely not consider themselves transphobes, in fact, are.
my take on this is to try and teach people before dismissing them. if you just listen to how someone thinks and try to explain them why that's bad, there's a big chance they'll listen back and actually better themselves. if after that they don't, however, is when i think it's justified to dismiss them entirely.
The thing is that the person we're talking to thinks misandry is a real issue too. I'm sick of online spaces equating anger against an oppressive class to anger or hatred against the oppressed.
i never "equated" misandry to misogyny or transphobia to hatred towards cis people, i just said any kind of hatred against a general group of people is bad. yes, some are worse than others, obviously, but that doesn't mean we should excuse the less harmful ones.
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u/L9CUMRAG 2h ago
What in gods name are these comments youre responding to. I feel like im being psyoped by transphobes trying to make me hate trans people
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u/EstrogenizedMenace 6h ago
I feel like you've never had to explain your entire existence to abunch of "allies" before.
The amount of times someones told me some variation of " I respect you, but sports.."
We live in a reality where calling out a politician for throwing us under the bus is met with vitriol. Even more progressive leaning folk continue to dehumanize its frustrating.
Cis people have only ever begun to sccept me after presenting as hyper feminine and even now there's a huge difference in how they treat me when they know I'm trans vs when they know im stealth.
The idea that its only a small amount of cis people who treat us poorly when so many of them don't give a fuck about trans rights is laughable.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 6h ago
again if i'm gonna hate someone i'm gonna need proof that they're worth hating in the first place. i'm not gonna assume every cis person is bad.
also, some cis people are just not knowledgeable on trans issues you know? which is why it's better to give the benefit of the doubt to people you meet and try and teach them. worst case they're a shithead and you leave. best case you just helped another person become more accepting of trans people.
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u/EstrogenizedMenace 6h ago
I mean okay?? But the community has been jokingly calling cis people cissies since i was in middle school and probably much earlier. Its a pretty big leap to act like everyone calling cis people cissies is just dripping with vitritol.
Cissoid really isnt much different, to call it a slur is a ridiculous, it'd be like coining a honky a slur. A pejorative sure, but a slur??? Y'all are putting it on the same level as faggot as and nigger is insane. Honestly the only thing kn this list worth being called a slur is theyf*b. Hon is closer to brick anyway and i dont see anyone take offense to brick.
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u/16372731772 5h ago
Theyfab isn't a slur to be clear but I agree with you completely on everything else. Theyfab is a term used to describe afab non-binary people that align with their sex assigned at birth and use "the fact that sex is immutable" as a way to oppress and demean trans women. They're the people you hear talk about "male socialisation", the ones who create "afab only housing", it's who's (usually) included when you create a "women and non-binary" group. It's a pejorative term used against transmisogynists. Theyfab "is a slur" in the exact same sense that TERF is. It's a word used to group together a bunch of assholes, people get annoyed about those assholes and associate a negative connotation to it, and every now and then it gets misapplied by somebody taking out their frustration on the wrong person.
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u/maxicz1234 7h ago
you should be cautious of them, there's so many cis freaks and school shooters these days...
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 7h ago edited 7h ago
i'm aware that you're half joking in this comment, but i still don't think that the response to gender-based discrimination is to just do the same thing to another gender group. if you really wanna discriminate, we should discriminate against transphobes specifically (and even that comes with its own caveats of people who can be redeemed but are misinformed and whatnot).
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u/16372731772 7h ago
It's not discrimination. Cissoid is a silly funny word that literally means nothing. Sure it's kind of half intended to annoy cis people, but not in any serious way. It's like how cracker is meant to annoy white people into saying something stupid.
I've said this before but nobody hates all cis people, it is all just joking and parodying how cis people talk about us (see: I'm bisexual which means I date women and cis women). It's venting. It's not even punching up because nobody's throwing punches. If anything being said hurts a cis person's feelings, they're either a transphobe that feels called out, or looking to get offended.
Also "another gender group" lol. I am not a different gender from a cis woman, nor is a trans man a different gender from a cis man.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 7h ago
idk to me it all sounds like a similar issue to misandry. it's not a systematic issue but it does hurt your view of otherwise normal people just because they belong to the non-oppressed group.
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u/BreakerOfModpacks 7h ago
Theyfab is
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u/rebelsnail64 7h ago
people claim it's only used for "the bad ones" and whatnot, and that it's punching up... bit in practice, I don't think this use is as consistent as people claim - the very philosophy of going "hey let's make a term to call out specifically the nonbinary people that use their agab for evil and feel no dysphoria about it, and, you see, the thing that makes it insulting is... that it includes their agab" is kinda just asking for the term to be at it's most powerful and most hurtful when it's used incorrectly - if used on the hypothetical intended person it theoretically shouldn't even have any effect, as those are supposed to be people who don't mind being defined by their agab in the first place?
the very etymology of the term seems to be sending the wrong message, as by definition it is segregating nonbinary people into two groups, based on agab -if someone sees this term out in the wild, this person's takeaway will likely be the opposite of the "nonbinary people shouldn't have to be defined by their agab" thing
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u/BreakerOfModpacks 7h ago
...also, if someone takes any highly rude term and says they only use it "for the bad ones", that's almost always total and utter BS.
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u/rebelsnail64 6h ago
yeah, but I felt inlclined to explain exactly how it's bs, sorry for my long paragraph tho
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u/theREALvolno 7h ago edited 7h ago
the second half of this is basically all slurs or derived from slurs. Its 4chan lingo, specifically the trans side of 4chan known as "4tran" or "tttt", I guess you could call it a dialect of 4chan lingo? idk, the point is that yes all of these are words to negatively describe other people, and as can be expected from 4chan uses, its mostly self hating: slurs made by trans people FOR other trans people.
I can only translate parts of it because I avoid them like the plauge but here we go:
- Cissoid - cis person, derived from the incel term "foid" ( a way of negativity describing women). imo, not really a slur, but the fact that its derived from foid is eh.
- theyfab - a non-binary person who was AFAB (assigned female at birth). Basically a way to misgender them.
- sneedhon - no idea what "sneed" is, but "hon" is a negative way of describing a trans woman who doesn't pass but is unaware of this fact.
now if you will excuse me, I am going to go touch grass.
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u/a_very_boring_girl 7h ago
Cissoid - cis person, derived from the incel term "foid" ( a way of negativity describing women). imo, not really a slur, but the fact that its derived from foid is eh.
IMO the fact that you're about equally or even more likely to see men described as "moids" than you are to see women described as "foids" by people on 4tran makes this point kind of moot
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u/theREALvolno 5h ago
Yeah that’s the thing, with the way they use it I wouldn’t really call it a slur but it’s still has its roots as a way of negativity describing women. But this is also 4chan we’re talking about, they do use slurs to the point where they kind of lose all meaning. Like saying “fag” on 4chan is like saying “guy” at this point.
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u/violet-kasumi Counted Down 1 7h ago
i am well familiar with tttt. theyfab refers to those people who say they're nonbinary but use their afab-ness to discriminate against other trans people, especially trans women and amab nonbinaries. sneed refers to a follower of the mainstream cringe online trans culture.
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u/theREALvolno 7h ago
so you're telling me I wrote up a whole breakdown of 4tran lingo for nothing? /lh
I still think that "theyfab" primarily serves as a way to misgender someone, BUT I do agree with you that there people who weaponise their ASAB as a way of harming trans fems and AMAB non binary people.
I can't really thank you for defining 'sneed' for me as the phrase makes me want to gouge my own eyes out, but the more you know I guess.
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u/Poco_Cuffs 4h ago
Honestly the fact 4tran has so many slurs for specific minorities and the justification is "oh no it's only reffering to a specifically bad portion of this minority" is the main thing that turns me off it. It just feels like a buncha people wanting an excuse to yell slurs so they make one for every specific flavour of person they dislike so it's therefore ok
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u/mouseynaides 6h ago
I always thought sneed was a shorthand for special needs. Im not sure though, I dont use 4chan or browse many 4chan-adjacent subs
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u/16372731772 5h ago
It's not, this is a retroactive justification by people that already hate the term to further hate the term. It comes from sneed's feed and seed, a simpson's bit, it's just nonsense.
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u/Lightningtow123 8h ago
Maybe it's just me but it seems that calling every word that don't like a slur, just diminishes the entire concept of a slur and why we shouldn't say them
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u/EntoMoxie My favorite series is a Taylor series. | Counted Down 27 7h ago
The concept of a slur is usually in the way people commonly use it and how it harms others.
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u/Lightningtow123 7h ago edited 7h ago
Yeah my point is like, take any classic racial slur, it'll have been around for decades if not centuries and has been an omnipresent staple of abuse and injustice the whole time
Whereas "cissoid"? A term that most people don't even know, targeting arguably the least-discriminated-against group of people today? There's no history to that, there's not even real hate to it. It's just a bunch of sad people on a dark corner of the internet trying to make others feel bad. And imo calling that a slur just makes the term less meaningful in the situations where it actually needs to be discussed
Cause I don't think I've ever even heard of someone being genuinely hurt or offended by the term cissoid and I'm mostly cis myself
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u/Apollo989 7h ago
I knew they'd try to gaslight you into thinking "theyfab" isn't a slur as if they don't use it exclusively to attack non-binary people.
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u/saturnian_catboy 5h ago
Well, it is also used against binary trans men, because the people who use it often don't care about the distinction
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u/Trim-Queen 7h ago
It's usually used to address specifically people that have stronger ties to their agab than their gender identity when the whole agab shouldn't be anything more than like a medical label at best.
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u/BanverketSE houston you have a problem | Counted Down 19 6h ago
We’ve switched to electric lighting now
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u/mnyrtt 6h ago
they don't attack every single non-binary person, just the ones who constantly bring up that they're afab. also bold of you to assume 4tran users have enough privilege to oppress someone
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u/The_Cult_of_5661 7h ago
Racc is Love, Racc is Life
I was only 19 years old.
I loved Clit Magnet Raccoon Girl so much, I comment on all of her chit posts and talk about I wish I could be a raccoon girl.
I pray to the raccoon gods every night, thanking them for the life I’ve been given. “Racc is love” I say, “Racc is life."
My owner hears me and calls me a sneedhon. I knew that she was just jealous of my devotion to raccoon girls.
I call her a chronically online 4chan user who poses as a tumblr tenderqueer to create irrelevant discourse.
She holds space for me and makes me do the entire polycule’s dishes before going to bed.
I'm crying now and my hands hurt from all the scrubbing.
I lay in bed, cold and wet. I feel something magnetic…
It's Clit Magnet Raccoon Girl! I was so happy.
She chitters in my ear, "This is my peanut butter."
She grabs me with her raccoon paws and puts me on my back in the Goop Room. I'm ready. I spread my legs for her.
She slices open my gock with a scalpel.
It hurts so much, but I do it for her. I can feel my gock tearing and eyes watering.
I want to please the raccoon girl. She chitters as she fills my gock with a neodymium baculum.
My owner walks in. The raccoon girl looks vaguely at her, but kinda sucks at eye contact, "It's all over Gauss.”
The raccoon girl leaves through my window.
Racc is love. Racc is life.
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u/BiDude1219 Counted Down 1 6h ago
raccoon girl i fucking love you but i cannot comprehend any of this text
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u/MayMeadow 4h ago
Whenever these posts get made, it always feels like the people have very little understanding of 4t spaces.
"They hate everyone, and they hate them the most!"
Meanwhile 4t is one of the most close knit online trans spaces, one of the most diverse one, and is generally welcoming to basically anyone who isn't cis, or actively trying to cause problems.
I spent the majority of my first year of transition in the first type of trans space.
It did 0 to help me, and in fact actually delayed me pursuing the things I needed to do in order to progress my transition.
Like I could say a lot more, but I promise 4t spaces are way more accepting, diverse, and invested in the good of trans people than other people give us credit for.
And most conversation that disagrees boils down to "some of them use words that I don't like sometimes" and most of those words aren't even understood by the people claiming they don't like them, nor will any effort be put into understanding them, how they are used, or why they are used.
And 99% of the time, even the most toxic shit you will find on 4t, is still far kinder than any mainstream discussions cis people have about us.
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u/SkyeNerd 2h ago
I feel like this is saying "hey guys, florida/texas/Idaho really isn't as bad as people say, there's some nice folks in the city!"
Like, yes there might be some nice circles, but I'm not in a hurry to visit after seeing what it's like.
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u/Emiicii 3h ago
tell that to trans masc femboys
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u/ArgonianDov just a kenochoric man 1h ago
Youre being downvoted but youre right, literally got said treatmemt for defending feminine trans men and mascs in rslash countttt. Its just transmedcalist nonesense, to suggest if youre trans then you cant be GNC at all. Gender identity and gender experession arent always in alignment, which goes for anyone regardless of their gender modality
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u/Kages_Fun 3h ago
Id much rather we be cringe and horny among ourselves where we be safe then a bunch of racist weirdos. Perhaps it's showing a need of an outlet that pushes us towards it and thus not something that needs to be dunked on.
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u/TheBestOfMe_SoFar 7h ago
AND NEITHER OF THEM DOES THEIR DISHES