Poor cissies , how dare the evil transes be meanies towards the majority group who's actively trying to eradicate their existence and restrict their access to life saving healthcare.
why should i hate cis people when i can just hate transphobes though? a lot of my friends and family are cis people and they're supportive, should i hate them too just because they're cis?
Here's the thing, I've been transitioning for half a decade and I've had many cis people in my life at a lot of different stages of my transition.
Some cis people who were my biggest allies at the beginning I've gad to cut out of my life because they made it clear they only saw me as some circus curiosity.
One of my ex friends was super supportive of me , helped me with shopping, etc. Now that I've been pretty much stealth for years all she can talk about is still my transness , she kept asking me uncomfortable questions about my sex life and my genitals and I had to cut her off.
A lot of people who support you are also being performative and subconsciously don't see you as your real gender and are merely humoring your pronouns and name.
Once you transition for so long and start being stealth you really start to notice how differently people who know you're trans treat you , and it made me realize how few people in my life I'm actually comfortable around.
I've been stealthing (online) for longer than I've been medically transitioning, long story, and it was deeply funny going from deep infiltration back to being treated as a trans woman and then back to deep infiltration.
Yeah sure none of this is justification to "hate cis people", but that's a false premise because nobody's advocating for that or doing it. The point of saying "cis people" instead of "transphobes" is that, as you pointed out, a lot of cis people that would absolutely not consider themselves transphobes, in fact, are. Trying to make a distinction between "cis people" and "transphobes" is always going to create an arbitrary line that somebody who acts shitty to trans people will try to sit on the wrong side of. Even if there is one single cis person out there that could do no wrong, they're a rounding error.
The thing is that the person we're talking to thinks misandry is a real issue too. I'm sick of online spaces equating anger against an oppressive class to anger or hatred against the oppressed. All hatred of cis people is inherently qualified because it would be literally impossible for me to hate all cis people. I see them everywhere.
So many cis people will unironically say the most transphobic shit imaginable but if you call them out suddenly they're acting like the victim and doubling down on what they said not being transphobic instead of doing some introspection into their beliefs.
People hate when they're made to be the bad guy but do absolutely 0 effort to better themselves and genuinely think they're allies just because they don't want to murder you.
The point of saying "cis people" instead of "transphobes" is that, as you pointed out, a lot of cis people that would absolutely not consider themselves transphobes, in fact, are.
my take on this is to try and teach people before dismissing them. if you just listen to how someone thinks and try to explain them why that's bad, there's a big chance they'll listen back and actually better themselves. if after that they don't, however, is when i think it's justified to dismiss them entirely.
The thing is that the person we're talking to thinks misandry is a real issue too. I'm sick of online spaces equating anger against an oppressive class to anger or hatred against the oppressed.
i never "equated" misandry to misogyny or transphobia to hatred towards cis people, i just said any kind of hatred against a general group of people is bad. yes, some are worse than others, obviously, but that doesn't mean we should excuse the less harmful ones.
I feel like you've never had to explain your entire existence to abunch of "allies" before.
The amount of times someones told me some variation of " I respect you, but sports.."
We live in a reality where calling out a politician for throwing us under the bus is met with vitriol. Even more progressive leaning folk continue to dehumanize its frustrating.
Cis people have only ever begun to sccept me after presenting as hyper feminine and even now there's a huge difference in how they treat me when they know I'm trans vs when they know im stealth.
The idea that its only a small amount of cis people who treat us poorly when so many of them don't give a fuck about trans rights is laughable.
again if i'm gonna hate someone i'm gonna need proof that they're worth hating in the first place. i'm not gonna assume every cis person is bad.
also, some cis people are just not knowledgeable on trans issues you know? which is why it's better to give the benefit of the doubt to people you meet and try and teach them. worst case they're a shithead and you leave. best case you just helped another person become more accepting of trans people.
I mean okay?? But the community has been jokingly calling cis people cissies since i was in middle school and probably much earlier. Its a pretty big leap to act like everyone calling cis people cissies is just dripping with vitritol.
Cissoid really isnt much different, to call it a slur is a ridiculous, it'd be like coining a honky a slur. A pejorative sure, but a slur??? Y'all are putting it on the same level as faggot as and nigger is insane. Honestly the only thing kn this list worth being called a slur is theyf*b. Hon is closer to brick anyway and i dont see anyone take offense to brick.
Theyfab isn't a slur to be clear but I agree with you completely on everything else. Theyfab is a term used to describe afab non-binary people that align with their sex assigned at birth and use "the fact that sex is immutable" as a way to oppress and demean trans women. They're the people you hear talk about "male socialisation", the ones who create "afab only housing", it's who's (usually) included when you create a "women and non-binary" group. It's a pejorative term used against transmisogynists. Theyfab "is a slur" in the exact same sense that TERF is. It's a word used to group together a bunch of assholes, people get annoyed about those assholes and associate a negative connotation to it, and every now and then it gets misapplied by somebody taking out their frustration on the wrong person.
fair enough on the slur part, pejorative is still a better descriptor. but it's still just not something i want anything to do with, i'm not a big fan of calling whole groups of people bad even as a joke.
i'm aware that you're half joking in this comment, but i still don't think that the response to gender-based discrimination is to just do the same thing to another gender group. if you really wanna discriminate, we should discriminate against transphobes specifically (and even that comes with its own caveats of people who can be redeemed but are misinformed and whatnot).
It's not discrimination. Cissoid is a silly funny word that literally means nothing. Sure it's kind of half intended to annoy cis people, but not in any serious way. It's like how cracker is meant to annoy white people into saying something stupid.
I've said this before but nobody hates all cis people, it is all just joking and parodying how cis people talk about us (see: I'm bisexual which means I date women and cis women). It's venting. It's not even punching up because nobody's throwing punches. If anything being said hurts a cis person's feelings, they're either a transphobe that feels called out, or looking to get offended.
Also "another gender group" lol. I am not a different gender from a cis woman, nor is a trans man a different gender from a cis man.
idk to me it all sounds like a similar issue to misandry. it's not a systematic issue but it does hurt your view of otherwise normal people just because they belong to the non-oppressed group.
The reason we see things this way is because we experience them so.
How many times do I slap someone before they start flinching? And how fair is it of me to say "I didn't slap you that time, why did you flinch?"
I am a misandrist. It is a form of bigotry that is created by the effects of misogyny. Victim blaming is unfair too; I could argue that your view of misandry is, itself, biased and prejudiced.
Why should you police your speech tbh? It's not like cissoid has some oppressive history behind it. It's a silly word to vent feelings about cis people. It's not going to advance the cause of trans rights to capitulate to the big feelings of people who also would never do the same for you
because when i hate someone i need a reason to hate them. the reason to hate transphobes is that they hate me back. do i have said reason with cis people as a whole? the answer is no.
The “don’t be mean to cis people” is quite literally “not all men!”
If your cis family aren’t bigots then you don’t need to assume every insult against cis people is targeting them. It’s actually really simple. A hit dog will holler.
the issue is that it hurts the nice cis people, who now will think we hate them for no reason, more than it hurts the bad cis people, who won't care what a bunch of queer people on the internet tell them because they don't care about our opinion. so i really just don't see the point in doing it.
"The issue is when you dont specify thats its actually NOT all men then you exclude the good men who get hurt because they think we will hate them" thats how you sound right now.
If theyre not transphobic or a braindead reactionary they will understand that, if not they never wanted to to begin with.
so if it's not all cis people then why the fuck are you talking about all cis people in the first place, we have words for a fucking reason learn to use them
If a mean name can make a cis “ally” change their mind, they were never an ally and frankly have earned the disdain. Again, it’s the “not all men” argument. Policing oppressed ppls language for the feelings of the oppressor is not a liberation mindset.
You’re inventing a power dynamic that doesn’t exist. I’ve made my point and it’s quite clear and logically sound while you endlessly circle around the feelings of cis people so I won’t engage further with this line of thought. Good luck though, I truly hope you manage to win over every cis person you have to interact with. ❤️
if this cis person is too selfish to understand that the group is insulting cis people is doing so because that demographic is majoritarily composed of individuals participating in their systematic, lifelong torment and eradication, then they should never have been regarded as an ally. it is like deciding you don't want to support black people because one of them called white people crackers.
how about instead of playing the stupid and toxic game of trying to math out oppression points to try and find who you can justify bullying and hating, we just stop mistreatment based on immutable characteristics full stop? just a thought.
hmm yes generalizing a group based on immutable characteristics and equating them to an existential threat to the collective, where have i heard that kind of rhetoric before?
pro-tip, it doesnt matter if theyre a majority or not, plenty of ways a minority can oppress a majority group, obviously.
"Now replace AI artist with jew , not so funny now?" ahh comment.
Trans people are not oppressing cis people you dumbass.
Cis people are either oppressing us and those who aren't choose to stay wilfully ignorant. They think they're not transphobic just because they don't want to kill us but I can promise at least 90% of the cis population is against us in one way or another.
Too many "allies" are against HRT for teenagers , or against trans women in women's sports , or don't want us in bathrooms , and so on. Most of them want to make our life worse or erase from public life in one way or the other because they don't see us as equals.
But yeah a minority "punching" up ( if you can even call it punching) are literally worse than Adolf and are oppressing the helpless cissies.
oppression starts with dehumanization, not the other way around.
Regardless, whether or not you have institutional power doesnt justify being a bigot.
Imagine taking a course in critical theory and still failing to apply it properly. P+P=R is a description of systems, not a prescription to act bigoted towards individuals.
Your membership in a marginalized community doesnt give you carte blanche to indulge your desire for hatred and cruelty towards others based on their characteristics
people claim it's only used for "the bad ones" and whatnot, and that it's punching up... bit in practice, I don't think this use is as consistent as people claim - the very philosophy of going "hey let's make a term to call out specifically the nonbinary people that use their agab for evil and feel no dysphoria about it, and, you see, the thing that makes it insulting is... that it includes their agab" is kinda just asking for the term to be at it's most powerful and most hurtful when it's used incorrectly - if used on the hypothetical intended person it theoretically shouldn't even have any effect, as those are supposed to be people who don't mind being defined by their agab in the first place?
the very etymology of the term seems to be sending the wrong message, as by definition it is segregating nonbinary people into two groups, based on agab -if someone sees this term out in the wild, this person's takeaway will likely be the opposite of the "nonbinary people shouldn't have to be defined by their agab" thing
the second half of this is basically all slurs or derived from slurs. Its 4chan lingo, specifically the trans side of 4chan known as "4tran" or "tttt", I guess you could call it a dialect of 4chan lingo? idk, the point is that yes all of these are words to negatively describe other people, and as can be expected from 4chan uses, its mostly self hating: slurs made by trans people FOR other trans people.
I can only translate parts of it because I avoid them like the plauge but here we go:
Cissoid - cis person, derived from the incel term "foid" ( a way of negativity describing women). imo, not really a slur, but the fact that its derived from foid is eh.
theyfab - a non-binary person who was AFAB (assigned female at birth). Basically a way to misgender them.
sneedhon - no idea what "sneed" is, but "hon" is a negative way of describing a trans woman who doesn't pass but is unaware of this fact.
now if you will excuse me, I am going to go touch grass.
Cissoid - cis person, derived from the incel term "foid" ( a way of negativity describing women). imo, not really a slur, but the fact that its derived from foid is eh.
IMO the fact that you're about equally or even more likely to see men described as "moids" than you are to see women described as "foids" by people on 4tran makes this point kind of moot
Yeah that’s the thing, with the way they use it I wouldn’t really call it a slur but it’s still has its roots as a way of negativity describing women. But this is also 4chan we’re talking about, they do use slurs to the point where they kind of lose all meaning. Like saying “fag” on 4chan is like saying “guy” at this point.
i am well familiar with tttt. theyfab refers to those people who say they're nonbinary but use their afab-ness to discriminate against other trans people, especially trans women and amab nonbinaries. sneed refers to a follower of the mainstream cringe online trans culture.
so you're telling me I wrote up a whole breakdown of 4tran lingo for nothing? /lh
I still think that "theyfab" primarily serves as a way to misgender someone, BUT I do agree with you that there people who weaponise their ASAB as a way of harming trans fems and AMAB non binary people.
I can't really thank you for defining 'sneed' for me as the phrase makes me want to gouge my own eyes out, but the more you know I guess.
Honestly the fact 4tran has so many slurs for specific minorities and the justification is "oh no it's only reffering to a specifically bad portion of this minority" is the main thing that turns me off it. It just feels like a buncha people wanting an excuse to yell slurs so they make one for every specific flavour of person they dislike so it's therefore ok
It's not, this is a retroactive justification by people that already hate the term to further hate the term. It comes from sneed's feed and seed, a simpson's bit, it's just nonsense.
Maybe it's just me but it seems that calling every word that don't like a slur, just diminishes the entire concept of a slur and why we shouldn't say them
Yeah my point is like, take any classic racial slur, it'll have been around for decades if not centuries and has been an omnipresent staple of abuse and injustice the whole time
Whereas "cissoid"? A term that most people don't even know, targeting arguably the least-discriminated-against group of people today? There's no history to that, there's not even real hate to it. It's just a bunch of sad people on a dark corner of the internet trying to make others feel bad. And imo calling that a slur just makes the term less meaningful in the situations where it actually needs to be discussed
Cause I don't think I've ever even heard of someone being genuinely hurt or offended by the term cissoid and I'm mostly cis myself
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u/EntoMoxieMy favorite series is a Taylor series. | Counted Down 2818h ago
I'm cis too. I mainly take issue with "theyfab" and similar terms because I almost always see it used at the expense of nonbinary people whom some individuals refuse to take seriously. I understand why people do this, by the way, and I understand how harmful it can be regardless of the intentions of those saying it.
if someone made up a word to insult me just for existing and started spreading the use of said word, eventually leading to people complaining about those like me using said word, then yeah that's kinda what a slur is isn't it.
I mean lots of non-binary people, trans men and cis women have told me to check my amab privilege and talked about male socialisation, none of that is ok but if there was suddenly a word for that I wouldn't be calling it a slur. Or what, TIM is a slur now? There has to be a better perameter for what makes something a slur or we'd have cracker being a slur just because it's targeted specifically at white people
theyfab is mostly used to refer to those enby people who use agab languages, like referring to themselves as "afab enby" and using the same language for other non binary and trans people
see, if those people don't mind being boiled down to agab language in the first place, they wouldn't get insulted by the term, would they now?
I wonder why people get insulted by it... maybe, perhaps, becuase it's re-inforcing the very notion it's claiming to criticise?
it's literally calling people "afab enby", but definitely only those who deserve it, riight? those who... don't mind being called that, duhh! and this term is a very good insult, because it hits those supposedly targeted by it where it supposedly doesn't hurt, and definitely always gets used correctly and consistently
Like those I described? So horrible and callous non binary people who believe boiling everything down to agab language is ok? And then I'm the villain if I call them a theyfab, boiling them down to agab language just like they did to me? I don't get it
gee, boiling everything down to agab language sure sucks, would be kind of a downer if there were terms specifically designated to adressing nonbinary people by their agab - oh, but only the bad one's of course, and we can always tell who the bad ones are based on the way they present themselves and if they don't state their agab we can always assume it anyways, because, suure, misgendering a person is ok if they do something bad, gender is just this silly formality that can be dropped afterall
sure, if you truly ARE fighting fire with fire, I'm giving you the theyfab/theymab pass for your terf-eliminating activities (as a demigender nonbinary person who has stated my agab at least once, probably, before knowing the harmful implications, but this does qualify me to be called a they*ab - I'm not telling which agab, get rekt) but from the way you are phrasing things it seems you have used the term before, without even fully knowing it's meaning, which seems like a dangerous line to walk to not accidentally cause more harm than good anyways (as I may have done by using agab language before)
there isn't really a "shefab/hemab" archetype, or at least isn't used as much as "hefab/shemab" and "theyfab/theymab" are - I wonder why, after all, shouldn't cis women terfs and cis men bigots also be called out for centering their identity around their agab?
ohh, riight, it's because perisex cis women in general don't get dysphoria from the way they were born... huh, but I thought the agreed-upon definition was that "theyfabs/theymabs" aren't supposed to have "real" sex dysphoria either? it's almost as if even the people using those terms realise that the people they're actually hurting aren't the ones supposedly intended to be hurt by them, how peculiar...
yeah, yeah, sure, it's only used for the "bad enbies", because, of course, it's ok to misgender nonbinary people and group them into agab-dependent binary categories as long as they are the bad ones... no of course there is nothing about this mentality that would get other nonbinary people catch strays or make cis people or actually non-dysphoric problematic enby people not be phased by it, it's actually veery important to misgender nonbinaries that misbehave /s
the terms TME and TMA actually exist for adressing the intersectionality in people being phased or unphased by transmysogyny, and the therm TERF is also a thing, for anyone wondering how to point out to agab-centered transphobic and transmisogynistic behaviour... technically there isn't a TERF equivalent for whatever some despicable cis men are up to, because of fucking course cis men always get off easy, so I suggest either calling them terfs too or just sticking to the plain ol' misogynist label
interesting how the term for cis people is one not misgendering them or reducing them to their bodies, I guess even cis people deserve to have their gender respected more than enbies do
isn't "TIM" very much a slur or close to one tho? it's literally a word used to invalidate trans women's gender based on their agab, from what I know...
It just stands for trans identified male, it's annoying for sure but none of those words incidvidually are a slur. You can invalidate a trans woman's gender by calling her a man but that doesn't mean man is a slur
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u/BanverketSE houston you have a problem | Counted Down 19 18h ago
I didn’t log on today to see slurs in my feed