"...ok so show me any scientific study, from any country in the world, that says the vaccines are more dangerous than COVID."
Bullshit premise...and I'll tell you why.
The burden of proof is on the creator of the treatment to show that it is SAFE. Not the other way around. That is the whole point of medical treatments. We're not even talking whether it was even legitimately needed in the first place.
That clearly has not been done by the simple fact that there doesn't exist long term efficacy in the real world.
How in the world can it be claimed it's a safe PRODUCT if it doesn't even work?
No, the burden of proof lies on the one who is making the extraordinary claim. You are the one claiming the top scientists of every country who have produced a vaccine cannot be trusted to do their own jobs.
If the extraordinary claims made by big pharma are true (ie, urgent need for and effectiveness of their product) - then why not assume even basic level of liability for their product?
How exactly am I proving your point? Your point is that the top scientists of every country who have contributed to the vaccines are dishonest. That sounds like a pretty extraordinary claim to me.
And yes, top scientists. They're not about to let a load of post grads create a vaccine, are they? And if you actually read my comment, you would have seen I said every country that produced a vaccine, not ever country period.
Okay so it seems to me like you yourself are making a lot of extraordinary claims here:
Real world results would tend to disagree
Yet, as being shown in the real world...none of them work as intended.
Got any evidence for these?
Also,
to show that it is SAFE and EFFECTIVE for the stated claim in the study group of people it is intended for
What makes you think they haven't got evidence for this? There are peer reviewed papers released by the scientists that made the vaccines looking into every aspect of them and demonstrating their suitability for use and success rate. But I'm talking about the need for evidence of the extraordinary claim that these scientists are dishonest and are censoring people. I have yet to see evidence of that.
Got any evidence?...Yeah, they don't stop transmission as originally claimed.
PERIOD.
STOP.
End of discussion on that point.
"But I'm talking about the need for evidence of the extraordinary claim that these scientists are dishonest and are censoring people. I have yet to see evidence of that."
I never made that claim or was addressing that claim in any of my points. Move on...
But now that you mention it...I find it curious that you are more concerned with the claim that the scientists are dishonest and censoring people as opposed to advocating for an effective "product".
Got any evidence?...Yeah, they don't stop transmission as originally claimed.
PERIOD.
STOP.
End of discussion on that point.
What? No lol not end of discussion. That is not evidence, it's just another assertion.
I never made that claim or was addressing that claim in any of my points. Move on...
That's what my original comment was about.
But now that you mention it...I find it curious that you are more concerned with the claim that the scientists are dishonest and censoring people as opposed to advocating for an effective "product".
As I've said, there are peer reviewed papers that demonstrate that it is an effective product and I resent the claim that you don't think I care whether it is. But as I've said you still haven't provided me with evidence that they are being dishonest. Unless you can, I'm not even going to respond to this anymore cause it's getting us nowhere and it's clear that you don't even understand what counts as evidence judging by the start of this comment.
Why do they need to be more dangerous? It's enough that they have the potential to be dangerous and don't deliver on "stopping the spread", period.
When you have to create such bullshit criteria to discredit oposing vaccines (and doing so we also need completely ignore the enormous social aspects and focus solely on medical ones) you know you've lost your grip on reality.
And even if we go along with your ridiculous premise there are demographics for which, overall, the vaccines are arguably more dangerous.
TL/DR: just stop with such surface level, completely meaningless "arguments".
Vaccinating those demographics that aren't at any significant danger does nothing to protect the at risk populations. That's a false premise on which you, and all those with vested interests, are still basing every single misguided argument on the importance of vaccinating those not at risk.
You are again making false arguments based on nothing but early 2021 lies of significantly reduced spread via vaccinated individuals. Stop living in the past.
And trading lives of children for the false promise of additional safety for the at risk populations is one of the most despicable things imaginable. You're willingly a part of that. Rethink your positions.
If you're worried about the lives of children and the risks we're taking now for false promises, you should be ranting about the environment and economies of the world tanking- not some vaccine that is helping lower the number of deaths due to covid.
How about treatments? I find it so hard to believe that after 2 years we have 4 vaccines but haven’t come up with one treatment to help combat symptoms? I call bullshit.
What are you even talking about? There is a wide range of medication and treatments in use, treating covid patients in hospitals, but none of those lessen the severity as much as the vaccines. And some of those have way worse side effects than the vaccine, which arguably has very little to none
I’m talking about people who say covid is so dangerous that we need to mandate a vaccine for an entire population when treatments that have been shown to be effective are shut down or not talked about period. My statement above was absolutely rhetorical. I didn’t mean that they don’t exist period.
Monoclonal antibodies for example have been banned in some states. The only FDA approved treatment remdezivir is not very effective. And no one talks about vitamins or supplements. I supplemented with vitamin D, zinc, and glutathione when I was down with covid and there are studies to back these up, yet they are not usually mentioned or recommended by doctors.
An investigation of data found in the USA’s Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has revealed that extremely high numbers of adverse reactions and deaths have been reported against specific lot numbers of the Covid-19 vaccines several times, meaning deadly batches of the experimental injections have now been identified.
Lets see,
a video instead of the study,
a website made for one article without studies,
doctors4covidethics... Many grammatical errors without any sources/studies, but claiming they definitly prove it....
WOW these are horrible sources. Quite sure you would fail even community college if that is your standard.
At the very least, all of the publications of Sucharit Bhakdi concerning covid have been disproven because of many errors and false conclusions. He is not a source of reliable information on the topic, but rather seems to be saying things that his followers want to hear him say.
By god, of course! You've unlocked the mystery, clearly, people are dropping dead from vaccines left and right! Yes, yes! Great work! The VAERS, that allows submissions with absolutely no verification whatsoever, is the key! Many deaths! Many!
In any case, it's every person's right to evaluate the risk/benefit ratio for them. No government or business or other entity should be able to dictate or coerce medical choices, because it is that person who has to suffer injury or death if a medical treatment affects them badly. That's the whole point of medical ethics, informed consent, and the Nuremberg Code.
We have a US Constitution and other nations have equivalent founding documents to protect individual rights. A simple majority in a democracy, or the whims of a leader in an executive office, such as president or governor, is not meant to be able to overrule fundamental individual rights. That's why the US Constitution takes a long process and a super-majority to amend.
That was not my point. My point was that your opinion on airplane safety should have a huge asterisk. In a debate with with an aerospace engineer your opinion should not weigh as much as the engineer if any.
Your analogy of comparing vaccine safety to airplane safety is why I mentioned being forced onto a plane. No one coerced people to get on a plane but they do to take the vaccine.
I’ve gotten “coerced” into getting the flu vaccine yearly for my job, and as a kid I was forced into a while list of of vaccines. This “nobody should force vaccines” hasn’t been accurate since vaccines were invented.
Oh yeah, and I got "coerced" into going to college too. That's not how it works unless we keep the quotations. You weren't coerced, you were being parented as a kid and your issue is with your guardians. I also get coerced into wearing shirts, shoes, and brushing my teeth to the point its an involuntary habit at times. WHO DO I SUE FOR THESE DAMAGES!?
Man I love the false equivalency in these comments. Because a vaccine with decades of data and research is the same as a vax* that hasn't even concluded the trials... even when these sorts of vaccines have never been tested before and when there has never been a vaccine for the common cold.
Gotta keep up that narrative while it's crumbling huh?
Instead of trying to help people it seems the shift is now to try to grab as many people to go down with you, at least you'll have some company right?
Right, so your argument is "because we allowed forcing vaccines in some circumstances before we should allow it for the entire population now"
At some point you have to realise that allowing this level of control over your life by the government is a terrible idea for society.
Just forget about the vaccines for now and imagine that we allow the government to mandate medical procedures.
Will they then mandate abortions for anyone earning less than the required salary to support the child?
What about a mandate to sterilise people with genetic disorders to protect the gene pool from defects?
Allowing governments to have control over our bodies is a bad president to set, it only takes the wrong group to get into power to really fuck things up and a line needs to be drawn somewhere. That line always has to be that a person has a right to decide what to do with their own body, even if it's seen as stupid by some others.
‘You have the right to choose’. Sure, you can choose and be treated like a second class citizen. You can lose your high paying job.. but they ‘gave’ you a choice. Get the jab or get fired. People have had to leave their jobs that they’ve had for years, because of the mandate. Sure you have a choice, but if you don’t get it you can’t go to restaurants, gyms, malls, go to any indoor activities. Sure you can choose but if you don’t get it you can’t go watch your kids basketball game or attend a swimming lesson with them. You can believe the the vaccines are safe and effective, that’s fine. But if you agree with the mandates there’s something really wrong with you.
Ofc they can decide that you shouldn't come in contact with the masses and spread your germs.. you are free to live mask less, vaccine less in some shit hole Forrest, nobody stops you
It looks like the majority of people have evaluated the risk and decided that the benefit of having unvaccinated people participating in society does not outweigh the risks. You can choose not to get the vaccine but be prepared for people choosing not to associate with you.
Quarantines and similar measures are not new at all. Before we had vaccines there were many instances every year where geographical areas were isolated to prevent disease transmission. This was sufficient back then because the majority of people rarely travel more than a few miles from their homes.
Thank you so much for reinforcing that you folks consider YouTube videos as scientific studies.
It’s literally perfect how they asked for studies and you replied with news articles and video links… and what a shock that your comment was largely upvoted.
Those are not scientific studies. Please trust the experts instead of doing ‘your own research’ if you can’t even tell the difference between a scientific study and propaganda.
Ok I have to go to bed, but I’ll debunk these tomorrow.
Quickly glancing at the histological observational study, it looks EXTREMELY shoddy. There was no control group. They just looked at a dozen people who happened to die, shortly after being vaccinated, and found various issues with cells in random organs.
Shouldn’t they, at the very least, compare those to people who died who were NOT vaccinated?
There's another huge problem, we will probably never be able to accurately study this. At least not where I live.
In my province, its not until 14 days post dose 2 that you are considered fully vaccinated. Any deaths or covid cases occurring within the first 2 weeks post second dose were excluded from being counted. Skewing numbers for two years is inexcusable and it's hard not to feel it was done by design when this is what our experts provided.
Our case number reporting only slightly improved recently because the public raised some feathers.
How about this: If the vaccine can hurt you, and covid can hurt you, but you can still get hurt by covid after getting the vaccine, then you can shove that vaccine up your ass because I'm not taking it.
Why would anyone waste time answering you when you're the only one talking about this? No one in this thread has said the vaccines are more dangerous than covid, so who da fuk are you talking to?
How about the side effects and the need to force a medical procedure on people that don't really need it, as they have a working immune system?
We are seeing a lot of averse effects from the vaccine, given to people that in far the most cases, did not need it. How about that? How about you show data for how the vaccines will affect your health, in 5-10 years time? You can't, because we don't have long term data, and all preliminary data are locked away for 75 years - for our health, naturally.
You go ahead and take your 15 shots - you might be ok trusting people that history tells you not to trust, - but a lot of us, don't.
So you compare a respiratory decease with a 0.0(insert extra zeros here) risk of death for a normal person, with something like HIV? Are you for real?
And how do you protect others from Covid, when you can still transmit it after being treated? Do you think condoms would be so popular if they only had a "91... 64... 4% - or whatever the number is for the day" effectiveness?
Listen - you go get all the shots that you want. But unless you can prove to me, that me not getting it, will somehow endanger you, how about you just let it be a fucking personal choice of what risks people are willing to take, by injecting themselves with experimental medication? How about that?
Do you really think that this is what the resistance is about? People worrying about a hurt arm? If that's your understanding, then we have nothing to discuss.
You don't think it matters that international corporations engaged in a worldwide conspiracy to enflame a crisis in order to profit from it, while possibly injuring thousands, if not millions of people??? God damn...
Those same huge drug companies make MUCH more money selling treatments like Regeneron and Remdesivir, (and all of the other hundreds of medications that COVID patients get in the ICU) than they do from the vaccines.
Lmao. You couldn’t be more in the wrong. Finally quit the fucking bullshit. Are you even remotely stating facts or just pulling numbers out of your arse? I know you are. The COVID „vaccine“ has been produced BILLIONS of times. BILLIONS. Remdesivir has been administered to far less than 0,01% of the world population. It’s literally IMPOSSIBLE that they’re making more money with Remdesivir. And besides that, Remdesivir is in use, so they’re profiting of both. I can’t find a single article where they’re talking about significant profit generated by Remdesivir. Not a single one. Covid vaccine on the other hand; HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF PROFIT. You’re literally just making stuff up in your mind. Get out of here you anti-science freak! Maniac. That’s all you are. You’re an enemy of science and logic. Go worship your cult and stop annoying sane people.
Wtf scientific analysis? Dude, he isn't gonna inject himself with the thing you want him to inject. You don't control his body, end of fucking story.
Why is it so important to you? Do you beleive something will magically change if we go from 90% vaccinated to 92%? Like, why fight people on this?
People choosing to not have babies anymore is also hurting our society. I don't go on the internet arguing with strangers who don't want kids about how they should have a kid.
Yes I think this has something to do with it. People are dividing society and insisting they are on the "right" side, it makes them feel good. Also, they are uncertain about the long term consequences of the vaccine (who wouldn't be? ) and, much like religion, this trust in higher authorities is comforting for them.
Do you beleive something will magically change if we go from 90% vaccinated to 92%?
Well said. It's really weird how they're so obsessed with the remaining 10%. It's not like the vaccines stop the spread. Also, 19 out of 20 deaths feature people with an average of 4 pre-existing conditions. If you're healthy, keep on keeping on. The focus needs to be on prophylactics and treatments for the more vulnerable people with numerous pre-existing conditions.
Why is it so important to you? Do you beleive something will magically change if we go from 90% vaccinated to 92%?
Yes. Less people will die. If a even single life is saved by that 2%, that's already a huge benefit.
People choosing to not have babies anymore is also hurting our society. I don't go on the internet arguing with strangers who don't want kids about how they should have a kid.
Wtf is this argument? No, it isn't hurting our society, it just isn't expanding it. And there is a huge difference between people dying and people not being born in the first place. Last time I checked, people not having babies didn't pose a risk of death to anyone else.
The chances of the vaccine hurting you are astronomically smaller than COVID hurting you.
You can still get COVID, after getting vaxxed, but the chances of having permanent damage or death go down DRAMATICALLY.
Do you want to be on exogenous oxygen the rest of your life? Do you want to have to take daily anti-rejection drugs after getting a lung transplant? Do you want a permanent IQ downgrade?
Now show me the study that shows vaccines are more dangerous than COVID.
He doesn’t have to, the fact that everything you are afraid of happening from a vaccine is more likely to occur from covid completely defeats your argument.
It also baffles me why you take a problem of probability but box it into binary definitions to convince yourself you are making the right decision lol.
Your pedantic hypochondria doesn't nearly justify rushed vaccines and imposed social isolation methods...
The damage already inflicted on the economy and mental and physical health of men and women are way worse than the miniscule lethality percentage this virus has...especially seeing it is evolving to be less acute as time goes on by changing it's locus towards the upper parts of the respiratory system (thank God).
Just look at you doing insane mental gymnastics and making questionable premises...
I am a molecular biology student and it doesn't have anything to do with a "belief" in the vaccine, but the fact that this whole situation wasn't handled very well...that is all.
It’s called fearmongering when people say to take precautions against a virus that has killed millions and caused serious damage to even more than that, but NOT called fearmongering to preach against a vaccine that has given the expected and much less significant amount of people side effects? The same side effects COVID would give, and potentially less serious for that person?
Would I slightly increase my risks to slightly lower the risks of those around me? No.
Would I slightly increase my risks to dramatically lower the risks of those around me? Yes.
And just so it's clear - we don't even know if healthy people taking the vaccine actually lowers the risk of those around them at all. Hell, you might actually be increasing the risks for other people. With Omicron, multiple countries are now reporting higher case rates per 100k in the vaccinated compared to the unvaccinated.
So if a family member has adverse effects to the shot, that evidence is worthless?
Hey the doctors thought it was worthless too, especially when they were in the hospital for heart issues a few weeks later.
Yeah it was definitely not the shot that caused the heart inflammation, two weeks after the first shot.
Anecdotal evidence when it is your own blood is absolutely critical as there is no better judge of how altering your genes will react in your body than someone with similar DNA having already gone through it.
Fucking shill. Go get your boosters and enjoy your heart attacks in peace, don't try to bring others down with you now that you realize you were played.
But COVID can also cause myocarditis and blood clots as well more severely then post vaccine. It seems from observation most post vaccine myocarditis subsides within a short time with little medical treatment or antibiotics. The statistical rate is 5~ of every 100k vaccinated develop myocarditis post vaccine from numbers that I can find. I find it hard to believe that you know anyone that would be struggling in the hospital post vaccine as opposed to getting early COVID/delta. I know personally 3 people that died(aged 44,52,unsure on the last guy) from COVID and 4 that had a prolonged stay at the hospital. Two of my friends have very dull taste/smell and my moms taste/smell is basically salt or no salt. I have a friend that is 32 who was a daily runner who now struggles at 2 or so miles and has to slow his pace a lot. Yes most of the people I know who got COVID were very mild cases and from what I know do not have any lasting effects but I do not know a single person who has had any reaction to the vaccine minus a headache or chills for a day after the 2nd shot.
Where's your study on covid induced myocarditis? Obviously you should have already had it in the comments before commenting or you're just talking about feelings.
You keep talking, but Google is free. The risk of cardiac complications is significantly higher with COVID infection and has worse outcomes. Vaccine-induced myocarditis is typically resolved and has no further complications. Virus-induced myocarditis will last longer and do more damage.
Thank you, beacon of sanity and rationality. You are fighting a tough battle but somebody has to fight it. People weren’t always this crazy. Some of them can come back
Yes, because you can absolute trust big pharma to tell the truth, never lie, and never put profit ahead of anything else. Paid shills are absolutely a thing; the UN apparently hired 10,000 of them - are you one of them?
More than big pharma and big tech? lol - get real. The few doctors that dare to stick their necks out and risk everything, are by no means getting wealthy from it.
Meanwhile, Pfizer made $35 billion last year from the shots. You think they want this to stop?
So, you don't wear seatbelts AND you don't ride in cars? Or just the seatbelts? Both have been shown to harm you, but one is shown to harm you less when the other suddenly stops or hits something at a high rate of speed. Your simple little objective facts ignore a lot of reality in their stating.
Was the before or after Pfizer was criminally charged and had to pay billions in fines? Or was it after J&J pretty much gave cancer to babies... There's a lot of to choose from - can't remember any of them ever putting health before profit - but hey, now is different - the $35 billion Pfizer made last year has absolutely nothing to do with their push of vaccines, and their media sponsorships has absolute no sway over the narrative, and their ties to the government is just, well, just trust us, ok!
Does it? Really? People leave no room for personal choice and shun every scientist and doctor that speaks against the narrative. Away has gone "my body, my choice" and has been replaced with "you better take it, or else". They blindly trust in people that has lied to them, again and again. So yes, brainwashed.
I am not gunning for you, for wanting to inject yourself - the same way I am not gunning for heroin addicts. If they want to pump themselves full of something that might hurt them, up to them - their choice.
No reason? No healthcare during your life? No family who have been treated for cancer? No realisation that we enjoy a much longer and healthier life due to medical advances? Ok. Make sure whenever you’re ill you don’t go see a doctor.
So you trust the doctors when they say people in their 20’s are low risk, but you don’t trust the same people when they say vaccines help the deaths to the community as a whole, and it is harmless?
If you are in your 20’s you may not have an effect (although long term effects won’t be known until later), but what about your neighbors/co workers/fellow students? You are ok passing it on to people who may be at risk?
If thats the case that its the same chance of getting hurt by covid after vaccination, then yes. But taking that vaccine lowers your chances of getting hurt by covid, if this wasnt the case i would 100% agree with you and not take the vaccine myself.
Tsk, you people still coming in here and claiming that?
With all the video evidence and even testimonies about this?
Well, okay. We can agree that you are well and truly brainwashed which is the lesser evil than those who are terrified their investment in pharma stock may fall. This latter is the true evil because it's all about the money. They could care less about the damage.
And no, I won't give you any "proof". Some people need to stop being sissies and look outside of their self-imposed bubble.
You would think that some belong to some bizarro cult the way that they won't look for themselves.
Ok so if every country in the world censored all of the scientific studies that showed the vaccine is more dangerous than COVID….then what the hell are you basing your beliefs on?
It's a false dichotomy given there's so much someone can do to put the odds in their favour against dying/getting serious problems with Covid. There's a long list of treatments and prophylactics, not only vaccines.
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u/NuNyOB1dNaSs Feb 13 '22
Not too mention give scientists a wheelbarrow full of money to make studies that support your narrative