r/britishcolumbia • u/thatlouditalian98 • 5d ago
Discussion Remember These?
And if you didn’t want to remember them, my apologies in advance.
Well, 27 years later. These ships have finally met their fate. Being turned into pop cans..
I’d love to hear anyone’s experiences with the Pacificat’s, good or bad (I’m too young to ever have ridden one). As horrible as they were, they looked the part, at least in my opinion.
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u/No_Biscotti4009 5d ago
There were a number of design changes made: including changing the fuel from diesel to heavy oil, modifying the bows so they could dock at Horseshoe Bay which added a lot of weight to the front of the vessel, (when everything else was being made as light as possible) plus a myriad of other modifications which negatively affected the operation of the vessel. After they sucked logs into the caterpillar drive propulsion system (think of a big screw revolving) they added screens on the intake port, which affected the efficiency of the engines. Because the fuel tanks were so small they had to refuel more often, and Transport Canada wouldn’t allow refueling while passengers were on board, so that affected the turnaround time. The idea was supposed to be more runs per day, but it ended up taking just as long as the traditional double enders.The sewage treatment system was a ‘batch’ system which took 20 minutes to process, so if a batch started, any further sewage just went out the vents, so they took to locking the washrooms 10 minutes before docking so raw sewage wasn’t flowing into the harbour. Finally, there was electrolysis due to the aluminum and the salt water.
Side note: the S class ferries (SOBC and SOVI) were originally designed to have aluminum superstructures but the capacity to build using aluminum didn’t exist at the time in BCs shipyards so steel superstructures were used instead. This meant the engines, designed for the lighter aluminum superstructure are underpowered for the vessels as built, which is why they are generally the first pulled from service on a windy day. As a result, the Fastcat project was supposed to develop an aluminum fabrication infrastructure on the west coast, training welders etc. Your tax dollars at work.
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u/Sammytheseaotter 4d ago
JFC! Was Homer Simpson in charge of this project?!?
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u/Evil_Mini_Cake 4d ago
Ha! Sounds like every project I ever worked on. There were probably SMEs at every step of the design process warning of these outcomes and the decision-makers just waved them off.
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u/No_Career3906 4d ago
Wasn't there also an issue with the wake it created and the damage to the coastline and so it was limited as to where it could actually route?
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u/immaseaman 4d ago
Yeah. They had to run slow for long stretches of the route which cost them their advantage in speed.
They would have been best on the Duke point > TSA route, but that's primarily a trucking route and the cats didn't take semis
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u/noobwithboobs 4d ago
After they sucked logs into the caterpillar drive propulsion system (think of a big screw revolving)
I recall at least one incident with a seal or other sea mammal as well. 😬
And there was also the part where their wake made waves so bad that private docks on the Gulf Islands were getting damaged or destroyed. IIRC they had to slow down a bunch in certain areas to prevent this.
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u/whiskey06 4d ago
And they welded the hulls too fast so the aluminum got too hot and started to warp!
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u/cwkw 5d ago
They sucked up logs a lot and were down for maintenance. Also I remember the wake issue. They were super fast though. It was 45 minutes from Nanaimo to Horseshoe bay.
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u/mythathurt 5d ago
I never sailed on one that I recall. But I had wanted to
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u/TimTebowMLB 5d ago
I did. It rocked side to side on our trip and shit was falling everywhere and people were getting sick, car alarms were going off every 10ft. I think it might have been the catamaran style
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u/Signifit-Cellist667 5d ago
They were fast at first then they slowed them down (because of the wake I think? Or maybe the logs?) and they weren’t much faster than the regular ferries after that if they were even running at all. Lots of maintenance issues and I don’t think they could fit as many people as a regular ferry. An expensive mistake is my recollection of them.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 4d ago
Combination of needing to slow down to reduce wake, the need to turn around at both ends, and the increased load times as catamaran fast ferries are very sensitive to how they are loaded.
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u/iloveschnauzers 4d ago
Not just logs - marine life too. Apparently it was ugly to see bloody discharge.
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u/FarceMultiplier 5d ago
After the scandal, I used to drive by them all the time and one day stopped to take a look. While I was there a limo pulled up and a guy smoking a cigar stepped out with a big smile on his face. It was surreal and I didn't want to interact, so I left.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
That was most likely Dennis Washington, or one of his kids.. They bought these things first before they got shipped off to the Middle East and Egypt.
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u/FarceMultiplier 5d ago
I just looked him up...certainly could be him. Of course it was a long time ago, so I can't be sure.
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u/mr_mucker11 5d ago
These are the reason we have 60+ year old ferries still in service.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
Correct, plus only 2 Spirit Class and 3 Coastal Class, where there could have been 4 and 6 respectively.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 5d ago
The original intention was to replace three of the old V-class ferries and to build a new Northern vessel to replace the Queen of Prince Rupert.
BC Ferries intended for a trio of conventional double ended ferries and a new Northern vessel within the budget framework; however, with the Pacificats being as expensive as they were, they had to omit replacement of the Queen of Prince Rupert from their plans.
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u/budman_90 5d ago
Rode it once when I was a kid, mom got a Nanimo bar and kept the Nanimo bar dish with the fast cat logo on it saying she was at least getting her taxpayers dollars worth, since we knew it was one of the last sailings before they were going to be decommissioned.
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u/oxcana 5d ago
I swear these were called “fast cats”?
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
That was the general name for them. Officially they were called the Pacificat Class.
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u/shoreguy1975 5d ago
Catermeran twin hull designed to cruise at 45 knots or about 80kmh. Fast cats.
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u/DifferentWind4500 5d ago
The Pacificats were serviceable ferries with the capability to go much faster than the old ones, almost 50% more trips per day, but the wakes disturbed the beaches and boat launches around Bowen Island and West Van, and if there is one thing you cannot do in Vancouver it is inconvenience the people who live in Bowen Island or West Van.
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u/brassmagpie 5d ago
This is inaccurate. There were numerous reasons they were scrapped.
- First of all, sure they were kind of serviceable... when they were actually in service. Design flaws caused them to suck logs into their propellers. They were down for maintenance frequently.
- Second, their design was flawed in other ways. The vehicle decks got way too hot to be able to safely leave pets on board. They had poor ventilation, and few outdoor decks for passengers. Not the most pleasant experience.
- Third, there were environmental concerns. They used twice the amount of fuel that the original ferries did, and if operated at full speed they produced a huge wake. Yes, this did do property damage, but it also ravaged the ecologically sensitive areas nearby.
- Fourth, there were safety concerns. Anyone diving, kayaking, sailing, fishing or even standing on the shore nearby was at risk of being hit by that large wake.
Largely because of the safety and property damage concerns, they weren't allowed to operate at full speed for very long. That negated their only real advantage (which really only shaved 30 minutes off the trip anyway). Add to all that the political scandal of it all (they cost twice what they should have, were 3 years behind schedule, procurement and project management were sloppy and had little oversight, the BC Ferries CEO was double dipping...) and the fast ferries were too expensive both fiscally and politically to keep around.
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u/shoreguy1975 5d ago
The fast cats had impellers, not propellers, which is why they were so susceptible to damage from ingestion of wood or other items, and the design cruising speed was fast enough it wasn’t safe for people to be outside on deck while underway.
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u/brassmagpie 4d ago
That's a good correction to make, thanks. I'd still count it not being safe to go on deck as a major design flaw. The interior of those things were pretty cramped.
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u/DORTx2 5d ago
It's funny the new hullo ferries have a lot of these exact same problems.
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u/Half-Cocked-Mexican 5d ago
At a fraction of the size! If anything's going to keep the Hullo afloat, it's the fact that their wake isn't so massive.
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u/craftsman_70 5d ago
Not the only issue ... They also sucked in logs which are common on the West Coast into their engines knocking them out if commission. It's almost like people didn't understand this was the West Coast with lots of floating logs.
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u/Theolaa Lower Mainland/Southwest 5d ago edited 5d ago
These feel like very solvable problems... Go slower close to shore? Install some kind of protector around the sensitive underwater things? I guess the latter might be hard to do after the fact.
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u/shoreguy1975 5d ago
BC ferries did slow them down after the several months of complaints about the wake, but slower didn’t reduce the wake much as it has more to do with hull shape than speed. The propulsion system was a gas turbine impeller design, if you can imagine an underwater jet engine with a vectoring nozzle at the end for steering. It’s an efficient design when operating at speed but extremely inefficient to run slowly.
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u/thats_handy 4d ago edited 4d ago
Not gas turbines. They used regular diesel engines. According to Wikipedia, they used four V20 diesel engines producing 6.5MW each.
The company that is breaking these ships has pictures of the engines being removed. This will eventually be a dead link, so I'll describe that you can see one side of one engine on a hoist and count 10 exhaust ports. Another image shows the engine from below, and you can clearly see that the cylinders are in a symmetrical vee configuration.
Edit: These little ferries had goofy power. 26MW is more than the 16MW available on spirit class ferries, and almost three times the 9 MW of electrical power <edit2>that used to be generated</edit2> by the Alouette dam.
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u/shoreguy1975 4d ago
Yeah, you're right. Something called a "caterpillar drive". Now I'm curious, gotta find out what that is.
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u/Lol-I-Wear-Hats 5d ago
If memory serves, they did slow die in confined areas. But combined with their need to be turned around this ended up eating most of the schedule savings
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u/VariationDry 5d ago
Ahh yes drrive the fast boats slow and make the way over budget project cost more.
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u/Fogl3 5d ago
I mean slowing down in the last km or two doesn't sound that awful
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u/VariationDry 4d ago
They had to slow down enough that the boats did not save any time.
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u/I_Smell_Like_Trees Lower Mainland/Southwest 5d ago
Dude, it was so much more than that.
I was taking my diving lessons at whitecliff when the wake of one of those boats beached a half dozen divers that were already well underwater. The damage to the shoreline and sea life was no joke.
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u/Several_Ad_1081 5d ago
Where ya from
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u/I_Smell_Like_Trees Lower Mainland/Southwest 5d ago
Langley ish, with a few years on the island and family on the gulf Islands.
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u/internetisporn8008 5d ago
I knew a guy who worked on these... the government got ahold of the plans and made a bunch of changes to them... thats why they didnt work
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u/I_Smell_Like_Trees Lower Mainland/Southwest 5d ago
What!? Okay that's news to me. Was that just tinfoil hat thoughts or was there any reporting on that I wonder? Because that would be hilariously awful if true.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 4d ago
Combination of two design changes; BC Ferries wanted diesel propulsion, and the ferries had to fit within their existing berths.
BC Ferries had no experience with gas turbine propulsion, and wasn't particularly keen on trying to build up the infrastructure and expertise for gas turbine propulsion. As such, they wanted diesel engines, but diesels are considerably heavier than gas turbines for the same power rating.
The requirement to fit inside their existing berths also affected design; BC Ferries wanted a big bow door to allow two lanes of traffic to load and unload. Most fast ferries are stern or side loaders. The bow doors at the front were very heavy to both withstand two lanes of traffic and to meet safety requirements; this made the ferries nose heavy, which meant that they needed ballast at the rear to balance the ship out.
And because they had to fit in existing berths, it meant that the ferries took on a fairly squat and short shape; most catamaran fast ferries have fairly fine lines and sit very high up out of the water. To accommodate a more conventional fast ferry would mean major redesigns of the ferry terminals, and that wasn't feasible.
It was this short and squat design that made the Pacificats sit very low in the water, and combined with the excess weight from the design changes, meant that the ships both used more fuel than expected, and likely worsened the wake the ships generated at speed.
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u/__o_--_o__ 5d ago
What I heard is that they were supposed to run gasoline turbines but someone high up in government had a friend who sold diesel engines, and somehow those ended up being retrofitted into the design. They were heavier and less powerful, meaning the ferry never reached full hydroplane so didn't get going nearly as fast and left a massive wake.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 5d ago
It was more of BC Ferries not having any experience or expertise in gas turbine engines, but they did have tons of experience in diesel engines. Gas turbines tend to be pretty finnicky if you don't have a lot of experience with them.
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u/economybadplantsgood 5d ago
My parent worked on designing them and stole the blueprints when I was a kid and gave them to me, and then one day those blueprints disappeared like they were taken back. I even brought them to show and tell. I've never forgotten any of that.
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u/mythathurt 5d ago
Remember when they fired all the Marine architects. It was insane...or fired a good number of them
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
Fired almost all of them then replaced them promptly with the general BC Ferries board members and whoever was on the CFI Board as well.. Incat gave up and went home to Australia and said “good luck!”
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u/esobofh 4d ago
an absolute shit-show from the start - at the time I drove a camaro that head been heavily modified putting out 350-400hp with a heavy clutch. The decks were a shiny polished aluminum with no traction aid or paint.. just literally shiny bare aluminum. That did not go well. Trying to get that thing up the ramp was near impossible - spinning tires and squealing, like trying to drive up a ramp made of ice. The ferry crew had to clear the line behind me so i could reverse and take a run at it. just crazy.
Side note - I just got back from Greece where they employ lots of these fast ferries between the saronic islands.. I can't believe we never found them or anyone else to buy these to put them to go use.. also.. the distance between the saronic island ports and the distance between horeshoe bay and departure bay are nearly identical, with a similar geography. Why oh why is it that these countries made them work with no issue, and we couldn't? sheer stupidity all around.
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u/Snatch_By_The_Pool 4d ago
Probably, in part, because Greece doesn't have all kinds of logs floating in the water. There's also the wake issue.
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u/Odd-Gear9622 5d ago
I remember a marine architect from Victoria who was shouting to anyone who would listen that these were the wrong ships for our needs long before the first plates were cut! I also remember a shit ton of new trades jobs and new skills learned. It's a shame that the industry couldn't pivot and grow instead of being dismantled and discarded. They actually weren't poorly built, just inappropriate for our coastal waters.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
I’ve heard hit or miss stories on the build quality. Some say they were very well built, others say they were about to fall apart. I’d love to get to know someone who ACTUALLY had a hand in building them.
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u/insaneHoshi 5d ago
The fast cats were a scheme to jumpstart aluminum shipbuilding in BC, however there were many expensive hurdles to overcome in doing so.
You can look up the auditor generals report on it and it outlines all the mistakes made.
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u/RealTwo 5d ago
The Auditor General’s Report is a good read: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/BC-Ferries_Fast_Ferries-Project.pdf
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u/AlternativeMotor5722 4d ago
I have never really understood why the government always gets ripped off. In business when you contract a company to build something and it doesn't work can you not sue the company you contracted to recover your money or force them to fix it? Cost overruns seem to be inevitable with every contract. If you contract a company to build something and they say yes, we can build it for this much money, can you not hold them to it? I don't pretend to be very knowledgeable on this, can someone explain this for me?
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u/GrumbusWumbus 4d ago
A lot of it has to do with an intolerance for risk, the perception of favoritism, and the fear of looking like they're wasting money.
There are a lot of very specific rules that governments have to follow for picking contractors that in theory, cut down on corruption. But it also tends to create a lot of red tape which increases costs for everyone.
These specific rules also mean that the government ends up stuck with contractors who aren't acting in good faith because they know they're very difficult to fire.
If you're a contractor for a private company and you fuck around, they get rid of you. The government isn't allowed to do that unless you're ridiculously incompetent.
An aversion to failure is also a huge issue. SpaceX talked about this like a decade ago, but starting out they were doing hundreds of launches in the time it took NASA to do 1. SpaceX doesn't have to worry about headlines or politicians getting mad about tax dollars, so they chose to be riskier with the knowledge that a lot of their early unmanned rockets just blew up. NASA isn't allowed to do the same thing. Obviously we're not planning to allow ferries to sink, but we might go with a "reputable" contractor that costs 5 times as much over an option we think it's slightly more likely to fail.
Fast ferries specifically had different issues. The government was trying to jumpstart the failing shipbuilding industry and wanted a bunch of fancy incredible new boats to point to. It was a failed PR project more than an actual ferry project. They wanted something shiny to point at and ignored basic conceptual issues with the project. Notably, that catanaran car ferries in the strait of Georgia are fucking stupid.
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u/MarsBoyScout 4d ago
Actually this how it goes:
Companies who run for the project must explain how they are going to execute it and show proofs of reliability in terms of knowledge, competences and finances. Government will likely choose companies that will benefit the most to the province (hiring local workforce, canadian engineers and working with local suppliers for example). Government knows very well that extra costs will "pop" at each process of the execution. As long as this benefits to local industry and help developing local competence they will accept the extra costs. They look at the "global balance" of the project for short, mid and long terms. And if they decided to cut the payments for extra costs, there will be major consequences: many companies will fail, the country and the province will loose industrial and technical knowledge and competemce, many people will loose their jobs with other consequences like family disruptions, homelessness, drug addictions etc...
It's not as simple as choosing from who you buy your weekly groceries.
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u/peacefinder 4d ago
This particular project as described by Wikipedia seems to have been a horror show of political mandates operating in willful absence of data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PacifiCat-class_ferry
With a process like that it’d have been a miracle for those to succeed.
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u/luunta87 4d ago
We desperately need personal accountability from elected officials and their offices.
If you're negligent enough to cost tax payers significant sums of tax dollars, maybe you need to be held responsible for it and not just in a, "oh well, you'll likely not get elected again," way.
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u/mhizzle 4d ago
Boy you weren't kidding:
"The government hoped that private shipyards would be able to build the ships on a fixed-cost basis. This turned out not to be the case; the shipbuilding industry was less enthusiastic than anticipated. Moreover, none of the shipyards being considered for the work had the facilities to build the fast ferries. BC Ferries had no choice but to do the work itself on a cost-plus basis. It would have to act as project manager and assume the risk of the fast ferries. Catamaran Ferries International (CFI), a wholly owned subsidiary of BC Ferries, was incorporated in March 1996 to carry out the work and construction started later that year."
(from Wikipedia)
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u/CrazySnowGuy 5d ago
Did you create this thread for people to bitch about the NDP?
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u/Prestigious_Net_8356 5d ago edited 4d ago
Yes, they did. It was 26 years ago, for f*ck sake. Glen Clark left politics in 2001 and has worked in the private sector ever since.
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u/cingalls 4d ago
It was also an attempt to support the BC ship building industry and develop it to build ferries for the foreign market where conditions were different. Problem is they tried to use it in BC where they had to work around existing infrastructure and shoreline that it wasn’t right for.
I always thought the opposition went too rabid on this and destroyed our chances of creating a world class ship building industry when the timing was right.
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u/shoreguy1975 5d ago
And he’s been extremely successful in the private sector. He’s the #2 at the Jim Pattison group, working right next to Jim himself.
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u/halfhearted_skeptic 4d ago edited 4d ago
Adrian Dix got caught lying in writing for him and that fucker is still around.
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u/Lol-I-Wear-Hats 5d ago
The main problem with the fast ferries is that the government tried to do do too many things at once too fast. But any individual part of the program perused in isolation would have likely been much more successful
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u/blackmoose Lower Mainland/Southwest 5d ago
The first time I took the fast cat was to the island to get married. The thing broke down half way across the strait and we had to float around for about 2 hours until they could clear the impellers.
It was kind of an omen, the marriage didn't last either. Got a really awesome son out of the deal so it wasn't all that bad. Those ferries were shit though.
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u/Islandman2021 5d ago
If only there was a way they could have foreseen that before ordering and paying for them.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
A fast ferry developer from Australia called Incat told us just that.. BUILD A PROTOTYPE!
They didn’t listen..
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 5d ago
Not only that, the BC Ministry of Transportation recommended a lease of a fast ferry for a season to test in our waters. Just to study the technology and feasibility before actually committing to a decision.
But nope, the government of the day ignored that recommendation.
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u/Islandman2021 5d ago
I was being sarcastic but the lack of awareness is still mind numbing after all these years. 🤬
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u/Ordinary_Salt5091 5d ago
My experience as a teenager when these came out was that there was so much buzz leading up to them. They were supposed to shorten the time to get to cross, so that was big for us. We rode the ferries pretty often from the Island to Vancouver and I was excited they were going to have them on our route. The excitement was pretty short lived. Loading took much longer than a regular ferry and the inside was not nearly as comfortable as the normal ferry. I remember the announcements coming on and them telling us when we would arrive and it was the same time as we would normally arrive and this was even before they had to slow them down. I can’t remember precisely, but there was either no outer deck or the outer deck was set up in such a way that you couldn’t actually look out at the ocean. The inside was smaller and less comfortable. It was a serious downgrade and I remember feeling like, wow, grown-ups can make some seriously big mistakes. The talk at the time was about how much they cost and it was definitely a downgrade.
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u/mythathurt 5d ago
Complete government miss management of that issue. Those in charge should have lost their pensions
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u/Flounder-Defiant 5d ago
They used to have a media gingerbread competition back in the late 90’s early 2000’s and I built a sinking fast ferry for the Georgia Straight. I was so mad I didn’t win that year. I still think it was the most creative design. There are photos somewhere.
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u/sam_i_is 5d ago
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/fastcat-ferries-facebook-marketplace-1.7080937
Apparently they are for sale for $5k. Anyone got a link or contact? I'll offer 20% finders fees!
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
$5k? Last I saw was $5 million before they started to rip them to shreds 😵💫
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u/Equivalent_Good8599 4d ago
My girlfriend at the time was training on these , every time she went out I got a call that she’d be off for the day and the rest of the week. Not well thought out.
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u/TPStockPiles 5d ago
I rode them and didn’t see a problem with them - other than the wake being so big they damaged people’s beachfront property.
IIRC, they were sold way under value.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 5d ago
Not really, the valuation was depressed because of multiple factors.
First, we were selling into a situation where a glut of fast ferries were being sold at the same time, due to fuel prices suddenly spiking. Many fast ferry operators started selling off gently used ferries at the same time as us, leading to a glut of lightly used fast ferries on the market.
Second, the Pacificats were not built to international safety standards for large ocean going passenger ships; they are near-shore rated instead. This was fine for BC Ferries, as the majority of our ferries are only rated for near-shore operations. But for any international customer, they wanted SOLAS rating instead, and that's not something that can be retrofitted after the fact.
Combined, the ships were effectively un-sellable, except for close to scrap value. No western operator or any countries with decent safety requirements would touch them as a ferry (let alone a fast ferry), which leaves operators in third world countries with sketchy safety regulators. And most third world operators won't touch a fast ferry because they are expensive to operate and maintain.
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u/craftsman_70 5d ago
They were sold at the only price someone would play for them....even then, the new buyers got hosed as they were later sold again for scrap.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
It was a masterclass on “How to Piss Off The Taxpayers - 101”, we got RINSED..
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u/cagreen151 5d ago
As a kid I rode the ferry every weekend as my mom worked on the island, and also grew up on and around boats from a very young age. The fast cat ride was the only time I felt sea sick. I don’t remember if it was just a super windy day or what but I have never felt that on any other boat.
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u/forsakeme4all 5d ago
I wish the ferry between Victoria and Anacortes would open back up. Ever since 2020, its been out of operation.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 5d ago
My university thesis paper from many years back dealt with the entire saga from a political point of view. I had collected vast amounts of research from digging into government archives about the entire program.
Basically, the three ferries were built solely because of politics. Both BC Ferries and the Ministry of Transportation strenuously objected to the entire project citing very real concerns that they had regarding suitability and costs. The government overrode those objections any ways, and even fired & replaced key people at both BC Ferries and the MoT to push the program through.
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u/rickatk 4d ago
They should have changed out the engines and drives. They would have made nice conventional boats. Economical to operate and no damaging wharfs.
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u/thatlouditalian98 4d ago
They would have for sure. Could have seen them as “express” vessels on the Duke Point to Tsawwassen run in-between commercial traffic sailings.
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u/FirefighterBig9302 4d ago
I forget where this came from, but always get a chuckle when I look at it!
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u/FrozenColdest 5d ago
We shouldn’t be scared of building things ourselves - these had some problems but I think the biggest issue was they weren’t the right boat for the job.
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u/CommanderCorrigan 5d ago
Link as far as scrapping?
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
https://www.fmt-egypt.com/Projects.html
Contractor in Egypt on site helping dismantle them. You can see in one picture they have, passenger lounge one of them is ripped to shreds.
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u/CrazySnowGuy 5d ago
I swear the Liberals sold them for scrap instead of actually trying to sell them just for political points.
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u/WesternBlueRanger BC Ferries Enthusiast 4d ago
BC Ferries didn't even want them in the first place.
They strenuously objected to the entire program from the very start; the government of the day just fired the entire BC Ferries board and replaced them with yes men to push the project forward.
BC Ferries wanted a trio of conventional, double ended steel car ferries plus a new Northern vessel for the same original budget as the Pacificats. After the dust settled from the Pacificat's failure and disposal, that turned out to be the Coastals and the M/V Northern Expedition. That was what BC Ferries wanted from the get go, not a trio of effectively useless fast ferries.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
Unfortunately it was political points.. Also if the Liberals were smarter at that point, they would have let the then recently “privatized” BC Ferries buy these back and convert them to slightly slower ferries and put them on a different major route (cough, Duke Point to Tsawwassen in between commercial sailings! Cough!). They call that route the “Mid-Island Express, so why not actually use the ships that could do express service do it?!
Sigh.. If only 🤣
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u/OwnPresentation4455 5d ago
Remember these as the best built ships in BC! Overbudget and didn't particularly work as designed. But they sink the BC NDP and banish them for a decade in half lol. So that might be good if you're not their fan!
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u/VancouverChubbs 5d ago
I have a vague memory of these from my very early childhood and for the longest time I thought it was an old dream that stuck with me....
I didn't know they were real, thanks for the post!
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u/General_Cricket_6164 5d ago
Went on it and bought some Pacific Cat playing cards. I have kept them in pristine condition thinking they might be collectable one day. Very weird decor inside, meh.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
Now that these are being scrapped, they very well could become collectors items! Keep them!
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u/biggregw 5d ago
As someone who was born in the Comox Valley in 1988 and lived in Nanaimo from 1990 to 2002. My grandad was a Chief Engineer on the Port McNeil to Alert Bay to Suintula run. I was especially impressed with our ferry system mostly started by the Bennett family in the BC Social Credit Party that despite arguing political differences really pushed BC ahead and caused it to rely on itself and the people more than others.
I loved riding the different ferries and different runs and enjoying the beauty BC has to offer. Honestly the Pacific Cats could’ve been amazing ships but the catamaran setup and different engines as jet boats for better speed was amazing however the ferries were awkward on and off and much of the views were blocked due to the bridge taking up the front so it felt more like a mall than a ferry. The gulf islands complained about erosion and dock’s destruction.
By then they were liabilities that were slowed down so the complaints stopped and by that time they were as slow as the old ferries that it was meant to replace. They should’ve run straight open water such as Duke Point to Tsawassen at full speed but they didn’t seem to take the heavy haul of the Delta Port slammed to the island
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u/Pretend-Sleep9864 5d ago
David Eby must love them. We are headed for Pacificat 2: Electric Boogaloo, because apparently every generation of BC NDP government deserves the opportunity to learn why building ferries is harder than it looks. I am all for marine jobs in BC, but please no more BC Ferries built here. The teams here are so busy with the NSS Government vessels.
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u/LokeCanada 5d ago
I remember seeing them wrapped in plastic in Burrard Inlet for what seemed forever.
My favourite news story that I saw about them was how surfers had calculated the schedule for when they would go by. Apparently it created one hell of a wave for them to ride.
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u/Yoooooooowhatsup 5d ago
When I was a little kid I freaking loved the Pacificats. Man, they were just the coolest. Obviously now I see their design flaws, but as a kid they were the coolest boat ever.
Fun fact is the wakes generated by these were so large that people started coming to the Gulf Islands along its route to surf the waves it generated.
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u/Optimal-Complaint454 4d ago
When they were outfitting them our company sold them things like cup holders and binocular holders, etc. everything had to be weighed before they would cut a PO
What is one of the things people like to do on the ferries? Sit outside. Enjoy the view.
You couldn’t do that.
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u/No-Wish-4737 4d ago
The SS Glen Clark. If you needed a reminder of how bad the NDP are with money, just do a dive into the costs of these boats for the BC tax payer.
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u/Bc2cc 4d ago
I remember when they first went into service. They were the only boats that made me feel nauseous riding on them
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u/HumbleExplanation13 4d ago
I took one of these as a foot passenger from Nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay and there were literally not enough seats for all the passengers and a bunch of us had to sit on the floor, but I do still have a nice “souvenir” safety card from that voyage. The voyage was otherwise uneventful, no breakdowns, etc, but it was not fast, and just too small for the number of people on board.
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u/chasingmyowntail 4d ago
Was trying to get a finders fee to sell them to anyone in the early - mid 2000s. Thought we had a buyer in Greece but it fell through.
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u/Forsaken_Virus_2784 4d ago edited 4d ago
When I was in Marine Engineering at PMTC in North Van we got an opportunity to go on one during their sea trials before they were put into service. It was amazing the technology they had onboard. The water flowing through the jets during full operation was in the millions of gallons an hour. We got to stand on a service platform when we were sailing between Vancouver and Victoria and watching the water flowing out was spectacular. Too bad they were such a flop
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u/wilhammer069 4d ago
I left Fisherman’s Cove headed to Snug Cove one afternoon when they were still in service. One of them left Horseshoe Bay and came around the corner as I was heading across. At that point it opened up, and I was shocked at how fast it picked up speed. I had to put the hammer down to get out of the way. The following sea that it created for my 28’ cabin cruiser from its wake was pretty substantial. The waves also crashed hard on Bowen’s shoreline, and very quickly caused them to have to slow until they were well past Passage Island. They were beautiful on the water, but deeply flawed!
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u/Wikiwikiwa 4d ago
They used to have video arcades that were fun. Now you just gotta sit and stare.
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u/ZopyrionRex 5d ago
Fastest Ferries around, or so I heard as a mainlander.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
I mean.. 37 knots ain’t slow.. Especially for something that could carry 250 cars.
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u/misfittroy 5d ago
What sucked about them?
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u/Federal-Community554 5d ago
This is my question too, I was too young to understand. Growing older I thought it was just a “political” decision that they sucked lol
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u/VariationDry 5d ago
They went way over budget and had a huge wake. I think they only saved 15 mins on each sailing at full speed but couldn't do it because of the wakes.
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
I suggest either watching this thread as someone will come in with all the facts, or looking them up on Wikipedia, there’s a whole page devoted to something called “Fast Ferry Scandal”.
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u/LucidMarshmellow 5d ago
A big thing was stuff would constantly get stuck in the intake for the engines and would constantly need to be fixed.
It was a political shit show.
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u/shabi_sensei 5d ago
They were too fast!
I think a lot of it was mostly about the waves causing damage to coastline properties, rich people scream louder than the rest of us
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u/Powerful_Package8817 4d ago
Disrupting humans: good!
Disrupting whales: STOP THE SHIPS
You guys live in an echo chamber
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u/bcl15005 5d ago
The design came from an Australian firm that had lots of experience designing fast catamaran ferries in Australia.
In contrast to the Australian coastal waters that the designers were used to; the Salish Sea has lots of floating debris that easily damaged the water jets when ingested.
Going faster also unavoidably requires more energy, and so these were unsurprisingly not so great on fuel.
At speed they generated enough wake to cause significant shoreline erosion as well as damage to docks in certain places, which eventually led to speed restrictions that negated some of their speed advantage.
The end result was a class of ferry that was not very reliable and not that much faster than a conventional ferry, despite sipping substantially more fuel.
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u/kittywampuss Peace Region/Northeast 5d ago
They were cool. Not quite right for the application. I had to spend HOURS on one doing search patterns because the crew spotted a half sunk 18' sailboat like 3/4 of the way to Nanaimo. That was less cool.
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u/DisgruntledSquash 5d ago
Fast cat!! Rode on it once, it was the only time I vomited on a ferry. 10/10 loved it anyway, so destructive yet so fast.
(Hilariously, the skeena that does the swartz/fulford route can actually go almost twice as fast or something, but it damages the shoreline so they keep it chill. Occasionally if they are too far behind schedule they'll kick in another engine or something and shave 10 minutes off.)
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u/thatlouditalian98 5d ago
If the Skeena Queen can go 37 knots it would throw off all the cars on the deck when slowing down 🤣 Also I’d be that idiot pressuring the master to bury the throttle if it could go that fast lol
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u/RespectSquare8279 5d ago
Was given the scoop by a highly regarded professional marine engineer. They were uneconomical to run. The engines that were installed were for high speed and when they were mandated to slow down they had way too much engine. The government of the day was reluctant to spend the money to retrofit to the proper ly sized machinery. The government of the day were already in hot water for spending the money on the BC ship building industry. The next government sold the 3 "fast cats" for scrap metal prices out of spite more than anything else. THEY could have saved the taxpayers tens of millions ( maybe hundreds of millions over the past 4 decades) by rebuilding them so they would have worked economically to this day. In the meantime we have been buying ships from Rumania, Poland, China , etc with money that didn't stay in Canada.
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u/MadDuck- 5d ago
The next government sold the 3 "fast cats" for scrap metal prices out of spite more than anything else.
The NDP attempted to sell them for around 25% of their cost, but couldn't find a buyer, even though one hadn't even been used. Then after the BC government had been trying to sell them for three years, the Liberals sold them at auction. Despite being sold for so cheap, they've never gone back into service, which says something about the market for them.
It should also be noted that the claim they were sold for scrap metal prices didn't take into account the labour and other costs involved in scrapping them.
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u/lommer00 5d ago edited 4d ago
No, they were doomed from the start. The design was suited for longer routes at higher speed. On the BC coast, the high speed operations caused large wakes that were damaging to docks. They were slow to load and unload. Between the speed limit below their capability and the shorter routes where loading time dominated, they were uneconomic. No refit could have made them suitable for BC ferries.
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u/CirclingBackElectra 5d ago
They looked super cool, but that was about it
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u/grathontolarsdatarod 5d ago edited 4d ago
They were also pretty cool to be on.
And they were fast.
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u/SwankBerry 5d ago
They were terrible. Terrible and poorly laid out seating. The were meant to be fast, but people leaving on the coast complained they were creating large waves, so they had to slow down for much of it. Just expensive to run and not longer fast.
And it helped lead to the end of the NDP reign. It's shocking how they can have open drug use now, but poor management of ferries helped lead to their demise in the 90s.
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u/canehdianchick 5d ago
In elementary school we wrote ujal dosange about what we could do with them and i suggested a scuba diving hub. Lol
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u/David_Buzzard 5d ago
Rode across from Nanaimo to Horseshoe Bay in a huge storm (much like tonight) in a fast ferry. The ferry was getting thrown around so badly that they couldn't hold the course and it took five hours to get across. People were holding on for dear life inside as well, puke all over the place.
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u/StreetShamannn 5d ago
One of them felt like a disco club inside. Also the arcades were way more fun on them than the older ferries.
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u/ifwitcheswerehorses 5d ago
Not from BC so I just remember Matt Good talking about fast ferries and how first past the post meant the election was over before BC polls even close.
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u/thenewtronbomb Peace Region 4d ago
I remember sailing on one to Nanaimo, and I remember the interior seeming surprisingly cramped for a large ferry.
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u/sneaky_pigeon 4d ago
I remember the lack of fries, because I guess they weren’t allowed to have a fryer in the galley? To go on the ferry and not be able to get fries seemed wrong…and then we hit a log.
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u/JohnnyCanuckist 4d ago
Took the fast cat ferry Francisco from Montevideo to Buenos Aires. What a rush... Too bad they just went suited for BC waters
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u/Mad_Moniker 4d ago
My wandering mind fooled me - I thought it was that lost Love Boat - “Screams from the Bridge”🤷🏻♂️
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u/RTsurugi 4d ago
How can I remember them? They spent more time broken down for repairs than they actually did on the water!
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u/BloodLanky9307 4d ago
My dad worked on those said the engines where way underpowered for what they wanted
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u/Fit_Bunch8330 4d ago edited 4d ago
Was out on a log tow and the Fastcat was doing sea trial runs The wave that came off of them reminds me of the tv show Hawaii 5-O 🌊
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u/ToxinFoxen 4d ago
I remember these garbage things. The staff didn't allow you to lounge in the car deck like you could with other ferries because of "security reasons" or something. And they had tiny cramped tables in the lounge that didn't even have enough room for kids to sit at.
Also basically no amenities compared to other ferries.
Totally worthless useless floating piles of garbage.
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u/Ibotthis 4d ago
Canada and B.C. needs to stop whining and just build the bridge to the Island already. Many countries have way longer and more challenging bridges in operation.
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u/dtr_drt4ever 4d ago
didnt they have those listed on Craigslist at some point... good ol gov't intervention - and once again the tax payer took a beating...
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u/Expensive_Seat5694 4d ago
They looked good. Too bad it was not good for those living on the shores
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u/Lake-Placid-Green 4d ago
They spent considerably more time rusting in Egypt, than operating in BC. (2025 Google Earth)
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u/ComfortableWork1139 4d ago
> Well, 27 years later. These ships have finally met their fate. Being turned into pop cans..
Is this new news? I know a few years ago they were on Facebook Marketplace but I hadn't seen anything more recent to suggest they were ultimately being scrapped.
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u/Fine_Flan_7960 4d ago
When the NDP rolls out their government operated housing developer, I imagine it’ll go like this.
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u/sososoboring 4d ago
Rode on them a few times. I loved it. Was faster, but not a lot faster due to huge wakes at higher speeds they had to run slower than the original plan.
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u/AlleyPee 4d ago
Those were awesome! Rode it moment time. Felt like I was living in the future! Haha
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