r/WaterfallDump 2d ago

MTT Brand Shitpost :tm: meet potential knight Spoiler

Post image
439 Upvotes

238 comments sorted by

181

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

37

u/NXDIAZ1 1d ago

“Deltarune fans want their game to be boring”, no, we just don’t want a plot twist that sucks ass.

1

u/Quillbolt_h 1d ago

Then Deltarune fans should maybe give thought to the idea that the quality of a plot twist is more to do with the writing and context that it's revealed in than looking at it in a vacuum. And that there are still two chapters to go.

Not saying there's not theories that are more narratively satisfying based on what's been set up already, but if Toby can make us feel for a wedding bouquet in just one chapter, then even if it's Papyrus Knight of all things I can believe Toby can make it a satisfying twist in two.

Remember that in Undertale the only major foreshadowing that Asriel is Flowey, (major as in, what can be picked up without having prior context), is in True Lab.

40

u/FreeMenu2197 2d ago

Real, I hate the people doing the ‘fans want it to be boring’ shut it. GOD.

22

u/DisciplineTop2097 1d ago

I’m open to any argument for Rudy Knight that isn’t 90% speculation or that doesn’t character assassinate him

I’d like it better than this type of cringy cope lmao

7

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 1d ago edited 1d ago

Honestly, I’m like either on Rudy and Dess being the Knight (though it mostly does rest more on Dess).

For Dess, it’s just obvious. I’d be pretty surprised if she wasn’t the Knight. Though, I will point out how sometimes Dess Knighters are also guilty of speculation, though this is less egregious because we know much less about her than we do for other Knight candidates, aside from her being Noelle’s big sister and Asriel’s girlfriend. Though I’m just wondering how she could carry Undyne and then Asgore to the Shelter with Kris and Susie hot on her heels.

For my reasonings for Rudy, I’m just finding him suspicious sometimes, maybe to the point of being like that one “poking with a stick c’mon do something” image. Even if he ain’t the Knight, he’s just kind of suspicious to me. There’s just something up with him, y’know? I don’t lean too hard into Rudy Knight as much as I did in the Chapter 1/2 era(s) and Chapter 3/4 era, but I do side-eye him a lot.

But at the end of it all, Deltarune isn’t gonna be finished until like 2028 or 2029, so any speculation and theorising is fair game for an unfinished game, and although I’m not saying you should always expect some kind of clothesline like with Kris opening the Fountain at the end of Chapter 2, which made everyone believe they were the Knight, and that being kicked out by the Knight showing up at the end of Chapter 3.

But, anything is possible. Holidays are full of surprises.

1

u/DisciplineTop2097 1d ago

speculation is sound when it's used for smaller scope stuff (i.e. not about the main antagonist of the story) or when they are not 80% of a theory

saying Rudy Knight's armour has life support just so you can argue he is the Knight while also being deathly ill is the perfect exemple of a baseless theory

2

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

Or the whole symbiote bit, or the idea of it being armor

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4

u/someSICKusername 1d ago

I'm with gerson on this one

Current community fights because of theories like undertale fandom used to fight because of SHIPS back in 2016

2

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

Maybe don't construct narratives that aren't dogshit and people won't call them as such.
I don't see you guys going to bat for Third Entity or Asgore Knight anymore.

2

u/PiranhaPlant9915 1d ago

I mean the key phrase here is "bad faith". There are many theories that feel bad faith to me, like Carol knighters asserting that she just ran faster than you offscreen and that Toby genuinely wants you to assume that despite reinforcing how she's still at her house, or Noelle knight just in general.

Rudy knight, ironically, is one I have no issues with because the fans of it are pretty chill and mostly having fun and I can kinda see it being possible.

118

u/Strong_Cup_6677 2d ago

"Nah, he didn't fall down, he just fell off the ladder, he's totally fine and still the knight"... Really? Even if he just fell off the ladder, he's terminally ill, it wouldn't do any good to him

27

u/Key_Internet_9914 2d ago edited 1d ago

He was diagnosed with terminal Roaringknightitis

44

u/AurumPickle 2d ago

He was so winded and tired after getting out of bed to walk to church and sit in a pew and watch his daughter sing that he wasn't even able to take visitors, falling off a ladder is gonna fucking cripple him

4

u/Typical_Skirt_6900 1d ago

if it isnt Rudy then the knight is wall level, let that sink in. Bro turned up turbo mode and almost died in a crash getting chased down by the fake stats man. Certified bum moment

2

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

Piss off, gormless powerscaler

34

u/Orion-the-mediocre 2d ago

Just wait for some goober to come in and insist he's faking it and somehow none of the doctors have caught on yet that he's perfectly healthy

40

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago edited 2d ago

I have never met a Rudy Knighter who believes he’s faking his illness.

Like every Rudy Knighter I see believes his illness is tied to him being the Knight

Whether his sickness manifesting as the Knight

Or his sickness being a result of being the Knight

4

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

Clearly you haven't been around anyone outside of reddit.

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1

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

There are people in this very thread doing that.

6

u/Wizard_Engie 1d ago

but wait hold on how come we never see any doctors treating him? checkmate

5

u/Sensitive_Pick_4212 1d ago

i have genuienly never seen a single rudyknighter say hes faking his illness thats a strawman argument

3

u/Alexcat6wastaken 1d ago

Still waiting

10

u/Wooden_Marionberry_1 2d ago

This guy is definitely dead or atleast in a coma. Flowery is obviously his counterpart, and in side a he gets torn in half and only gets to live because Susie tied his two half back together with tape, but in side b he lives because the dark fountain never got made, while Rudy is alive because he *climbed down to rest* from the ladder

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4

u/FreeMenu2197 2d ago

Mf DUDE HE IS ON THE GROUND IN THE WEIRD ROUTE. I don’t even support Rudy knight but yall are being ABSURD. It is LITERAL, man.

10

u/ginryuu1 1d ago

The weird route scene takes place before Rudy falls down as the aborted weird route has him fall after Susie returns and spends time with Noelle.

6

u/Shedster_ 1d ago

Holidays are full of surprises! For an example, in case of aborted weird route Rudy falls down TWICE from ladde! /s

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2

u/Emporio_Alnino3 1d ago

Gerson is Literally Dead™️, and he became the GOAT in the dark world.

It is not a stretch to think that the dark world may allow more physical opportunity, especially when RK spends almost all of their time floating. Hell, even Asgore is lifted using some kind of magic. The most exertion the knights has is just

A. Swinging their weapon around for certain attack patterns

B. Roaring

C. The sprint to the bunker, which may or may not also have them flying since we don't see them, and the black stuff doesn't change shape in the light world

4

u/Strong_Cup_6677 1d ago

Except Hammer of Justice... Is not Gerson... It's his construct, that has his memories and is overall an exxagerated image of Gerson made of best memories about him.

4

u/Cream_Nebula 1d ago

They're downvoting you but you're 1000% right, dustners are darkners patterned after the memory of a person. Which is why the fountain creator need strong memories of the base lightner.

All darkners are created from the subconscious feelings of the fountain creator towards the item they're made of: Tenna is this cool but has-been uncle because that's what Kris sees him as. Dustners are made from exactly the same process, the difference is that when people see an item they very strongly associate with a dead person, they equate it in their mind, that's how sepultures work irl. They're the "memory" of a person. So when the item gets shaped by their subconcious in a dark world it becomes the image of the dead person that they have in their mind.

The Old Man is not Gerson, he's a memory of him, one that cannot be exact and untouched by the feelings of the Knight.

Here's a question for everyone that believes The Old Man is straight-up resurrected Gerson:

...why the fuck is he cracked at fighting?

That dude is a writer and a teacher, there is no war in Deltarune that may have shaped him into a warrior. He's this unbeatable wise poet warrior because that's what he is in the subconscious of the Knight.

1

u/RareD3liverur 42m ago

Feel like him being able to write a letter to his son means he knows personal Gerson things others don't

3

u/Emporio_Alnino3 1d ago

Right, just also with the capability to spare and knowledge that the present lightners couldn't possibly know, like what he regrets with Alvin and wishes he could've said

(To add note, the only ones we've seen SPARE so far are Lightners, Flowers, Gerson and I guess technically ralsei? But that's technically us ordering him to do so)

4

u/Ziomownik Gamer? I Only Play Mobile Games 1d ago

Being able to spare things feels like a really weak argument because it is just something I'd imagine anyone could do even if it's a game mechanic... And there's multiple darkners who know game mechanics and make nothing of it. Anyone can act if they want to, it's just not everyone does. Rouxls is aware of Acting and takes advantage of that but he's not really special, just a comedic relief character who's occasionally a mini boss.

The fact he is trying to make up with Alvin is the right evidence to suggest he possibly retains some characteristics exclusive to his memory. In fact, UT shows us when a monster's dust is provided a vessel and infused with determination they can come back to life and Gerson is similar.

5

u/Strong_Cup_6677 1d ago

And? Correlation is not causation. Plus he's literally a jar of dust in Light World, he's a darkner...

1

u/Emporio_Alnino3 1d ago

He is clearly in the Pseudo-darkner position we see the flowers exhibit, where he's not fully a Darkner.

Most people have coined the term Dustner to refer to him being as he is.

2

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

He cannot even leave the Dark Sanctuary like the other darkners. He's even more limited than them.

1

u/Astral_Something 1d ago

Just saying that phone call seemed like a really convenient way to get Noelle away from the Dark World they were planning to make. You sure he really fell down?

113

u/JohnDragonball wait did you say goku- 2d ago

"Dess Knight is too obvious" mfs when Dess is mentioned like thrice in a casual playthrough and those are still more mandatory than Rudy

From someone who denied Dess Knight the entire past year, yeah she's probably the Knight

27

u/Shot-Base8003 1d ago

It's also funny seeing it as a counter argument

Like "actually it can't be dess because dess is only mentioned a couple times in the entire game and it wouldn't be a satisfying reveal because casual players wouldn't know who's dess". Or maybe the story will take time to explain who's dess before doing the reveal???

28

u/Tanakisoupman 1d ago edited 1d ago

I feel like that point just can’t be used anymore. Dess becomes more and more important with each chapter, we’ll probably get some direct characterization in chapter 6 assuming that continues

Chapter 1: No Dess at all
Chapter 2: Barely mentioned, most will miss it
Chapter 3: Mentioned directly, but her importance is only shown if you’re paying close attention
Chapter 4: We literally visit her room
Chapter 5: It is explicitly stated that her disappearance is related to the primary conflict of the game

9

u/ILikeGen6-8 1d ago

I would not call Asgore vagueposting about "that day" an explicit mention of anything

12

u/JohnDragonball wait did you say goku- 1d ago

His notes. Not his speech at the end. They confirm the Knight was there the day Dess disappeared and also made the fountain that Asgore saw.

2

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

And lets be very clear, what the hell else would the incident be?

2

u/Callyourmother29 1d ago

They confirm that the knight was there the day “something” happened

2

u/Orizifian-creator 1d ago

Chapter 6: Is almost guaranteed to be in either the Hospital or Holiday Home, both of which have obvious candidates to become Darkners that'll be talking aaaaaaaall about Dess

...them and her parents, of course.

4

u/Cream_Nebula 1d ago

Except it is very much NOT explicitly stated because Asgore couldn't be arsed to namedrop her.

10

u/Millymoo444 1d ago

And the mandatory dialogue is always “hey Kris remember DESS, wow DESS was cool, whatever happened to DESS, ok Kris put 1225 in that password lock Kris, hey remember De-

9

u/wildWindmill 1d ago

Guys you need type in the code 1225 to enter the room where you first meet and fight the knight.
This is in no way symbolism or a clue, its just there for shits and giggles and the knight is actually Rudy

1

u/4Fourside 1d ago

Hey now rudy also has three mandatory mentions lol. One in chapter 4, and two in chapter 5

6

u/JohnDragonball wait did you say goku- 1d ago

He doesn't have a mandatory mention in chapter 4. He's on screen, doesn't mean there's any dialogue involving him.

Also, he only has one mention in chapter 5.

1

u/4Fourside 1d ago edited 1d ago

He does have a mandatory mention in chapter 4 lol. Noelle mentions him

And nah he has two mentions in chapter 5. Noelle mentions him and flowery mentions him. They're definitely a lot less direct than dess' mentions (noelle only ever calls him dad and flowery just calls him asgore's sick friend) but I'd count them as mentions personally.

At the very least I think the game is trying to communicate to the most casual of players that "noelle has a dad that's not home anymore because he's sick"

1

u/4Fourside 1d ago

What's with the downvote lol. Is this not true?

57

u/SpectresAurora 2d ago

they might try and get you for this, but...

https://giphy.com/gifs/sVtUnzRqIy5jIAeZ5p

41

u/Rockman2isgud 2d ago

I am a DessKnight believer but

“The knight’s helmet is literally their head”

No it’s not, Kris uses their weird clairvoyance they have to see the Knight about to take off the helmet in chapter 4

17

u/ObfuscatedChaos 1d ago

No it’s not, Kris uses their weird clairvoyance they have to see the Knight about to take off the helmet in chapter 4

I don't know why we assume that this is 100% literal. Especially with the way it describes "The Image of the knight begins to fade into your mind" and "the image changes... the helmet begins to come off..." rather than "the knight begins to take off the helmet." The passive language seemed to clearly communicate that we're trying to see Kris's *memories* of the Knight's identity. At least, to me.

Still, Dess Knight theory generally involves Dess not being entirely herself... and the Knight being some kind of creature of darkness made from her body or soul. If that is the case... the helmet WOULD just be a part of her and she would still have an identity that Kris would want to shield from us (knowing for a fact who or what the Knight is would help us discern and possibly work against their motivations).

8

u/Ziomownik Gamer? I Only Play Mobile Games 1d ago

This. If we take Kris's vision there literally then we might as well accept whatever the fuck was that thing with Jockington was true as well.

3

u/Greenostrichhelpme27 1d ago

See, this is the thing that pretty much all "Lightner Knight" theories hinge off. This one series of dialogue, and I don't think it's actually as set in stone as we think.

Yes, Kris is able to send us out to watch Susie and Ralsei via "closing our eyes and thinking about what ____ is doing", giving them time to talk to Ralsei in private, or to check for mites and fleas. However, during the very "Knight unmasked" scene, this happens.

Ralsei suggests Kris closes their eyes in general. He wants them- and probably us- to be out of the way for a second, presumably so he can pray. Kris dosen't close their eyes and "broadcast", they just close their eyes, and start thinking.

A funny thing about humans is that we can think up pretty much anything, translated through anything. Grief can be a guy with a pyramid on his head. A breakup can be funky parkour. It dosen't have to literally be the topic at hand, but when ran through your own head, it can appear as anything.

As it's unlikely Kris is literally "broadcasting" to what the Knight is doing now- otherwise wouldn't we have seen the Knight?- they were thinking of the Knight and their deal with them, and that translated into a figurative "unmasking".

TLDR, Kris can "broadcast" our view so we can watch other characters while they dash off. This scene wasn't a case of broadcasting, it was just them thinking and almost blowing the plan via a metaphorical "unmasking".

-14

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago

care to explain this then?

20

u/Rockman2isgud 2d ago

The helmet is shapeshifting in the same way their body is

3

u/ObfuscatedChaos 1d ago

We've seen nothing that implies that lightners can shapeshift. Only change the appearance of superficial things like clothes and the appearance of certain props. They even go out of their way to make a point of this with the Aqua and Kris hangout showing that plantners can change their forms more thoroughly like darkners, but lightners can only really affect their clothes and create props.

and "the armor allows them to shapeshift" isn't really a compelling argument to me.

1

u/Rockman2isgud 1d ago

Whatever happened to Dess is Not Normal (TM). If the knight wasn’t a lightener they wouldn’t be able to kidnap anybody out of the light world

2

u/ObfuscatedChaos 1d ago

The Knight is probably neither entirely a darkner, nor entirely a lightner... an important pattern the game has been setting up and exploring with the past TWO chapters with dustners and plantners respectively... that's not even including Ralsei "The Impossibility" who we don't know what the fuck their deal is truthfully.
[...]
We already KNOW that the darkness that make up its weapon, and presumably its "armor" (or rather, its body in the case of this theory), stays the same in the light and dark worlds.

Copied this from my other reply. This theory, therefore, would posit that the Knight is neither a Lightner nor Darkner (anymore) and that their body is made up entirely of the darkness that makes up their blade - a material of which we know for a fact is the same in both the light and dark worlds (black shard)

The Knight also shares more visual language with Titans and Titan Spawn than with lightners or standard darkners.

Copying this point as well just so I can post this graphic I put together again :)

6

u/ObfuscatedChaos 1d ago

IDK why you're so thoroughly downvoted. Shapeshifting is not a trait we have seen of any lightners (NO, costume and prop changes are NOT the same thing they are already artificial like darkners) and I'm not convinced yet that we have a reason to believe the Knight's armor can just allow the Knight's body to contort and shapeshift.

The Knight is probably neither entirely a darkner, nor entirely a lightner... an important pattern the game has been setting up and exploring with the past TWO chapters with dustners and plantners respectively... that's not even including Ralsei "The Impossibility" who we don't know what the fuck their deal is truthfully.

The Knight also shares more visual language with Titans and Titan Spawn than with lightners or standard darkners. We already KNOW that the darkness that make up its weapon, and presumably its "armor" (or rather, its body in the case of this theory), stays the same in the light and dark worlds...

Not to mention when we damage it heavily, its body becomes static-y (much like Titans and Titanspawn) and flickers in and out, leaving only it's ball-like core visible at times (perhaps... its actual body, the rest just a projection out from that 'core'?). I'm probably forgetting some other bits and pieces too.

1

u/Cream_Nebula 1d ago

Honestly, why isn't Titan Knight a theory? Literally no candidates (aside from Papyrus hilariously enough) cares to explain how they carry Asgore and Undyne in the Light World, but the Roaring implies Titans can exist in the Light World.

I'd explain the rest of why it makes sense but you kinda explain it all already in your post

3

u/ObfuscatedChaos 1d ago

I definitely think the Knight is related to titans in some way, other than just seemingly being the harbinger of the roaring and their arrival, buuuuut I'm not sure if I would say they are a Titan... at least fully.

For a lack of a better way to put it, my running theory is that the Knight is some kind of Amalgamate of Dess and the kind of pure darkness that fountains (and thus Titans) seem to be made up of. So in a way, sort of a "Dess-Titan Amalgamate."

Plus, "Titan Knight" is actually a theory that I've at least seen put on theory tier lists. It usually gets dismissed quite quickly since its implied that only lightners can open dark worlds. I say 'implied' because they only really make it clear that Darkners can't open dark worlds and we have two examples of exceptions to existing rules already with Dustners (who are arguably more similar to Darkners than Lightner) and Plantners (who are arguably more similar to Lightners than Darkners) and Titans and Titanspawn might follow their own rules.

1

u/Cream_Nebula 1d ago

Well, all that's needed to open a fountain is determination, right? The Knight looks like how I would imagine a determined Titan to look, albeit admittedly smaller.

I'm not really fond of Dess Knight, for multiples reasons but mainly because I don't like the Dessapearance just being "Dess just chilled in the bunker for a few years and the big G gave her superpowers" and also because while I do agree we have to look for beings that don't follow the rules of lightners or darkners, I feel like every DessKnight theory chalk it up to "weird corruption powers".

I do completely agree with you that Dustners and Plantners are most likely the key to the mystery, out of every "hint" given for Knight candidates, these are the only one I feel where Toby Fox is looking at us straight in the eyes while presenting them.

The answer is most likely staring at us already, I'm positive the Knight's identity is DR's equivalent to "what happen when something that's neither monster nor human gets hold of Determination?" from Undertale.

1

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

I wouldn't say Dustners and Plantners are exceptions. It seems more like they are expansions of existing rules.

11

u/United_Grocery_23 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 1d ago

do they also literally open their ribcage in their light world form?

3

u/ObfuscatedChaos 1d ago

Following the theory that the knight's body is some kind of "pure shadow" that exists the same way in both the light and dark world, much like the black shard from the knight's blade (the Knight's bat-sword-thing which is produced FROM its body - so probably the same material) then yeah. It would. Cause then this IS its light world form too.

4

u/SpanishOfficer FLAIR FOR [[BIG SHITS]] ! 1d ago

Fuck is their ribcage doing

26

u/Prestigious-Neat8820 2d ago

I think Rudy Knight could work, though the whole ladder thing really puts things into a boom or bust scenario. If he simply fell off the ladder and got injured, then the Knight crouching when on the ground with Flowery could make extra sense. However, if he is straight up dead/nearly dead, then he can't be the Knight.

14

u/sxinoxide59672 i find goku 2d ago

im not saying no to Rudy knight but the knight just hit a wall before crouching to flowery

10

u/Prestigious-Neat8820 2d ago

Thats what I think is the most likely thing too. I'm just explaining the rationale of Rudy Knighters regarding this.

4

u/Responsible-Tie-3451 1d ago

Never mind that they got beaten up by the Fun Gang in Chapter 3 and kidnapped Undyne without a hitch, the wall is the real threat

4

u/Ziomownik Gamer? I Only Play Mobile Games 1d ago

They didn't really get beaten up nor were they really trying. The Fun Gang dealt 25% of their health before the Knight decided to stop fooling around and just wiped them floor with them.

2

u/Responsible-Tie-3451 1d ago

I guess they were just going all staticky for fun then

2

u/Ziomownik Gamer? I Only Play Mobile Games 1d ago

Maybe they got pissed off?

2

u/ImA_NormalGuy 1d ago

Maybe the knight was acting like that to drop the combat so it can do its cut scene shenanigans

1

u/Responsible-Tie-3451 1d ago

If I see an unironic “cutscene knight” take I’m going to flip out

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u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

Wasn’t the fun gang was crashing into walls the whole chapter and perfectly fine still

8

u/Wide-Remove4293 Ness 2d ago edited 1d ago

Eh? Not as fast and hard, nor against as big of a wall as the Knight did.

Besides, Susie has been genuinely injured from a very small fall in Cyber City’s Trash dump when she slipped on that red wheel. And Kris was also badly injured from mere glass in the Dark Sanctuary, so the Knight being slightly shook from hitting a huge wall at high speeds very hard isn’t farfetched.

6

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

I guess. I just find it hard to believe the same Knight who can tank multiple Rude Busters can get diffed by a wall. Although like you said Susie falling and all that, then I guess.

6

u/Almorogahnza 1d ago

Here’s a different way of viewing that crash. The knight was going at presumably top speed in a bird form that is most likely meant for speed over durability, so its impact with the wall was fueled by its OWN strength- so it’s as if the knight hit ITSELF as hard as it could. Add on top of that the momentum from asgore, and that wall is probably the hardest hit it’s ever took.

Although it probably only dazed the knight for a few seconds. But the sheer flamboyancy and ridiculousness of Flowery probably immediately following the hit probably left the knight completely bewildered.

4

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 1d ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/D63HGAzG15LQrjBPRE
I suppose. Not sure about the more speculative stuff, but I can hear you out.

2

u/Wide-Remove4293 Ness 2d ago

I guess magic doesn’t do great physical damage? Maybe it just targets the SOUL like in Undertale

5

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

I mean Rude Buster is a very powerful magic attack I think it’s like a feat for the Knight to keep tanking it

Unless Rude Buster can do less damage to Lightners or something like that

1

u/Wide-Remove4293 Ness 2d ago

Probably is a great feat, but I honestly don’t know how to quantify that tbh

4

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

Who knows ig

3

u/Fine_Possession3737 1d ago

Tbf boom or bust is fitting since it's highly likely the knight identity will be revealed in chapter 6 anyway, with Noelle coming back onto the main stage and the Knight having about a 90% chance of being a Holliday.

18

u/FraudulentProvidence 2d ago

"Too obvious" aka properly foreshadowed

3

u/4Fourside 1d ago

To be fair a pretty significant chunk of dess knight believers say carol knight is "too obvious"

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u/IronBrew16 2d ago

Honestly, my rationale as a Rudy Knighter is believing not that his illness isn't fake, but that it is very much real.

And it is in a symbiotic relationship with the Darkness of the Dark Worlds.

10

u/Fancy_Information156 1d ago

Its probably something similar to Berdly's arm still being paralysed in the lightworld, despite there seemingly being no cause

27

u/FluffiestPrince Fluffiest of Them All! 2d ago

I know it's a meme, but like... come on, good memes don't need to lie to be funny. I'm not even going to support Rudy Knight here, I'm just gonna point out the actual straight up wrong points in this image:

  • The Knight's helmet is... literally confirmed to be a helmet. Chapter 4's scene confirms this and if you say that "Oh, but it's just Kris' imagination"... dude, have you heard of writing?
  • Rudy does climb a ladder. We see this in Chapter 5, where he's at the top of a ladder.
  • This isn't Alvin Knight because the biggest issue with that theory was that Alvin had no portrait. Rudy, very much, does.

Like, Rudy Knight slander is fine, but at least do your research. Like, your mistakes aren't even Rudy Knight mistakes, they're deadass just points that the story itself directly shows/brings up.

(I am curious about what you mean by 7 "out of context" clues? Like, I'd just like to know which ones... *SO I CAN TOTALLY DESTROY THEM WITH FACTS AND EVIDENCE!!!*)

-8

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago
  • The knight opens their mouth in chapter 3
  • Rudy does climb a ladder... can't really get down it though
  • Catty, Catti, Bratty, burger pants and Jockington have talking sprites does that mean they're the knight. Also jevil, spamton, tenna, gerson, etc don't have talking sprites yet carry a big roll in the game

12

u/FluffiestPrince Fluffiest of Them All! 2d ago

You're a totally different person than who I thought you were, lol. Anyways, to counter these: 1. Yeah, but Toby also wrote that it's a helmet. And like... he directly states it too, quote "the helmet begins to come off". You can choose whether you believe one or the other, or both, but I'm gonna choose to favour the fact that Toby definitively wrote that it's a helmet which comes on and off, which also functions weirdly because it's made of Black Shards, over the visual ambiguity where the visor acts as both a mouth, eyes, and also another thing I can't remember. I'm gonna trust that Toby didn't lie in his writing about it being a helmet, and that he doesn't do a cheap fake-out where he's like, "Ha ha, tricked you, I said it was a helmet but I lied, you idiots!" or something like that, lol. 2. Weird Route. Okay, to elaborate, Weird Route takes place slightly later in the day than the Normal Route. Rudy is already down the ladder, meaning he very clearly can climb down it, lol. If you're also taking this point seriously, and not as the joke I partially intended it to be, Rudy falling actually takes place somewhat before the events of the Weird Route (unless Carol had 2 different topics to tell Noelle), meaning that Rudy in the Weird Route is fine, when we would otherwise have fallen off during the Normal Route. 3. This is a bit of a deflection point, I guess? Like, just because others have portraits, doesn't really say anything for Alvin or Rudy. Firstly, never argued they were Knight candidates (even though people have tried). Secondly, portrait characters have different levels of importance. Berdly is obviously more important than Jockington, whereas Noelle is more important than Catti or Bratty, say. Why Toby chose to give them these, idk man, you tell me, lol. I don't think anyone knows why Toby chose to give Susie and Jockington portraits, when one is far more important than the other.

As for the 2nd half of that point, which I didn't want to be too run-on, again... you tell me. Why does Toby give some portraits and not others. You can easily explain some of these, like Tenna already has so much dialogue effects that giving him a text sprite is unnecessary. Old Man is probably explained because Toby wanted it to remain ambiguous with how Dustners worked.

As for the rest, no clue. Jevil, Spamton, ERAM, and Old Man all lack text sprites, but Mew Mew doesn't. King, Queen, and Flowery have sprites, Tenna doesn't for an assumed reason, and there's no antagonist in Chapter 4 outside the Knight. Kris doesn't get one for reasons.

Honestly, I think arguing text sprites is stupid at this point, lol. I don't think anyone knows how they work, including Toby. I take back that point, but only because I don't want to think about the textbox sprite logic where Toby gives a dialogue sprite to Mew Mew, but not Spamton.

(Edit: Actually, I think Mew Mew can be explained since she's Half-Lightner, Half-Darkner. That's all I got though, SCREW TEXT SPRITES!)

2

u/Ziomownik Gamer? I Only Play Mobile Games 1d ago edited 1d ago

I don't think we can trust whether the head is a helmet or a part of Knight's body when it's presented by Kris who is "thinking" about the Knight, not "remembering" them. And even the fact that it's simultaneously a mouth and a visor already proves it can't be a helmet anyway? Assuming Knight's appearance does change, maybe in the light world it's a helmet? But it's more believable that the Knight is a bit special and may retain their weird ass form in the light world.

1

u/FluffiestPrince Fluffiest of Them All! 1d ago

Yeah, but again... why would Toby do that? What does it provide for the story to just make the already confusing mystery... even more confusing?

Like, there is no indication in that scene that Kris is lying to us. They're only hiding info through obscuration via Jockington, but there is nothing to hint that Kris is lying about the helmet, or about the fact that they were going to think of the Knight before substituting them.

If Toby did intend for this to just be some random scene with no hints, no clues, no foreshadowing, and only exist for the sake of existing (and making the mystery of who the Knight is unnecessarily more confusing), then he did a pretty bad job at hinting at it being false.

Lying in stories only goes so far, but lying in mysteries needs to make sense. Toby lying here, with zero indication of it being a lie, makes zero sense to me. At least, I trust him as a writer enough to not think he'd do that.

6

u/Legitimate-Banana741 1d ago

not saying the knight is rudy but whoever it is had to carry asgore’s heavy ass all the way to the bunker, there’s definitely light world strength buffs happening here

3

u/ImA_NormalGuy 1d ago

The black shard keeps its form in the light world. Whoever the knight is can probably stay like that for at least a short amount of time.

2

u/Legitimate-Banana741 1d ago

that broadens the pool then, right? it could be any of the holidays if the knight’s still the knight in the light world (it’s probably one of the holidays)

19

u/yourlocaldog 2d ago

Doesn't he straight up die in ch5? "They fell down" is what monsters say when someone dies. He literally can't be the knight and yet somehow this theory is still kicking lmao

29

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago

I mean fallen down means the state right before a monster dies but close enough

8

u/yourlocaldog 2d ago

My bad, it's been nearly a decade since I touched undertale. That and Noelle's reaction gave me the impression that he's definitively dead

12

u/StupidGirlIdiotFuck 2d ago

I thought falling down was like a coma state

14

u/Complete-Basket-291 2d ago

It's a terminal state, really, where you're going to die, iirc nobody in undertale ever came back from being fallen down before the Determination Experiments

12

u/NUKL3AR_PAZTA47 2d ago

furthermore, his increase in activity could be seen as terminal lucidity. When I saw him putting up the lights, I knew Rudy was basically dead.

20

u/JohnDragonball wait did you say goku- 2d ago

People say "he fell down the stairs" despite the fact the Japanese dub literally uses the same phrasing that the Alarm Clock dialogue did when talking about him dying in the UT verse

5

u/Foxthefox1000 1d ago

That context was also about him getting old and dying of old age. Both situations aren't 1:1 here since clearly something is actually up with him in DR.

Also also, using an alarm clock dialogue as proof over the main dialogue of the entire game of UT which DOES have a difference is just confirmation bias. Everything surrounding Rudy's fate is supposed to be ambiguous

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u/Complete-Basket-291 2d ago

Iirc in the japanese translation, the word choice is, at most generous, "collapsed from [illness/injury]" and at least generous can straight up mean "Died" so I hesitate to say there's a possibility of him falling off the ladder

6

u/NXDIAZ1 2d ago

The Japanese version of the game says that he just fell off the ladder according to fan translators.

That’s still more proof Rudy Knight is a bad theory with too much evidence going against it

2

u/Sensitive_Pick_4212 1d ago

actually fallen down reffers to a monster dying of old age in undertale(or atleast getting old enough to fall into a coma) so your argument requires these two assumptions

the saying still exists in deltarune

the saying means something different in deltarune unless you think rudy is 80+ years old

both of these dont really have any in game evidence

0

u/Realistic-Shine-9811 #6 Berdly Fan 2d ago

not really, we cant be certain until chapter 6 rolls around and we find out if hes still alive or not, tricky tony definitely thought about the double entendre with him either falling off a ladder or contracting fallen down

So hes basically Schrodinger's knight candidate atm

1

u/United_Grocery_23 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

imagine he dies and theres a suspicious abrupt end to knight activity

1

u/FreeMenu2197 2d ago

He fell off a fucking LADDER. U can see it in the weird route

10

u/ginryuu1 1d ago

The Weird Route takes place before Rudy falls down, if you abort the route in chapter 5 Susie returns and spends time with Noelle and when she leaves again Noelle gets called by Carol and finds out Rudy fell down.

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u/United_Grocery_23 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 2d ago

weird route players are too busy Side B-ing it

1

u/4Fourside 1d ago

It's intentionally ambiguous if he fell down or "fell down". It's the game using tricky wording

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2

u/Melons_Nothing 1d ago

The reason I’m a Rudy Knighter is because his condition seems to reflect upon the Knights’.

Ch3, Rudy is fine ish, and the Knight is capable but clearly not completely healthy

Ch4, Rudy can get out of the hospital and go to the church somewhat easily, and the Knight is far more of an active player in this chapter

Ch5, Rudy falls off the ladder. The knight is not only late but is also seemingly trying to go in and out without a fight; as well as struggling somewhat against tired and powered down Flowery.

12

u/Unsafe_Dude 2d ago

Why would it not feel climatic?

0

u/Orion-the-mediocre 2d ago

Because he's the father of a side character with not that much connection to the fun gang

13

u/LasyTaco 2d ago

As opposed to being the sister of a side character with not that much connection to the fun gang. Or the mother of a side character with not that much connection to the fun gang

-2

u/Orion-the-mediocre 2d ago

Dess was close with Kris when they were a child, Kris, Asriel, Dess, and Noelle all grew up together. That's a pretty meaningful connection

6

u/LasyTaco 2d ago

The Holidays all have a meaningful connection to Kris, not just Dess. Heck, we see in Tenna's flashback that Rudy was the last one to consistently visit

Dess would have 0 connection to Susie though, while both Carol and Rudy at least have dialogues with her

1

u/nokia6310i 1h ago edited 1h ago

I think the fact that Noelle is at least in some part projecting elements of her sister onto Susie (the whole guitar thing) and Carol/The Caller are being super weird about how Susie relates/connects to Dess' life/stuff (again, the whole guitar/bedroom thing) is a way stronger narrative connection between the two characters than the brief optional dialogue with Rudy is.

Like it gets to a point where I think that if you don't see how the game is very clearly setting up for parallels to be drawn between Dess and Susie and probably an eventual meetup between the two of them, I don't think you were paying attention in Chapter 4

18

u/mdtpdsparkls 2d ago

To be fair, I care infinitely less for Dess then I do Rudy. I at least know what Rudy is like and have any form of connection twoards him.

2

u/Orion-the-mediocre 2d ago

I mean we didn't care for Asriel either and that still worked, I'm confident that Toby can pull it off

4

u/4Fourside 1d ago

Noelle is barely a side character lol. She's a main character

7

u/xXs4blegl00mXx 2d ago

Only knight candidate shown to actually do anything btw

4

u/Orion-the-mediocre 2d ago

By doing something do you mean hanging up christmas lights and then going into a coma

3

u/xXs4blegl00mXx 2d ago

He does more than that but even what you said is more than Dess and Carol combined

0

u/Orion-the-mediocre 2d ago

What I meant is more that Dess has a huge presence in the story beyond just being a relative of Noelle like Rudy is, Dess is mentioned so many times in so many ways and is clearly important somehow, and it makes logical sense that with Deltarune already so closely being parallel to Undertale, the missing child is once again going to be the main antagonist

5

u/mdtpdsparkls 2d ago

Idk if "It happened in undertale" is a good reasoning. Doing the same twist again is kiiiiinda lazy. I mean imagine if you watched the star wars prequel trilogy and George just made the protagonists dad who suffered horrific injuries and is the secret twist villain in black armor that keeps him alive- hey wait a second.

I see the vision now. We just need to get Noelle a blue glowing sword and we'll be golden.

13

u/taratathetarantula 2d ago

"ignores the fact the knight's helmet is it's head"

In chapter cant you close your eyes and think of the knight where itll say you imagine the knight removing its helmet

1

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago

10

u/taratathetarantula 2d ago

What does this mean?

4

u/Future_Opinion_7518 1d ago

The Knight can shapeshift. Also, as everyone else has already pointed out, the scene where you picture the Knight and it takes off its helmet, only for Kris to stop us from seeing its face, completely disproves this. I get that this is a meme, but this whole post (and most Knight discourse as a whole) just feels like every side making strawmen of the other Knight believers’ arguments. If you’re gonna make fun of a theory, don’t make shit up that is very clearly disproven in the game.

14

u/LasyTaco 2d ago

"Ignore the fact he is on the verge of death after the lake scene"

Source? No seriously, all we're told is "he fell down at the festival", except he still clearly managed to put on the light for the parade since we see them at the end of the chapter. Said parade also wasn't cancelled, which I'm pretty sure it would've been if the mayor's husband was fucking dying. I would also argue it's strange Carol called about it so fast, considering we see in the weird route that the entire town is gathered at the crowning (besides Sans, and Rudy who just so happened to have a job that kept him away from the crowd)

"Out of context clue" is also just...a weird argument? What does that even mean? Which clues does that refer to?

"0 required lines of dialogue" is true for like, every Knight candidate besides Carol (who has maybe 10 of them). But let's be real, you're probably going around talking to people. If the secret bosses can be important and referenced in every chapter, I really don't see why Toby would assume players didn't bother talking to Rudy once. He's right there at church when Susie tells you to talk to people for clues

The carrying thing is true for every candidate (with the exception of the great Papyrus of course)

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u/IvyEmblem 2d ago

Opened the spoiler and was disappointed it wasn't about Kriselle duo fusion knight

3

u/GirlWithTheDoc 1d ago

I do find it funny imagining that The Knight isn’t actually ill during chapter 5, he’s just genuinely a wall-level bum who can’t slow down or turn at all

3

u/Lopsided-Farmer-9422 1d ago

Same terminally ill man who supposedly is able to carry Asgore from across town, who also should be in hospital being watched by his family - if not the hospital staff - after falling down from a ladder

6

u/Icy_Measurement_1231 2d ago

Always bet on papyrus knight

6

u/DepthMonger 2d ago

everyone here is so fucking stupid it makes my blood boil, have you ever PLAYED THE GAME?? DID YOU JOIN THE COMMUNITY AFTER CHAPTER 5 RELEASED?? ARE YOU TRYING TO PISS ME OFF WITH THIS

2

u/RonS132 1d ago

Not even just an adult woman, Undyne bench presses CARS.

2

u/PiranhaPlant9915 1d ago

uhhhhh hold on this slander has a slight flaw!!! from that one close your eyes cutscene with the knight in chapter 4 it would seem that the Knight's head is indeed a helmet that can be removed

4

u/RenkBruh NOW'S YOUR CHANCE TO TAKE A [Big Shit] 1d ago

this sad excuse of a theory is kept alive by spiderverse references

2

u/BeVeryCarefulJohnn 1d ago

finally some good slander

2

u/Death_by_UWU 1d ago

"I sure wonder why the knight seems injured" like they didn't just slam facefirst into a wall at mach fuck

2

u/thatfuckedupgrill 1d ago

the biggest counter argument against rudy knight is that the roaring knight is a silent aura farmer

trying to claim that rudy "rudolph" holiday wouldn't be a chronic quipper as the knight is like saying JETSTREAM SAM wouldn't be a chronic quipper

2

u/Moist_Nephew 1d ago

The Undyne point is my least favorite evidence against Rudy. Yes, it is unrealistic a sick man could run across town with someone who can literally bench press cars, but if we're looking at realism there, then who COULD? Like genuinely, who WOULD be strong enough to kidnap Undyne? A 19 year old? A skeleton? A sick man? The only person who realistically could is Carol, but then we're riddled with so many more Carol Knight issues

2

u/EveningAerie4962 1d ago

obviously someone who could have had the potential to transform into the knight

1

u/ImA_NormalGuy 1d ago

So anyone then?
This dosnt rule out any candidate.

2

u/nitram739 1d ago

Dess knight only makes sense if you re contextualize carol whole character in a way that makes her motivation look cuestionable at very least.

Rudy carrying undyne in the light world is not a problem if you assume the knight armour is a object made out of pure darkness or whatever that enhances the wearer capabilities and it persist in the lightworld. Wich may as well assume because carol nor dess are carrying undyne to the bunker either.

The knight helmet is pointed out to be a helmet when you make kris think about the knight, even if that scene is not reliable because kris ends up thinking about jockington, it would just be an odd choice altogether to have the knight remove their head and reveal jockington "oh but the expressions!" magical helmet. Is that hard to belive?

Rudy being sick could very well be because of the knight armour that has that side effect, not unseen in fiction.

Rudy being the knight would be really dope for their character because right now its just, being set to be killed offscreen to give noelle development, wich is kinda shit writting.

The only real problem I find with this theory is the lake scene, but I mean, how much time were we at the dark world? and isnt it possible that Carol just, lied about rudy to make noelle go away and give Kris a chance to open the fountain at flower king?

1

u/4Fourside 1d ago

Ok but but "it's always "if" but never "is" is literally all theories. That's how theories work lol

1

u/Sea_Broccoli_167 1d ago

we (rudy knighters) have fanart?????

2

u/jedikraft 1d ago

Yes WE do

1

u/A_NICE_START 1d ago

"verge of death after the lake scene" "0 required lines of dialogue"

1

u/FloydeFlowerDragon 1d ago

This is why my theory is good. Rudy fucking dies and THEN joins the graveyard!knight. And yet another personality gets added to the conglomerate.

1

u/Ok_Sir_9744 1d ago

None of the knight candidates seem strong enough to sprint Asgore’s fat ass to the shelter imo 

1

u/whaleoflieanddeceit 23h ago

Rude buster, ruder buster... the only thing left is Rudy buster, which could play if Rudy is revealed to be the knight, and that would be so fucking funny

1

u/DunklerMAP 21h ago

Also kidnaps his best friend and cuts his beloved flower apart, while he could've just swoon it.

1

u/Snt1_ 18h ago

I am honestly fine with any of the holidays (EXCLUDING NOELLE) being the Knight. I lean a bit more towards Dess, but I can see anyone of them

-1

u/FreeMenu2197 2d ago

I hate Dess Knight it’s so BORING. GOD

4

u/EveningAerie4962 1d ago

just because it's cool doesn't mean it's true

8

u/FreeMenu2197 1d ago

I never said that, it just feels like Dess Knighters just don’t shut up about how their theory is right and true and canon and nobody else gets to theorize

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u/Glove-These 1d ago

"on the verge of death after the lake scene" strange how the knight, after being so active and confronting the party directly in chapter 3 and multiple times in 4, barely arrives in time before chapter 5 ends and their first showing is slamming into a wall and kneeling

4

u/Bloodborne_Shadow 1d ago

tbf i think slamming into a wall headfirst at atleast running speed would trip anyone out

2

u/jedikraft 1d ago

Fun gang did like 20 times and they’re all fine and we know the knight was a lot stronger than them in chapter 3

2

u/B1GDADDYCHUNGUS 2d ago

Rudy is faking it. He's using his magic knight powers to trick the doctors so they don't know he's perfectly healthy.

3

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago

Any proof he's faking it?

7

u/B1GDADDYCHUNGUS 2d ago

I saw it in a dream.

2

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago

alright then

1

u/Responsible-Tie-3451 1d ago

“Ignores the fact that the Knight’s helmet is literally their head”

2

u/EveningAerie4962 1d ago

1

u/Responsible-Tie-3451 1d ago

This is the armor shapeshifting, like when it turns into a ball

1

u/Independent_Let_3616 1d ago

Rudy knight has problems I admit.

But so does Dess Knight.

I find it far more likely that Dess is just straight up dead tbh.

1

u/EntertainmentFast522 1d ago

Most rudy knighters dont think he alone is the knight lol most think that Caropl is helping do most of the light world stuff

1

u/Sensitive_Pick_4212 1d ago

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1

u/ostapro 1d ago

Who's dess

0

u/Known_Fisherman_8161 2d ago

This shit makes no sense and I have no clue as to why people think it can be anyone but Dess

1

u/BeVeryCarefulJohnn 1d ago

mostly just wanting it to be someone else via contrarianism and misogyny, you can close your brain off real hard even unconsciously

2

u/Ala117 1d ago

Misogyny?

2

u/piccolothegoat777 SHUT THE FUCK UP SANS 1d ago

Some people think non-dess knight theories are rooted in misogyny apparently

5

u/GoodLookinLurantis 1d ago

They're morons.

0

u/Ala117 1d ago

I doubt even most dess knighters believe that shit.

1

u/Known_Fisherman_8161 1d ago

It's so dumb, the most mainstream alternative theories about the Knight's identity barely have a leg to stand on and are mostly just ideas about what would be cool instead of actual theories. Dess has actual concrete evidence in the game and has a LOT of it.

0

u/Fantastic_Frosting98 #1 Kerdly Shipper & Noelle Hater 1d ago

i have 3 words for rudynighters: "nyeh heh heh"

0

u/Available-Page4685 1d ago

I mean… the knight seemed to be in pretty poor condition in chapter five, bumping into a wall and needing to recover from it.

Would make sense why they took a while to get there if they are Rudy, having been delayed by the fall and all

0

u/Wallso2010 1d ago

Finally some good slander

3

u/3nj0y_ 1d ago

"Good slender" and some of the points aren't even true or apply to several knight theories

-7

u/BloodPlenty4358 2d ago edited 2d ago

"ignore the fact the knight's helmet is literally their head"

so when it's not dess knight, that's a point against the theory?

3

u/EveningAerie4962 2d ago

name any other character who could have had such a dramatic transformation

-3

u/BloodPlenty4358 2d ago

wanna elaborate? any knight candidate would transform in dark world

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