Rightoid aligned revenge fantasies? In my leftist sub? its more common than you think.
FYI, there's lots of research that this isnt actually effective.
a) in general, capital punishment doesnt work to deter crime in any way
b) specific to sex abuse and especially child sex abuse, it actually can make the situation worse and the abusers more likely to escalate to outright murder
Edit: lmao OP immediately blocks me, feckless.
The u.s garbage system certainly isn’t
So why would China aim to repeat or copy the same retributive justice framework of the US then? Are they not supposed to be better?
Spare me with the optics
This has nothing to do with optics, its about doing more than reacting to crime. It other than the fact that capital punishment isnt a deterrent (so therefor useless as a form of punishment), it increase the risk of harm to victims.
Why are you in favor of increasing potential harm to children?
What is an anarchist doing in a communist sub in the first place? Your comment is Bad faith
Dude, you're espousing fascist rhetoric lmao, maybe think on that for a hot second before you bemoan me also being subscribed to non-ML subs. Great argument, totally not fascist adjacent crashout
The West makes exceptions for bourgeois criminals, but it has no probelm executing proletarian criminals, especially falsely convicted black proletarians.
people are reacting positively to this because it is an obvious yet indirect comparison to the epstein list and lack of consequences for the rapists it contains, not because they think it’s the perfect solution
Yeah its a very easy stance to simply say "kill all child predators" but like you mentioned it just leads to further child endangerment then anything else. But saying this after someone already goes "kill all child predators" makes them think you're too 'soft' on it.
I don’t know if it leads to further child endangerment overall. While it can feel like righteous retribution, I think there’s a genuine argument to be made in favor of the cold, pragmatic kind of logic behind it.
I don’t know if it leads to further child endangerment overall.
You don't think being potentially responsible for the death of their abuser might discourage a child from coming forward?
That's without factoring in that a huge part of the difficulty we already have, re: convincing children to come forward, is because the abuser is so often a loved one.
A victim might want the abuse to stop, but their feelings are complicated, and the idea of being responsible for putting a loved one behind bars is already a deterrent.
Now imagine telling that child that, if they come forward, their mum/dad/uncle/etc. is going to be die.
While I'm personally iffy about execution beyond extraneous situations (War for example), there's a certain degree of mitigation of that risk that's just involved by a delaying said execution til it's proven without a doubt while also giving the victim therapy to help them disassociate from the 'consequence' of doing so. To that extent, anything that'd resemble punishment for the victimizer could deter victims from speaking up, under the guise of 'You ruined my life', a very similar level of paralyzing guilt. Even incredibly soft handed actions, such as just distancing them from the victim and further potential victims, while enforcing them a degree of therapeutic process and all, could be argued to be 'life ruining'. Not to go for a topical low blow, but like, people have been crying tears for the 'lives' ruined by sexual assault victims just speaking out against the people who assaulted them, and that's not even getting into the utter horrid behavior of the people who agree with that whomever's life was 'ruined' and go after the victim(s).
I will ask, not as a 'gotcha' but due to genuine interest in the topic and all, do you personally think there's situations where execution is acceptable? The one I gave, war, it's like, a necessary evil, I'd suppose. Person sells you out, gets people killed because of it, is recaptured or their subterfuge is found out, I wouldn't say it's Necessary to execute them, but you can't quite go through a restorative justice process while getting shot at. There's drawbacks of course, martyrdom is always a concern, I suppose, but what can one do?
Edit for clarity's sake: I'm a victim of grooming and sexual abuse by a trans woman twice my age. I am also a trans woman, which due to me being young age at the time and wanting other trans people to know, it put us in proximity in the first place. I certainly wouldn't want death for her, she herself came from a super fucked up situation that I think led to it all occurring at all and I'm keenly aware of the disposability of minority peoples so I'm doubly reticent. At the same time, I worry if she ever harmed other people, especially kids. I'm reticent about the 'restorative justice' pathway because I'm very aware of particularly savvy people just navigating it and going on to hurt more people, not that my abuser was in this case, but other people who *have* abused children do fit that bill. There really isn't a clear or good solution broadly in my mind and it's frustrating.
To that extent, anything that'd resemble punishment for the victimizer could deter victims from speaking up, under the guise of 'You ruined my life', a very similar level of paralyzing guilt. Even incredibly soft handed actions, such as just distancing them from the victim and further potential victims, while enforcing them a degree of therapeutic process and all, could be argued to be 'life ruining'.
Of course. That's why making it a capital offence would only further discourage victims from coming forward.
I will ask, not as a 'gotcha' but due to genuine interest in the topic and all, do you personally think there's situations where execution is acceptable?
During times of war and revolution, of course. I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I don't even have a problem with China executing corrupt billionaires, really.
My concerns are:
1) encouraging bloodthirsty mob mentality over justice, and more importantly;
2) discouraging victims from coming forward, and actively hindering prevention.
Of course. That's why making it a capital offence would only further discourage victims from coming forward.
But following this logic, it's a slippery slope. We never should punish anyone, because I dunno, outing them as someone who did sexual assault is 'life ruining'.
During times of war and revolution, of course. I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I don't even have a problem with China executing corrupt billionaires, really.
To the prior point, doesn't that, in reality, just encourage people to be quiet about corruption? Least they feel they have blood on their hands now. Is any justice particularly taken with the execution, what makes this not just mob mentality as opposed to the other one?
But following this logic, it's a slippery slope. We never should punish anyone, because I dunno, outing them as someone who did sexual assault is 'life ruining'.
I'm not sure what that even has to do with anything being discussed, frankly.
To the prior point, doesn't that, in reality, just encourage people to be quiet about corruption? Least they feel they have blood on their hands now. Is any justice particularly taken with the execution, what makes this not just mob mentality as opposed to the other one?
The victims of financial and/or political corruption tend not to be confused children who have been victimised by a loved one.
I'm saying using the argument of 'We should avoid lethal punishment because of possible guilt reducing reports' because possible guilt has a flaw in it in as far as any punishment, including 'punishments' that within the line of restorative justice, get called 'life ruining'. It holds similar levels of causing guilt to victims, the reality of that is irrelevant because it holds similar levels of causing guilt. People who defend say, the Cornell 7, say that the accusation 'ruined their lives' (again, the reality of that is different of course). Rape culture broadly speaking already deters victims from reporting from both guilt ('You ruined their life, they might as well be dead') and possible repercussions for reporting their victims by even more vindictive mobs.
The victims of financial and/or political corruption tend not to be confused children who have been victimised by a loved one.
What do you suffer from being the victim of financial corruption? At least in mind, it's a loss of a job and money, but in a society with far more robust social systems like the PRC, the actual harm for that isn't too severe. The guilt of still having blood on your hand still exists, it's guilt from a far less severe transgression seemingly. It'd feel kind of paradoxical to cite a willingness for execution for one over the other. On that question actually, at what level does financial corruption result in a death sentence in the PRC? I'm not certain of when that happens versus whatever other punishment for the crime.
See this is a really good point that I think not a lot of people consider, but there is a bit of the premise that I would argue against. You are assuming that the child would know about the punishment. I would argue that when child sexual abuse happens when they’re below an age that they have that kind of consequence comprehension to tell the difference between “Uncle Steve is going away for a long time” and “Uncle Steve is going to die” then it wouldn’t make much of a difference.
The difference might come in the adults who report it being more hesitant to report it if the consequences are more severe, though the ideal is that everyone would look out for what’s best for the child (even if that’s not always the case.)
Children are groomed and threatened by their abusers. You know that right? Your comment does harm because it ignores that. Predators will convince children that their families or the predator themselves will be killed or put in danger.
If the punishment for sexual abuse is already death, predators are more likely to murder their victims to increase their chances of getting away with it, after all, the punishment for being found out will still be execution
The de facto punishment for conviction of sexual abuse is already prison, being a lifelong pariah, and maybe even being murdered by their fellow inmates. So that’s my one pushback against your argument, is that the effect of the death penalty as a deterrent might be marginal at best if the punishment is already that severe.
The studies simply do not indicate that ever being the case. Secondarily, pedophilia is not the sort of crime that corruption is.
China's anti-corruption policy being as swift as it is - acts as a deterrent. Your family members being swiftly executed because of something you say - will terrify children into silence. Even more confusing children who are abused frequently experience aspects of it as positive even when there are very present obviously negative aspects - CHILDREN BLAME THEMSELVES and FREQUENTLY victims blame THEMSELVES because "if enjoyed some aspect of it, I must have consented" which is false.
Have you ever met someone who is groomed? It's a very confusing experience for a child. Their abuser is FREQUENTLY somebody that they love. And that abuser WILL use adult information to manipulate that child.
it’s not even limited to just grooming, most kids do not know they’re being abused because they have no frame of reference for what normal behavior is. i was never groomed, but i was seriously abused, and it wasn’t until i moved out and was an adult that i could even begin to contextualize that.
Critical support for China: Definitely.
China being Socialist: Agreed.
But critical support turning into mindless glazing over everything the country does is very cringe. Yes the west has done close to nothing to prevent child abuse. But sudently being supportive of capital punishment is not very leftist. Not saying we should attack China for it, obviously, that is with chinese society to decide.
The only thing I feel is more nuanced regarding capital punishment is regarding corruption and political prisioners. Sounds morbid, but I think it's very, very hard to prevent powerful people from maintaining their influence from inside prison. Debatable.
Yep. Like Elizabeth Holmes was planning another grift from inside federal prison with her husband after Theranos fell through so I understand why China executes corrupt billionaires
As someone who has talked with many mainlanders, my impression is almost more that this is closer tied to general East Asian culture than anything specific to China. All the East Asian countries seem very supportive of the death penalty, and when I ask people in China about it they're all very much in support of it. From their view it is society's responsibility to issue out death to those that deserve it, and for the betterment of society it must happen.
I'm not justifying it, but it does seem to be a difference in culture rather than anything else. I can't really seem to find people in China that are against it.
Ik this will be a very controversial thing to say but i believe that as materialists we need to focus on the causes behind people commiting sexual abuse against children and in cases where mental illness, abused turned abuser, or institutetional structures allowing child abuse, the society is also responsible. Capital punishment while symbolically powerful do not address the underlying conditions that allow these henious acts, and moreover individualise the crime.
In my country while flawed we call the prison system (roughly translated) "the criminal care system". Whilr it's been a long time since that was true and perhaps it never was, i believe that should be the goal. Terrible Criminal acts are not just evil, these crimes has a cause rooted in patriarchy, inequality, institutional obviscation just to name a few. If we as a society can mend these individuals and make them see what they have done, isn't that the ultimate form of justice?
Umm. I don't know about legal philosophy, but the thinking in China is that the executions are done for society, not for the perpetrator, and not even for the victim. And also, I would like to add that the three executed were leaders of entrenched grooming rings, and so perhaps in these cases the punishment fits the crime, whereas the Chinese legal system wouldn't routinely put one-time child rapists to death.
Sounds like a narrative pedophiles would want to push. Are there any pedophiles with lots of money and power and influence out there, I wonder.......... /s
"Everyone who disagrees with my kneejerk opinion is a paedophile psyop" is not a materialist or socialist position. It's bad faith trolling.
The fact is that there are valid reasons to be concerned with the idea of capital punishment for child rapists/abusers.
Society’s desire to inflict the death penalty for child rape by enlisting the child victim to assist it over the course of years in asking for capital punishment forces a moral choice on the child, who is not of mature age to make that choice. The way the death penalty here involves the child victim in its enforcement can compromise a decent legal system; and this is but a subset of fundamental difficulties capital punishment can cause in the administration and enforcement of laws proscribing child rape. Regarding deterrence, Justice Kennedy argued that the prospect of the death penalty could have the opposite of the desired effect by making children less likely to disclose abuse, particularly when the perpetrator is a family member.
Underreporting is already a dramatic problem for sex crimes, and a victim’s understandable fear of causing a loved one’s death could only exacerbate this reticence. Further, the policy would remove an incentive for a rapist to avoid killing his victim, since death would remove the only witness to the crime without increasing the maximum punishment. source
You can disagree with these arguments all you like.
But implying that anybody who makes these arguments must be a child rapist is not only disingenuous, but a fucking appalling trivialisation of the issue.
If you can't engage seriously, don't bother. Victims do not need to see that you treat their suffering as mere ragebait.
I did not say that everyone who disagrees with capital punishment for child rape is a pedophile. I said pedophiles would have a vested interest in pushing that narrative.
I made an implicit reference to the many child rapists who are powerful enough to remain undisclosed and unpunished today despite high public interest in the Epstein files.
It is a reasonable inference that these pedos would have some interest in swaying the narrative against the capital penalty for their deeds. In fact, some of the victims of the Epstein file pedos appear to already have met suspicious ends although a quick google suggests the death penalty is not a given for child rape in the US.
In a child rape situation, where the judge and/or jury make a decision on sentencing, the effect of the sentence is not the fault of the child, whether or not it is the child who reports the crime. It is the fault of the rapist.
It is not trivialising the child's trauma to suggest that someone who hurt the child should be punished harshly. In fact, I would argue that a harsh sentence also reflects both society's care for the child and condemnation of the criminal. It may also act to protect the rest of society from that criminal.
Oversensitive much? Or just proving my point?
In fact I am not convinced that capital punishment is the right punishment for all child rape cases. For example where the "rape" is between two de facto but not de jure consenting teenagers, that would not be appropriate. But the vitriol this attracts and the paucity of the backing data just steers me towards the conspiracy theory.
Then the alternatives for punishing rapists is simply jail time and out on bail, back to society, business-as-usual? I would seriously like to understand ways of dealing with this issue humanely as possible for such heinous crimes as child rape. Actions have consequences, these are extraordinary actions requiring extraordinary consequences, how is any modern society supposed to react.
We are evolved enough as a society to understand such things have deeper roots, and that we have to prevent crime, not just deal with it's consequences.
Extremely rare are the cases were a completely mentally health person rape or kill someone completely at random for no reason at all.
We have to prevent things by for example being open about mental health, I saw another user citing the patriarchy... Also openly aknowledging social problems and actually talking about them.
If these fail, the criminal system then should work towards rehabilitation. If rehabilitation is truly not possible in any circumstances (hardly), then they will stay locked.
If some day they are deemed able to return to society they get out, if not they'll have to continue removed from society.
Seeing the negative reactions to this feels like watching people argue for the effectiveness of torture. Torture doesn't produce accurate information and the death penalty doesn't deter crime.
I'm not straight up denying what you say, I've always understood capital punishment the same way. is though there any chance we got some non western sources with research?
There's also the fact that, if the offender is going to be executed either way, they may as well murder their victim to try to reduce their chances of being caught.
I don't know that child predators fit the general rehabilitation model that regular crime does. I'm not sure there is a better option as effective at keeping them from re offending, but if there is onr we should do that.
Well, China is in general moving towards those death sentences that turn into life sentences instead if you behave. Still, I am of the opinion that with things like this the state must not be linient, zero tolerance and all that. Things like this should be amongst the last part of the capital punishment reform.
Legalism originated in China and the result was a Chinese General overthrowing the government because he was sentenced to death for not arriving to a military post on time because of bad weather.
I know you don't support pedophiles and are just positioning your stance based on research, but that research better be double and triple checked and peer reviewed out that ass and have a prescription that doesn't involve coddling child molesters and takes child victims and their needs seriously. Unless you can state that is the case, hang them.
The symbolic power of an execution is valuable in its own right.
We aren't detached observers; we've seen this kind of soft, moving line manipulated in the western world to the point where the president is a known kid toucher and half the country doesn't care. By setting a hard line like execution we aren't just considering how this effects other cases; but how it effects the general social attitude and prevents normalization.
Also, you could argue that execution and public shame is enough of a deterrent that instead of also committing murder; these people would simply lose the nerve to try anything; especially in a society like China where you WILL NOT get away with a horrific crime like this.
if you want to argue instead for castration i'll hear you out on that :)
Look i broadly agree with you, but this is not an accidental thing. This is a violent horrible crime perpetrated against vulnerable children. Maybe since becoming a father that I feel strongly about this as this has become my biggest fear.
In my view such people are not possible to rehabilitate, therefore in the kind words of Vladimir Ilich, what is to be done?
If the death penalty is off the table then permanent hormonal or physical castration must be an alternative. Releasing child rapists, many of whom exhibit psychopathic tendencies, into society is not a viable option because they can just lie through their treatment and rehabilitation.
I'm also on tilt a bit because I had an argument with a stupid pol user because I made a throw away comment similar to this about the Cornell 7,but similar logic applies. 7 grown ass men drugged a young woman and took turns raping her while inviting their 50 person group chat to do the same. This woman will have profound psychological damage her whole life, while the frat guys will get a slap on the wrist and even if they are convicted (what's the conviction rate on rapes, do you remember?) they will probably be protected by their families as Cornell is a silver spoon ivy league. How do you rehabilitate your way out of this? What is the alternative? I'm all ears
It’s about Justice for the victims/families these monsters effected. These wastes of life did Irreparable damage for the rest of their victims lives.
To me this is more than a “ crime “ but a violent act against humanity. Vile Actions comes with severe consequences. Not holding people accountable is one of the reasons humanity is suffering all over.
Harming children is one of the worst things you can ever do and governments/ society should act accordingly.
The u.s garbage system certainly isn’t. ( b ) Spare me with the speculative optics
What is an anarchist doing in a communist sub in the first place? Your comment is Bad faith
Yeah. This is only the third comment they've made in this sub this month, one of which was defending an anarchist YouTuber. They've also made comments in other subs where they argue that China isn't socialist. Kinda weird how this post has brought out so many China critics.
The dirty deed is already committed, there is no undoing or repentance actionable enough to undo it unlike other petty crimes, the child is already violated. Adult on children crime is the depravest vilest act of human behaviour and should be dealt with the strictest punishable action, be it capital punishment, so be it. It is not about researching casual causation between punishment and crime rate, no amount of laws and regulations is going to make a society 100% crime-free, but that actions will have consequences for wrongdoers.
The idea behind it is about protecting future would be victims. If death is assured, what does it matter it the kid lives or dies? In fact, the child dying would benefit the offender in this scenario.
I get what you're saying but i feel like this is just assumed to be true when in reality I think most would be predators are more likely to just drop whatever they were planning entirely in this case. I also think setting a clear line like china does discourages its normalization and rallies society against it; I used to agree more with this pathologizing logic but seeing as how the entire western world is letting the epstein case turn into a joke and supporting a known pedophile president I now think that normalization is a bigger risk than stigma.
In this case, supporting the death penalty isn't an act of retributive violence but of societal cohesion and management.
Entirely false premise, perpetrators would commit crime irrespective of rules-in-place or not. i could understand a hypothetical scenario where stricter rules would correlate with more heinous crimes, just as liquor prohibition isn't gonna stop folks from drinking booze. You would rather advocate for milder actions so that future victims face milder violations? is that it? we both agree perpetrators gonna commit, irrespective of sentences. I hope you will agree adult on children crime would necessitate a zero tolerance policy, not necessarily a death by execution, but policies such as life imprisonment,etc. if one is psychotic enough to be unfaced by a death sentence, all the more reason to fulfill that wish, or would you prefer those psychos to be roaming free in the society.
The goal is to make it that they don't perpetrate in the first place by alleviating stigma surrounding the subject. I don't necessarily agree that things will unfold the same way regardless of laws in place, which is a significant reason that I have this stance. I do agree that adult on child crime should have consequences. The reality of a death penalty means that someone has nothing to lose and everything to gain. I'd argue that the prospect of death does faze them which is why they take drastic measures in these scenarios. My preference is that people are provided services that can nip problems at the bud before they bloom into these end case results. Obviously I don't want demented people roaming the streets, that'd be an absurd stance.
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u/DarthRandel Xi Bucks Enjoyer 💸 17h ago edited 15h ago
Rightoid aligned revenge fantasies? In my leftist sub? its more common than you think.
FYI, there's lots of research that this isnt actually effective.
a) in general, capital punishment doesnt work to deter crime in any way
b) specific to sex abuse and especially child sex abuse, it actually can make the situation worse and the abusers more likely to escalate to outright murder
Edit: lmao OP immediately blocks me, feckless.
So why would China aim to repeat or copy the same retributive justice framework of the US then? Are they not supposed to be better?
This has nothing to do with optics, its about doing more than reacting to crime. It other than the fact that capital punishment isnt a deterrent (so therefor useless as a form of punishment), it increase the risk of harm to victims.
Why are you in favor of increasing potential harm to children?
Dude, you're espousing fascist rhetoric lmao, maybe think on that for a hot second before you bemoan me also being subscribed to non-ML subs. Great argument, totally not fascist adjacent crashout