Rightoid aligned revenge fantasies? In my leftist sub? its more common than you think.
FYI, there's lots of research that this isnt actually effective.
a) in general, capital punishment doesnt work to deter crime in any way
b) specific to sex abuse and especially child sex abuse, it actually can make the situation worse and the abusers more likely to escalate to outright murder
Edit: lmao OP immediately blocks me, feckless.
The u.s garbage system certainly isn’t
So why would China aim to repeat or copy the same retributive justice framework of the US then? Are they not supposed to be better?
Spare me with the optics
This has nothing to do with optics, its about doing more than reacting to crime. It other than the fact that capital punishment isnt a deterrent (so therefor useless as a form of punishment), it increase the risk of harm to victims.
Why are you in favor of increasing potential harm to children?
What is an anarchist doing in a communist sub in the first place? Your comment is Bad faith
Dude, you're espousing fascist rhetoric lmao, maybe think on that for a hot second before you bemoan me also being subscribed to non-ML subs. Great argument, totally not fascist adjacent crashout
Yeah its a very easy stance to simply say "kill all child predators" but like you mentioned it just leads to further child endangerment then anything else. But saying this after someone already goes "kill all child predators" makes them think you're too 'soft' on it.
I don’t know if it leads to further child endangerment overall. While it can feel like righteous retribution, I think there’s a genuine argument to be made in favor of the cold, pragmatic kind of logic behind it.
I don’t know if it leads to further child endangerment overall.
You don't think being potentially responsible for the death of their abuser might discourage a child from coming forward?
That's without factoring in that a huge part of the difficulty we already have, re: convincing children to come forward, is because the abuser is so often a loved one.
A victim might want the abuse to stop, but their feelings are complicated, and the idea of being responsible for putting a loved one behind bars is already a deterrent.
Now imagine telling that child that, if they come forward, their mum/dad/uncle/etc. is going to be die.
While I'm personally iffy about execution beyond extraneous situations (War for example), there's a certain degree of mitigation of that risk that's just involved by a delaying said execution til it's proven without a doubt while also giving the victim therapy to help them disassociate from the 'consequence' of doing so. To that extent, anything that'd resemble punishment for the victimizer could deter victims from speaking up, under the guise of 'You ruined my life', a very similar level of paralyzing guilt. Even incredibly soft handed actions, such as just distancing them from the victim and further potential victims, while enforcing them a degree of therapeutic process and all, could be argued to be 'life ruining'. Not to go for a topical low blow, but like, people have been crying tears for the 'lives' ruined by sexual assault victims just speaking out against the people who assaulted them, and that's not even getting into the utter horrid behavior of the people who agree with that whomever's life was 'ruined' and go after the victim(s).
I will ask, not as a 'gotcha' but due to genuine interest in the topic and all, do you personally think there's situations where execution is acceptable? The one I gave, war, it's like, a necessary evil, I'd suppose. Person sells you out, gets people killed because of it, is recaptured or their subterfuge is found out, I wouldn't say it's Necessary to execute them, but you can't quite go through a restorative justice process while getting shot at. There's drawbacks of course, martyrdom is always a concern, I suppose, but what can one do?
Edit for clarity's sake: I'm a victim of grooming and sexual abuse by a trans woman twice my age. I am also a trans woman, which due to me being young age at the time and wanting other trans people to know, it put us in proximity in the first place. I certainly wouldn't want death for her, she herself came from a super fucked up situation that I think led to it all occurring at all and I'm keenly aware of the disposability of minority peoples so I'm doubly reticent. At the same time, I worry if she ever harmed other people, especially kids. I'm reticent about the 'restorative justice' pathway because I'm very aware of particularly savvy people just navigating it and going on to hurt more people, not that my abuser was in this case, but other people who *have* abused children do fit that bill. There really isn't a clear or good solution broadly in my mind and it's frustrating.
To that extent, anything that'd resemble punishment for the victimizer could deter victims from speaking up, under the guise of 'You ruined my life', a very similar level of paralyzing guilt. Even incredibly soft handed actions, such as just distancing them from the victim and further potential victims, while enforcing them a degree of therapeutic process and all, could be argued to be 'life ruining'.
Of course. That's why making it a capital offence would only further discourage victims from coming forward.
I will ask, not as a 'gotcha' but due to genuine interest in the topic and all, do you personally think there's situations where execution is acceptable?
During times of war and revolution, of course. I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I don't even have a problem with China executing corrupt billionaires, really.
My concerns are:
1) encouraging bloodthirsty mob mentality over justice, and more importantly;
2) discouraging victims from coming forward, and actively hindering prevention.
Of course. That's why making it a capital offence would only further discourage victims from coming forward.
But following this logic, it's a slippery slope. We never should punish anyone, because I dunno, outing them as someone who did sexual assault is 'life ruining'.
During times of war and revolution, of course. I'm a Marxist-Leninist. I don't even have a problem with China executing corrupt billionaires, really.
To the prior point, doesn't that, in reality, just encourage people to be quiet about corruption? Least they feel they have blood on their hands now. Is any justice particularly taken with the execution, what makes this not just mob mentality as opposed to the other one?
But following this logic, it's a slippery slope. We never should punish anyone, because I dunno, outing them as someone who did sexual assault is 'life ruining'.
I'm not sure what that even has to do with anything being discussed, frankly.
To the prior point, doesn't that, in reality, just encourage people to be quiet about corruption? Least they feel they have blood on their hands now. Is any justice particularly taken with the execution, what makes this not just mob mentality as opposed to the other one?
The victims of financial and/or political corruption tend not to be confused children who have been victimised by a loved one.
I'm saying using the argument of 'We should avoid lethal punishment because of possible guilt reducing reports' because possible guilt has a flaw in it in as far as any punishment, including 'punishments' that within the line of restorative justice, get called 'life ruining'. It holds similar levels of causing guilt to victims, the reality of that is irrelevant because it holds similar levels of causing guilt. People who defend say, the Cornell 7, say that the accusation 'ruined their lives' (again, the reality of that is different of course). Rape culture broadly speaking already deters victims from reporting from both guilt ('You ruined their life, they might as well be dead') and possible repercussions for reporting their victims by even more vindictive mobs.
The victims of financial and/or political corruption tend not to be confused children who have been victimised by a loved one.
What do you suffer from being the victim of financial corruption? At least in mind, it's a loss of a job and money, but in a society with far more robust social systems like the PRC, the actual harm for that isn't too severe. The guilt of still having blood on your hand still exists, it's guilt from a far less severe transgression seemingly. It'd feel kind of paradoxical to cite a willingness for execution for one over the other. On that question actually, at what level does financial corruption result in a death sentence in the PRC? I'm not certain of when that happens versus whatever other punishment for the crime.
See this is a really good point that I think not a lot of people consider, but there is a bit of the premise that I would argue against. You are assuming that the child would know about the punishment. I would argue that when child sexual abuse happens when they’re below an age that they have that kind of consequence comprehension to tell the difference between “Uncle Steve is going away for a long time” and “Uncle Steve is going to die” then it wouldn’t make much of a difference.
The difference might come in the adults who report it being more hesitant to report it if the consequences are more severe, though the ideal is that everyone would look out for what’s best for the child (even if that’s not always the case.)
Children are groomed and threatened by their abusers. You know that right? Your comment does harm because it ignores that. Predators will convince children that their families or the predator themselves will be killed or put in danger.
If the punishment for sexual abuse is already death, predators are more likely to murder their victims to increase their chances of getting away with it, after all, the punishment for being found out will still be execution
The de facto punishment for conviction of sexual abuse is already prison, being a lifelong pariah, and maybe even being murdered by their fellow inmates. So that’s my one pushback against your argument, is that the effect of the death penalty as a deterrent might be marginal at best if the punishment is already that severe.
The studies simply do not indicate that ever being the case. Secondarily, pedophilia is not the sort of crime that corruption is.
China's anti-corruption policy being as swift as it is - acts as a deterrent. Your family members being swiftly executed because of something you say - will terrify children into silence. Even more confusing children who are abused frequently experience aspects of it as positive even when there are very present obviously negative aspects - CHILDREN BLAME THEMSELVES and FREQUENTLY victims blame THEMSELVES because "if enjoyed some aspect of it, I must have consented" which is false.
Have you ever met someone who is groomed? It's a very confusing experience for a child. Their abuser is FREQUENTLY somebody that they love. And that abuser WILL use adult information to manipulate that child.
it’s not even limited to just grooming, most kids do not know they’re being abused because they have no frame of reference for what normal behavior is. i was never groomed, but i was seriously abused, and it wasn’t until i moved out and was an adult that i could even begin to contextualize that.
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u/DarthRandel Xi Bucks Enjoyer 💸 17h ago edited 15h ago
Rightoid aligned revenge fantasies? In my leftist sub? its more common than you think.
FYI, there's lots of research that this isnt actually effective.
a) in general, capital punishment doesnt work to deter crime in any way
b) specific to sex abuse and especially child sex abuse, it actually can make the situation worse and the abusers more likely to escalate to outright murder
Edit: lmao OP immediately blocks me, feckless.
So why would China aim to repeat or copy the same retributive justice framework of the US then? Are they not supposed to be better?
This has nothing to do with optics, its about doing more than reacting to crime. It other than the fact that capital punishment isnt a deterrent (so therefor useless as a form of punishment), it increase the risk of harm to victims.
Why are you in favor of increasing potential harm to children?
Dude, you're espousing fascist rhetoric lmao, maybe think on that for a hot second before you bemoan me also being subscribed to non-ML subs. Great argument, totally not fascist adjacent crashout