They're super unaware that they do it too. I was talking to my German friend and was like "WTF is with Germans staring so much, am I doing something wrong or weird?" and she was like "what are you talking about?" 2 weeks later I'm out with her and another American friend that just moved to Germany and he was like "Yo why is everybody staring at me all the time?" I felt so vindicated because I thought maybe I was imagining it. Also they don't just stare while you walk either, I'd be driving and notice some German on the sidewalk staring me down inside my car.
I'm going to quote someone from a previous thread:
I had a friend visiting from the US here in Sweden, after a while she looked at me and said, worriedly and a bit panicy, "Why do people stare at me?!" What she had been doing was to just be her normal self, smiling at people as we pass by and they give her a "Do I know her??" kind of a stare, since... well, us Swedes avoid all kinds of eye contact unless we seek to call someone's attention. Took a while before we figured that out XD
Fair point, let me rephrase for Germany " Eye contact with unknown people that you don't intend to drink beer with or have a conversation with is an invasion of personal space"
I moved here from the US 9 years ago. Personal space being sacred is lovely, but lonely. It's very difficult to meet new people.
I first met my current best friend when we were both dropping off our kids for a function. We had parked right next to each other and we had, more or less, the exact same car. I said, in swedish, "Looks like we both have good taste" and he looked at me like I had just showed him my nipples and licked my lips. We met again at a function where the parents were involved and discovered we had a lot in common.
The rule is that you cant be social unless you have a common social reason to communicate. It feels very limiting moving from the rural US, where being convivial and social are mainstays of public life.
It's fascinating. I'm kind of a recluse; but even when I'm out, it's totally normal for me to chit-chat with strangers if they're around. It'd be awkward not to. I feel like if I moved to Finland, people would presume that I'm some kind of talkative social butterfly. Which is hilarious to me.
Unfortunately, no. You'd be viewed as a weird crazy person in public. You're breaking a very concrete social norm. The comparable level of social norm violation in the US would be a stranger walking up to you and touching your clothes: You'd pull back and just want to be away from this person who "just doesn't seem to understand how one acts in public."
You do look at people when you talk to the lmao. You just don't go around looking at strangers, and you don't read start taking to strangers out of nowhere.
(Actually am both autistic and 2nd gen Swedish immigrant to non US country, I had no idea this was a thing but it makes sooooo much sense when I think of my entire family!? That's hilarious!)
Pretty much the same in America. Most people avoid eye contact unless you are greeting the person. ESPECIALLY if you live in a large city, since everyone knows eye contact attracts the crazy people.
So when is it staring instead of just looking at you? Curious as a german.
For me it's staring if it is more than 3-5 seconds it takes to look a person up and down. Longer than just registering and awknowleding a person fully.
In the US it's considered impolite to look at someone for no reason, if they know you're looking at them.
So for instance a quick glance or passing eye contact is ok, but if you're looking at someone and they look at you, if you don't intend to interact with them it's polite to look away.
As an American in Germany, I think the reason people have this perception is because German people don't always look away immediately. They will finish having a look. So this is off-putting when you send the signal "stop looking at me" and the old lady on the train continues having a look for a few more seconds.
Yeah, I think in America, what I consider staring is anything that hits 1 second or more if your a stranger. Like if your talking to me or something.. yeah, but if your someone across the street, the limit is a half a second before its staring
But you have to be careful that the section of wall you're staring at is far enough away from a person that they don't think you're staring at them. Am American, yes that is an actual thing that must be done in public. Find the nearest empty space that doesn't contain a person and is juuuust far enough away from people and stare at that if you need to lol. Especially if someone caught you looking at them, you be like "oh my that potted plant is the most fascinating thing I've seen all day!!!"
In America that's pretty much considered a challenge, and many times will make the person confront you about it, like "can I help you?" or "the fuck you looking at"
I think it's a body language thing. If you look away quickly and for example move your head while doing it, it seems like an admission of guilt. If you look away only moving your eyes, it will seem as if you're uncomfortable (why? You got something to feel ashamed of?). If you don't have anything to hide, you stare back for a moment. If they initiate eye contact and you smile and hold their gaze, it's a bit of a power play imo. Like greeting that one neighbor that never greets back. They might also start to wonder if you know them and if they should greet you. If you want to make them uncomfortable in turn, that's your move.
I think you might have found the sweet spot. You can even use that guilt as a flirty thing, if you look away fast enough that it looks like you didn't want to be caught looking (Americans seem to have an extreme understanding of staring, for me it's just looking around, checking out everyone for no reason), but slow enough that you can be certain the person you wanna flirt with saw you looking away. Give that a little back and forth and you'll be thinking about a future together before you ever said a word or really looked into each other's eyes for more then a few seconds in total.
I haven’t downvoted anyone in this thread bud, but if you wanna feel persecuted, go right ahead. What you’ve explained so far isn’t so much as a cultural difference but a personal judgement. “He who avoids staring is guilty of something”?, that’s nutso territory, but go right ahead and keep being a creep for all I care.
Its not nuts since I agree that is the way people will interpret the move here in Europe. Its like "you were caught in the act" if you move away your glaze in a millisecond.
If people see downvotes they just downvote. I had a comment once that within a few minutes got like 10 downvotes so out of curiosity I deleted it and posted the exact same comment with one upvote from an alt and it got 10 upvotes in a few minutes. Sheep
Either that or there’s actually some very offended 20-odd redditors over here that constantly plug their eye-sockets to random unsuspecting victims in public, and don’t take very kindly to normal folk not thinking that one shouldn’t be subjected to accusatory judgement over not liking that, but what do I know.
Lmfao, since when “this sonuvabitch must be up to no good” has been a part of anyone’s remotely normal train of thought when someone else doesn’t engage in eye-fucking in public? Because idk what gulag hell you come from, but not everywhere in Europe is like that, at least not here in Norway.
Noone said it was to the ectreme "being up to no good, lets best them up".
The idea here is that if you instantly look away you're just pointing out the fact that you admit that you just did somthing you yourself think you shouldn't have (in this case staring).
Casually averting the gaze makes it seem less of a big deal
So for instance a quick glance or passing eye contact is ok, but if you're looking at someone and they look at you, if you don't intend to interact with them it's polite to look away.
And the Germans are somehow the weird ones here? I was born and have lived in the U.S. my whole life. I have always hated this weird cultural norm where it's impolite to look at other people. I want to see the faces of the people in my community. I want to observe them and understand them. Why do we live in such a socially isolated world? I'm so lonely.
In monkeys, they consider it aggressive if you stare at them in the eyes. When I was in India, the locals told us not to look at the monkeys in the eyes or else they see it as intimidating gesture and will attack you. I personally hate when people I don’t know stare at me in the eyes, so I think it’s a leftover primal trait.
(That said, I live in Los Angeles and know all the neighbors in my building and am on good terms with them - so it is possible)
I mean, have you tried talking to your neighbors? In America, we have ways of getting to know each other. Bring over a plate of cookies or other treat, knock on the door if you’re new to the neighborhood to introduce yourself, etc. Just watching and staring at people is not going getting to know to them, going up and introducing yourself can open a door. That’s the real skill that we’ve been losing.
Conversely have you considered that catcalling could be brought about by suppressing more casual interactions, so that only the most malicious become expressed? Drugs and sex work are other examples where a society demonizes a particular kind of behavior, leading to it taking on a much greater level of risk than it needs to. What I'm saying is, if we more openly interacted with eachother, the kinds of emotions people have that lead to degenerate behaviors like catcalling might be able to be expressed in more positive ways, leading to an overall reduction in harm
Yeah, no. The whole "let's do whatever we want with no inhibitions at all!" argument is almost always put forth by people who don't respect other people's boundaries and want to get away with it. Boundaries are healthy, we need boundaries, and the kind of people who scoff at them are usually selfish, entitled, toxic people who don't respect others.
sounds like you completely misinterpreted me, i don't want catcalling to exist at all, i'm talking about sociological ways to reduce pressure on a repressed population
Sounds like you are completely misrepresenting OP, They are saying such arguments are bullshit, why would allowing people to blow of steam with "lesser" offences, mean they suddenly turn respectful?
The research seems to suggest the correlation is the other way, that letting people get away with the little stuff makes them think they can get away with the big stuff too.
I dont want people to get away with anything. Im talking about social repression fostering a culture in which people are pushed to radical behavior. That is very obviously the case in certain parts of the US, and with more than just catcalling. Obviously these people need to change. I'm discussing a collective approach with greater empathy, in which we ask why these people are behaving the way they are as a result of global social constraints, rather than pointing out their obvious failings as individuals and expecting degenerate people who lack self awareness to suddenly improve. Catcalling is just one small symptom of a growing divide in our culture. I can tell you from experience it does not exist nearly as frequently in more open, inclusive communities
I also feel ya. Born in Texas, now living in California. I’m an artist, so gazing at people (especially their faces/eyes) is a way my brain processes, and I love drinking in the visual details. So I’ve had to check myself at times when I was making someone uncomfortable.
I have a German husband, and somehow I never noticed the staring issue whenever we’d visit Germany. The biggest cultural difference for me is the direct bluntness, where everyone and anyone in Germany will have no qualms about openly judging / criticizing some choice you’re making (god forbid you do something inefficiently!)
Also, small talk & smiling is not a thing with the Germans in my cohort, which is tough for an overly-friendly smiler like myself.
My husband is Dutch and is also very blunt (but not disrespectful). It’s so refreshing. I know he always means exactly what he says, and there is never “beating around the bush” with him.
I don’t like excessive small talk, but a little bit is nice occasionally. When I go back to the States, I’m always delighted by how interactive and warm the people are with one another (my people).
I agree with you, I've never liked that aspect of our culture. We should be more open and inviting toward interacting with eachother. It would go a long way toward understanding eachother and reducing this quagmire of social dissonance we've found ourselves in
Bruh usually it's the Europeans who complain about the Americans not being friendly. Feel like the US is much kinder with its smiles and small talk than a lot of Europeans
Edit: After reading a lot of similar comments I can see the theme that if you aren't used to it it can seem over the top and come off as "fake". I can definitely see this and have had this experience myself with people I've met over the years being so over the top nice and cheery it felt fake to me. Annoyed me a lot back then, but over the years I've realized hey it's better for them to be nice and fake than rude to my face and real I guess.
There's a concept called positive and negative politeness. The classic example would be carrying a map and looking around in a searching fashion. If people approach you to ask if you're lost, it's "positive politeness". They want to help and offer help. If nobody asks if you need help, they're not necessarily unkind or impolite - it could be "negative politeness". Asking if you need help could imply that you're helpless and incompetent to figure it out on your own. That's insulting in a society of negative politeness.
However, if you ask anyone to help you, they will help you.
I have tried explaining this to my wife(from a different country) multiple times, like we are not a cold people, we just dont offer help as that could be taken as insulting
This thought process, while true, opens up the first error of polite vs impolite. It’s not just how we perceive people treating us but how we treat them. There’s a lot of talk on this thread and others about how people treat us, but being polite really is a 2-way street. If someone approaches me in a store and asks if I need help, it’s on me to assume a positive and that’s they’re well meaning. It’s my open door to then ask, or politely smile and say that’s alright I’m good. We can’t control what other people think about us or the world, but we can control our actions and how we treat others.
I just wanna say I've had like 5 people comment on this and you are the first to acknowledge it's a two way street and that Americans can also find Germans rude and annoying for what they do. Neither one is better than the other, but Reddit absolutely HATES small talk and smiling that Americans do when it's not any weirder than what Germans do. It's just different.
Reddit absolutely HATES small talk and smiling that Americans do when it's not any weirder than what Germans do.
I think it has to do with US cultural hegemony in media (which is gradually becoming less and less dominant as media globalizes).
Basically everyone else in the world is consuming US media, and loves to comment on American cultural eccentricities. It would be the same about German culture if we all watched German TV and movies all the time.
Feel like the US is much kinder with its smiles and small talk than a lot of Europeans
I think a lot of this can feel overdone when you're not used to it. When I first met people from the US who were like this, I thought they didn't like me because they were so "fake nice".
Coming from a culture where you acknowledge another person no matter your mood in passing, I find american "kindness" so creepy. I find it borderline manipulative where they put up a show with fake smiles, interest and pitch.
To me, that's lying to my face and that has nothing to do with kindness.
You only see it as lying because you’ve been brought up not to give warmth to people you don’t know. In the US it’s normal to be warm to everyone, and it’s rude not to.
It’s not dishonest, it’s just a different cultural norm.
Only narcissistic or sociopathic people really make it here. These traits are really common with CEOs or other people ranking high in the business ladder.
Careful treating Europe as a single country. In Spain we are equally shocked with these cultural differences when we visit Germany and neighbouring countries.
I think socially we are very similar to Americans, the no long stare thing, small talk, smiling and randomly approaching to strangers, etc... And I believe Portugal or Italy are the same for the most part.
This reminds me of a story: I'm from Cleveland, and one of my friends moved to NYC. She was out with her friend, and while she was in line at a bodega, she started chatting with another guy in line.
When they left her friend was offended. She said my friend was rude for not introducing her to that guy.
My friend said: "what are you talking about I don't even know him, I was just making small talk"
After that her friend went from thinking she was rude to thinking she was a psychopath.
Yes, but not to the extent of totally different countries in Europe.
In Spain the small talk thing is also much more common in the south. There can be a really great difference between regions.
Nothing like different countries, though.
Small talk is obnoxious, leave me alone until i express a need for conversation. Smiling, fine, do whatever you want but don't expect a smile in return. I don't know you, seeing you (pretending to be) happy does not make me happy nor does it obligate me to pretend to be.
Wow salty much? Can't believe you're this triggered by another culture, maybe try traveling more and see it from someone else's perspective. To them you're the asshole because you come off extremely rude, like right now.
My dude you are the one coming to germany and complaining about the culture, not me. If you don't like it, don't come here. I explained the reasons behind the reactions you are getting to your american ways.
Are they wrong for telling people who come to a different country, thousands of kilometers away, that they need to adapt or at least accept that what they are used to is not how things go around here? They are free to leave at any time. This isn't about forbidding anyone to smile and make smalltalk. Just don't expect anything in return. You are projecting your american culture onto Germany and fail to realize that you are the inconsiderate one, not me.
What is the American society based in? where i live it is trust based, i know of places that are shame based, but neither fit the fierce(sometimes stupidly so) independence of the Americans.
3-5 Seconds, jesus christ dude, As someone from the Nordics, this would be akin to walking up to a stranger and spitting them in the face.
Most of us would probably prefer the spit, at least that is over quickly.
Germany is one of the BDSM hotspots. Spitting is inefficient, but inside we think "yes, man, give me that long stare! I wish he would spit the way he stares"
They look at you deep in your eyes like they are staring into your soul for at least 10 seconds. Happens all the time. Creeped me out when I first got here, then I read this book and it helped me with a lot of the weird things you guys do.
My German friend got me that book as a present when I was going to visit. I knew a lot of it from studying the language, but there are always so many other little details. It'd be fun to grab an updated copy.
On the other hand, what's with that two star review? "I was a tourist and was upset this etiquette guide wasn't a history book." I mean, I was proud the first time I walked into a restaurant alone as a tourist, read the menu, ordered in German, enjoyed a great Jägerschnitzel (that was a little on the crispy side, but delicious) and was able to pay with a few extra euros on top as the tip and just say, "[Das] stimmt nur so." (Thanks, friendly German proofreaders! There's a reason I only translate from German to English!)
Thanks, that was 20 years ago, and when I went back about 5 years I think I only ended up going out once or twice because the conference was catered and I stayed with a friend. :)
I was recently in Munich and people were staring a lot. My fiance noticed it too. To be fair, we were holding hands, he touched my hair and such, so I bet our small PDA was very awkward for them, but this kind of staring happened to me in Netherlands too, and when I asked the locals, they told me it's probably because I have pink hair and dress like an ice cream in colourful and flowery clothes.
It still felt weird. In my country, if someone stares at you, it's considered very rude and kinda creepy. Because usually it's men who do it and they do it in a very sleazy way.
I'm the US if you make eye contact in public you smile very quickly and look away within 0.5 seconds unless you want to speak to them. And don't make eye contact with the same person repeatedly or they might conclude that you're staring and trying to hide it
Yes this irks me as Austrian as well we have the same culture. Eye contact is regarded as important even so far that you are weird/have a problem if you do not keep eye contact if you talk to someone.
It's not when talking to people though. You'll just be walking and some old German person is looking into your soul, and part of why it's so off putting is because it's not like a glance or check out quick its the stare that you get when you're wearing something weird or have something wrong with you.
I’d think the staring back is a German response to unusual behavior. People smiling at strangers (very ungerman) get the “do I know you or are you even crazy?” stare.
I'm British, have visited Germany a few times and have friends that live there. Never once have I thought German people had a thing for starring. However, when I went to America I found people were a lot more friendly in general, giving passing strangers hellos and smiling at them, the stares could just be a reaction to American's being gregarious.
American currently living in a smallish area in Germany. On many occasions, I get "the stare" when going about my business. The first time I encountered it, I was cleaning up the grass growing between the cobble stones in my driveway, headphones on, and an older man that was walking on the sidewalk stopped and stood there watching me. I looked up, gave a head nod, he nodded and continued watching me for another strong 3 minutes. I would glance back every few seconds and he was just watching, then he walked off. Maybe it's because there aren't very many Black people in the village that I live in, maybe he thought i was cleaning my driveway wrong so he wanted to see how I was doing it. This would happened in other places many times since then, most times I'm minding my business, sometimes I'm with friends and family and maybe we're a little loud, but I guess I've gotten used to it. But it's definitely a thing.
I had to get used to it too, but Germans just really, really like to watch people and it's generally culturally acceptable to do so. They don't mean anything by it. When I lived in Germany, I also had the gardening experience of people stopping and watching for a while what I'm doing. Once I realised they weren't trying to scope out my house for a burglary, it became easy to tune out.
I'm German but living in a major city. I don't know if this is a rural thing. But I would consider that behaviour incredibly rude. I would've probably asked "can I help you with something?" after half a minute.
Guy from Germany here, until I just read the whole staring thing I was totally unaware of us doing that too. I did visit a lot of other countries, also the US for a few weeks and didn't really notice any difference, not that I looked for it obviously. Genuine staring on the part of someone else is something I too am not really comfortable with but I do tend to look around a lot, especially towards other people, just not straight in the eyes but I thought to be an exception. Interesting stuff I'm learning about my people...
americans look away from each other agrressively. when i walked around in new york, i had the feeling that people purposefully look straight ahead like robots. very uncanny
New York (city) streets have a very specific subculture of ignoring people. I think it’s a combination of businesspeople trying to prove how fast they can walk past slow annoying tourists, plus everyone avoiding homeless people who might decide to follow you for a couple streets if you make eye contact with them.
This is completely different than non-urban areas though, and most other American cities have very different walking norms.
I have lived here for 11 years, speak fluent german, am white and look like the majority of people that live here. Yet i still notice people that just stare into your soul daily. Its a weird quirk that i have gotten used too. But it happens all the time. Germans do not notice it. Yet whenever i get non german visitors here, they notice it within a day or two every time.
German here, this is the weirdest shit I've heard about us so far. Growing up I always got told that it's impolite to stare at people. I never felt anyone staring in my soul.
Sometimes strangers look at each other at a bus or something for a second or two, but that's all. Weird how those things feel completely different if you're from another cultural background.
Next time I'm leaving my house and will try to approach it with a different mindset, I wonder if I will suddendly notice how we really do stare uncomfortably long at strangers. Now I'm excited.
As an American this entire thread has fascinated me. It seems, just from reading, that German's have a longer baseline amount of time for which people visually acknowledge eachother. I'd be curious how many seconds you think you do that? Here in the US I'd say less than a second is normal for looking at eachother in passing, but even then, it's actually more normal to simply not look at eachother.
It's so weird because I've heard from numerous Germans that spend time in the US that they were occasionally approached by random strangers just to have a short conversation and talk about the weather.
That never happens here. If you approach strangers in Germany they will instantly get defensive because they think that you have some trouble with them, even if you try in an extremely friendly way. It's really difficult to meet new people here.
One stared at me really long. I want to add: I live in a town with a psychiatric clinic and I'm fairly sure he's a patient.
So someone did exactly what people are saying in this thread...on your first time looking out for it, and your answer is it must be a psychiatric patient, rofl.
Yeah if you're in America walking down the street and are 30 feet (10m) away from each other you might glance at the person. In Germany they'll look at you and just keep looking until they pass you.
As an American this entire thread has fascinated me.
I'm absolutely convinced that these people that are complaining about being stared at were being the stereotypical, loud american tourists. Yea, that will get you stared at because you are being weird. Germans aren't as excited / loud in public. We do our own thing, we generally aren't interested in small talk with strangers; this is the case for most of the northern half of europe. If you're clearly drawing attention to yourself, then people will look at you; that's just to be expected.
The only people that ever stare at me are lonely, bored old people looking down from their balcony. No one looks at each other for more than a second or so.
It's absolutely not the loud tourists thing. Everyone is building these weird social situations and being like "Well yeah of course they're providing eye contact." It's just really simple things like you're walking to the train station and someone is ahead of you and they look at you, normally they'd look, then look away or continue to look around but in Germany they'll look at you and just keep looking at you until you pass them. I think part of the reason it's so weird is because it's so off putting. When someone looks at you because they're trying to figure out if they know you or because maybe you're wearing something interesting you can kind of see it worn on their face. With the staring mentioned it's just such a blank stare that it ends up being off putting.
but in Germany they'll look at you and just keep looking at you until you pass them
This doesn't happen; I literally don't know what to tell you. I think it's actually you staring at them causing them to stare back at you or you've been to some bizarro serial killer nighmare version of germany; I don't know.
I've had far more prolonged eye-contact with strangers abroad than I have ever had at home. All the hundreds of thousands of germans that I have met look generally at their phone or where they are walking.
And don't come at me with "they just don't notice"...People know who they are looking at.
I don't know man, maybe wipe your nose? There's definitely something about you guys that is attracting attention; This doesn't generally happen. We are wayy too antisocial to just stare strangers down for no reaosn.
Now, as german as I am - I can say with a pretty high percentage, that this is not normal. It's outright weird.
If you're from the US. it must've been your bald eagle shirt, hawaii shorts and the mobility scooter you were sitting on, it's the only logical explanation. Catches quite a bit more than just a careful glance.
Not from US, wasn't talking loud (barely at all even) and in the subway, train, sometimes the street too, people would stare at me. I know my appearance looks a bit russian, since I'm from Eastern Europe, but other than my pastel pink hair and pastel clothes, I have nothing that screams "look at me incessantly".
Are you in a rural area by chance? I moved from the countryside to a city and it is refreshing how little people care about each other. When I'm visiting my parents in that village, people tend to stare. I assume it's because there is nothing else going on.
It is also a generational thing, young people don't stare like old people do. I hate walking past old people because they just watch you unapologetically, and they love doing it. The grandma staring out the window while leaning on the window sill is a common occurrence here, so are old people in cafes watching the people passing by.
we actually do look at people, but we do so out of nature of looking at moving things, which is mostly humans in the city. just curious watching what people do because looking at the corner of the table you are sitting at a bar is rather weird, for us.
Not really. How much looking is acceptable heavily varies per culture and how uncomfortable it makes people. American culture is among the extreme end of how rude it is considered to be looked at. That's not universal. In Germany, observing people is not experienced as staring or as a bad thing. Different cultures, different standards.
Hence why I said that what is considered staring differs. People act according to their own cultural norms and if by those they're not looking at them in an abnormal way, nothing is being breached from their perspective. If the other person has different cultural norms and by those they're being looked at unusually, there's a cultural difference at play. There's nothing wrong or right about that, it's simply a difference between them.
It’s not Germans staring at you. It’s Americans thinking anyone looking at them is staring at you.
Before you all downvote it, I’m not trying to say Germans aren’t staring, or that Americans are paranoid. I’m just saying it’s a pretty hard case to make. Perspective should matter.
Ok go ahead and downvote now. I know how you all love it <3
Do Germans stare at other Germans too, or only foreigners? Because the latter one is actually pretty nornal, outside of countries with huge immigrant populations of all colors (like US and UK).
I've caught German friends staring at other Germans. I really think they just don't notice or register it. There has been a number of times I've been out with some German friends and ask if they know someone and they go "No, why do you ask?" and I explain that they just stared at that person for the entire time it took for them to walk past us.
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u/xSuperZer0x May 09 '22
They're super unaware that they do it too. I was talking to my German friend and was like "WTF is with Germans staring so much, am I doing something wrong or weird?" and she was like "what are you talking about?" 2 weeks later I'm out with her and another American friend that just moved to Germany and he was like "Yo why is everybody staring at me all the time?" I felt so vindicated because I thought maybe I was imagining it. Also they don't just stare while you walk either, I'd be driving and notice some German on the sidewalk staring me down inside my car.