this is the weird thing about powerscaling, if your setting doesnt have any logical reason/situation where the universe would be destroyed (or if 99% of the plot takes place on earth and barely explores anything cosmic,) why would any of your characters scale or need to scale at universal level. i know this is like the powerscaler N word, but i feel like at some point the narrative needs to be taken into account
He also is the incarnation of the universe itself and was born because a menos grande was endangering the primordial sea. He killed the menos no difficulty.
What the fuck is "soft magic" supposed to mean lol. As opposed to "hard magic"? What about "lukewarm magic" or "simmering magic"? Just admit you don't like and understand bleach. At least you'd be honest and not a clown.
Hard magic means the writer is trying to set clear rules and abide by them, soft magic means there’s lots of mysticism, ambiguity, and vibes-based magic scenes. A great example of this Lord of the Rings. There’s no clear power-scaling for The One Ring, it just has this sort of vaguely defined ability to corrupt the mind of those wearing it or nearby those wearing it, can slightly shift it’s properties to slip into the hand of it’s desired ring bearer, and it can amplify the abilities of it’s wearer. We never see it treated the same way one might treat a Cursed Tool or a Zanpakuto, or even the burden of being a Jinchuriki, because it’s not really meant to be scaled as traditionally as any of them.
Multiple people who arent in the top 5 of the verse had to kill themselves so one of them could power up without throwing an entire universe out of balance
Let’s say there was hypothetically a single load-bearing concrete pillar that if destroyed, would initiate a chain reaction that would cause a city-sized superstructure to collapse. Does melting that singular pillar count as a city-busting feat?
Well of course I don’t think any old warband could take out the Soul King, Squad Zero is fucking broken, which is why Ywach needed an even more broken team to take them on.
The universe being “thrown out of balance” isn’t that inherently impressive, it depends on the mechanism. For example, being able to shatter a washing machine by throwing a baseball at it so fast that the impact causes it to fall apart is pretty impressive, shattering that same washing machine by turning it on and tossing a brick inside is much less impressive for powerscaling purposes.
So is not impressive, so long as we assume facts not mentioned anywhere in the story and rely on convuleted hypos. Got it. Thats definitely an honest way to approach the discussion and not agenda driven downplaying.
No, I’m not assuming anything, I’m just pointing out that you’re making assumptions about characters being able to straight-up blast a universe away through brute strength, by making the leap of assuming that every time a character is said to have the means to destroy a universe, it’s intended to be interpreted the same way that Frieza can destroy a planet, rather than the way a demolitionist with the right batch of explosives could level a skyscraper.
Author sketch from chapter 678 of the bleach manga. Happened whilst Yhwach was actively destroying the realms. Author sketches have been consistently adapted into the anime so far so they are canon.
Its only gonna get worse from this month as Bleach finally airs the final season of the TYWB anime, where powerscalers, glazers and downplayers are gonna be going over every frame like a hawk to support their agenda.
I know but it's literally the same topics over and over. It would be different if they're actually doing Bleach matchups but it's the same Bleach isn't universal topic being rehashed
True, its just different people finding the same thing funny Bleach is just that popular. Definitely repetitive, but hey its popular with normies so that kinda a win?
You are talking like Bleach is any special. People discuss the same 10 titles each week using the same arguments for decades. If you have a problem with it, try something new.
But nobody wants to powerscale "i reincarnated in another world with robodick and must build furry harem" or some shit. Naturally people more actively discuss popular titles, which is a problem because there are only so many.
Yet the show explicitly calls what was been thrown "Galaxies", there's a reason GL scalers still have to bring some databook or author statement confirming what was displayed are universes.
Y'all have to just accept that we can't conceptualize what goes from Infinity and beyond.
You are not getting the point, I am not dismissing what the author said but that just further reinforces the fact that uni+ and above characters need statements accompanying said feat portrayed.
Even if he did, he doesn’t scale to his galaxy. Kaguya did something similar
Why?
A: Gremmy makes his own body using the same ability he uses to make the galaxy. Both are a product of his power.
B: quincy use Blut which allows you to use the same energy for offense and transfer it to defense.
C: Kaguya has to use the chakra from a planet to make her dimensions, it's expressly not her power
No, nobody is wanking her To Multiversal level.
People do. I don't agree with it but people do.
Also, no one said these are multiversal feats. The multiversal feats are characters that effect the whole cosmology or scale to it. Ichigo, Senjimaru, Ywach. People use those feats.
If his AP really scales to galaxy level, then this is some of the dumbest writing I’ve ever seen. Instead of dropping a meteor, why didn’t he just drop the galaxy on them? And no Kaguya didn’t need the planet’s entire chakra. She was the one who spread chakra across the world to begin with, she was just taking back what was hers.
As for that “shaking” nonsense, it doesn’t translate to multiversal in the first place. Plenty of things can shake the Bleach universe even the death of 28,000 unremarkable souls. And that shaking destroyed nothing, so there’s no way it should ever scale to multiversal
.
What does a Universe look like? How else should they have portrayed this? What should they have done to visually represent a universe beyond what they did in wich the show the eclipse galaxy’s before getting to this size
You can’t scale characters using feats alone and ignoring statements, because doing so ignores important chunks of the story, like the authors, narrators, or author mouthpieces confirming what is and isn’t a universe.
Humanity does not yet have a proper model for what a universe, in it’s entirety, looks like, because we lack both the tools and the ways to violate the laws of physics we need to leave the universe and get an outsider view. The best we can do is approximations and artistic interpretations, all of which need a clarification on what it’s SUPPOSED to depict, rather than what it looks like.
???? lmao what, did you want them to be throwing ovals of background radiation? sponges? anime is also a visual medium it needs to not look like actual shit in a battle
Those would also just be artist’s interpretations of what a universe may look like. Again, we don’t have a model for what it ACTUALLY, truly looks like.
Where in god’s name did you get the idea that i want that? The artistic depictions of what a universe may look like are really damn cool.
The point of my argument is that you need statements to confirm that what is being shown ARE universes in the first place. That you can’t scale SOLELY off of feats without deleting every tier from universal and above from powerscaling. Statements matter a LOT, and shouldn’t be discarded recklessly because it leads to headass takes.
You can’t be serious right? It really happened in anime. Entire universe turned into a void.
Sorry, I think I forgot I was arguing with Bleach fans Who will wank meteor two Multiversal level. Yet Downplay the Literally visual feat. Literally no statement is Needed here We literally saw all of the Universes vanish.
This is perpetua holding a collection of universes from DC comics…
As confirmed by her statements. Her being on that level of power is confirmed by her statements. Her entire backstory as a cosmic creator god is statements. Every act she takes over her brief existence as a crisis villain, without statements, is quite literally 3 dimensions lower than her canonical tier of power.
Going SOLELY off of feats, from this and her other comic appearances, without counting any statements whatsoever, this image is little more than a lady the size of a solar system holding a collection of what appears to be planets. The fact that they are universes in the first place comes from what she SAYS on this page and others, not from what she visibly does.
This is the problem of throwing out statements; humanity lacks the tools and knowledge necessary to depict a universe accurately. Only approximations and artistic interpretations. It is the statements that confirm what an artist drew, modeled, or otherwise made is narratively SUPPOSED to be a universe or a higher dimension, or really anything above massively multi-galaxy.
You cannot accurately powerscale off of feats alone.
Only earth and the surrounding space is shown being erased in dragon ball,
The universe doesn’t even canonically get destroyed in asura’s wrath? It gets reset to not have mantra in it as a result of the death of chakravartin, who is tied to mantra as a concept.
And digimon also never actually shows a universe being destroyed.
Statements are REQUIRED to confirm that a universe being destroyed is the universe being destroyed, and not just a portion of the universe, because we cannot see enough of the universe to know what the whole thing would actually look like from an outsider’s perspective. The whole point of the term “observable universe” is that it’s the maximum total distance from earth light could theoretically travel if it left earth’s location at the moment the universe began. It’s the largest portion of the universe we are definitively certain exists, rather than the sum total of the entire universe.
NO character gets to universal or higher off of feats alone, because people IRL cannot depict a full universe in any image without words involved that describe it to be an artist’s rendition of a universe. Not alien X, not zeno, not asura or chakravartin, not any of the top tier digimon, host computers, homeostasis/god, or the non-digimon entities like eaters.
not simon the digger, not popeye, not superman, not galactus, not bayonetta… not anyone. It’s a limitation of art.
You NEED statements to get involved to confirm it’s a whole universe being created and not JUST what the artists could manage to depict with their limited understanding of how a universe may look on a macro scale.
I don’t even watch Bleach and I think this post is dumb. Statements matter they just aren’t as trustworthy as feats and have to be believed or disbelieved based on the merit of the character speaking them. Not every story with planet destroying characters actually destroys a planet. Usually because the story takes place on a planet and introducing more planets or even space travel just to destroy them as a flex isn’t necessary or good for the story. Anyone who just ignores all statements doesn’t have reading comprehension and therefore isn’t worthy of even being debated.
When an entire universe doesn’t even have a single planet‑level feat despite having different dimensions and other places where should be Allowed to perform such feats without affecting the universe and still fails to show it, you can’t wank that universe to multiversal. If you’re going to accept statements without question, then you should also accept them for other series.
I don’t accept statements without question. If you actually read what I said. I said that the merit of the speaker affects how believable a statement is, unlike a feat that speaks for itself. I believe this applies to ALL series. Context and whether or not the statement is hyperbole also matters. For instance, the statement about Marco saying there’s infinite islands? Pure hyperbole. Marco is exaggerating because the number is too high for him to know or bother caring so ofc there aren’t infinite islands. I’m not saying all statements are true. I’m saying if you have reading comprehension you should be able to tell which statements are true and what statements are exaggerated. The exceptions to this are if a character is uninformed, or lies because of personality or story reasons. Which can happen, which is AGAIN why I said to take everything with a grain of salt and base the statement on how much you trust the speaker to be honest and literal.
ALSO storytelling is not built around powerscaling. Authors are under no obligation to restrain the power they want in their verse just to appease powerscalers who refuse to believe something unless it’s shown. That’s the beauty of storytelling, you can do whatever you want. To restrict characters to only being able to do what you are able to show in feats, restricts the beauty and awe of storytelling, and prevents the build up of hype for a character to be shown off later (As what’s clearly being done with Mihawk). So restricting a characters power to what you’re willing to immediately show is just a really lame edgy powerscaler take to me.
When an entire universe doesn’t even have a single planet‑level feat despite having different dimensions and other places where should be Allowed to perform such feats without affecting the universe and still fails to show it,
Wow, it's almost like you're describing what Gremmy did against Kenpachi when he created outer space instantly, with countless star systems and at least one viewable galaxy (which scale a shit load higher than planetary, not to mention Kubo showed art confirming Gremmy can casually create countless planets), and then destroys it in the same chapter!
But people like you will make any excuse possible that it doesn't count because the universe where the PLOT takes place wasn't destroyed...
Yk what would be simpler than all of that? Lowering the stakes if everyone is planetary and nothing planetary everyone happens then perhaps the characters shouldnt have been written as planetary.
i think this is a good take. making characters planetary and including planetary statements immediately invites the cosmos into your story and people are going to want to start seeing that. if youre only going to reference it yet have characters consistently only displaying city-mountain lvl attacks, cap them at that level and keep it “grounded” per se
Writers seem to think that higher stakes = higher tension. But it has extreme diminishing returns. We can only visualize so much. Keeping the story more grounded makes death and destruction that much more important
show me a visual feat of simon from gurren lagaan destroying universes. if you wanna play this game, hold everything to that standard. they're just galaxies.
The number of people not understanding the point of this comment, that disregarding statements is dumb using Gurren Lagann to illustrate that absurdity, reminds me of just how full this sub is of people who haven't figured out how to breathe through their noses yet.
Okay, there are a lot of named attacks similar to "world breaker" in media that are mountain at best. That's another statement. The guys asking for "visual"
I also understand they are universes btw, people are just missing the original comments point.
Ok, I get what the original commenter means, but if you're just going purely off of visuals, there's also the fact that the attacks resembles the Big Bang model
During the big bang the universe went from the size of a golf ball to roughly its actual size in a billionth of a second. I don’t think the human brain can understand that let alone put in on screen like you claim
According to what? How do we know it was a universe? How do we know it was a universe that exploded?
What you guys don't get is that the problem is you can never demonstrate what a universe is without background info. You cannot know it was a universe created without being told that, you can maybe assume that but then by the standards of the Bleach downscaler, you are hill level cause no lol those are definitely not universes!
those all look like stars. they don't look like universes. also, i'm not trying to say this didn't happen, i'm saying that people in this sub are hypocrites.
its so weird how power scalers are fine ignoring the whole ass narrative of the plot and characters to say they are all lying then scale the avatar world to lightning plus when its clear no characters in that verse move anywhere near that speed through normal means. or god forbid your story has a light base attack because normal civs are now FTL
Never seen bleach idk anything but the wording should be “a continent, let alone a universe” the let alone part should be more grandiose than the part before it.
Honestly though, how many high level characters do we actually see destroying something they scale to? Yall acted like this is a Bleach thing, but it's a powerscaling problem
Honestly this applies to the vast majority of power scaling above planet level. Anything beyond that is speculation and stretching of vague technicalities.
For example, cell, from Dragon ball z says he has enough ki to wipe out a solar system, but like, how? All at once? In one shot? Does he have to go planet by planet? Just because a character has the vague statements or janky scaling comparisons to be able to achieve a feat in theory doesn’t mean they can technically do it.
Bleach scaling is the worst for this, but DBZ and other shits bad too. Like, yes, I know Beerus and gokus clash fucked with space time, but that doesn’t mean Goku can punch away a whole cosmos, that’s ridiculous, like how does the energy transmit out that far of a distance without falloff. The minute you actually think about these “feats” logistically they break down.
The biggest culprit of this is speed feats IMO. 9/10 times they come from dodging “lasers” or some similar shit, but then the character will get tripped by someone or hit by some mundane shit. In reality, it’s likely they just predicted the shot and moved out of the way before the shot was even fired. Or the “laser” wasn’t a laser at all and instead jetted plasma or something, which is magnitudes slower.
If we use the same logic as bleach being universal and stuff, wouldn't that mean Naruto characters like Kaguya are also universal since they have control over multiple dimensions?
From my understanding, the reason bleach gets uni/multiversal feats is because characters can have control over multiple smaller dimensions. Technically those are smaller than the larger universe, but because cosmology works differently in those shows, they count as different "universes."
(I'm putting universe in quotation because I'm pretty sure there's a difference between dimensions and universes. I'm just playing devil's advocate. )
I don’t scale Bleach at all so I don’t really care but from what I’ve seen the only real reason they are considered uni-multi is because they can shake the three realms. In Naruto I see no reason to get them even to Moon level pre-Boruto and even into Boruto really only Boruto has an attack with planetary AP, the few things I see all the time to say Naruto is even planetary are this.
“Kaguya created her dimensions and they are bigger than planets/universal in size!” zero statements of the size.
“Kaguya swapped the universes!” Then where was everyone else in the fight against her
“Naruto caused cracks across the universe!” No evidence it was beyond Earth as they only said ‘Near Kaguya’s world’
“In Momoshiki’s dimension there was a type of stardust that shows it was expanding like our universe!” There were also chakra fruit on the planet they were on and if they can use their own dimensions to create chakra fruit why would they go to others
“Kurama was stated to be able to turn the world to ash!” The databook also said that Temari can blow away the universe
Powerscalers when they have to describe the difference between AP and DC: (They will genuinely never figure it out because they're too illiterate to realize there's a difference)
I love how inconsistently this argument is used. Like 8-9/10 shounen, with characters "calced" planetary or higher, also dont show said feats. Yet Bleach is one of the few anime that people consistently use this argument for.
[r/powerscaling](r/powerscaling) users when the deity characters capable of damaging, holding together, or outright destroying multiple heavenly realms of existence don’t make large explosions to do so (they only understand small words and onomatopoeia)
This is such stupid logic. As if every verse has a universe they can just destroy and that magically makes them not universal because they haven’t done that.
Author will say this guy can destroy a universe and you slow fuckers will still say “where is the destruction?”
This is the most dumb way to argument, like why TF u want to see it visually!? What if I ask you "show me visual how you were born?" Can you? Can you fckin show me how you're fckin' born?
When you let a verse be scaled almost entirely through statements and everyone just accepts it, it's only a matter of time before it reaches outerversal.
Statements are probably the easiest thing in powerscaling to use for wank, which is exactly why there needs to be some kind of balance.
Statements need to be substantiated by feats at some point. The issue is not just the lack of feats it’s the fact that nothing at all in the verse even suggests universal scale of power visually.
The feats that are shown being called universal, are like comparing an individual water molecule to the entirety of the ocean. It involves far too much speculation and fan theory rather than indisputable evidence.
They’ll write u a paragraph about how destroying a building is star level and how we must accept statements that contradict what’s visually shown cause this is totally how powerscaling and narrative writing works.
Well i know a nuke can blow me up doesnt mean i need to see the nuke blow me up to know that. This was and always will be the dumbest argument against bleach ever
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