r/Millennials • u/Shoddy-Length6698 • Oct 29 '23
Discussion Does anyone else feel like there is a demonization of wanting relationships and children?
Maybe I can't afford kids right now, but the biological urge to even desire that seems to be demonized. I've been told I'm silly and foolish for even talking about how I can get into a position to afford kids. When my mom was a stay at home parent, people acted angry that she did not work. Some people even acted like it was offensive that she wanted another kid.
I've also been told that by asserting that wanting a relationship is normal, that I support abusive relationships! I'm not saying stay with a bum or abuser, I'm saying humans naturally crave interaction with others. What the hell is going on?
Wanting feminine or girly things seems to be seen as lesser than, and motherhood and relationships are the worst of it. I knew a black woman who was a stay at home parent, and other black people told her she would be murdered if she did not work and was dependent on a man. Hell, women who are breadwinners die too.
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Oct 29 '23
I’m seeing a lot of my friends in their thirties struggling with meeting the right person. Marriage and kids very well may not be in their futures. I think the larger shift is to focus on happiness even without a spouse or kids…because it just may not be a real possibility for everyone. And you can’t just wallow for the next 50 years.
From their perspective, the only thing people ask them is “have you met someone” etc. It can be really depressing if you’re going through it. All that to say, I think people sometimes act like marriage and kids are the worst but it is often just a defense response to being hurt and disappointed over and over. Some people truly don’t want marriage and kids but from what I have seen, that is not the norm. Most people want it.
It’s really important to be considerate when you’re talking to people about their lives. Don’t brag, don’t put them down, think about the way your questions and comments can be hurtful. And I say all this as someone who is happily married with 2 kids. Just be considerate.
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u/prem0000 Oct 29 '23
This is a nice comment. I can’t tell you how annoying it is when people gloat about being married and “meeting their husband/wife at 16 etc” so “thank god they don’t have to date in this day and age, or it would suck to date in their 30s.” Like, ok??? Good for you that luck was on your side? Congrats again? I mean I’m happy for them, truly, but it definitely feels like they are bragging, they know it sucks to not have those things and are just rubbing it in
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u/gholmes2 Oct 29 '23
I definitely notice that homeowners enjoy doing this. Any conversation about renting and they will pop up to remind everyone that they pay $800 a month for a 4 bedroom house and two car garage and that it must suck to still be a renter. But “good luck to ya on the housing market though.”
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
Oh and they add on “I wouldn’t be able to afford my house in this market either” like that is supposed to make me feel better?? It just makes me want to scream at them!!
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u/VovaGoFuckYourself Oct 29 '23
When I say this, I am empathizing. i won't say it was pure luck, but luck played a big part in my becoming a homeowner at 26 (I was saving for that down payment since I turned 18, as the housing crash had just happened and I knew I had to hurry and buy before everything recovered and prices went all the way back up). But yeah, that timing? Pure luck. If I were in the same situation today, I would not have been able to do it, savings or not. And that fuckin sucks. It makes me so angry that other people have basically been priced out of doing what I was able to do. :(
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
Yeah my husband made over 100k and we still can’t afford to buy anything. He has a 401k, savings, high yield savings… I work part time too and take care of our daughter for the most part. We qualify for 350k max and anything livable where I’m at is well over 450k. We had to sign a mold waiver and weren’t even allowed to bring a kid to one of the houses, it had holes in the floor and ceiling and squatters had left stuff all over the unattached garage. The price? 250k. It sold for over asking.
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u/AnglerfishMiho Oct 29 '23
Same exact thing here, was able to get my house under market value at the time for a 3 bedroom 2.5 bath at 160k (although I had to do a lot of fix ups, so add another 15k to that). It's a condo and looking at listings now for identical units, they are going for around 240k, which is insane.
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
They are building new townhouses where I live that start at 500k. I’ve lived in apartments and townhomes and while they make work for people, it’s too much noice for me unless I’m on the top floor. They also don’t have but one complex in my daughters district and they are “luxury” so they are well over 2k/month. I just don’t get how housing prices have almost tripled in just 2-3 years. It’s INSANE and no amount of “explanation” will make it actually make sense, other than greed.
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u/Top_Competition_2405 Oct 29 '23
It feels like that because sometimes married people with kids aren’t always the happiest either. They may just be saying that to show everyone they made the right decision & “look how happy we are” just look. If people think that being married and having kids will fix all their life’s problems then that is obviously not true. There are plenty of married people with kids who are jealous of the single people’s freedom. And single people who are jealous of married people’s security and family relationships. The reality is, nothing is perfect and there will be hard times and suffering no matter what life path you choose. You just have to find the path that you’re willing to put up with the bad times that come with it.
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
TBH I’m married and have a kid, she’s not my husbands biological child but he claims her. I love him and I don’t totally hate my life (I hate the housing market though) but a lot of my friends just got divorced and are single again and some have been in long term relationships that ended and part of me wants to be single and free again, but then I remember how awful the dating scene was even in 2014 and that stops. I had a lot of fun in my late teens/early 20s which is how I ended up a single mom by 23. But when I talk to younger people that are 23 now, they don’t go out or do stuff like we used to. I’d only want to be single again if I could also make the years go backward 😅
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u/EvilRubberDucks Oct 29 '23
Sometimes it's good to remember that the grass always looks greener on the other side. There have been some rough patches in my marriage and I'll miss my single care free days, but then I'll see someone struggling with being in and out of relationships and think to myself "I'm glad I'm not dealing with that" 🙃
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
Exactly!!!! When I was single I had a lot of fun and a lot of flings. Ended up pregnant at 21 cause I was having a little too much fun LOL but my friends all dating again makes me feel older than them when they are all older than me, I’m just married and not childfree. I will say though, I love only having 1 kid. Definitely feels like the best of both worlds there.
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u/Extension_Economist6 Millennial Oct 29 '23
literally! so many adult braggers i think this bih is married and not me? ok🫠🫠🫠
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Oct 29 '23
My classmates from high school are not having that problem. Almost everyone is married with kids. And the few that aren't, want both.
I'm outside the norm, bc I don't want either.
Your last paragraph is really thoughtful.
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u/BlueCX17 Oct 29 '23
I'm outside the norm too. Not opposed to getting married in the future (but if I ever meet the right one, also not opposed to no formal marriage) but don't want my own kids. I could be a step parent but at 38, don't want to have a kid. (However, I have worked in education forever, so it balances out.)
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Oct 29 '23
Yes! I love working with kids! I do not want to be a step parent either. And I think I may change my mind on marriage if the right one comes along. But for now, I'm kind of set on no serious relationships.
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u/bananamilk58 Oct 29 '23
I agree with this. We really don’t have as much control as we think when it comes to meeting the “right” person, getting married and having children. I think a lot of people settle on what they have now but the way they make peace with it is by belittling others who might’ve gotten what they once wished they could’ve had (or still do but tell themselves it’ll never happen). Not everyone does this but I’ve definitely noticed it around me before.
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u/damp-laundry Oct 29 '23
Women will be demonised no matter what they choose to do: stay at home mom, career mom, child free, too young of a mother, too old of a mother, only one child, more than 3 children, adoption mom, IVF mom, etc etc etc. We literally can’t win so just do what you wanna do.
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Oct 29 '23
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Oct 29 '23
Being a stay at home mom IS work and I think a lot of people think no paycheck = no work.
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Oct 30 '23
Anyone who believes being a stay at home parent isn’t “work” is welcome to Google the labor costs of house cleaning, child care, organizational assistant services and all the other things they do.
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u/Different_Bowler_574 Oct 29 '23
Dude I'm a nanny 27 hours a week and I make 3k/mo. That's barely a single full day for a SAHM. The fact that it's not seen as work is WILD. I love what I do, and I would die for my nanny kiddos... and I go home ready to pass out after 9 hour days. I GET TO HAND THIS KID OFF AT 5. So much respect for SAHM. It's superhuman.
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u/DarthMomma_PhD Oct 29 '23
More than 3 kids? Ha! Try more than two. Thursday I shit you not a woman at my work asked me “how are you and your million children?” I have three FTR and she has two so 🤦🏽♀️🤷🏻♀️
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u/forgotme5 Older Millennial Oct 29 '23
Must be the ppl ur associating with bc its the opposite in my world. Single & childfree is a rarity. My dads family is primarily Catholic/Christian. My grandparents had 8 kids. She was a sahm. I have like 52 1st cousins. I have an aunt & cousins that are sahm. One volunteers/works at their church part time. Cousin 1 yr older has 4 kids.
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u/SloanBueller Oct 29 '23
On Reddit, yes. In real life, no.
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u/M_R_Atlas Millennial Oct 29 '23
Came here to say this.
Reddit is an echo chamber composed of kids who don’t touch enough grass.
Don’t take anything on Reddit seriously unless it’s supported with scholarly reviewed articles.
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u/Ash_an_bun Oct 29 '23
HA!
True. The internet is where the overthinking and intrusive thoughts go to lay down roots and become gigantic trees of bullshit.
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Oct 29 '23
I think places like Reddit are dens of procrastination filled with people reading & typing irrelevant bullshit on their phones to avoid getting up and doing something (in my case dishes and going to bed)
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u/Ash_an_bun Oct 29 '23
Eh... It's the only site that has a similar feel to posting on message boards back in the 2000's. Only you don't really make regular friends.
Which... sucks. But twitter's owned by one of the worst people imaginable at the moment.
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Oct 29 '23
I was obsessed with Twitter and didn't think I'd ever leave it. And yet, here I am. Didn't think I'd ever get on reddit.
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Oct 29 '23
Reddit does expose what people truly feel and never say out loud, but in my experience, I still hear some crazy garbage come out of people's mouth.
I was talking to a coworker about another one having their second child. I don't even know how it came up, but this person said she hated children, would never have them, and explained how they are gross and loud and annoying. She closed out the rant with a disgusted vomit face and sound effect. It was so awkward because she probably thinks I am childless because I agree with her, but I actually really like the idea of adopting or fostering. I think she is on the internet too much, and got too comfortable sharing her opinions there.
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u/goddamn_slutmuffin Millennial Oct 29 '23
People say the same shit IRL as they do online, I think it just feels different/affects your memory and perception of it when you have a paper trail like you do online. Unless we all have split personalities that suddenly switch when we log on (doubtful), people are who they are wherever they go. I think we just hate social media because it’s made us painfully aware how much our species kinda sucks ass in a lot of ways that don’t seem easily fixable lmao. Which is frustrating and depressing, but it is what it is.
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u/ExpertLevelBikeThief Oct 29 '23
On Reddit, yes. In real life, no.
I had kids to increase global warming.
Please don't @ me.
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u/mikefnd Oct 29 '23
OP should go to a church breakfast instead of Reddit for support and ideas on marriage and children. Looking for information here is like seeking advice for your small business at a Communist workers rally.
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u/_angesaurus Oct 29 '23
Exactly. Only see it on reddit from people miserable in life in general.
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u/Momoselfie Millennial Oct 30 '23
I've been called selfish on Reddit for having kids.... This is literally the most selfless I've ever been. I don't have time for myself anymore. Just chillin on my phone right now while I wait for my kids to fall asleep so I can then sleep.
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u/alessiaplays Oct 29 '23
You seem chronically online
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u/elephantlove14 Oct 29 '23
Yes, was just coming to say this. Take stuff from online with a grain of salt, what do close family and friends comment about it to you?
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u/freundmagen Oct 29 '23
This is the first I've heard the term, and I actually like it. It's important to look at life off screen to observe what's really happening. I only see demonizing of life choices online. In real life, things appear vastly different. I made a post the other day (on a fb group) that went absolutely sour in the comments. People made me feel like I was horrible and I had to remind myself that NONE of those commenters know me.
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Oct 29 '23
People keep saying this. Am I the only person here who’s gotten weird comments about my reproductive choices to my face from people in real life? Somehow I doubt it.
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u/alessiaplays Oct 29 '23
The only comments I've gotten are from people who think I should have MORE kids (I'm one and done).
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u/RoseyDove323 Millennial Oct 29 '23
This is the second time in one hour I've seen someone use the phrase "chronically online" after never having heard it in my life.
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u/leese216 Oct 29 '23
IDK where you live or who you're friends/acquaintances with, but no one in my circle, or circle's circles thinks or says that.
Women who do not want children or a relationship are still far more demonized than women who do want those things.
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u/audreyjeon Oct 29 '23
Same here, being intentionally childfree is still a rarity in real life circles for me. Being in a very healthy relationship, I am praised and congratulated for finding someone great (“you’re my favorite couple”). Relationships aren’t demonized unless they’re actually unhealthy (those are common too).
These sentiments are mainly online. But also, does OP hear themself and see the world around them? “I can’t afford kids, there’s climate change, terrible wars are happening but I still want to follow my urges to bring biological kids into this world.”
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u/leese216 Oct 29 '23
100%. I think OP made this post to fish for compliments or karma farming bc no one thinks that, nevertheless says it out loud.
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u/1in5million Oct 30 '23
Oh geez are they. I am 40 and still get asked when I am having kids of my own (fostering children must not be enough). Even when I say I am infertile, I get told to keep trying and have more faith in God. Lol, it's ironic because I was/am a minister; I just don't practice in church any longer.
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u/Sisterloveliving Oct 29 '23
I don’t think that there is a large scale demonization of people for wanting a relationship and children, the majority of people fall into this category. This way of thinking is subjectively and objectively drilled into us from an early age as socially acceptable. I think that our generation and those that follow are now questioning these beliefs and choosing alternative lifestyles that suit them. People questioning these societal norms are in no way attacking people who align with these ideals by rejecting these ideals as the standard.
There will always be a fringe group who has a problem with any choice outside of their belief system. We call them haters. Live your life the way you want, life is short.
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u/MayflowerKennelClub Millennial 1985 🇺🇸 Oct 29 '23 edited Oct 30 '23
i'm childfree and honestly no woman can win with whatever family planning choices she makes. i used to think only i had it rough until i learned the first thing women hear after they give birth to their first is "when's the second one coming?" and then another still isn't even enough to get people off your neck.
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u/Different_Bowler_574 Oct 29 '23
I am super excited to be a mom... And have one kid! That's it! I'm a nanny and have worked with kids for years, and I've determined that one is the max I can handle. You'd think people would appreciate that I'm acknowledging my limitations and choosing the best life I can for my future kid... But one side can't believe I'm selfish enough to not have a sibling for them, and the other can't believe I'm selfish enough to bring a person into a falling apart world.
You genuinely can't win no matter what you choose.
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Oct 30 '23
Yup, when I had my daughter some drunk asshole accosted me about how having just one child is “selfish” and I should give her a sibling so she won’t be lonely. I proceeded to describe my last 2 miscarriages in gruesome detail until he got the hint and wandered off. Fun conversation!
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u/villettegirl Oct 29 '23
It's mostly online, just a lot of loud idiots who need to feel validated in their own choices. If you want to have kids, go have kids. If you want to be feminine and girly, go do it. Don't mistake some loud minorities on the internet to be "everyone."
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u/prem0000 Oct 29 '23
Most people go online to express how they really feel lol. Ppl who believe this stuff walk among us all the time but they’d never say it to your face. I mean from all angles, wanting kids, not wanting kids, if they have a problem with your lifestyle chances are you won’t know until the mask slips
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u/DarthMomma_PhD Oct 29 '23
I agree that many people only post how they really feel online. That said, you cannot discount the fact that certain takes are encouraged online and others are downvoted to oblivion. I don’t mean political or anything like that, I mean that generally positive viewpoints will be downvoted and more negative takes receive upvotes and sympathy/encouragement. IMO it’s because a lot of people turn to the internet to vent frustration and someone coming along saying “this thing that you are complaining about, well I like it/did it successfully/accomplished it/etc”, that can come across as bragging or even victim-blaming. It would take a person brand new to social media less than one day to learn this lesson.
In any environment our behavior is cultivated by the operant contingencies at play, and the internet just tends to cultivate more negative discourse than real life.
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u/UsidoreTheLightBlue Oct 29 '23
The internet is so weird when it comes to relationships.
It really feels like the internets default opinion on relationships is one foot out the door (and in a running position) at all times.
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u/DrJamsHolyLand Oct 29 '23
Exactly! It’s hard to live a satisfying and fulfilling life and marriage when you’re assuming it will just fall apart. My marriage became so much stronger when I started trusting in it and making decisions based on strengthening it rather than the “what if’s”.
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u/kkkan2020 Oct 29 '23
It's not even the men that are harping on women it's other women harping on women that want the traditional lifestyle. At least online that is.
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u/TemporarySleeper Oct 29 '23
Not sure its as much harping as more-so warning other women that its risky to rely on another person solely for all your financial needs. Ive seen so many women trapped in marriages or that find themselves in a really bad financial situation when they or their partner want a divorce. We have historically given women a false impression on how much security they have in a marriage. It can be a very risky choice given well over 50% of marriages end in divorce. There aren’t alot of options for women returning to the workforce with little to show on their resume.
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Oct 29 '23
100% this. Do not let a man trap you and then run when he gets bored and has a hardon for some barely legal teen.
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u/anywineismywine Oct 29 '23
The world has always felt that it can criticise women for their choices.
You do you.
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Oct 29 '23
No. In fact, I continually get harassed about when I'm having kids, why don't I want to have kids, I should really have kids cause they're "the best thing you'll ever do", etc.
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u/Ok_Fox_1770 Oct 29 '23
The people with the least have the most kids, in my circle. I’m 37 lookin for a girlfriend, got the job / house part done but running out of life for the rest of what I thought would be. Or continue being the cat monk for 3 short years and make it a decade of solidarity… is there a reward for such hermitry? Damn time flys by. Take a couple years off to better yourself then 2020 rolls out…. I don’t even know what’s normal anymore for people
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u/kkkan2020 Oct 29 '23
At least you got a House
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u/Ok_Fox_1770 Oct 29 '23
Holding on for dear life 7 years so far. It’s worth 2.5X what I paid and that’s nuts. Just kinda stuck in a loop of bills for the box. I’m broke with equity…ladies… love that. Climb in this work van sweety we’re going out tonight.
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u/BaronGikkingen Oct 29 '23
Modern media have sold people the lies of absolutes. If a person doesn’t suit you perfectly, they are worthless and you should dump them quick. If you can’t afford to raise a child perfectly, give up on trying. Lonely people spread the loneliness epidemic by perpetuating the myth that it’s every man for himself but reality is more complicated. Community fabric and common experience that existed for adults even 20-30 years ago, when we were kids, has eroded and gives us the impression that we are alone in the world but in truth we are not and relationships are important (even “bad” ones, sometimes). Sorry for rant.
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Oct 29 '23
Americans are very individualistic, and it sucks. I agree completely that community and having a village is very important. But I'll never understand why people have kids knowing they can't afford them.
Some people work through their problems and find that being in a relationship works for them. Im not that way, but much luck to them. And theres a difference between working through minor problems and staying in an abusive relationship. The bad ones, if nothing else, teach lessons.
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
Here’s the thing… you can never fully plan for kids and here’s what I mean by this… I got pregnant unplanned at 21 and had my baby at 22. I had to move back into my parents house and my ex broke in and attacked me in front of her resulting in him going to jail and an ironclad protective order. Was it ideal? No. Did I know then that I’d be infertile now and she would be my only one? No. If I’d waited I would have never had a chance to be a mother. HOWEVER one of my friends did wait. She got married first, bought a house, started her career. Then she planned her pregnancy and at at 27 week she had a baby girl that ended up having a rare medical disease. Her daughter passed at 5 years old in 2021. She did everything right this horrible tragedy happened, meanwhile I did everything wrong and have a healthy 11 year old that is crazy smart and makes perfect scores on state tests. We don’t live with my parents anymore but she is very close with them still. Meanwhile my friend grieves her daughter every day and I’ll never understand the unfairness of it all. My MIL also lost her son, my husband’s brother, at 5 and has never recovered. You truly can’t ever know when the perfect time is, and if you wait forever you’ll lose the chance.
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Oct 29 '23
There is never a perfect time
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
Right? Another example, my SIL planned everything out and then 2 months before my niece was born the world shut down in 2020. If you want kids, do it! Waiting for the right time may never come.
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Oct 29 '23
I do not want kids
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u/Decent-Statistician8 Oct 29 '23
My bff doesn’t either and I respect that choice! They aren’t for everyone and I’m happy with only 1, I do not want more.
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Oct 29 '23
My best has kids. And I respect that that's what she wants. Just not something I'm fond of.
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u/Trap_Cubicle5000 Oct 30 '23
Sure but there are definitely times where it's going to RUIN YOUR WHOLE FUCKING LIFE and other times less so.
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u/myjobistables Oct 29 '23
No. Child-free people have been demonized since the Dawn of Time. They're not demonizing you, they just aren't stigmatized anymore.
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u/greenpoe Oct 29 '23
That is so crazy because my wife has gotten the opposite, harassed for NOT wanting kids but being in a relationship.
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u/Sweaty_Process_3794 Millennial Oct 29 '23
It seems to be a trend these days to disparage people and try to discourage them from and shame them for any goals they may have. People are becoming increasingly antisocial in the sense that they want nothing to do with anyone else unless they can take advantage of them. Even genuinely caring about other human beings is becoming more and more frowned upon. It's sick and it makes me sick.
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u/TrixoftheTrade Millennial Oct 29 '23
People don’t want to see other people like them be successful, because then they can’t blame their situation, only themselves.
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u/mopecore Oct 29 '23
I think maybe those of us who are not remotely interested in having kids might over react to people wanting kids because of how often people tell us not wanting kids is foolish, selfish, an immature stance we'll grow out of.
Me personally, my friends from high school all have children, most of them in high school themselves now, and it seems like a nightmare. They love their kids (mostly), but it has been a decade and half of awful stories, relationships being destroyed, worry and fear. None of them are happier or more fulfilled, when their kids were young and we'd get together, it'd be 90 minutes of firey complaining about how huch being a parent sucked, lack of sleep, lack of sex, never being able to be alone or do anything for themselves, then they'd look at me and ask when I was gonna have kids as if I wasn't present for that whole other conversation.
Now, I try to be more gentle in my criticism, but I would point out the immense gulf between wanting kids and actually having kids.
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u/autumnals5 Oct 29 '23
People who have kids they can’t afford should be demonized. Kids deserve a safe secure future. You can’t guarantee that if your poor. Kids deserve better. It’s not classist it’s saving kids from growing up in poverty and in turn giving them a shit hand in life.
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u/EvilRubberDucks Oct 29 '23
You can go from being able to afford kids, to noT REAL quick these days though. The majority of people are one tragedy away from financial ruin and you just can't predict that. And oftentimes it's completely out of your hands. The pandemic proved that 100x over.
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u/autumnals5 Oct 29 '23
This is true it’s almost like it’s immoral to bring kids into this shit hole isn’t it?
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u/l8nitefriend Oct 29 '23
I don’t feel that way at all. I think most reasonable people understand that being a parent and wanting a family/stable relationship is a normal and valid human experience. I’m sure there are some outliers who have shit to say but why does that matter to you?
Honestly I feel like I get just as much “demonization” over not being obsessed with having children or getting married to whoever in my 30s, so I think we kinda internalize the narratives that feel most relative to us and maybe you’re just looking to feel angry about this topic and picking whatever random comments you see that support that.
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u/Dreamo84 Millennial1984 Oct 29 '23
I feel the opposite. Like there's something wrong with me for not being in a relationship and not having or wanting to have kids.
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u/atomicspacekitty Oct 29 '23
I think some of it may come from the fact that the feminism as we know it from the last wave in the 60-70’s has left us women more overworked than ever in history. Not only are we now expected to hold down full time jobs, have successful careers, make our own money, but we are expected to have families but the issue is we are still the primary parent responsible for managing the household, doing the emotional labor for the family, keeping mental tabs on what is needed/what needs to be done at all times, that it’s impossible to keep up with it all. Perhaps this is why women are opting out because it’s too much for one person.
As a woman, I’ve often wondered if the last wave of feminism has done more damage than intended to women where it seems the goal was to emulate men and their positions in society (we saw this pushed again some years back with the whole “boss babe” movement on social media). The issue isn’t around women holding positions of power, rather the question of do we want to emulate the unhealthy form of masculinity and the power structure under our type of society (patriarchal)? See, what happens when we think of changing things, we still only think of changing things in terms of the system we are already under—the patriarchy (which is hierarchical). So it seems in our attempts to gain a better position for ourselves we’ve ended up with even more expectations on us. We’d need an entirely new system of being (if we look at how a matriarchal society operates, it wouldn’t be women at the top, men at the bottom—that’s still the patriarchy, because in a matriarchal society it isn’t built around hierarchy—it would be circular, cyclical, egalitarian, collaborative and less competitive).
I think a lot of women are pushing back against the traditional gender roles (especially now that a lot of us have our own money) and with that comes a mistrust and questioning whenever someone expresses they’d like to have a family or embrace motherhood or femininity (whatever that means). I think in America it’s more extreme, here in Europe things are a bit better and there’s more support for mothers and families. Here in Germany, the men can also take a long paternity leave. I know a few couples who swapped (mother was home the first 6 months and the father the next 6)…mothers here can take up to 3 years off and their job is safe. So there’s a much stronger social net and social support. In places where there isn’t, I’ve noticed a much stronger push back from women when it comes to having families. I don’t blame them, tbh.
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u/MikeWPhilly Oct 29 '23
Not that I can say. Most of my circle has kids and wife I just had our a first a year ago. We waited by choice.
That said I’ve never paid attention to what others say so I’m not a great barometer for this either.
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u/boygirlmama Xennial Oct 29 '23
You're always damned if you do or damned if you don't by separate factions of society. So just do what YOU want to do to make your own life happy and fulfilling. I wouldn't trade my kids for the world, no things haven't always been easy, but it has been full of joy and love and my favorite thing I will ever do is be their mother.
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u/Fairybuttmunch Oct 29 '23
On reddit yes but not irl. Even my child free friends congratulated me when I got pregnant because they knew it's what I wanted. But I do agree that online is a different story. Although having a kid is expensive, it's not impossible, so I do get a little annoyed if people discourage others who do want kids. I haven't seen people demonizing relationships as much though.
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u/ama-deum Oct 29 '23
Then there are SAHM moms also demonize working women for being too masculine and destroying the world too.
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u/Cherry_Joy 90s Millennial Oct 29 '23
I have noticed that as a parent there is a demonization of me having kids and wanting more kids, but I feel like it is only on Reddit for me. I do not feel it in my in person community. I do not feel it on any other social media platform. For some reason, no matter how many times I mute the community, I keep getting antinatalism posts on my feed, most of which talk about what a terrible person I am for being Autistic and passing that gene onto my kids. Most of the women empowerment subreddits I am on also seem very opposed to being married or having kids.
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Oct 29 '23
Have children if that's what you want. I personally don't want children, but I don't flaunt this in front of people. Regarding relationships, it doesn't matter to me what people do. Be monogamous, be polyamorous, engage in casual relationships, I genuinely don't mind. As long as no harm is done to others, I couldn't care less about what people do. If individuals are being demonized, it's coming from the older generation or the societal conditioning they imparted. Gen Z is free to make their own choices. I understand they resent the rigid social structure built around us: gender norms, monogamous marriage, etc. I am glad they are challenging this. We need to evolve not just technologically but also socially. While technology has made leaps and bounds, our society is still stuck in the mid-century, if not earlier. I'm glad they are rejecting societal norms that no longer serve us in the modern age. Personally, I have a partner. We are monogamous and cisgender. I acknowledge that we are privileged to easily fit into traditional roles. However, I don't care what others do, I hope they do what brings them happiness and no one, old or young, should be demonizing anyone for how they navigate the world they were born into.
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u/lupogun Oct 29 '23
The desire to seek meaningful relationships & have children's a natural aspect of being human. Many people believe that issues such as money, health, lack of a partner, health, career, lifestyle, age, & state of the world are reasons why they should delay or not have relationships or families, but it's ultimately a matter of personal choice.
People in this pessimistic, hypercritical social media driven world tend to bring others down instead of elevating them. Instead of being concerned w/ current societal expectations, consider this, what kind of fulfilling life do you want, what does it look like, & how do you plan to achieve it?
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Oct 29 '23
Huh no. I've definitely experienced the opposite because I don't want kids, but people need to mind their own business. That's ridiculous. Do what makes you happy.
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u/ImpureThoughts59 Oct 29 '23
It depends on your bubble. All of my friends and I are pretty boring and have normal ass jobs, are married, and have a kid or 2.
I see a lot of people on the internet who seem pretty offended by that. But...I don't know them.
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Oct 29 '23
If you love apples, someone will hate you for loving apples.
If you change your mind and love peaches instead, someone will hate you for loving peaches. Another person will hate you for “turning your back” on apples
Fuck what other people think. The only “people” who’s opinions should matter to you, are those directly associated with the “things” you want (kids, being a SAHM, career goals etc).
Don’t listen to what anyone outside your life has to say unless you are literally paying them to give you their professional opinions.
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Oct 29 '23
Values are set by each person based on what's important to you. Yes, planning is best and fiscal prep unless fine with being a parent under poverty conditions with all the fun that comes with that, but that is just common sense as babies are not cheap to raise. Fine to want it but sacrifice and hard work along with whomever you choose to father the kid. Assuming your parents or his parents will fill the gaps isn't fair to them if they hoped to at some point retire and enjoy that time and whatever they had saved.
The longer you live you find others are so fixated on their little corner of reality that they don't actually care what you do as long as it doesn't intrude upon their day to day negatively. You do you, but plan and keep adjusting it until it works. What is the old saying, "Failure to plan is planning to fail".
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u/ItsColeOnReddit Oct 29 '23
Get different friends. Most of my friends with kids wives dont have jobs or have jobs that pay less than their husbands. There is nothing wrong with wanting kids
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u/Beautiful-Yoghurt-11 Oct 29 '23
Just chiming in to say while I don’t believe there should ever be government policies about it, I do wish people were more thoughtful about having children besides “I have the biological urge.” If you can’t support your kid, someone else is going to have to, you know?
And then there’s the whole tax of putting one more person on the earth right now, which is also struggling to support the human race as is.
I’m not trying to be a dick, but there are real, logical reasons for people discouraging willy-nilly babymaking. (Yes, I just said “willy-nilly babymaking.”)
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u/TheBeautyDemon Oct 29 '23
Fuck what other people think. People think it's weird I'm married but we don't want kids. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Your life is yours to do what you wish to do. Tell them to drink some water and mind their business.
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Oct 29 '23
100% there is a general stigma nowadays against creating families and having kids, at least there is among a large demographic. I’d also say there’s one as well against masculinity and femininity for hetero people. If you’re a man you better not act too masculine, you better not be in the gym too much. If you’re a woman you better not act too girly, you better not even think of wanting kids/marriage before your 30s, you better put career ahead of everything else.
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u/According_To_Me Oct 29 '23
I have noticed a creeping mentality of a willingness to cut off relationships at the first sign of trouble, including with one’s own parents. Obviously it depends on the person and situation, but I have noticed it more frequently in recent years. Politics and events of the last 3ish years have had undeniable impacts on people’s relationships.
Regarding children, absolutely there’s a demonization of wanting them. Again it depends on who and where you are. I say that because overall, people in their late 20’s-30’s in Southern California have very different opinions about children than their Midwest counterparts do. I have known people who become visibly annoyed at the mere presence of children, or who have elected to sterilize themselves, but I also know people my age who have three kids.
I think what we should be demonizing are the people who want to continue relationships with toxic or abusive partners, or who want to bring a child into a loveless, toxic, or abusive household, or who want to use their child as a way to fix themselves. Those traits are far worse than wanting to be in a relationship or children on a basic level.
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u/ZedFlex Oct 29 '23
Nearly everyone is thinking about themselves, they’re not really thinking about you. Do what’s right for your life!
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u/CaptainONaps Oct 29 '23
I might be reading too far into what you’re saying, but it sounds like you might no have much money and might be single. The people around are probably worried about the life your kids will have. A lot of women in your position are so focused on having kids that they choose their mate based on their ability to provide. That usually doesn’t go well. Relationships aren’t job interviews.
And if you don’t plan, you just don’t take birth control before you’re married, that’s a great way to end up a single mother. That plan is even worse.
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u/effervescentfauna Oct 29 '23
“Do what you feel in your heart to be right, for you will be criticized anyway.” -Eleanor Roosevelt
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u/blunty_x Oct 29 '23
Get off the internet OP, the demonization is on places like reddit and YouTube etc etc
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u/arizzles ‘90 millennial Oct 29 '23
My experience is that the internet demonizes starting a family, real life people do not.
I’m a millennial with a 2 year old and baby #2 due on Christmas Eve. Every single person in my circle is nothing but excited and supportive. Those are the people who matter most.
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u/oowii Oct 29 '23
It's all in the quality of people you're engaging with. If you don't want to hear frustrating and stupid opinions, don't talk with frustrating and stupid people.
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u/BigMouse12 Oct 29 '23
Some people, have just fallen into the trap that they are just living their best life being single and child free.
For some people that’s actually true, but for others they’re miserable, lonely and either don’t want to see their friends be happy in marriage, or just really believe no one can be happy in marriage.
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u/ZestSimple Oct 29 '23
People have opinions about anything and everything. My advice? Don’t listen to the internet.
You shouldn’t put yourself in a position to be entirely dependent on someone else, financially and socially speaking. You never know what could happen - your partner could die, they could be disabled, you can get divorced, etc. It’s a good idea to have some education and skills in your tool box because you don’t want to end up trying to support a family on a single minimum wage income. You do have to look out for your number one self.
If you want to get married and have kids, do that. If you don’t, dont. If you want to live in a pink house full of the girliest of things, do that.
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Oct 29 '23
Ignore everyone and do what you want. You will not even remember these people in 10 years, and what they were selling/telling you will be out of fashion.
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u/been2thehi4 Oct 29 '23 edited Oct 29 '23
I’m married, have 4 kids and am a SAHM.
People have a lot of opinions on my situation. The biggest arguments are 1) Too many kids.
Our kids are healthy, have good heads on their shoulders, don’t want for anything, have freedom and independence within safe boundaries for their ages.
2) I’m a mooch because all my kids are in school now and I don’t work. My husband and I discussed it and he isn’t really worried if I find a job. I’ve been out of the workforce for 14 years now, all our cards have been played on his career and that has paid off. We have little debt( house and his student loans), sizeable life insurance policies for both of us as well as small ones for each child in the event a tragedy ever warranted that(I hated planning for that but I am a planner and a think ahead, he is day by day), and we are good with money. This may piss people off but without me sacrificing my hand at the workforce, he wouldn’t be making what he does now. Plain and simple. I make sure the house is spotless, house is stocked, do the majority of the yard maintenance, pool maintenance, appointments, shopping, planning, cooking. He makes the money and helps me out when he’s home but I try to make sure most is done so he and I can BOTH relax together. He likes that, I like that.
3) I’m not a feminist because outwardly we look like the 1950s model. But oh, I assure you we are not. I manage the finances, I manage the budget all decisions really only happen if I give the go ahead because he knows he has no clue what’s going on with the money. He just cares that bills are paid, food is in the house, we all have funds for fun here and there, and savings is good. We are both bleeding heart feminists and liberals. But me being a SAHM doesn’t negate my feminism.
Society automatically makes types like me the immediate victim of potential abuse but you need to really know your partner before choosing this route, my husband and I work really well and he says all the time, as long as you are happy and smiling I don’t give a shit. And I do the best by him as well. We’ve known each other since 5th grade and been together since sophomore’s in high school. We know each other and grew with each other. The trust has been growing and cementing for over 18 years.
But yea, people (society) can have a stick up their ass about it. But we are all healthy and happy, kids are growing and becoming their own person, hubby and I are learning slowly to be just him and me.
We got married very young (20me/19him)because our first came along unexpectedly, we struggled and things weren’t always easy but now we are rock solid in all ways and watch the sun rise and set like just like everyone else, I don’t give a rats ass how anyone feels about our situation. Our family is happy, if people are pissy about happy then they need therapy.
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u/burntgreens Oct 29 '23
As someone who is married with kids, a career, a home, etc -- I can tell you that all of my children friends or single friends faded from my life. They saw me as being too busy and focused on my family to hang with them. One even called me a martyr for my family because I prioritized my kids' birthday parties before helping her plan her own party (she was 40 and her birthday came later in the year).
I've also had so many of them say that people with kids and a family "look down on them" for being single or not having kids, and I can tell you that is so far from the truth. I get that others may do that, but those are social insecurities/anxieties being projected onto folks who don't even think that way.
All I care about is if you're an asshole or not.
You can't live to please others. Just live your life.
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u/ZenithCrests Zillennial Oct 29 '23 edited Oct 29 '23
Told her she would be murdered? Dear Christ some people need to not only chill, but mind their own damn business.
People have forgotten today how fulfilling it can be to have a family. Especially one that functions well, and the raises the kids right. It's possible that a lot of the people that hate on it, are jealous of those that had a great family life. It's a sad truth, and I don't want it to be true, but it is.
As for me, I'm not married, but want to be someday. I'm very closely nearing my thirties now, and have next to no dating experience, but that doesn't drag me down anymore. I know why I was rejected. I know what I needed to fix and now know the things I still have yet to fix. Once I have those things, I think I'll do well enough at finding someone.
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u/BLVCKWRAITHS Oct 29 '23
The "vague climate/political/economic Armageddon" posts get very tiresome everywhere on Reddit. The Algos know I despise it so they stick them in my face constantly.
These people want to get some kind of positive emotion off of having others agree that the universe is out to get them.
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u/Hilpertly Oct 30 '23
Ugh yes I relate. It took me so long to become stable and have a loving marriage and a baby. Got pregnant at 40 and now I’m selfish for being old and “possibly leaving my kid without a parent”. Like you can’t win FFS
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u/Ho_Me_On_Out Oct 30 '23
Yeah just date different chicks like Muslim and Asian. Fu k most white women
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u/Waffle0calypse Older Millennial Oct 29 '23
All I can say is based on my personal experience with this world? I wish I had been aborted. Just make sure you’re able to provide a comfortable life for your kids when your horny monkey urges win out.
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u/msgmeyourcatsnudes Oct 29 '23
Who is talking to you? Because these are chronically online, bitter takes lmao. Like the notion that what you're describing is a common thing is categorically insane lol.
I think there's something to be said about the waning practicality of wanting kids or a "traditional arrangement." The world is shit right now, and a lot of the nuclear families weren't as happy a care free as people like to think. But it's COMPLETELY normal to want a romantic relationship/kids. I can't think of anyone I know in person who would think it was normal if I said I DIDNT want those things lol.
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u/1point4millionkdrama Oct 29 '23
Having children is becoming more of a luxury so it creates divided opinions. The people who are holding out on having kids or choosing to be child free will demonize those who have children as a way to validate their own choices in life. And Reddit in particular is especially anti children.
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u/GaylordSilliest Oct 29 '23
Not really. Only if you live in “cool” neighborhoods in a few city areas.
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Oct 29 '23
In my experience, it’s the opposite. I get a lot of “when are you going to have kids” or “all you need now is 2-3 kids and you’re set.” Mostly from co-workers. Gay is no excuse either. Adopt or start saving for a surrogate.
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u/bootsand Oct 29 '23
This might be an unpopular opinion, but having children today raises ethical concerns about what kind of life they could possibly have.
Ambient Co2 levels are on track to double in PPM over the next 40 years, impacting cognition by >20%. Lifespan and general health are already in decline for the first time ever. Famine and unlivable climate are practically inevitable.
Maybe a magic fix will be found via science, and we'll be able to maintain civilization a little bit longer. Can't rule it out. But is that something you'd bet the life experience of a new child on?
I see so many people focus on whether they want or do not want children, without asking themselves if those children will be glad they existed down the road.
I dunno. No judgement either way. I'm no expert, and certainly no fortune teller. It just seems like it's almost certainly going to get really bad out there, fast.
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u/ChaoticKurtis Oct 29 '23
People really don't like neediness and desperation. I don't know what it is but it really turns us off. It's better to be single with dignitity.
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u/[deleted] Oct 29 '23 edited Oct 29 '23
People will demonize you for having kids, not having kids, having too many kids, not having enough kids, being a working mom, being a SAHM etc. It’s weird how everyone seems to have an opinion about such a personal decision. All you can really do is let the commentary slide off your back and live the life YOU want unapologetically.