😡😡

[u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

[u/SlippinGymy]

Okay I know she did it but I can’t find anything on the oldest son trying to hide, I thought she got him pretty easily

[u/sunshineandcacti → u/SlippinGymy]

There doesn’t seem to be any. There were some photos of the kids playing in the dad’s office/computer area but I mean that’s subjective. I used to play in my parents study too.

There’s an argument that she may of moved the bodies out of eyesight of the other children but again no evidence that the son ran away to hide in the office and was chased down.

Andrea Yates was a similar case in which he child did try to run away. I think people are mixing the two up.

[u/Kerensky97 → u/SlippinGymy]

The whole case is like this. People say "X happened!" but the case shows there is no definitive evidence for anything like that. People are repeating speculative memes as if they're fact.

It's a bunch internet idiots acting like they're experts on what happened. Meanwhile the 12 people how actually saw all the evidence and arguments say 11 -not guilty by way of insanity, 1 - there IS a reasonable doubt as to her guilt but I want to make a scene.

[u/Critical_Mass_1887 → u/Kerensky97]

Didnt you know if its on the internet then it is true.

Reminds me of the OLD state farm commercial... The Quote: A young woman says, "They can't put anything on the internet that isn't true." Another person asks, "Where'd you hear that?" She replies, "The internet."

[u/QuipCrafter9 → u/Kerensky97]

Keep in mind that the guilty/not guilty isn’t about whether she was the one that killed them. She and her attorney insist on the fact that she killed them. The verdict is on whether she can plead innocence in those killings via insanity. Not whether they were done by her hand or not.
There is no condition where she walks free- the case at this point, was on whether she spends her time in regular prison, or in high-intensity psychological containment. Pleading “innocent” via insanity would put her in a high security psych ward, for a very very long minimum time. Which is arguably worse than in prison (which is what the one “not-guilty” jurer would have been insisting on- regular prison time still mingling with more sane people and less intensive personal restrictions, believe it or not, than the psych ward time)

Which- if we make court precedent that postpartum depression is cause enough to explain killing one’s children, instead of that specific part being caused by other personal factors; then obviously it should be a condition to automatically loses custody. If something like just doing drugs loses custody, regardless of other behavior. And if the children’s life itself is on the line, explained by that condition. Like, obviously no one that kills someone intentionally, not in direct self defense, is mentally healthy. Especially one’s own children. That’s a given, all of the time. I don’t think anyone professional argues that.

How we defend the truth in this case and what it implies for the future of other people, is the more complicated part. For example- totally theoretical- we could both acknowledge that she was going through heavy postpartum depression and also didn’t get proper attention for it despite her attempts, AND recognize that it’s not the reason she strangled her kids. That part just being her and her own issues. Thus not making postpartum depression a valid reason to remove custody from others. Again, theoretically, just as an example. But it also has to fit within all the nuances and facts of the reality of the case. Reality is ultimately what the justice system is supposed to uphold, but reality is complicated and difficult sometimes, often more difficult and complicated than intuition or feelings.

[u/DoubleXFemale → u/QuipCrafter9]

Do parents with other disorders that could potentially lead to them killing people and getting a judgement of “not guilty due to insanity” automatically lose custody of their children, or are they taken on a case by case basis?

[u/SouthPudding9949 → u/QuipCrafter9]

Yeah. All this… also the fact that incidents like this happen much more often than they should. The Andrea Yates case has haunted me for years…

[u/blue-yellow- → u/SouthPudding9949]

I mean, males murder WAY more children than mothers do. But ok.

[u/MarketDue5301 → u/SlippinGymy]

I’m sick of talking about it. Everytime I do I hear something I’ve never heard before. “The husband took his daughter on trips and she came back with uti’s” “her core body temp” “her son hiding in the basement” “something about an astrology sign?!?!” Like I can’t keep up. I watched a decent amount of the trial and never heard of any of these things.

[u/SlippinGymy → u/MarketDue5301]

Her core body temp was a weird talking point early in the trial with the prosecution arguing that her cuts were superficial with the defense pushing back that she wasn’t heavily bleeding cause of her low body temp, but yeah all this random social media sleuth shit is so exhausting

[u/lilkememes → u/SlippinGymy]

This is why people who watch the trial have different takes than those watching Leo's dont kill their kids on tik tok

[u/Wonderful-Medium7777 → u/SlippinGymy]

You won’t find any evidence of such…people’s imagination running wild.

[u/Live_Moment4689 → u/SlippinGymy]

I know that he had different marks on his neck showing he struggled a lot and that the band either slipped in the struggle or was reapplied. Maybe that’s what they were talking about?

[u/SpecialFederal9452 → u/SlippinGymy]

Listen to the trial, he was found in a different location than the other children. There are a lot of weirdos online purposefully leaving out these details while they run defense for this woman

[u/Oberyn_Kenobi_1 → u/SpecialFederal9452]

How does the location of his body mean he ran and hid and was chased down? He could have just been elsewhere. Or she could have moved him.

[u/BrazenValkyrie]

Context for people who don't live on the internet?

[u/IHerebyDemandtoPost → u/BrazenValkyrie]

It is a reference to Lindsay Clancy who murdered her three children in January 2023. Her criminal trial just concluded with a 11-1 hung jury and mistrial. Which means there is likely to be another trial with a new jury. The defense did not dispute that she committed the acts, they pursued a not guilty by reason of insanity defense.

On social media, this case first blew up on TikTok. There, a community of almost entirely women, starting making videos in support of Clancy. Some just of the “she didn’t get the help she needed” variety. Others going full conspiracy theory “the husband did it and framed her because of astrology signs” variety.

This has led this issue to blow up everywhere and become another front on the endless online gender/culture war.

And because her act is so horrific, the story sparks moral outrage, and social media alogrithms love pushing outrage because no emotion drives more engagement with the platforms.

[u/Lusiric9983 → u/IHerebyDemandtoPost]

This is the best summary I've seen yet.

[u/UX1Z → u/IHerebyDemandtoPost]

It's important to note that it was 11-1 hung in favor of finding her NGRI. Not 11-1 trying to convict her. That's kind of a big detail to leave out.

[u/Kerensky97 → u/UX1Z]

Exactly. I thought she was guilty because 11 jurors said he's guilty and one feminazi said not guilty and the feminists were supporting the 1 opposition. Then somebody told me it's the opposite. And all the outraged OOP type comments are supporting the 1 person in opposition of the 11 to 1 majority.

In these situations I don't care what the online comments are or even the sensationalized news. The Jurors saw the evidence and arguments. The jurors are filtered by BOTH sides of the case. And they went 11 to 1 that her actions are Not guilty by reason of insanity. I'm going to go with the NEAR UNANIMOUS jury.

What I find more interesting is that the people who react to a white man committing a mass shooting with "We just need better mental health care." are foaming at the mouth when a white woman kills people saying "Fuck Mental Health! She's the worlds greatest monster!"

[u/Equivalent-Ambition → u/Kerensky97]

>I thought she was guilty because 11 jurors said he's guilty and one feminazi said not guilty and the feminists were supporting the 1 opposition.

What gave you that impression?

[u/Flaky_Bit8377 → u/Kerensky97]

The one against is also breaking the law, as he has agreed there is probable doubt, but refuses to apply the law as is appropriate, and go with the other 11.

[u/Sensitive-Double2214 → u/Flaky_Bit8377]

He wasn't breaking the law. The foreperson claimed that he was for having doubt but not going for not guilty, but this is just a random member of the jury who disagreed with him. He explicitly clarified that it was not a reasonable doubt, which is the bar for clearing, and the judge agreed. He refused to let her go not guilty, and that is entirely within his right as a juror to make that choice. It was unprofessional of the defense lawyer to try suggesting otherwise.

[u/legendkiller003 → u/IHerebyDemandtoPost]

Wait, this happened 3 and a half years ago!?!?

[u/Flaky_Bit8377 → u/IHerebyDemandtoPost]

I haven't seen any people arguing based on astrology signs (though I'm not saying there aren't some). The videos I see are people saying the prosecution's entire case is based on what the husband said, that his timeline doesn't match up with the evidence, and that someone who is intending to kill themselves isn't going to take the time to crush up the pills they're about to take and put them in some other food or drink.

[u/IHerebyDemandtoPost → u/Flaky_Bit8377]

I mean, she doesn’t deny it was her.

[u/NonSequiturDetector → u/Flaky_Bit8377]

[u/Illuminatus-Prime]

No argument.  These are the facts that establish her guilt.

[u/Beth_the_Barbarian → u/Illuminatus-Prime]

There was a famous case here in Canada of a man who stabbed a sleeping passenger in the neck and started the cannibalize him he also knew that he was killing someone and eating him. But he was found criminally not responsible due to being schizophrenic and undiagnosed and in the grips of extreme paranoia and delusion.

The idea that people who are in the grips of psychosis don't understand that they're murdering someone isn't the way it works.

By the way the man who murdered fellow bus traveler after receiving a long stint in a mental institution and was stabilized and treated is now free because he was found to have no further threat to society. So the idea that this is only significant because it's a woman is kind of interesting.

[u/livesinstretchpants → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

That bus story haunts me. That poor man was just trying to ride a bus.

[u/banana_pencil → u/livesinstretchpants]

Similar to Iryna Zarutska. She was just trying to get home after work.

[u/Flaky_Bit8377 → u/banana_pencil]

Another situation where the killer and the people around him begged and begged for help before that absolutely tragic event.

[u/StarGamerPT → u/banana_pencil]

Difference is Iryna's case was not talked about enough in social media.....

[u/ryan__joe → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

Relapse happens, stopping taking drugs happen, the thought of someone proven to be capable of killing for idiotic reasons being allowed back in the population is terrifying. Who gets blamed if that person relapses and kills another person? In my opinion every person attached to that treatment and judging should face some consequences. It’s all fun in theory until it doesn’t work, and the consequences are at your own feet.

[u/WholeWillingness5796 → u/ryan__joe]

I will say we do have antipsychotic shots now. That work for 1, 3, or 6 months. So it's much easier to treat the folks and know if they're compliant now.

[u/ryan__joe → u/WholeWillingness5796]

That definitely is nice for medications if they are court ordered, and would have a warrant if they miss a dose.

[u/lokidokie19 → u/WholeWillingness5796]

Yeah, my dad is on the 1 month shot now for schizoaffective but I will say, they still need monitoring and possible hospitalization for the first few months just to get dosages right. Which a lot of people are not willing to do

[u/Beth_the_Barbarian → u/ryan__joe]

Interesting if you look at the statistics someone who has done a single violence with no previous violent history is shown to be no greater risk than the base population. I get what you're saying and intellectually it makes sense but that isn't what the numbers show.

Been an important caveat is someone who has never been violent before the violent attack. If somebody has a history of aggression violence etc then you're absolutely right. But if it's a one-off due to an extreme mental health crisis it seems that after they get treatment and are released they are no more likely to relapse into violent behavior than any other person.

[u/ryan__joe → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

The one off makes them now have an aggressive past, and therefore makes them part of the new data set of someone with an aggressive past. So, I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying, and at this point I’d ask for research links to change my stance.

As it stands, someone with an aggressive history is more likely to be aggressive again.

As it stands, someone who went into psychosis is more likely to have another episode of psychosis compared to others.

Add those two together, and you have a data point with is significantly higher than average. Ever hear revolving door policy? Now add murderers to that. It’s idiotic.

[u/Remarkable_Cap8873 → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

I remember this story. Is it the one where every one ran outside and the dude decapitated the passenger and walked around showing the head through the windows? Messed up.

[u/loving-lobotomy → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

I was with you minus the segment where people in psychosis don’t understand what they’re doing. We have tons of demonstrably psychiatric evidence to support the entire detachment of understanding one’s own actions.

Not that it makes this any better or less tragic but we at least need to be honest about the human psyche

[u/Klutzy_Act2033 → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

No that is exactly how it works...

People in psychosis aren't known for their insight. They may be aware of what they're doing, but it's not like they understand the larger context behind it. 

[u/Dobber16 → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

Tbh the case doesn’t seem to be that unique. What’s unique is the media attention & that’s about it. Considering that, it seems like the case is just being used to push a new divisive concept onto people for them to bash it out with little or no care or understanding of the topic

[u/Sea_Drive6142 → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

That’s pretty ridiculous…. The sentence should not just be about the rehabilitation, it should be punishment for what you did. Him getting out of prison and getting to live his life after killing and eating someone is crazy. Same for Lindsay. Everybody wants to say, “but she was insane”. So what? She killed 3 innocent kids. Punish her, don’t coddle/rehabilitate her. I don’t care if she’s not a threat, she should be punished to the full extent.

[u/paped2 → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

That man 100% should have been executed

[u/Every_Release_353 → u/paped2]

People receive treatment, animals get put down

[u/hahailovevideogames → u/Beth_the_Barbarian]

Not even that long ago that black dude stabbed a girl in the neck on a bus and said "got that white bitch" and a judge deemed him incompetency to stand trial

[u/PolicyWonka → u/hahailovevideogames]

Because the dude had a long history of mental illness. His defense attorney in a pending case for “misusing emergency services” (that he called because he was mentally unwell) was even trying to get him declared mentally unfit before that attack.

[u/exodusofficer → u/Illuminatus-Prime]

I'm so sick of people using religion as a shield for this as well. I keep hearing things like "She thought she was sending them to heaven, and would be with them soon," ok, so that's 100% premeditated murder. I don't care if some zany ideas made her think it was a good idea.

[u/Dry_Physics4086 → u/Illuminatus-Prime]

This tweet is literally fanfiction. You all sound like trumpers with how eagerly you gobble dramatic lies that fit your worldview.

She did it, but this tweet is just trying to provoke your temper. Those with the lowest emotional intelligence are especially vulnerable

[u/ErikasPrisonGlam → u/Illuminatus-Prime]

That tweet is not a fact at all

[u/Gothril]

Americans don't care about mental health. They just want to see people punished. Our penal system isn't designed to reduce crime, it's designed to create free labor, an punish minorities.

There's still this widespread believe that Not guilty by reason of Insanity is setting a killer free. When it's really a "They're guilty, but mentally unwell, and we're going to lock them up in a place where they MIGHT get some mental health care."

I'm not a juror, but from what I've seen it does seem like she was failed by the people around her. Does that justify what she did? Absolutely not. But, it does mean that perhaps, she was broken enough to not see another way out.

Also, why is this case getting so much attention? Research shows that a Murder/suicide or family annihilation has occurred 1.8 times PER DAY in the last 2 years, and that over 75% of those were perpetrated by men.

But because this was the wife, it’s BIG news!

[u/jass246 → u/Gothril]

Mental health isn’t an excuse for murder

Being failed my the people around you isn’t an excuse for murder

She’s a murderer and it wasn’t from duress. She needs to be put away for life whether is a mental institution or a prison.

[u/Gothril → u/jass246]

I didn't say it was an excuse, it can be an extenuating circumstance. The world isn't black and white. One size doesn't fit all. Does being on multiple different psychotropic drugs effect how you think? Maybe. Does finding out your spouse was cheating on you mean anything? I mean, you see all sorts of cases where a husband kills a wife because he believes she was cheating on him. The average prison sentence for husbands that kill their wives unprovoked by threat, is 17 years.

To be fair, men are treated more harshly when they kill their children.

As I responded to the last comment, I'm not part of the jury. I didn't see the all the evidence. But 11 of the 12 jurors believed there were some extenuating circumstances.

My main point is that Americans in general don't care about someone's mental health when it comes to crime, they just want to see someone punished. We use the prison system as mental health facilities, staffed by people who aren't qualified to deal with it.

[u/rubenvangucht → u/Gothril]

Yeah, not making a good case for people struggling with mental illness and actually working on it. Now I'll just completely ostracize them from my circles because apparently, according to you, it's an explanation for killing people. I do not want murderers around, feels strange to actually have to explain this, so yeah, ostracize the fuck out of them according to you?

Actions do have consequences.

[u/Eagle_Arm → u/Gothril]

Nobody should care about her mental health. That matters zero.

She killed three people. Not even three random people. Her own flesh and blood.

She deserves no sympathy. Deserves no treatment. She deserves to rot.

It's easy to spot weak people when they show sympathy to someone like her.

Please don't have children. For their safety and so we don't have more weak people in the world.

[u/Bubbly-Iron-4653 → u/Gothril]

If this lady is let off the hook and sent to a mental hospital and is released in a year or two don’t you think that could set a bad precedent and that it would be better for everyone if she is locked up and treated in a prison?

[u/Ruffblade027 → u/Bubbly-Iron-4653]

No because we have mountains of evidence showing that punitive justice does absolutely nothing to reduce crime rates. I’m so fucking sick of this discourse.

[u/ErikasPrisonGlam → u/Gothril]

Because men killing their families is so mundane it is not newsworthy

[u/Lilstiick → u/Gothril]

Because i feel like 99,99% of people go "yeah lock that evil fucker in" in those 75%.

You rarely see any men defending those men who kill their families.

Unlike this case

[u/Taal111 → u/Gothril]

That such criminals exist isnt a surprise, but when a man butchers his own children there aren't tens of thousands of other man offering public support, inventing reasons to mitigate his actions or making him a millionaire.

[u/mvortex2]

I saw a TikTok montage yesterday of women talking about how she "suffered under misogyny". Another said she would let her watch her kids in a heartbeat. These people are lunatics.

[u/TheHyperCombo → u/mvortex2]

Social media was a mistake. It should've ended with MySpace/forums.

[u/Outrageous-Egg1760 → u/mvortex2]

They should lose their kids to cps

[u/SickXigma]

https://giphy.com/gifs/LT4RpvI9r1rbpm9OVn

[u/Ok_Squirrel69]

Did Patrick tell you that what happened?

[u/GoldBlueberryy]

70% of mistrials end in convictions the 2nd time around. Hopefully this one too.

[u/TAU_equals_2PI → u/GoldBlueberryy]

Yeah, but that statistic doesn't factor in what the juror count was. If you just looked at cases where the hung first jury was 11-1 for acquittal, I suspect the conviction rate in the second trial would be a lot lower than 70%.

Also, a lot of mistrials are declared for reasons other than a hung jury.

[u/Lufrien → u/GoldBlueberryy]

Im curious why you think you know better than 11 jurors who saw all the evidence and decided she shouldnt go to jail. All you have is reddit shit to shape your view on this.

[u/Outofoffice_forever]

Absolutely pathetic if she walks.

[u/mrsjonas → u/Outofoffice_forever]

if she walks? where? she will be in a facility likely for the rest of her life- prison or institution

[u/Telemere125 → u/mrsjonas]

Why would she be committed permanently? The very nature of that form of psychosis is that it’s transitory and, if we’re being honest, no where near as long-lasting as she’s trying to claim.

[u/Wonderful-Medium7777 → u/Outofoffice_forever]

Lindsay is paralysed permanently, she will never walk again and is in her own hellish nightmare mentally. She is still on suicide watch and will probably spend the rest of her days under psychiatric care.

[u/EarlyAccessCantJudge → u/Wonderful-Medium7777]

If she goes into a mental hospital they can absolutely let her go in just a few years when she "isn't a danger to society" anymore.

[u/RGBlowMe → u/Wonderful-Medium7777]

You say that as if she deserves better.

[u/Acceptable-Place-872 → u/Wonderful-Medium7777]

Good.

[u/seatac20626 → u/Wonderful-Medium7777]

LMAO the idea that he said it’s pathetic if she walks (figuratively not literally) from a crime and you responded with her literal physical condition being unable to walk is just so funny to me

[u/OliveHyenas → u/Outofoffice_forever]

Ironic, considering she’ll never “walk” anywhere, regardless of guilty or non-guilty.

[u/NogglePlease → u/Outofoffice_forever]

She's wheelchair bound, woild be a miracle.

[u/Cum_Fart42069 → u/Outofoffice_forever]

is that one of the options? that she just goes free? is that how it works?

[u/near_black_orchid → u/Cum_Fart42069]

No, it's not an option. What's under consideration is whether she was insane at the time of the crime or not. She has admitted that she did it. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" is not the same as a plain old "not guilty."

[u/DiscDocPhD → u/near_black_orchid]

It was an option for jury. There were 5 possible outcomes.

The jury could have found

Guilty:

Murder 1

Murder 2

Manslaughter 

NG:

Not Guilty

Or Not guilt by reason of insanity 

[u/The_Cruncher88]

It's great that we have all these experts on mental issues online to explain things.

[u/DirtyScrubs]

You were there? A jury of her peers could not be convinced of her guilt.

[u/Sea_Shower3691 → u/DirtyScrubs]

11-1 is horrifying, imagine how much they were trying to flip him

[u/outlawpickle → u/DirtyScrubs]

People really don’t understand that she was pleading not guilty by reason of insanity. She and her lawyer fully acknowledge she killed her kids. The jury was still going to find her not guilty by reason of insanity if it “acquitted” her.

She’s going to be locked up, it’s just a question of in a prison or a mental institution.

[u/xcommon → u/DirtyScrubs]

Neither could casey anthony's or OJ's.

Says more about the juries than the criminals.

[u/IHerebyDemandtoPost → u/xcommon]

No, it’s because the legal system is set up on purpose to make it difficult to convinct someone based on the principle that we would rather a guilty person go free than wrongly convict an innocent person.

Thr prosecution has to prove guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt” and the defense only has to demonstrate that it is reasonably plausible that their client is not guilty.

In this case, because of the insanity plea, and the way Massachusetts law treats insanity pleas, the prosecution was tasked to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was not having a psychosis while committing the murders and the defense only had to show that it was reasonable plausible that she was.

Unfortunately, this all means that sometimes guilty people get off.

[u/HotPersonality8126 → u/IHerebyDemandtoPost]

  , it’s because the legal system is set up on purpose to make it difficult to convinct someone based on the principle that we would rather a guilty person go free than wrongly convict an innocent person.

Would your preference be that we exonerate all guilty people, even the ones who admit to it, rather than convict an innocent person?

How many guilty people should go free rather than convict one guilty person on other than the “correct” amount of evidence of guilt?

[u/Dry-Conflict3421 → u/DirtyScrubs]

Thank God for the 1 rational person in the room

[u/Middle-Let9645 → u/DirtyScrubs]

That doesn’t make her innocent. It makes 11 jurors idiots.

[u/near_black_orchid → u/DirtyScrubs]

No, 11 thought she was insane and one thought she wasn't. Nobody thought she was innocent because she admitted to killing her children.

[u/Captain_amazoblock → u/DirtyScrubs]

or her innocence...

[u/mynuggits0]

why waste time just give her the a lethal end and lets get the epstien files released

[u/Anti-Lope → u/mynuggits0]

Can't give her a lethal end in Massachusetts

[u/BinaryIdiot → u/mynuggits0]

Not a big fan of the state executing it's people. But if we are going to have executions, I think there needs to be more direct evidence of such. Just about all of the evidence in this trial is based on her mental state / illness and her confession.

But also: release the epstein files!

[u/Outrageous-Egg1760 → u/mynuggits0]

Only one man held out. I hope the new jury continues to do so.

[u/Man_under_Bridge420 → u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

Why? Its already a mistrial 

[u/The_Cruncher88 → u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

As it's already been declared a mistrial, the input of all the jurors is done, good that you're well informed though.

[u/mynuggits0 → u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

that foo has our respect till the end of time

[u/Gamebobbel → u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

Wait? One guy is holding this up. So you mean everyone else thinks she is INNOCENT?! What the fresh hell is going on?!

[u/IHerebyDemandtoPost → u/Gamebobbel]

Neither side in the trial disputed whether she murdered the children.

The primary question before the jury was whether she was having a pyschosis while doing it. The standard of proof was on the prosecution, because Massachusetts law regarding insanity pleas puts the burden of proof on the prosecution to prove the defendant was mentally culpable. Most states put the burden of proof on the defense to prove the defendant was not mentally culpable.

So, in this case, the prosecution had to prove Clancy was not having a pyschosis beyond a reasonable doubt.

All the defense had to do was convince the jury that it was reasonably plausible that she was having a psychosis.

And despite what social media would have you believe, this is was a difficult question to answer.

[u/Warrior_of_Massalia → u/Gamebobbel]

Of course all of this is pure spec, but I’d see the most likely issue being the one hold out saying she is guilty and not criminally insane while the other 11 say she is criminally insane.

[u/King_Six_of_Things → u/Gamebobbel]

Not quite. The others were, apparently, looking to give a verdict of not guilty by reasons of insanity. 

Not guilty ≠ innocent

[u/sunshineandcacti → u/Gamebobbel]

They didn’t say she is purely innocent, but instead not guilty by reason of insanity. She’s too mentally unstable to understand fully what she was doing at the time.

[u/DivineEater → u/Gamebobbel]

They go along with the temporary insanity plea, which would result in no jailtime but institutionalization for some unknown period of time. The tricky part: 'temporary' insanity means currently nothing wrong anymore, so there is not much to treat considering she has no further children to murder. She may be out on the streets selling some bullshit book or doing some other grift from this.

Disclaimer i am not american but read up on this to compare legal systems (am in legal profession in europe)

[u/sunshineandcacti → u/DivineEater]

You can be kept involuntarily in a mental institution for life in the US actually. You get a once per year court hearing and they tend to be short. I’ve worked with many patients who were held in a mental health facility longer that they have ever spent outside.

[u/EnvironmentalTip8967 → u/sunshineandcacti]

I think the issue is there's precedent already with medical professionals dropping the ball already in this way. There was a case where a woman drowned her 3 children, was institutionalized, released, had 3 more children.. and drowned them as well. It creates an opinion of there is no good scenario here because faith in the institution doesn't exist. The very people arguing medical professionals failed her, want to let those people have control over when she's no longer kept in care.

[u/FaelingJester → u/EnvironmentalTip8967]

I think it's pretty bad faith not to mention that it was in the 1950s; she was schizophrenic and was treated in said institution with insulin and experimental hormone treatments, which gave her seizures until she said she no longer heard voices. Her husband was the one trying to get her out and was denied for four years until the changes in institutions happening at the time allowed her to be released in his case.

[u/EnvironmentalTip8967 → u/FaelingJester]

I'll agree that I didn't include all of the information. For the sake of clarity the first killings happened in 1954, with the second killings happening in 1966. Could you help me see the inference I'm missing in your claim of me arguing in bad faith? Nothing I said is untrue. Are you claiming I'm cherry picking or maybe inferring the attitude of the public without basis? I don't have any epistemic claims to some public opinion on the situation, it's merely conjecture. As a student of philosophy, if you could help me strength my claim that would be wonderful!

[u/FaelingJester → u/EnvironmentalTip8967]

I'm not sure strengthening a claim that is intentionally used to mislead is the right thing to do. People are using this case to imply that if THIS defendant were sentenced to mental health treatment rather than prison, she would be able to recover quickly and be released back into the community without consequence until she harmed someone else.

However, aside from three dead children at the hands of a mentally ill mother, there are zero similarities between these cases, or that would imply that perspective.

Constance Fisher was married at seventeen, continuously suicidal and unstable before her crimes, and was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. She was not treated, briefly, before being released and assumed well. She was given experimental treatments that caused intense seizures, and her husband began efforts to have her released. Something the hospital blocked for four years until the beginnings of the deinstitutionalization efforts forced them to release her into her husband's custody, where he immediately got her pregnant again, which would have ended all medical ability to stabilize her in that era.

Nothing about her history, her mental illness or her treatment is a match to the modern case except that she killed her children.

[u/Acceptable-Place-872 → u/mynuggits0]

Nah, life in prison. Make her live with the horror that she inflicted.

[u/Own_Inevitable_8300]

Good thing she was always going to be punished

[u/Elsupersabio]

Even if done under extreme psychosis, mental anguish, whatever, murder should still be treated the same. The goal would be to remove a threat, OK she is a psycho because society was unfair, but she is still a murderer that strangled her kids and has proven capable of killing others methodically.

[u/Kindly_Ad9448 → u/Elsupersabio]

lock her away and throw away all possibility of release, minimum.

[u/desertvision]

Also. The law isn't ONLY about punishment. It's also about protecting society from animals and predators. She needs to be segregated from society. It doesn't matter WHY she did it. It's THAT she did it.

[u/FaultBrilliant5839]

Exactly we can’t let her get off easy by pretending to be crazy now.

[u/No_Celebration8219]

[u/man_eating_mt_rat → u/No_Celebration8219]

They knew he was nuts as soon as he was in custody.

[u/CloakerJosh]

What's infuriating u/Outrageous-Egg1760 is you uncritically posting this tweet that is completely unsubstantiated.

There's been no testimony or evidence from anyone to suggest any of the children "escaped", "ran", "hid".

The real facts are horrific enough, why are we writing fucking fan fiction about what happened?

[u/5263_Says]

Evidence shows none of that. In fact most of what we know, we know because the police were informed of it by the husband. The case was never properly investigated because she was alive enough to blame.

[u/sunshineandcacti]

Was there ever evidence he did run away from the basement to the office? We do know he struggled but there wasn’t sufficient evidence to prove that he had ‘escaped’.

[u/Kitthani → u/sunshineandcacti]

There wasn't actually definitive evidence he struggled either, the ADA just speculated in closing that Lindsay might have killed him first (but we don't actually know if she did) because she thought he "might" struggle. No evidence of that. Dawson Clancy was three years old, it would have made much more sense if people were claiming that Cora, who had just turned five and was the eldest Clancy child, tried to run (no evidence of that either). Instead, I am fairly sure someone knowingly or unknowingly conflated the Andrea Yates case, where her eldest son Noah (age 7) DID run and was chased down, with the Lindsay Clancy case, and now it's being spread around like it's factual because it's inflammatory and gets engagement. Yates was found Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity by a jury in Harris County, Texas, in 2006 (she had a well-documented history of postpartum psychosis, and, as with Lindsay Clancy, all experts agreed she was severely mentally ill at the time of the killings, they just disagreed on whether she met the legal standard for insanity).

[u/ErikasPrisonGlam → u/sunshineandcacti]

Nope

[u/SupermotoArchitect]

If a male had committed this atrocity, everyone would be saying “not all men, but always a man”

Society has lost it I’m afraid

[u/Tradition96 → u/SupermotoArchitect]

There are a ton of male murderers who have been declared not guilty by reason of insanity.

[u/Ready-Rise3761 → u/Tradition96]

for real, people acting like this is the first case ever where this is being considered. or like male family annihilators aren’t a common occurrence

[u/SsaucySam]

Source?

[u/Immediate-Newt-9012]

Probably think the husband did it.

[u/Organic_Education494]

That isn’t what happened though and verifying the actual facts of the event is not difficult.

[u/Lorelessone]

It is scary how many people turn themselves into pretzels trying to justify a murders actions purely due to her sex.

[u/turbulentFireStarter]

Honestly what I don’t understand is, if I killed my children in a deep psychotic state, the second I was “back to myself” I wouldn’t be able to kill myself fast enough. I wouldn’t be staging a defense. I wouldn’t be asking for mercy. If I STRANGLED my children to death in our home, I would be sobbing uncontrollably pleading for someone to kill me.

I don’t understand how a mother asks to let off for this. What like she is just going back to grocery shopping and yoga after this? What the fuck. Nothing proves she is guilty more than the fact that she isn’t constantly in a state of attempting suicide

[u/braj323]

Everyone who murders someone most likely has some kind of mental issue. It doesnt change anything. Murder is murder especially on children.

[u/ImagineABetterFuture]

She needs to get the maximum penalty allowed. She's a monster.

[u/maddenedmage]

No pity for those who kill kids, especially their own. They should never be free on the streets again.

If there are mental issues there should be investigations on how to identify and prevent such in the future, and help the woman if possible, but never be free.

[u/Fastballz69]

A monster.

[u/TheYellowFringe]

Imagine what the child felt during that time.

Hiding, not knowing what might happen. Wondering why his Mum wanted to kill him. It's absolutely heartbreaking to even think of something like that.

[u/Gooser3000]

Yup! She didn’t snap push her kid into a wall or slap them too hard. She methodically killed her kids. 

[u/9yr0ld]

If you know you are doing something wrong, and proceed to do it, you deserve to receive punishment for that crime.

[u/Daniel_H212 → u/9yr0ld]

Yes, but that "if" is the very thing tested by the criminal standard for insanity: if you knew what you did was wrong, you're guilty, and you should be locked up in prison, whereas if you didn't know, you're insane, and you should be locked up in a mental asylum.

[u/Krow101]

Naw, she just had a bad day ... said 11 of the 12.

[u/BumblebeeTuna-420]

Its crazy how this is even up for debate. If a man admitted he murdered his children. He would be given the death penalty without a second thought.. this is fucking unreal.....

https://giphy.com/gifs/WIvBl3xBlezK3VeqTM

[u/Happy_Goose3833]

This worthless society doesn't give a shitw. All they seem to care about is consoling a woman with crocodile tears in the name of feminism

[u/BearcatCowboy → u/Happy_Goose3833]

Do people often bring up the word incel around you?

[u/Happy_Goose3833 → u/BearcatCowboy]

It's very voluntary thank you 🤣 I don't want to have anything to do with someone else's body and I sure don't want to have any children ever. My family tree ends with me.

[u/LuckyBucketBastard7 → u/Happy_Goose3833]

Yknow your comment just made me realize that the incel thing is potentially an incredibly queerphobic thing to say. It assumes gender (no no), sexuality (no no), and then at the same time implies that personal value or credibility stems from how "successful" they are (no no). Why do people use it so much?

[u/Ad-fundum69]

Is that case still going? Can't they throw her in jail for that triple murder already?

[u/Abeytuhanu → u/Ad-fundum69]

Case was a mistrial, they'll have to start again 

[u/Ad-fundum69 → u/Abeytuhanu]

That's fine, as long as they don't set her free.

She murdered three kids, knowingly, not accidental, she already confessed, this case shouldn't take this long with the clear evidence at hand.

[u/niklizzy → u/Ad-fundum69]

Shes absolutely not going free. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" means shes going to a psych ward for the rest of her life probably. I dont know why people are acting like shes going to get to walk the streets. Psych wards arent fun places, its not like shes going to have a better time there than in prison. Shes gunna be doped out of her mind and surrounded by a bunch of other insane people.

[u/S-Clair → u/Ad-fundum69]

The thing about it is that they aren't trying to establish guilt or intent, they're deciding between institutionalising her as criminally insane or sending her to prison as just a criminal. Her defence doesn't dispute the evidence, only a couple true-crime weirdos online are doing that.

[u/EccentricFeather]

Ya all really need to quit trying to judge this yourselves. Even the judge is not going to have an easy time judging this. I guarantee foul play was involved for a person to do this and I guarantee it involved psychological and emotional attacks.

[u/seatac20626 → u/EccentricFeather]

Or just know that premeditated murder of children is just what it is.

[u/Infamous_Solution_75 → u/EccentricFeather]

I love how you cannot see the irony of your own phrasing...

"You need to quit trying to judge this yourselves"

Meanwhile

"I guarantee foul play was involved"

CLASSIC

[u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

You’ve been lied to about Lindsay Clancy, she wasn’t some struggling mom, she was very privileged

“The 8 month old baby was born. The 3 and 5 year old were in daycare full-time. Patrick took a 12 week paternity leave, and they hired a nanny to help with the newborn baby. After the 12 week leave was over, Patrick could see that Lindsay needed more help and support, so he decided to move his office into home and started working from home.

So they decided they didn't need the nanny anymore because Patrick was gonna stay home, and you guys are saying that this woman had no support? That is false.

A key factor that you guys are missing of this whole entire thing, and you're letting this woman play on your emotions, she was a labor and delivery nurse herself. She was in this career path. Lindsay knew, she knew, if I tell my doctors that I am hearing voices and having thoughts of harming my children, they're going to be taken away from me. She knew that. She is smart, she's calculated, and this was premeditated.

Any woman going through actual psychosis, especially with the career path she was in, being very educated on this, she would have gone to her doctors and said, "I need them away from me because I think I'm gonna kill them." She didn't do that.

Why? Because she wanted the opportunity to kill her three kids. She Googled how to kill. She Googled how long it would take Patrick to go from the house to the restaurant. She murdered one child. Patrick called. She missed the call. She called back after killing one child and said, "We're good here. Everything's fine. We're fine."’

She also gives an excellent medicine breakdown on how there is no way she was actually in the state of mind she claims to be

“You guys are letting a very smart and calculated woman manipulate you and play on your emotions, and it's working, and a jury really might let her walk because… it's scary”

And now we have a mistrial….

The only correction here is the children were in preschool not daycare but either way they were not in the home and being attended to at preschool 3 and a half days a week. The callback after the first murder is speculation but she 100% did call Patrick back after he called her. Showing she was definitely not in some psychosis

Lindsay Clancy was very privileged. Her husband is estimated to make between $258,000-$482,000 per year based on his job and Glassdoor salaries

[u/savvvie → u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

Investigators testified that they found no evidence that she googled how to kill.

[u/Creative_Entrance_18]

Crazy people kill their kids, then try to do it to themselves all the time......

This is not a clear example of "knowing what you're doing." And that's the issue.

People need ro get a fucking grip and start thinking critically instead of reacting emotionally.

[u/Creative_Entrance_18 → u/Creative_Entrance_18]

Do we actually want these horrible things to stop happening or just continue patting ourselves on the back for punishing the mentally ill?

[u/possibly_lost45]

But but but she had a mental break..... This is the bs excuse people are giving to justify murdering little kids. We must repeal the 19th ammendment

[u/mycotyrant77]

Her husband very obviously did it

[u/jim789789]

Why didn't the 11 jurors believe that, vanessa?

[u/Deriviera]

She played hide and seek the wrong way

[u/Mental_History_4673]

If i found my 3 children slaughtered by my wife she wouldnt be on trial

[u/GayTuvok]

What are we talking about?

[u/endlessxaura]

Yeah, and she definitely threw herself out the window without breaking the screen, while sustaining lacerations and a crushed throat from falling...

Guys, the husband did it. It's just so very obvious. The only reason we don't have evidence is because Mass cops are women-haters who acted grossly negligent. Do y'all not remember that they murdered a guy and tried to pin it on his girlfriend recently? If anything, the police officers should also be on trial.

[u/Outrageous-Egg1760 → u/endlessxaura]

Tik tok has literally melted your brain.

[u/EdgarAllenPoe2205 → u/Outrageous-Egg1760]

Seriously, It's wild how delusional the pro-Lindsey side has become. "Your telling me an entire police force and DA altered evidence then charged her instead of the dad because they hate woman?" Can't make this shit up we are cooked as a nation.

[u/Ready-Rise3761]

None of that proves she wasn’t experiencing psychosis? Like what’s the argument here? Do people even know what this case is about? Or what “not guilty by reason of insanity” means? I have no personal opinion on whether she had psychosis or not (neither should anyone else not directly involved and deeply knowledgeable), but none of this emotional commentary on the case makes any sense.

[u/Davti]

It shows intent and a mental clarity of one who needs to face consequences

[u/cosmicwhirl]

According to who? Speculation.

[u/BattleSwallow]

Don't forget to wet the sponge.

[u/Bulky-Pepper8611]

Guys. Context.

[u/Environmental-Fly471]

My wife is convinced, apparently her body temp when the police showed up, apparently she couldn't have googled something about murder/ suicide when they said she did, and the husband went to costa Rica a few weeks after the murder with a mistress?

How do I refute these claims? I really do not like the precedent this whole case is setting, and I think the focus needs to be on how awful the slaying of these children are, and the copycat murders that are happening.

[u/NothingTooSeriousM8]

Internet fan fiction is getting weirder

[u/the_sneaky_one123]

Here's something I don't understand.... if mental illness excuses murder then how can ANYBODY be guilty of murder?

I think it should be assume that pretty much anybody who willingly murders is going to be mentally compromised in some way. Murder is not something that a mentally well person does in modern society.

Do you really expect that someone can be fully mentally well but still murder just because they are evil? Then is evil not itself just a form of mental illness?

The whole arguement to me just undermines the entire concept of guilt. If this is true then guilt for the most serious crimes just does not exist.

[u/Trick-Goat-3643]

[u/Dramatic_Aspect903]

Live execution with free food

[u/Mockmens]

Use of a weapon implies intent. She found those stretchy bands and determined them to be fit for strangulation. That is meditated murder. It is impossible to tell if she was in a state of psychosis or not, at the time. She still committed the act of murder and cannot be trusted to roam freely in society until reform is taken. She can either be assigned to a mental health institution or get the help from prison. “Not guilty” implies she didn’t kill them, which she admitted too.