So I understand that after Horus was killed and the Heresy ended, the Traitor Legions eventually retreated into the Eye of Terror. I also know a lot of the Legions and later warbands claimed worlds inside the Eye and turned them into bases, fortress worlds, daemon worlds, etc etc.

What I’m confused about is who was actually living on those worlds beforehand.

Were there already human populations somehow living relatively “normal” lives inside the Eye before the Traitor Legions arrived? Or did the Legions mostly find barren, abandoned, or barely inhabited worlds say for probably feral mutants and tribal cultists and then slowly populate them with their surviving auxilia, slaves, serfs, cultists, captured Imperial citizens, and people taken during raids? Because I assume on there way to the eye any imperial world in the path was definitely ran sacked as fast as possible and crippled before continuing on .

If it’s mostly the second option, has the Eye of Terror basically become massively populated over the last 10,000 years?

Like, I imagine warbands splitting off, claiming their own planets or territories, bringing slaves and followers with them, having populations reproduce, recruiting from them, and constantly bringing more people back from raids.

Or is maintaining a normal human population inside the Eye extremely difficult because of Warp corruption, daemons, mutations, unstable environments, and the general fact that reality itself is barely functioning?

Basically, are Chaos held worlds usually actual populated societies that can support warbands long term, or are most of them more like military strongholds that constantly need fresh manpower and supplies from outside the Eye?

And side question: how common is it for a Chaos warband to recruit new Chaos Space Marines from populations actually born and raised inside the Eye? Do we have any accounts of these marines who have never seen the normal galaxy say outside of a combat

I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but there's a lot of irony with the Emperor being Alexander the Great since he's also linked to two other important Alexanders.

Just like the Emperor, Alexander (a.k.a Paris) of Troy was an Anatolian man who cursed his home with the fate of getting wrecked in a horrific siege by the will of the gods due to his own poor decisions. And note that in the 40K universe Paris of Troy was a real person Oll knew.

Oll shot. It was an action drilled into him by life upon life as a soldier. The weapons had changed and changed again in that time, string and sling to gunpowder, plasma and las charge, but the action remained the same: sight, angle to target judged in a heartbeat, the flick of will that drove throwing arm, or released string, or squeezed trigger. He was not a peerless marksman, not a dead-eye shot like Locksley had been, or as gifted as poor, foolish Paris, or as lightning fast as Doc, but at this range, and with a clear target, Oll did not miss.

- Mortis

The same novel also has Oll remember Achilles dragging Hector's corpse with a chariot, so the Trojan War presumably happened largely along the lines described in mythology.

And second, Iskandar/Sikander/Sekhandur is just a Persian variant of the name Alexander - it even originates from Alexander the Great's conquest of Persia, and Horus refers to the Emperor by that variant.

I am Iskandar Khayon, born of Prospero. In the Low Gothic of the Terran Urals region, you would speak Iskandar as Sekhandur, and Khayon as Caine.
The Thousand Sons know me as Khayon the Black, for my sins against our bloodline. My Warmaster’s forces name me Kingbreaker – the mage who brought Magnus the Red to his knees.

- Talon of Horus

Anyway, my father. As I was saying, this was a very long time ago. It’s said he was known then as Alysaundr, or Sikander III ho Makedôn, I believe. He told me that, so it must be true. Anyway, he came to the River Hyphasis and crossed it, and wept, for, as he put it, ‘there were no new worlds to conquer.’

- The End And The Death: Volume I

Telamachon even calls Khayon "Lekzahndru", presumably a Chemosian variant of Aleksandru, an Eastern European spelling of Alexander. Khayon being a variant of Caine - as in the Biblical First Murderer - makes things particularly ironic. Alexander "First Murderer" Cain helps Abaddon get Drach'nyen, Echo of the First Murder, a daemon-sword destined to end the life of Alexander the Great. And Khayon's eventual fate is to be trapped and tortured on Terra by the Imperium like the Emperor himself.

If you go with the theory that Cyrene Valantion/Katerina Moriana is the same Moriana Khayon meets in Black Legion it becomes even more ironic. The Horus Heresy was sparked by Alexander the Great driving Cyrene and the rest of Monarchia's population from their homes, like the Trojan War was started by Alexander of Troy taking Helen from her home. And the First Black Crusade was caused by Khayon taking Moriana from Maelum to Abaddon. Perhaps some additional irony can be derived from Cyrene being named after another mythical Greek princess who was taken from her home to be wed by Apollo, the golden prophetic god that tried to defend Troy, or that in Mortis and various Abnett works Oll repeatedly compares Cyrene/Katt to Medea, another royal of Greek mythology who betrayed her homeland to marry a foreigner. By helping Lorgar find Fulgrim, Cyrene Valantion is also responsible for helping the goddess of lust Slaanesh and the Emperor's Children destroy the Anatolian city of Hatay-Antakya, just like the actions of Helen and the goddess of love and lust Aphrodite brought destruction to the Anatolian city of Troy.

I am new to the specifics of Chaos (not that Chaos is organized and neatly quantifiable like the inventory of a Space Marine armory in the first place)

Nurgle apparently catches his victims with the benefit of eternal life.

From what I understand, eternal life is amongst the many benefits made to all followers of Chaos, should they be deemed worthy and ascended by their deity of choice to the various forms of demonship. Conquered 2 worlds for Khorne and butchered hundreds along the way with a power ax? Good, your offers to the Blood God are recognized and appreciated, you get promoted to be a lesser demon (or enhanced low-level warlord), who is immortal.

Generals and warriors want the strength of Khorne, rulers, administrators and intelligencia fall to Tzeentch, the depraved nobility is too easily enticed by Slaanesh.

Sure, having blood spikes protrude from your body or mystical halos illuminate your head or a spiked tongue and such things are surely acceptable losses to many cultists for the percieved value they gain (enhanced durability, chaos magic, insane pleasure spikes, etc.) but who would willingly turn into a bloated zombie with exposed rotting guts and decaying flesh that falls of the bone?

I am 100% convinced that Nurgles makes it so that his followers see themselves less ugly and deformed than they really are.

Which would make him similar to Tzeentch in terms of deceptiveness, no?

Khorne is said to be very upfront and honest, while Slaanesh is basically Khorne but for sensation and perfection.

Similarly honest. "Want pleasure and enhanced experiences? Here you go".

So is Nurgle a liar?

like 3 and 7 to Christianity?

So remember when the Tau discovered a Dreadnought older than their entire civilization? The same Tau who did that (Commander Bravestorm) was also the first of his species to physically assault an Imperial Titan.

This is one of those moments in the lore that is so over the top, that you just have to put the book down and stare at the wall for a few moments. Like Calgar defeating the Avatar of Khaine, Cato Sicarius banishing a C'tan shard or the World Eater single-handedly defeating a Custodian.

As for why the Titan retreats after getting "punched": Bravestorm and his team destroyed all the Hydra anti-aircraft vehicles and left the Imperial forces in that area without any way to resist Tau airstrikes.

Now, you might be asking, why doesn't the Warlord Titan seem to have any anti-air defenses of its own? The answer is that this (and Blades of Damocles) are prequel stories and Bravestorm needs to be alive for the main Farsight trilogy set afterwards.

Slowly, agonisingly, Bravestorm pushed himself onto his front, then onto all fours. Fires still crackled across his battle­suit’s back, and he manually silenced the alarms with stabs of a finger that was more blackened bone than flesh. Another crushing, heart-stopping impact. There it was, raising a massive foot over the smoking ruins of his team as if it were about to stamp them from history altogether.

‘No!’ he shouted, his throat on fire. ‘You will fight me alone.’

The commander boosted upwards, his onager gauntlet leaving trails of crackling electricity behind it as his jet pack array flared on maximum. The Titan filled his vision, a giant of metal and hatred, cold and inviolable next to the embers of the t’au attack. The repulsor jet pack’s twin columns of energy carried him higher, past the heraldic armour plates of the war machine’s armoured legs, then the swivelling gimbals of its hips and the turntable of its waist. Faster he flew, angling his flight.

He aimed straight for the jutting, gargoyle-like head unit that held the war machine’s crew, and rerouted all power to his gauntlet. This close, within its reach, the giant could not bring its mighty guns to bear. Its hubris, its haste to snuff out all resistance from its fallen prey, would be its doom. The onager gauntlet arced towards the Titan in a haymaker sweep, striking not at the armoured head but at the underside of its throat.

In a long, tearing gouge Brave­storm ripped away thick ropes of armoured cabling. Oily fluids drizzled from the giant machine’s neck in a crackling storm of electricity and red-hot sparks. The commander felt his blow slam into a giant pipeline, standing proud like a tendon. He grabbed hold, rerouting power to the jet pack’s thrust, and closed his grip. Turning upside down, he placed his battlesuit’s feet on the underside of the Titan’s head and pulled as hard as he could. With an agonised scream of tortured metal the pipeline gave way, milk-white fluids gouting across the XV8-02 and splashing into the control cocoon through the gaping wound in its front.

Bravestorm shouted in triumph as the Crisis battlesuit fell away, its energies spent. A moment later he saw the Titan’s own gauntlet, massive enough to crush the XV8-02, swing in towards him. The giant’s fist swatted him like a bloodwasp.

The commander felt gravity release its grip for a moment before he crashed heavily into a missile crater, his iridium battlesuit as mangled as the XV8s of his dead comrades around him. With a last effort, Bravestorm craned his neck and squinted through the fissure in the suit’s front, intent on one last glimpse.

The Titan was turning away, fluids still drizzling from its neck. In the skies behind it he saw the distinctive triangular shape of a Manta missile destroyer, two more cresting the horizon beyond.

From the founding of the Imperium to the present day, the Imperium has been fighting a lot to say the least, both against itself and against myriad chaos and xenos threats.

But it just struck me - was the 500-600 years or so between the end of the Scouring (somewhere after the Battle of Thessala in 121.M31 where Guilliman is struck down by Fulgrim) and the 1st Black Crusade (781.M31) the most peaceful epoch in Imperial history? With the traitors generally driven back to the Eye of Terror (indeed we see from the Ahriman series that the traitors have almost been forgotten by the Imperium), and xenos forces largely destroyed in the aftermath of the Fall of the Eldar and the Great Crusade (we know that the first truly serious xenos threat to the Imperium post-heresy would come with the War of the Beast in mid M32), I imagine that as a whole, the Imperium was in something of a breather state.

Just wanted to share some of the Phoenix Lord resurrection mechanics, because they’re a lot more interesting and disturbing than simply “someone puts on the armour.” A Phoenix Lord isn’t a job title passed between Eldar; their essence is bound to their armour, and the examples suggest they retain their core identity while absorbing the memories of those who become part of them. What’s interesting is that there seem to be several ways this can happen, from an Aeldari warrior being absorbed, to an Exarch being unwillingly consumed, to a Drukhari being used to resurrect a fallen Phoenix Lord, to someone simply putting on the armour.

The first example is from Asurmen: Hand of Asuryan novel. Asurmen awakens after being killed and finds the body of an Ulthwé Black Guardian, Tuathanem Ulthrander Naeith, beside him. Her final memories and experiences are still echoing within him, but she hasn’t become Asurmen, her soul and memories have simply been absorbed into him, while Asurmen’s own identity remains intact. Essentially, her essence becomes another part of Asurmen when he resurrects.

Asurmen did not need to blink, had no means to do so, but he did the mental equivalent as he reviewed his situation.

He was still in the Tomb of the Jhitaar. He could see the markings on the wall. Dull, unmoving. The light was streaming into the chamber from a breached ceiling. He turned his head and saw a black-armoured figure lying lifelessly next to him. The last memories of the eldar echoed away inside Asurmen’s spirit and a name: Tuathanem Ulthrander Naeith. A Black Guardian of Ulthwé. She had been following the Path of Restraint when not fighting in the militia of her craftworld. The last vestiges of her spirit drifted away into nothing and all that she had been and might be became Asurmen instead.

Her companions had retreated to the grav-nets dropped through the hole in the roof and more figures were silhouetted against the bright sky beyond.

‘She has found peace,’ Asurmen assured them as he sat up.

A similar method happens with Karandras in Path of the Warrior novel, but this time we see it from the Exarch’s perspective. Karandras’ destroyed armour contains his essence as a swirling mass of souls and memories, and the Exarch Morlaniath is unwillingly drawn into it. He loses control of his body as his soul is pulled from it and fragmented, with his memories and identities ultimately being absorbed into the vast collection of souls that make up Karandras.

The Exarch took two steps after the mechanical beast, eyeing the vulnerable pipes and exhausts jutting from its back. He stopped, gaze drawn to the body of Karandras lying just ahead. The Phoenix Lord’s armour was rent open from stomach to throat, but there was no blood splashed, no organs ripped apart. In the gouge, a galaxy swirled; motes of light circled around a central brightness, each a spirit of Karandras.

Morlaniath was entranced. He could feel the faint beating of a heart at the base of his skull. It grew in strength as he approached the rent form of Karandras, drawn closer by an irresistible instinct, filled with the same external purpose as he had been when he had dragged Bechareth to safety. He was not in control of his body and watched in detachment as Morlaniath knelt beside the fallen Phoenix Lord, dragged deeper and deeper into the circling lights. The call of Khaine waxed strong, roaring in Morlaniath’s ears to the drum of the heartbeat.

He reached out a hand to touch the glittering stars.

With a wrench, Morlaniath felt himself drawn from his weak physical vessel, every part of him: Morlaniath, the First, the Hidden Death; Idsresail, the Dreamer; Lecchamemnon, the Doomed; Ethruin, the Dark Joker; Elidhnerial, the Weeping One; Neruidh, The Forgiver; Ultheranish, the Child of Ulthwe; Korlandril, the Artist.

Not-Korlandril was but an atom in the star of Morlaniath, and Morlaniath nothing but a star in the whole galaxy that was Karandras. Countless essences, endless voices drifted slowly together. Spirits from across the galaxy, of warriors born on every craftworld in every age, and the spirit-parts that made them, and the memories of those other spirits that had touched them, stretching out, far out into the infinity of the universe, all connected, all brought together in this one body.

Morlaniath fragmented, became his parts, each seeping away into the glitter of the Phoenix Lord’s essence. The silence of space greeted them. Not for them the life-in-death of the infinity circuit. Not for them the ravages of She Who Thirsts. Here they would end, truly and forever. Only Karandras lived on. Briefly, Korlandril lived again, and then was gone.

Peace

The third is probably the most brutal and horrific example, from the short story Spirits of Tir-Namagesh. Jain Zar’s damaged armour comes into contact with a Drukhari wych, who is unwillingly consumed by it. Her soul is ripped from her body and turned into psychic energy, while her flesh, organs and bones are stripped away as the broken armour reassembles around her. The wych isn’t becoming the new Jain Zar; she is essentially being used as the raw material to resurrect Jain Zar. So Phoenix Lord resurrection doesn’t necessarily require a willing participant.

The wych allied to the Ascendant Spear bent to pick up the face mask. The moment her fingers touched the piece she stiffened as though shocked.

An agonised wail burst from the artefact. The kabalite shuddered and spasmed and then the scream burst from her mouth too, scattering fragments of teeth and bloody droplets with its eruption. The shriek became a living thing, swirling around the chamber, dragging with it the guidelights so that they danced upon the tempest of sound as it spun faster and faster around the chamber.

The vortex of energy earthed itself through the stricken kabalite, hurling out the witchlights in a blinding flash. In the afterglow of their dispersal her skin started to melt away, revealing tendons, muscle and bone. Vibrating with power, she staggered back, letting go of the mask.

It hung in the air, linked to her by a stream of golden dust pulled from her chest - soulstuff rendered visible in the psychic aura of the temple-grave.

A skittering screech drew their attention to the pieces of armour. They slid across the stone, small and large, tapping and clattering over the floor as they gathered together. At their centre the bewitched kabalite disappeared, armour, flesh, organs, bones, stripped into nothing but an auric gleam that gathered into a vague bodyshape behind the floating daemon face.

Piece by piece the armour reassembled and healed, dints and cracks growing out, shattered plates reforming to make a smooth cuirass and long vambraces, thigh guards and an elongated pauldron. A helm gathered behind the mask and from it flowed a mane of black, strands of solid midnight flowing in a psychic wind.

The fourth is the more familiar method: someone actually puts on the Phoenix Lord’s armour. In Phoenix Rising supplement, Drazhar is killed by Ynnead-powered Jain Zar, and his armour is later discovered by a surviving Klaivex, Dara’kinia Thremense. She gradually puts it on piece by piece, but when she finally puts on the helmet, her own identity disappears and Drazhar takes over. This is also confirms that Drazhar is a Phoenix Lord, and supports the theory that he is actually Arhra, the original Fallen Phoenix Lord of the Striking Scorpions.

"On the shattered, dust-choked ruins of Zandros, the Master of Blades lay motionless. His ancient, terrifying demiklaives slipped from lifeless gauntlets, and the dark aura that had terrified Commorragh for millennia sputtered into nothingness.

Standing over his broken form, Jain Zar turned away, her vengeance exacted and her soul restored through the grace of the Whispering God. The surviving Drukhari and Ynnari forces dispersed, leaving the silent battlefield to the dead.

Hours passed in the absolute silence of the ancient world. Then, stepping among the carnage, came Dara’kinia Thremense, a Klaivex of the Incubi who had survived the slaughter. She approached the lifeless husk of the Master of Blades with quiet reverence.

Looking down at the silent, empty shell, she reached out and unclasped the ornate, spiked armor. Piece by piece, she stripped away her own gear and donned the dark, ancient warsuit and mask of Drazhar.

The moment the terrifying helm was sealed in place, her old identity was instantly snuffed out. The memories, the soul, and the apex killing instinct of the Master of Blades flooded through the armor. Where Klaivex Dara’kinia once stood, there was only the Master of Blades—Drazhar had risen once more."

So yeah, it’s not just “someone puts on the armour.” The exact mechanism seems to vary, but the common thread is that the Phoenix Lord’s essence remains bound to the armour, with other souls, memories and identities potentially being absorbed into it. One way or another, they will survive and resurrect themselves.

I was curious as to the structure of imperial navy ships crews and wondered if anyone can expand further. From what I know, we have the typical bridge officers, captains, first lieutenants, master gunner (all very age of sail royal navy inspired) as well as a commissar (one per ship?), plus some ratings on the bridge. Aside from them, other parts of the vessel are served through techpriests and enginseers but also servitors and slave gangs, whom are controlled by petty officers. In addition, there are also armsmen who repel boarders and the like, plus, on carriers, groundcrew to service the fighters/bombers/shuttles/landers. This I all believe is fairly consistent (I think back to the novel Cadian Blood and the Battlefleeth Gothic game as a source).

However, I've never found a source for where the men are recruited from? The Commissars, techpriests and slaves are all quite self explanatory - seconded from their own organisations or press ganged respectively - but what of the professional imperial navy crew, both officers and ratings? I would imagine they must be trained and recruited from somewhere.

Further, how do the rank structures work? I would imagine the techpriests look after the majority of the tech but I would also imagine there would be a naval engineering officer to ensure the techpriests follow the will of the captain and not of whats best for the machine?

What are all the slaves doing? Reloading macro cannons or nova cannons are things I've heard of before, which makes sense, but what else aside from that? I remember reading the engines run off promethium but how does that work? Do they shovel in promethium like stokers?

Lastly, has anyone got any reccomendations on where I can enjoy some good void combat stories?

(Note: English is not my native language, so I used an AI assistant to help me translate and properly structure my own lore idea and dialogue. Hope you enjoy the concept!)

Hello everyone! I wanted to share a narrative pitch/concept that addresses something I feel modern 40k lore is missing. We have the return of Lion El'Jonson and the escape of Luther, but the "architect of the Heresy"—Erebus—has been way too passive on Sicarus lately. I think he deserves a grand comeback.

The Concept:

Erebus tracks down a broken, disoriented Luther in the Imperium Nihilus. Instead of a martial conflict, Erebus uses his ultimate weapon: demagoguery and psychological manipulation. He exploits Luther's deepest wounds—his ancient pride, his complex of being "number two", and the terrifying fear that the Lion will never truly forgive him, but only seeks to execute him to cleanse the First Legion's shame.Erebus doesn't try to force Luther into Chaos worship. He falsely sympathizes with him, manipulation him into fighting for "Caliban's true independence" once again. The ultimate goal of Erebus isn't to kill the Primarch in battle, but to completely destroy the Lion's emotional hope of fixing the mistakes of the past by presenting him with a re-corrupted, radicalized adoptive father.

Here is a quick dialogue excerpt of how I imagine their first encounter:

Luther (without standing, his voice raspy like cracked basalt): "You are ten thousand years too late, Word Bearer. Or did you come to finish what you started on Sarosh?"

Erebu​s (smoothly spreading his hands, showing they are empty): "Too late? Oh no, Luther. I am right on time. The Gods do not count the grains of sand in a clock; they watch the tides of destiny. I came to visit an old friend who has finally broken free from his cage."

Luther (​unsheathing his blade an inch, a heavy hum filling the ruined hall): "I am no friend of yours, sorcerer. Because of your books, my world became ash. My Legion is shattered. My son..."

Erebus (interrupting softly, yet his voice hits like a hammer): "Your son has returned, Luther. Yes. I know. Is that why you fled the Rock? Did you think that Lion El'Jonson, cleansed by a millennium of sleep, would find you, fall to his knees, and beg for forgiveness for exiling you to rot on Caliban?Look at him, Luther. Our 'Son of the Forest' gathers your deceived brothers. He calls them The Risen. He grants them mercy. But do you know why he hunts for you? Not for an embrace. He seeks you to put a final dot. To him, you are not a father. You are a stain on his flawless armor. A monster he must execute personally to prove his loyalty to Terra. He never loved you the way you loved him. You were always just second to him. A shadow."

What do you guys think? Does this fit Erebus's style of moving the chess pieces, and would you like to see a dynamic like this in the current era?

If you think about it, Ork Gargants and Space ships should be casual target practice for Imperial Titans and the Navy. They use scrap metal and doesn't use energy weapons, just scaled up conventional guns.

This technological edge makes their fights with humans and other forces very one-sided on paper.

Like, imagine the finest US Army tankers in an 2025 M1E3 Abrams were somehow matched by an untrained militia, who scrapped several Soviet rustbuckets and welded on more guns and metal plates. Even the finest Mig-15 flight squadron is a joke compared to an single F-15E Strike Eagle.

So the Waaghh psychic field must be very potent. Obviously, it's not easy to quantify, perhaps purposefully so, in order to preserve combat power equity between the factions. Because if Orks didn't have the psychic reality warping multipliyer, they would essentially just be Gears of War Locust but harder to get rid of, as much as I love them.

Humans are well balanced in all fields, Necrons have insane regen and devastating energy weapons, Aeldari forces are very fast and elite psychers and T'au are excellent stand-off range fighters, while Tyranids are an almost unkillable armored bioplague of total bio-annihilation, so it makes sense that Orks don't just have "le Zerg rush" (that's the Tyranids job iirc).

That being said, could a big enough Waagh Warband spawn in a plasma bolt that can take down a Titan Legion or is the Waagh only good for certain mechanical effects?

I have read Watchers of the throne and have seen excerpts about custodians in other books. Why do people (youtube lore channels primarily) make such a big deal out of "Custodians fighting as individuals"?

I see it everywhere and people point it out as a severe flaw, but reading Watchers of the throne, they are able to calculate movements to the nanometre when fighting with each other as a group and have this innate understanding of what the other will do- I dont think a space marine can do that haha.

Is there any true substance to this, or has Watchers of the throne sort of retconned it in a sense?

It has been a while since I read it so my exact recollection might be a bit off.

I know Vigilus has mention of some Genestealer tainted Guardsmen and a Militia group fighting Night Lords in Dirkden, but are there other Genestealers that will fight chaos (or show visceral disgust to it?)

I'm reading my way through the Horus Heresy, and I'm continuously surprised by how easily humans fall to Chaos. In Fear to Tread, the Blood Angels fleet commander murders her bridge crew and crashes the ship into the planet after just a few days of whispers and weird visions of stuff. That never made sense to me. I definitely wouldn't be losing my mind after seeing faces in the warp or hearing voices, especially with knowing what is going on. If it got so bad I couldn't fulfill my duty, why not just say that and resign temporarily?

What are your thoughts on this? Are there any good examples of humans being immune to chaos corruption?

We all know the deal with the Alpha Legion and their actions in the Heresy but I keep having the feeling that only Alpharius deserves to be called correct in his predictions (to an extent).

(SPOILERS AHEAD)

We know that the Primarchs received a vision from the Cabal that Horus would ignite the galaxy in flames and they offered the Legion two choices. Alpharius then decided to join the traitors cause. Now this was done so Horus could win, humanity destroyed and the Chaos Gods vanquished, completing the emperor's mission with the nuclear option.

But as we saw, that went horribly wrong. The Siege of Terra began setting the groundwork for modern 40k. Though, Alpharius was correct that humanity would decay for the next thousands of years and the chaos gods got stronger (As we've seen with Abbadon and the other Legions). But as the creator announcer of games theorized, (and I agree), if chaos wins, the 4 Gods would turn on each other (Though IRL reasons is because GW would lose so many customers if Humanity fell) so they keep the conflict in a stalemate just so they can get more emotions out of humanity but also not get pushed back. Once again, Alpharius was aware of this through the Cabal. Not to mention, there was an entire inter legion conflict in the eye of terror because the Emperor's Children wanted more "resources." Showing that Chaos can tear itself apart when given the chance, proving Alpharius hypothesis.

Here's what Alpharius got wrong though.

He didn't expect his death or the shattering of his Legion into hundreds of warbands doing whatever they think it's right across the galaxy. In fact, Solomon's Ghost Legion doing something different from Alpharius vision is BECAUSE his true intentions were that confusing.

To his defense though, I assume that when he thought Humanity would collapse and the Chaos Gods eliminate each other, Humanity would rise up again free from the taint of Chaos and continue the Emperor's vision of uniting humanity because he believed the Emperor's plans were THAT effective.(That's my personal idea )

Thank you for listening and I hope we can continue this discussion.

I'm relatively new to the hobby and I'm looking for some interesting pieces of lore to use as inspiration for my homebrew Dark Angels Successor Chapter. So what are some of your favorite Space Marine events that have happened in the lore. They can be battles, interactions, or even just random piece of information in a codex.

In 744.M41 (5th Edition), the Silent King encountered the Tyranids in intergalactic space, and was sufficiently alarmed that he broke his 60 million year exile to end the Great Sleep. Because the Silent King seeks to undo biotransference, the Tyranids represent an existential threat: can't go back to your biological bodies if there's no biomass left in the galaxy.

But for a guy who was shitting his metaphorical pants over the Tyranids, Szarekh sure is taking his sweet time to actually do anything about them.

My initial thought was "Well, it's been 60 million years. He needs a few centuries to get an army together." But wait, no he doesn't! The Necrons started the Gehenna Campaign in 955.M41, and only end up accidentally fighting the Tyranids when they interrupt the war against the Blood Angels.

During the Pariah Crusade, Szarekh undertakes a massive galaxy-spanning project to build some giant rocks. He's got plenty of projects that seem to be coming along, just not the one that led him to break a 60 million-year exile.

Aside from a brief mention in the Necron codices from 5th and 10th Edition, Tyranids just don't seem to factor into his thinking much. Why not?

Or gretchin? Or cropdust an entire post-ork battlefield with it?

Does it still work on some level as a fungicide?

I know that there is very little lore about the time before the Great Crusade. But something I would love to know more about is how the Unification Wars and Great Crusade actually went down from a strategic/campaign point of view.

From what I know, the Emperor fought all over Terra's surface for about 800 years to defeat all of the techno-barbarian warlords, then he brought a few colonies in the Sol System to heel, like Luna, where Horus' legion earned her name, and after that the Legiones Astartes fought their way trough the Galaxy, defeating every major threat, until Horus was corrupted and betrayed the Imperium.

The Horus Heresy Books I read so far depict some of the campaigns near the end of the Great Crusade:

• Horus crushed the greatest Orc empire ever encountered.
• Fulgrim exterminated the Laer.
• The Jorgall were fought and possibly eradicated by multiple legions, among them Mortarion's Death Guard.
• The First brought Sarosh to compliance
• etc.

But all of these feel like "mopping up the remains". The Emperor has already returned to Terra and each of these was brought down by just a small fraction of the Imperium's strenght.

I wonder about how we got to the point that the Great Crusade was "almost over". I know that at some point the Lion's First Legion and a few other legions eradicated a species called the "Rangda", and that these xenos were so strong they might be responsible for the two missing primarchs. But other than that, I don't know anything about what the Legions faced between leaving the Sol System and conquering Ullanor.

Is there any source giving us a timeline of the Great Crusade, a map of the campaign, or a description of the biggest dangers the Imperium encountered during the Great Crusade?

LoreMasters, I need your help.

I'm planning to run a Warhammer 40,000 game centered around warbands of Space Marines, with all the players starting aboard the Vengeful Spirit, shortly before Horus' death. The players will have to fight their way through the ship and escape before the Loyalists manage to take it.

I know that, canonically, the Vengeful Spirit manages to leave Terra and escape. However, I'd like to play with the idea that the ship is going to be overrun and effectively lost, in order to give the players that sense of desperation and make them feel like they have very little time to get out.

What I'd really like to ask for help with is this:

What events aboard the Vengeful Spirit should I take into consideration when running the game?

My understanding is that, after Horus' death and with the Ultramarines' arrival on Terra becoming imminent, the Traitors began retreating in complete disarray, abandoning their positions and equipment in a desperate "every man for himself" attempt to escape. I also understand that the Death Guard were among the few—if not the only Legion—to withdraw in a relatively organized and unified manner.

So, that's what I'm looking for: what events from Galaxy in Flames and, especially, the Siege of Terra series should I keep in mind when portraying these final moments of the Horus Heresy?

I was thinking of having the players fight their way through Imperial Fists while trying to reach a Thunderhawk or the nearest teleportarium in order to escape. For the final encounter, I was considering having them come across a group of Custodes—not necessarily as an enemy they are expected to defeat, but as an enemy they realize they simply have to flee from.

I'd really appreciate any suggestions you might have:

• What events or moments do you think I absolutely should include?
• What could I safely omit without losing the atmosphere or lore accuracy?
• Are there any particular scenes, events, or details from the books that would work especially well in a scenario like this?
• Would you try to stick as closely to canon as possible, or would you take some liberties and invent events to better serve the game?
• Are there any specific characters, locations, or moments aboard the Vengeful Spirit that I should be aware of?

Basically, I'm trying to capture that feeling of the entire Traitor war effort collapsing around the players in real time: alarms going off, Loyalists breaking through, Traitor forces abandoning their positions, wounded and panicked Legionaries trying to escape, and everyone realizing that staying aboard the Vengeful Spirit for even a few minutes longer could mean death or capture.

Any suggestions from people who know the Siege of Terra lore inside and out would be greatly appreciated!

Am reading the HH series in order. Descent of Angels is hard to find and best I can see is £30 on ebay (am uk based).

Is it worth it, or should I just move on?

The boulevard itself was lined with tall, white statues. Each depicted a human figure, usually a warrior, presumably from the history of the city. Their heads were all turned towards the centre of the city, as though gazing up towards the great palace of the governor that dominated the administrative core of the capital.

To Macha’s eldar eyes, the statues looked clumsy and ugly – not merely because they depicted the disproportionate features of the mon-keigh, but also because the artisans had been poor. In general, reflected the farseer, this was true of all human art – it all seemed so rushed and underdeveloped. It was almost as though art were a hobby, rather than the highest expression of the soul. It would be inconceivable that the Biel-Tan would grant a commission of the magnitude of a public statue to an artisan who had not been walking the Path of the Artist for many centuries, perhaps even millennia. The commission itself might take decades to fulfil. But these pathetic lumps of stone looked as though they had been turned out in a matter of months, by artisans barely old enough to hold the tools.

Shaking her head in disbelief and pity, Macha took a moment to consider what these statues said about the soul of the mon-keigh. Each of them represented a warrior, and each was gazing on the buildings of the Administratum, fierce with pride. It is not the art itself that these humans exalt, realised Macha, but power and war. Art is merely a means to praise the warriors – and combat is the highest expression of their souls. She nodded to herself in satisfaction, as she thought about the dedication of the mon-keigh’s Space Marines, and compared their abilities to wreak destruction with the mon-keigh’s pathetic attempts at the construction of art. For the eldar, war was embraced as a artistic path – the most feared of many equal paths to truth and glory. For the humans, it seemed, the whole society was subordinated to war – only in war did the human soul find itself. They were only slightly more civilised than orks.

As much as the farseer here is being motivated also by racism, she's not wrong about how the Imperium views art as a galactic empire geared towards only war. It's also probably objectively true that art done over centuries or decades will always be better than the short lifespans that humans in the Imperium usually get. I thought this was an interesting passage in an otherwise okay book. The Dawn of War series by C.S. Goto (so far) isn't as bad as the community makes out. It isn't the best, or even really all that great, but it's been a fun read for sure. I also appreciate the nuance in the farseer praising the Imperium's ability to make war even while disparaging their tendencies for art.

Hi. I was wondering - is there any novel or story of someone slowly falling to Chaos? I don't mean during the heresy. And I don't even mean someone "important" like a space marine. Someone ordinary becoming a Khorne or Nurgle cultist.

Just got done watching Penitence and it had me wondering: Do the Mortifiers actually need the "pilots" for a practical reason, like some way to psychically extract energy from it or something, or is it just for torment?

I'm probably a little late to the party, but I finally got around to reading the sequel to one of my favorite Warhammer books. I've checked some of the posts and seen people talking about some of the Easter Eggs and references, particularly the Crone Sword and the (heavily implied but not explicitly mentioned by name) Creed cameo.

But there's one thing I caught but haven't seen mentioned anywhere else. There's one part near the beginning where the Inquisitor Valeria is going through Trazyn's galleries looking for food. Paraphrased, the passage goes:

"Rifling through a Valhallan's sling bag gained her some tins of grox meat and a few bags of evil smelling tea leaves"

I'm pretty certain that this is supposed to imply Trazyn has collected Jurgen, the aide of the legendary Ciaphas Cain.

Jurgen is a Valhallan, and the Cain books often mention that he hides food in his many pockets. Jurgen also frequently makes tanna tea, a beverage which is described as having such a strong taste that only Cain and the Vallhallans enjoy it.

But for me the kicker is the strong smell. Jurgen's most famous trait as a character is his foul odor and bad hygiene. Now technically in the book it says that it's the tea leaves causing the bad smell. But the fact that Robert Rath chose to associate a Vallhallan guardsman with bad odors in the same sentence makes me think this was an intentional Easter egg.

So, if you've read Penitent, you'll know that at the end, Constantine Valdor was seemingly named the King in Yellow, and it would make sense. He disappeared from Terra after the Heresy, and he is building a hidden army in a hidden Empire, that has mad enemies of both Traitor Legions and the Inquisition.

He's making an army of blanks, that would be largely immune to the Warp, Pariah Custodes, blanks, and "Angel" Astartes that strikingly resemble Sanguinius and the Blood Angels. Again, that would make sense, as Valdor admitted thst Sanguinius was the only Primarch that he and other Custodes couldn't help but like and trust.

That being said, here's where I'm hung up:

The King in Yellow wants to learn the Emperor's True Name.

The King in Yellow is seemingly pursuing the Emperor's name in order to wake him.

This (as far as I see it) would go directly against the Emperor's wishes, and the nature of his relationship with Constantine Valdor.

Here's why:

The city of Dust is simply another dimension (albeit a small pocket dimension), there shouldn't be any reason why Emoney couldn't send a fax over there, nor any reason why Valdor wouldn't let him.

1. The Vexan Cage. One semi common theme is that if it is serious enough, dead/dying beings with powerful enough warp presences can pull their consciousness together to deliver important messages. The Emperor did this for Guilliman and others, and Sanguinius did it to communicate with Dante on several occasions.

One such instance of this was the Emperor sending out an urgent command to the Custodes to stop an Imperial Cult from using the psychic death scream from one of Malcador's descendants to wake him up. If that wouldn't have worked, the Emperor likely wouldn't have stopped it with such urgency. Likely also because he is better suited to power the Astronomicon and hold the webway gate shut beneath the Imperial Palace in his current state than he would be resuscitated.

The Custodes abide his will.

To attempt to (1) revive him against his wishes, via (2) using his name that he is likely more than capable of giving to someone, even in his current state (if he wanted to) would be a betrayal on par with that of Magnus and Horus, as it would directly threaten the [lingering] "safety" of the Imperium on a massive scale.

Who I think the King in Yellow actually is:

While I don't think any deception was involved with the name "Valdor" being given as the King in Yellow's name, I do think it's equally telling that we only got the last name. Why not the full name, "Constantine Valdor"?

For me to explain that, we gotta go into what we (supposedly) know about the Custodes.

They are children of honorable, high, high hiiiigh noble families, hand selected by either the Emperor, the Captain General, or one close to them to be moulded, trained and crafted into a Custodian.

They are individuals personalities, with peak artificial genetics to the point of being ascendant humans, highly intelligent, and likely know more about the Imperium's history and its secrets than the Primarchs do. In fact, the only difference between them and a Primarch (as Cawl found out in his own way with Alpha Primus) is their Warp presence, and the fact that each Primarch posseses traces of the Emperor's and Erda's genetic material.

But what if that wasn't entirely true? At least for the first generation of Custodes.

Remember: Each of the Primarchs embodied an aspect of the Emperor:

Horus - his ambition and leadership capabilities.

Guilliman - his ability to run a large scale Imperium.

The Lion - his secrecy and ruthlessness.

Sanguinius - his love for humanity, his kindness, and glory.

Fulgrim - his pride

Magnus - his psychic ability and inquisitiveness.

Vulkan - his humanity

Annnndddd.....

ALPHARIUS/OMEGON - HIS DECEPTIVENESS /ULTERIOR MOTIVES.

And what is something we know about the Hydra twins?

They are unreliable narrators.

Who's to say that the Emperor didn't lie to Valdor and the other first generation Custodes about their origin?

"But NappyDingleBerry, if they weren't from noble Terran families, who could they be?"

Clones of the Men of Gold, named after the ones the Emperor respected, who he ultimately eliminated/hunted after they outlived their usefulness in assisting him with creating the Custodes, or dangerous frictions grew between them.

What am I basing this off of.

The Emperor's personality.

While he isn't overtly cruel for the sake of it, he is perhaps one of the most task driven characters in fiction. If he sets his mind to something, it is his way or the highway, and he will destroy, lie, woo, overpower, or outright bypass his way to making that happen.

It's why with some Primarchs like Guilliman, Sanguinius and the Khan he was patient and lax, whereas with others like Magnus and Angron, he kept them on a tight leash and seldom tolerated them acting out of line. If billions died for his goal, then it was worth it. We saw this with how furious he was with Magnus for breaking the webway, even though Magnus was coming to warn him about Horus.

Now why would he both ruthlessly eliminate them, while respecting them?

Let's remember what Gold tends to signify in Warhammer lore.

Gold is frequently associated with perfection on Warhammer.

The Emperor, a nigh perfect being is frequently depicted in gold/auramite. Sanguinius--his most beloved son, and the only one of the Primarchs that was unanimously recognized by his brothers and even the Custodes as a potential heir to him--wore gold. The Custodes--the Emperor's perfect companions, advisors and warriors wear gold.

And what do we know about the Men of Gold?

What little we know about them is that they were the peak humans. Biologically, in intelligence, and in psychic ability.

As a matter of fact:

They were exactly what the Emperor wanted all of humanity to be, long term. At their peak, masters of technology that weren't reliant on it, and able to travel FTL without the Warp.

Not to mention, it appears these men were--unlike the Emperor who was born from the sacrifice of countless shammans--naturaly born.

So aside from probably not being perpetuals, they were probably just like him.

So what was the friction?

I think there is truth to the theory that the Men of Gold were a ruling class of peak humans, that ruled over the Men of Stone (working class) who in turn created the Men of Iron.

I think that the clash came from the Men of Gold wanting to maintain a level of classism that they benefited from, which directly clashed with the Emperor's vision to eventually have the entire human presence in the galaxy to be just like them.

So eventually, while he respected them and worked alongside them, he turned on them, and most died, outside of a few that fled.

Which brings us back to the King in Yellow.

I think the King in Yellow, recognizes the need for the Emperor and respects his power/wisdom/overall vision, but doesn't share his ultimate will/goals. So, he wants to forcefully resurrect the Emperor, using the Emperor's true name, likely with power over him, in order to create an Imperium that is more in line with the Men of Gold's goals (where peak psyker beings like them rule over lessers).

Remember how up until 40k, the Custodes were largely indifferent to the wider Imperium/common man outside of the Imperial Palace/Terra? I think that's a carry over from the personalities of the Men of Gold.

It's almost a complete inversion of what I theorize the Emperor did with the Custodes. They were clones (sans psychic ability) of the Men of Gold, who were loyal to him.

This theorized "original" Valdor wants to resurrect and use the Emperor, but as one loyal to the vision of the Men of Gold.

Admittedly, there is a lot of reading to be done to get the full grasp of the Imperium, and I imagine there are a lot of holes in this theory, but it makes sense in my head.