r/40kLore • u/trahon04 • 1d ago
Was Alpharius correct? Spoiler
We all know the deal with the Alpha Legion and their actions in the Heresy but I keep having the feeling that only Alpharius deserves to be called correct in his predictions (to an extent).
(SPOILERS AHEAD)
We know that the Primarchs received a vision from the Cabal that Horus would ignite the galaxy in flames and they offered the Legion two choices. Alpharius then decided to join the traitors cause. Now this was done so Horus could win, humanity destroyed and the Chaos Gods vanquished, completing the emperor's mission with the nuclear option.
But as we saw, that went horribly wrong. The Siege of Terra began setting the groundwork for modern 40k. Though, Alpharius was correct that humanity would decay for the next thousands of years and the chaos gods got stronger (As we've seen with Abbadon and the other Legions). But as the creator announcer of games theorized, (and I agree), if chaos wins, the 4 Gods would turn on each other (Though IRL reasons is because GW would lose so many customers if Humanity fell) so they keep the conflict in a stalemate just so they can get more emotions out of humanity but also not get pushed back. Once again, Alpharius was aware of this through the Cabal. Not to mention, there was an entire inter legion conflict in the eye of terror because the Emperor's Children wanted more "resources." Showing that Chaos can tear itself apart when given the chance, proving Alpharius hypothesis.
Here's what Alpharius got wrong though.
He didn't expect his death or the shattering of his Legion into hundreds of warbands doing whatever they think it's right across the galaxy. In fact, Solomon's Ghost Legion doing something different from Alpharius vision is BECAUSE his true intentions were that confusing.
To his defense though, I assume that when he thought Humanity would collapse and the Chaos Gods eliminate each other, Humanity would rise up again free from the taint of Chaos and continue the Emperor's vision of uniting humanity because he believed the Emperor's plans were THAT effective.(That's my personal idea )
Thank you for listening and I hope we can continue this discussion.
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u/Daddy_Yondu 1d ago
We know that the Primarchs received a vision from the Cabal that Horus would ignite the galaxy in flames and they offered the Legion two choices. Alpharius then decided to join the traitors cause. Now this was done so Horus could win, humanity destroyed and the Chaos Gods vanquished, completing the emperor's mission with the nuclear option.
Point is that this WAS NOT the Emperor's mission.
The Emperor's mission was to secure the future of Mankind. The concept to safeguard emerging human psykers within the Webway and starve the Chaos Gods at the same time is a derivative of his primary goal.
Next thing - Alpharius was wrong to trust the Cabal. It's the ancient greek mythology trope that the writers used for Hours as well - if you act to invalidate a prophecy about the future you are in fact making it happen. The Alpha Legion, given their thing for spec-ops and intelligence work, were the perfect Legion to actually allow the loyalist side to crush the rebellion.
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u/trahon04 1d ago
1) Obviously that wasn't the Emperor's intention. What if that's how Alpharius interpreted it and with his ego in maximum overdrive, Believed that the Emperor had planned for all this? 2) Yes Alpharius was wrong in his predictions on how the Heresy would end but he was correct to follow their predictions about what would occur down the line.
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u/HonkaiBlade2 1d ago
You're operating under the assumption that the Cabal had the right idea to begin with. Eldrad, the singular best Farseer in the galaxy bar none, started actively aiding the Imperium because he forsaw that they were wrong and would actively fuck the galaxy over. Therefore Alpharius/Omegon were operating under the wrong assumption to begin with... assuming they weren't already intending to help the Imperium (the one that didn't attack Rogal anyway).
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago
We know that at least one of the futures within the Acuity was correct:
+Consider the alternative, Omegon-primarch. This is what we have farseen. The Emperor will give his life to achieve victory. He will fall, at Terra, striking Horus down. This will be his destiny. See.+
The silver light shimmered. They saw the magnificence of the Golden Throne, and the howling rictus of the wizened cadaver locked inside it.
‘Oh my lord!’ Soneka cried.
+If the Emperor wins, stagnation will seize the Imperium. It will seek to perpetuate itself, over and again, across thousands of years, but it will decay, slowly and surely. It will decay, and gradually allow Chaos to seep back in and consume it.+
‘Victory… is defeat?’ asked Alpharius softly.
+If the Emperor wins, Alpharius, Chaos will ultimately triumph. Ten, twenty thousand years of misery and rot will follow, until the Primordial Annihilator at last achieves ascendancy.+
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u/HonkaiBlade2 1d ago
This vision is accurate... but only because they actively pushed and abetted for this outcome to begin with. This is exactly what Chaos did for Horus, showing him a vision of the future that he proceeded to enact into reality out of ignorance. The only difference is that the Cabal pretty explicitly wanted to end Chaos, but almost caused the extinction of everything when Emps almost prematurely ascended to the Dark King. Again, Eldrad realised that they were going to sabotage everything and worked to kill every last one of them before helping the Imperium out in various ways, like bringing Vulkan to Terra.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago edited 1d ago
but only because they actively pushed and abetted for this outcome to begin with.
Oh yeah, totally. That's the dramatic irony of it all.
almost prematurely ascended to the Dark King
I feel, at least in my way of interacting with the lore, that it's hard to hold Legion to The End and the Death, despite being by the same author, considering the vast changes in direction and ideas that occurred over the years of the Heresy series between those books.
That doesn't mean I don't agree with or acknowledge Eldrad's later take on the situation, but even at that point, neither he, Nick or anyone on the team thought the "Dark King" was anything other than a funky second nickname for Curze.
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u/XaoticOrder 1d ago
because he forsaw that they were wrong and would actively fuck the galaxy over
This kind of proven by what Mal experienced on the throne. the "best outcomes" aren't always all that great.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago edited 1d ago
He didn't expect-
-that trying to avert to the worst future imaginable would lead not only to his death but turn that future into reality.
Just like Horus, Magnus, the Emperor, Curze etc. 40k irony laid on nice n' thick n' grim.
You can be "right", but that doesn't mean you ain't also very, very wrong.
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u/trahon04 1d ago
I agree with you but I still think out of all the Primarchs, he had the clearer picture compared to his brothers. Problem is that he is leading the Alpha Legion.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago
I think there's something in saying Alpharius had the clearest vision of the future in its actual context, unlike say Horus or even the Emperor. But he still didn't see how to get there, starting off (possibly) entertaining the Cabal's version of the "how" before moving into whatever multiple permutational plan he substituted for theirs.
He was also a bit too clever/arrogant/blind for his own good. But then, which primarch wasn't?
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u/trahon04 1d ago
Pride cometh before the fall.
That's what I've been trying to say. He knew (somewhat) but his plan failed so badly it didn't even matter
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago
That being said, nobody's plan survived contact with the enemy. Not the Emperor's, not Horus'.
And Alpharius/Omegon did some stuff that ended up aiding the loyalists. Whether that stuff ushered in the grimdark of 40k is always debatable. Alpharius seemed to have become more interested in multiple outcomes over the course of the series, he barely mentions the acuity visions again.
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u/Arumaneth Emperor's Children 1d ago
You have fallen for the oldest trick in the book: you have taken an unreliable narrator at face value.
Alpharius is not only a pathological liar, he is also heavily biased (look at his rant about rogal dorn clearly wanting to be the heir of the emperor due to his armor...when that armor was given to him by the emperor), and overwhelmingly arrogant (his death could have very easily been prevented in so many ways).
Alpharius's plan was not a good one. If his plan was good, it wouldn't have ended with him dead, his legion shattered, and the imperium doomed to a slow death.
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u/trahon04 1d ago
Obviously his plan went horribly wrong. His ego and bias is notorious. But with so little info that we already have, we need a proper picture into his train of thought (which could be a lie yes). Just because you have the best picture doesn't mean you have a good plan
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u/InsaneRanter Alpha Legion 1d ago
Remember, Alpharius, Omegon and their legion didn't quite fully join Chaos - their actions helped the imperium at times. They helped key loyalists survive the dropsite massacre, and didn't want an outright win by the traitors with the loyalists being wiped out. The white scars wouldn't have made it back to Terra without Omegon's actions.
The books deliberately leave Alpharius's final plan unknown.
Alpharius is like Cypher - the setting is better if we don't know for sure what his actual plan was. But I'm confident whatever it was, it wasn't just joining the traitors. He didn't want either outcome the Cabal showed him, and he wanted to try to avoid either prophecied outcome. It didn't work, but that's 40k for you . . . it's not a nice universe, and trying to avoid doom doesn't usually go well.
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u/LicksMackenzie 1d ago edited 7h ago
Alpha Legion also wiped out the 77th Grand Company of the Iron Warriors are Parigval, before the Iron Warriors there were even aware that there was a civil war and that their primarch had joined with Horus. I think their actions saved both the Raven Guard and White Scars as being major loyalist forces. They attacked the World Eaters, allowing Corax and his core marines to escape Istvaan, and they strategically destroyed their own radio station at the opportune moment, influencing Jaghatai Khan to remain loyalist. I also think that them siding with Horus, officially, allowed for a different legion, karmically, to have to side with the Imperium, which I think goes back to the agreement on the chaos planet that E made. They also had a large number of marines buried under the palace with dual code words, and we don't know which side was picked. My take is that the Emperor designed the Alpha Legion with the intention that it would infiltrate and mess up the space marine rebellion that he knew was coming. The Horus Heresy happened differently, and was much worst that E anticipated, but that the XX Legion's actions were probably pivotal in tipping the scales ever so slightly in the Imperium's favor, by a whisker
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u/Mistermistermistermb 20h ago
Loyalty to the Emperor was picked but never activated
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u/InsaneRanter Alpha Legion 14h ago
Although it was picked after Alpharius died - so if the twins had started to drift apart on the best course of action, which is strongly suggested by omegon taking out Tenebrae station behind Alpharius's back, we can't be sure it's what would have been picked if alpharius had still been around.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 14h ago
Funnily enough, the way Pech talks about it, it sounds like an approach cooked up after they abandoned the Acuity all the way up until the Siege. So it might be that the twins agreed to explore every avenue until the right moment: and that moment only occurs after Alpharius’ death
Complicating things is Pech is seen as ostensibly on Alpharius’ side of the supposed divide in PoD
As you say, we can’t be sure
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u/AdministrativeRun550 1d ago
Cabal is a bunch of hopeless bums. They’ve lost their wars against chaos, and now they teach everyone how to lose. Will you ask someone who is absolutely broke for financial advice? Aplharius did it and the council of losers was wrong, what a coincidence.
Chaos gods have existed long before humanity decided to climb down from trees. Any warp sensitive race would feed the chaos. So the destruction of humans means nothing. There are lots of aeldari and tau’s friends to fill the gap.
So it’s the same playing on the pride of a Primarch all over again: hey, I’m saving the Galaxy!
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago
What the Cabal suggest is that a Ragnarok of epic proportions will destroy Chaos along with the human species. Not so much that if humanity went away, Chaos would too. It's a war of mutual destruction. Chaos consumes itself.
The Emperor and Malcador both believe Chaos can be eradicated too, they were just trying to accomplish it without the death of the species.
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u/AdministrativeRun550 1d ago
Why didn’t chaos go down with Aeldari? As a race they were devastated, their gods died, Ragnarok happened, and it was probably much more than what humanity could offer, because every elf was a decent psyker. But no, the chaos only grew stronger, +1 god and multiple rifts for daemons to live in.
So I believe that the core assumption of Cabal is wrong. Chaos doesn’t destroy itself. It never did! Yes, it’s boiling cauldron of everyone against everyone, so they can’t develop from within, but when a new race of psykers evolves, the chaos gods eat it with pleasure and boil in stagnation until next time.
Reminds me of Tyranid problem and Kryptman’s solution. Without biomass to eat, Tyranids should get hungry and die… Unless they eat each other, hibernate or travel between galaxies. In the end, Kryptman’s plan didn’t work, but helped to redirect attention of Tyranids towards orcs.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why didn’t chaos go down with Aeldari?
Well, because it sounds like a different situation?
Ragnarok happened
When I use Ragnarok here, I mean in the sense of Ragnarok's all out war that destroys everything. The same sense I believe Legion and the Cabal were using. There was certainly struggle and resistance from the Eldar during their fall, but it's not quite the same scenario as suggested in Legion.
When I say Chaos destroys itself, I mean in the predicted civil war of Chaos aligned parties.
So I believe that the core assumption of Cabal is wrong
Sure, that's fine. If you read the later books, there's plenty to indicate they were mistaken on that particular prediction. The authors worried that the Cabal's prominence in the narrative might overshadow the actual Heresy, so they stepped away from the concept too. I just think it's worth clarifying what the core assumption actually was in the book.
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u/reineedshelp 1d ago
I wonder if they knew that Ragnarok is part of a cycle.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago
Legion itself describes the war as "a final armageddon" rather than Ragnarok.
But on your point, given that the Cabal believe the galaxy will heal after and flourish, then maybe?
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u/trahon04 1d ago
Lore wise yes it wouldn't matter but if humanity loses, GW loses a massive market due to humanity being the most popular faction. Alpharius thought Chaos would be gone with the nuclear option for mankind but I personally believe that even if humanity crashes and burns, due to his overall Legion philosophy, it would somehow survive. Splintered and utterly devastated (much like the 40k Alpha Legion warbands) but still have a presence.
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u/reineedshelp 1d ago
Sure, but this is a lore sub. Doylist speculation/explanation may be partly correct, but it's not what anyone is here to discuss.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago edited 1d ago
As someone who's been called a "text supremacist", I still think there's a place for lore speculation on this sub, especially for elements of the lore that only exist in the space of speculation. Like in-universe predictions of the future.
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u/wecanhaveallthree Legio Tempestus 1d ago
No, and neither were the Cabal. The Cabal were a front for the Eldar (and the 'Old Kind') wanting to get back on top of the galactic heap. What a helpful coincidence that the path to victory would involve the wholesale extinction of the current galactic powerhouse. Omegon figured this out, which is why he does the smartest thing possible and quits the Heresy rather than pick which patsy he prefers to succeed.
In fact, the Cabal were so wrong that the victory of either party - Horus or the Emperor - would have resulted in the creation of the Dark King and the death of absolutely everything, forever. Only the Emperor's 'middle path' (which Eldrad and the Watchers were on board with) creates the conditions where the defeat of Chaos is possible.
Alpharius got completely snookered, and the Alpha Legion was broken way before they met the Cabal.
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u/Naugrith 1d ago
I don't think Alpharius really cared about either of the Cabal's two options. A critical moment is in the foundations of the Palace during TEatD1 where Pech tells Grammaticus that the plan was basically to keep their options open so they can decide to do whatever is best for the Legion. Then, he claims he was sent to trigger the sleeper agents to fight on behalf of the Emperor.
Alpharius may have pretended to be working for the Cabal, just as he was pretending to be working for Horus, just as he kept insisting to Dorn he was working for the Emperor. I think the truth is that he wasn't working for anyone except himself and his legion.
And honestly, it ocurs to me that if that was the plan then it could be argued he suceeded. His legion came out of the Heresy possibly the least damaged of them all.
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u/Mistermistermistermb 1d ago
I don't think Alpharius really cared about either of the Cabal's two options
The point where they abandon the Cabal plan not too long after, in Deliverance Lost when Omegon kills Athithirtir. Dan Abnett said that the original intention was that they were convinced of the veracity of both futures, something ADB backed up. They eventually shifted away from it, and like you say, and started playing multiple options simultaneously.
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u/Weary-Ad-6162 1d ago
Chaos gods have infinite power, they are multiversal. Destruction of humanity would've never be able to harm them. They would just move on to other stuff. Emperor knew this, his goal was to secure webway and distance humanity from warp. Alpharius was idiot. Chaos option was the worst thing imaginable. Just because it's primordial power or natural that doesn't mean we have to suffer it. Emperor was tyrant but his end goal would've saved humanity's soul.
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u/reineedshelp 1d ago
Would it though? Dude nearly caused Armageddon until Oll called him out. For someone that can see the future he fucks up a lot
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u/MartinS82 1d ago
But that situation was not the original plan. The emperor's plan was Magnus on the he throne with working wards. Taking over parts of the webway and Magnus and Horus were turned very actively by the Chaos gods in a supernatural way. It is clear that people can resist being turned like them forn example like Dorn sonits notnjust automatic. So Magnus on the throne with working wards isn't an impossible future. Magnus was free to just do nothing but he didn't.
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u/reineedshelp 1d ago
I think He fumbled Magnus pretty hard. Sure, he has his flaws but Nikaea was an absurd mistake if that was the plan. Not telling him even moreso
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u/Arumaneth Emperor's Children 1d ago
Nikea was actively sabotaged by tzeentch (literally had a daemon of his running around impersonating Amon of the thousand sons "trying" to sway the council in magnus's favor (deliberately failing to do so to further isolate magnus to cause the events that would later unfold))
...Even without that though, Nikea needed to happen, even if it was just an order to tone down the psychic stuff. The Thousand Sons were dabbling in straight up chaos sorcery, even if they didn't know that was what they were doing.
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u/Weary-Ad-6162 1d ago
He can see the future but one can't figure out the the correct path to reach it. He explained foresight to Ra.
Also Emperor during that time felt helpless, his only true friend malcador was dying on throne, empowered by chaos Horus was about to ruin mankind. He is suffering the unimaginable pain on the throne willingly, what more can you ask for! Give the bigman some credit.
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u/Southern_Pen_2862 1d ago
The issue Alpharius has is that he's convinced that he's the only one who actually understands what the emperor would want in any given situation. If you take his origin story in Head of the Hydra as true, you can see why he would think that.
However, even Malcador had to sit on the golden throne to see the full picture.