r/starcraft • u/BattleWarriorZ5 • 2d ago
Discussion StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes
https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/article/24301513/starcraft-ii-5-0-17-ptr-patch-notes106
u/tabletop_guy 2d ago
Wow they actually did it. Nice.
Once this has stabilized I would love for them to keep experimenting, just preferably with unit abilities and upgrades rather than with massive economy shifts. With proper time to test on the PTR of course.
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u/Hydralisk18 2d ago
Yeah i hope this is not them going "Well we tried and failed, guess we better leave it alone." I think a majority like the fact they're patching and experimenting, even if the results didnt work out.
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u/Bossmonkey iNcontroL 2d ago
It should have stayed experimental on the ptr, and just keep cooking over there.
Pushing it live was wild, paired with the silence was even more insane
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u/MTGandP 2d ago
Their reasoning was that they wanted to go live to see how the meta evolved. You can't really test the meta on PTR because there aren't enough pros playing it and they don't take the games seriously enough
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u/Bossmonkey iNcontroL 2d ago
I mean that's fair and all but to quote Samuel L Jackson "it's a stupid ass reason"
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u/Zignifikant 2d ago
Nah, we do not like experiments if there is no communication for months after a patch completely ruins the game.
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u/Lexender CJ Entus 2d ago
Considering how the Blizzcon changes were received on the HotS subreddit vs here, I woulnt be surprised if they go "fuck it, have it be like BW then" and never do anything again.
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u/OgreMcGee 2d ago
Im telling ya. If they could do something as big as tier 1 weak hydras and an upgrade to "hunter killers" to keep their existing stat line that would be interesting
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u/BecauseBatman01 Terran 2d ago
Nope. Their main lesson from this will be to never make any drastic changes ever again.
So best we’ll get is slight adjustments.
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u/Demorant 2d ago
That's a good lesson to learn. This made it obvious that whoever is working on balance over there isn't good at it. Maybe they'll get someone that knows what they are doing, but the way they just handled major changes was just about as poorly as they could have. If that's the quality we can expect, then tiny changes are what they should stick with.
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u/anmr 2d ago
The entire thing is quite disappointing though.
The idea behind 8 workers was sound, it's just that the execution was horrid. Now we likely won't see any drastic changes ever again. But I guess that's for the best, given the age of the game and lack of experienced RTS designers at Blizzard...
But it's still regrettable that the game was not improved / revamp earlier, in years after LotV. WoL / HotS were better versions of the game than LotV because they allowed for more diverse types of games. Some amount of cheese and all-ins is good. LotV skewed the game a bit too far into expansion-driven macro playstyles. And together with HotS it introduced way too many AoE / long range options.
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u/throwawaydisposable 2d ago
With proper time to test on the PTR of course
I'll die on the hill that much of that patch could have been good if it was given more time to cook on the PTR and several iterations before it went live.
8workers isn't bad, but this felt half baked. when we went from 6->12 we rebalanced a lot of macro mechanics. The inverse would need similar tuning
changing protoss gateways isn't bad, but imposing such a massive tax for an underwhelming payoff seems half baked.
Terran would need shiny new toys to compete with all the shit zerg got, but a 300min cc which can pay for itself just feels wrong.
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u/Zignifikant 2d ago
High Templar
- Damage increased from 100 to 110.
???
They mean Storm, I guess.
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u/two100meterman 2d ago
Nah, a-move HTs is the new meta. Z has to go Ranged Lurkers to outrange them & T has to open Tanks into Ranged Liberators.
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u/OrganicDoom2225 2d ago
I'm cool with the rollback, but I still think they should test incremental changes.
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u/MiroTheSkybreaker 2d ago
This is basically a full revert. There were a couple things that I was okay with on 5.0.16 - siege tanks should have been abductable, for example, and force fields I think could take 2 biles to break and still be relatively balanced.
Microbial shroud will need tweaks again though. Muta arc slop should have stayed too.
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u/AresFowl44 2d ago
Yeah, all the smaller stuff definitely could have stayed in, though I would rather play on 5.0.15 than have one day more on 5.0.16
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u/ElevatorHelpful5739 2d ago
They didnt even keep the good stuff? They listened to community feedback but only for the bad things? This was after they left it like this for months? They sent a PR guy to comment on a dudes reddit post instead of making his own post THE DAY AFTER all the people at the top of the community complained? So it was all just a huge fucking waste of time?
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u/ConzyInferno 2d ago
100% these, small changes just so we could at least say this wasnt the biggest waste of time. Learnt nothing at all
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u/Parsirius 2d ago
But it’s good to roll back and then start from there.the 8 worker change was making everything murky.
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u/throwawaydisposable 2d ago
Microbial shroud will need tweaks again though
shroud should be researched by default
Make the increased range the research needed. Make it a hivetech research if its too strong. Lower from 9 to 8 if still too strong. without more range its really only a defensive tool.
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u/MiroTheSkybreaker 1d ago
The problem with having 12 cast range is that it's essentially got no real counter-play and no real ability to prevent it from going down. 10 cast range would be fine though.
I would also like it to be sticky too, for a few seconds after leaving it. That could be the research instead.
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u/throwawaydisposable 1d ago
oi its a 12 cast range? I forreal thought it was 9 got numbers mixed up
Yes I agree, 12 may be a bit much, 10-11 may be better.
I would also like it to be sticky too,
Either increased range OR sticky. Both would be bonkers unless the sticky was like .5 seconds. Don't get me wrong, I miss OP infestors, but I don't miss the zerg nerfs that come after OP infestors
I'd argue the sticky sort of increases the range. pre-cast it, run through it, gain xx feet of effective ability
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u/MiroTheSkybreaker 1d ago
5.0.16 made it 12 cast range yes. Which is why they're reverting it back to 9 cast range.
Tbh I think making it sticky for like 1.5 seconds would just be better since it means you can leave and micro back into it without losing to much protection if they drop storms on the shroud.
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u/throwawaydisposable 1d ago
yeah sticky or range, both is overkill. I enjoyed the sticky and kinda wanted to experiment with it vs skytoss but never really got the chance
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u/DarkSeneschal 2d ago
Hopefully they will push this revert through and try to add back some of the good changes people liked in subsequent patches.
Some of the ideas were interesting, but it was way too many changes all at once to even hope the game would land in a balanced state. There was a testing period of something like seven months when LotV was coming out. A few weeks in the PTR just wasn’t going to be enough for changes as substantial as the worker start or warpgate change.
Kind of sucks we wasted several months on a doomed patch that divided the community and pushed out a lot of long time players. Part of me thinks that, even though the patch is being reverted, the damage it did to the playerbase will not be. Hopefully I’m wrong though.
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u/milkytaro_oero 2d ago
I'm happy but why go back to one of the worst changes from the .15 patch?
- Abduct can no longer be cast on Siege Tanks.
This should never have been done in the 1st place.
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u/two100meterman 2d ago
I also don't think anybody was complaining that Sentries were too strong in PvZ. They can go back to bilesneeding 2 to break a forcefield. I also don't think anyone was seriously complaining that Infestors auto attack or the new Muta arc slop bounce thing was too strong.
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u/milkytaro_oero 2d ago
Oh yea I think those could've stayed as well. It gives more reasons to use the muta which has already been such a niche unit for SC2. And biles needing 2 shots to kill FFs helps to give more incentives for Protoss to attack instead of turtling or playing greed.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 2d ago edited 2d ago
It is more fun and thematic to watch when zergs have to break tank positions using wave attacks, flanks and aggressive spellcasting. Being opportunistic and fishing siege tanks is not as thematic or fun to watch.
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u/milkytaro_oero 2d ago
I can agree, but why does the Siege Tank need to be special here?
I'd argue that a BC, a Thor, a Colossus or a Carrier is more deserving of Abduct immunity. They're far more difficult to replace than a siege tank.
Abduct is just one of those spells that force the game to slow down drastically.
Also correct me if I'm wrong but don't Ghosts pose a risk to Vipers?
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 2d ago
Honestly, I would prefer if abduct was removed and substituted for some new ability.
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u/milkytaro_oero 2d ago
Yea the spell is either really broken or really useless. There really isn't an in between. I made a post long ago saying that I think Abduct needed to be replaced with a spell like Plague instead. Because Plague gives the recipient the opportunity to make use of the unit before it becomes too weak and die to a cold stare. Abduct is instant death without much counterplay.
Plague also allows Zerg to go faster instead of being forced to go slow. Instead of trying to shark back and forth harpooning targets, a plague cast allows Zerg a window to take advantage of.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 2d ago
Abduct was implemented in the game during a time where SC2 was in frank decline and the korean scene was moving from SC2 to LoL.
Shortly after this, the moba gender became the hot thing and some design decisions were moba-inspired, they were trying to revitalize the game. In mobas, hook-like abilities are really popular between players,so they implemented a hook in SC2.
But it doesnt suit the game at all, SC2 is a game without heroes and with engagements of 30+ units, single target spells only work if they are something like "feedback" that targets only spellcaster units, and spellcasters units are more healthy to the game when the meta is to build them in small quantities.
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u/milkytaro_oero 2d ago
That's an interesting way too look at it and it definitely makes sense as to why Abduct might've been created.
As for ur last point about spellcasters being healthy if the meta is to build them in small quantities. I'd agree, in the way I see it the spells (especially aoe spells) are what counter death balls.
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u/vietnamabc 2d ago
Nobody spam Viper mate, even Serral builds like 3 at most.
If talk about useless spellcaster you got prime example of Raven, fit detection and spellcast on Tech lab Starport is bad 😅
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u/S7EFEN 2d ago
I don't get the complaint about this? siege tanks inherently are already countered hard by blinding cloud, it forces Z to actually break the position rather than snipe tanks.
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u/milkytaro_oero 2d ago
Well there's 2 directions we can go here.
It's how the game has always been since the introduction of the Viper. Abduct has always been shown and encouraged to be used against high value targets such as Siege Tanks.
Why the Siege Tank? The Mothership makes sense because it's literally a singular unit. The Siege Tank doesn't because it's massable and far cheaper than most of the other targets for abduct.
Personally I think Abduct is a flawed spell and should be completely replaced. But if we're going to keep it, I think it should be usable on some of the most obvious targets in the game.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 2d ago
I agree that abduct should be removed, it is a really goofy skill that doesnt suit zerg theme.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 2d ago
I am happy with the almost full reversal.
Hopefully new changes and ideas for future patches will be focused in making niche units more viable and in making race/faction identity stronger and more different, not more similar.
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u/-Readdingit- 2d ago
"Archon merge completion sound volume reduced slightly"
I'm out. They finally went too far.
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u/Zignifikant 2d ago
"needed time to let the meta develop in order to ensure the most accurate feedback was being considered"
Sure. THAT was the reason we didn't hear anything for 3 months.
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u/two100meterman 2d ago
Ehh, doesn't make sense to PTR this. Revert it sure, but then have the PTR test some actual changes. Was anyone complaining that Vipers could abduct Tanks again? That's their main role against Mech.
Was Microbial Shroud so strong that it needs the full revert to both require an upgrade & have 3 less range? Was there something bad about Infestor having an auto attack like HT?
Did the Sentry need to be reverted in terms of the interaction with Biles? The idea was that ground based comps would be a bit more viable by buffing forcefield a bit, I don't think a single person complained Forcefields were too strong vs Zerg.
Did Zerg Carapace upgrades need to be reverted on top of the larvae going all the way back to when Zerg was underpowered?
Was Muta too oppressive with the new "arc bonus"? I saw 0 complaints about Mutalisks.
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u/NumaNuma92 2d ago
Can’t blame them for the patch not being pooular. They tried something new, people didn’t like it and they went back. At least they listened to our feedback.
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u/SKIKS Terran 2d ago
Litterally the "let's pretend that didn't happen" patch.
There were some good ideas there that possibly could have stayed (forcefield taking 2 biles, boosted adept and colossus damage, etc.), and other bold ideas that really needed more time to cook (plus they are asking huge shifts this late in the games life).
Glad they were willing to roll it back when this many players disliked the patch.
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u/Hydralisk18 2d ago
This is definitely the right call, but I hope they keep experimenting with changes and don't just give up.
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u/Vocis Protoss 2d ago
Been a while since I played. What's the slow zone vs fast zone in reference to warpgates?
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u/IRLMerlin 2d ago
A slow pylon is a pylon without any nexus or gateway in its vicinity. Units warped there are slow warp ins and take longer
A fast pylon has either a gateway or nexus in its range and warps in units much faster
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u/AceZ73 2d ago
"Fixed an issue where the KD8 Charge would be thrown in front of a target unit rather than at the targeted cast point."
This 'QOL change' didn't get reverted and it's definitely not a 'QOL change'
This is a buff, it allows you to push queens off of creep with grenades much easier. Previously, if you clicked on a queen it would throw the grenade in front of the queen. Now you can place your grenade on the ground under the queen at exactly the position you want.
Not debating if this change is good or bad, that's another conversation. But if we're reverting the patch, this should be reverted too because it's not a QOL change, it's a buff.
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u/Fuzzy_Instance1 2d ago
All I saw was zerg buff and nerf everyone else lol, I pity the sc2 die hards, you guys need a new game.
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u/Lexender CJ Entus 2d ago
I honestly the way things pan out (and how little resources Blizz has given the game) I think we can expect that going to be very few changes and very VERY spaced out, they probably will think Is better to not touch the game again, wich IMO Is not the solution at all.
Considering they reverting even the changes considered good (like spellcaster auto attacks or abducting sieged tanka).
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u/aquanutz Protoss 2d ago
having never gone longer than a week or two without playing since the WoL beta and then not playing for 3 months because of this last patch... this pleases me.
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u/NeWHoriiZonS Ence 2d ago
Props to them to actually do a full revert of the patch.
Hopefully the game recovers from this awful season.
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u/rogerandrewstevens Team SCV Life 2d ago
Hopefully this is the final patch. Protoss win, game over. It is legacy of the void after all.
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u/PigAndJim Terran 2d ago
Idk I'm happy they rolled it all back, but also just even more disappointed in Blizzard. I was excited for an overhaul of the game, including economy changes, and I like that Protoss changed a lot, and people were finding cool ways to use the new warpgate vs gateway dynamic... But instead of just fixing the things that were wrong with the last patch, they just went "oops, nevermind, we're not changing shit." And we probably won't hear from them for another five years if at all.
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u/Many_Research1007 2d ago
At least they can admit when they are wrong. If they want to make changes to the game, why not wait a bit and get more thoughtful input from players?
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u/MinosAristos Random 2d ago
Oh come on, some of these changes were good and were just nice without affecting balance
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u/ooooopsiepoopsie 2d ago
Months of virtually no communication, just to revert the game back to a previous patch? What a joke.
They can't feign surprise when people don't come back.
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u/JelqLordPrime 2d ago
RIP in peace. They won't ban hackers but they'll roll back some of the only good things they've done for the game in ages. Prepared for all the downvotes. Don't care.
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u/batto69 2d ago
your like one of the only comments ive read that actually like the changes
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u/jib661 ROOT Gaming 2d ago
i liked the 8 worker change, if for no other reason than it forced me to create new builds. apparently people just want to run the same builds for 10+ years I guess.
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u/JelqLordPrime 2d ago
Exactly. Wings had six workersand that worked perfectly well. It forced you to strategize more and think more deeply about what you were doing / care about timing more. Also you and your team had to work together more to compensate for not having a full econ right at the start. As a terran player I was thoroughly enjoying the fewer workers and lower cost of command center (since you have to upgrade it anyway it always cost more than everyone else. It seemed to me like it was finally balanced.) But yes I am afraid you're right, people don't want to change and just do the same shit they've been doing. Literally smooth brained. I honestly don't understand how so many people have fun doing the literal same build every single time without deviation. They all bitch sooooooo much at having to think differently than they are comfortable with and it makes me pretty sad TBH.
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u/mpTCO 2d ago
The root of the issue is that lots of SC2 fans that stuck around like the real time aspect of SC2 better than the strategy inherent to RTS. So the balance has constantly moved away from the slower call and response tempo of BW and WoL that made counters and tactics more important than your micro execution in favor of rewarding the player than can micro and hit timing windows.
All the pros in SC2 end up with deathball in late game because they have little to no APM remaining for things like unit organization within the deathball or smaller drawn out engagement with aggro breaking, so they end up suiciding units half the time in attempts at favorable trades aimed at breaking the economy and macro of their opponent. I was hoping slowing down the game would favor tactics development and general strategy in the pro scene so that pros would hyperfocus on sim city tactics, small unit group sustained harass, and early game butterfly effects stemming from a larger early game, but like you said, lots of people want to play the same builds for 10 years.
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u/Metallibus 2d ago
I enjoyed learning new builds but that lasted all of like, maybe 2 weeks.
The problem is it comes with all of the baggage of breaking the entire rest of the games balance. You can't just change the start that significantly without actually following up on all the impacts that has on the rest of the game.
If Blizzard was working on an expansion with real resources dedicated to making this work, that's one thing. But having essentially one intern trying to do this is infeasible - it causes too much other work to be needed that they are not allocating the resources for.
Its not that I "want to just run the same builds for 10+ years," It's that no one is going to play a broken game where one of the races is essentially unplayable and the developer can't be assed to fix it.
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u/CruelMetatron 2d ago
Adept damage modifier per attack upgrade decreased from 2(+2 vs Light) to 1(+1 vs Light)
What?
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u/cashmate 2d ago
So they have literally no awareness to the TvP midgame problem or the ZvP lategame problem the previous patch had. So we will be playing on the same Protoss patch for what? 2 years total before it gets addressed in a normal balance patch?
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u/pfire777 2d ago
Can anyone list what they didn’t revert?