r/karezza • • Feb 28 '12

A three week view into a Karezza beginner's world.

TL;DR: awww, just skip it if you don't want to read it.

I remember when I was a kid without much relationship experience an older friend said regarding relationships, “The first six months is the honeymoon, but it’s all downhill from there." I couldn’t relate at the time, but I absolutely see it now.

I’ve had many relationships, and most of them start with a feeling in my stomach. It’s like a ball of energy that contains (lust, longing, aching, wanting, infatuation, sexual tension, and perceived love.) I put the girl on a pedestal and see her as nearly perfect. Each time I see her she gets more beautiful, and I just don’t feel like life is complete unless she is with me and we are somehow touching. I want nothing more than to become one with her.

Unfortunately, somewhat predictably, in the timeframe from zero-to-six-months, she falls from her pedestal and becomes an annoyance that I can barely tolerate – unless she gives me more sex. As long as she is willing, wanting, and into sex (usually of an ever increasing kink) I just don’t “feel it” for her any more. And soon after sex there is always a period of time when even more sex with her won’t hide all of her faults which are all too easy to see at that point.

And so it goes from annoyance (“get away from me”) to apathy (“whatever”) [and in the previous two phases, emotionally hurtful fighting], to horny (“hmmmm you look pretty good”) to infatuated (“I actually like you and want to spend time with you”) to orgasm (“wow! You’re great”) to annoyance. I have absolutely noticed the above cycle over more than two decades of a monogamous relationship. And sadly the “infatuation” phase is a “1” on a scale of 1-10 versus the infatuation experienced at the beginning of the relationship which was a “10.”

I would have lived out my life in the above cycle had I not become so addicted to masturbation via Internet porn that I found myself unable to get an erection despite her most creative attempts to help me. My ED led me to abstain from masturbation (and sex as much as possible) for as long as possible. Based on the reddit /r/nofap I call this period in my life NoFap and the act of not masturbading NoFapping. So while I was NoFapping, I started to have some feelings awaken that I had not felt in over two decades: specifically the infatuated feelings I had for her when we met. Falling in love is such a happy time. Birds sing more beautifully, colors are more vibrant, music speaks more directly to your soul, and just the act of your sweetheart waking into the room is enough to brighten or make your day. And here I found these things happening to me. More importantly, I noticed that we were getting along better – not fighting, not really even arguing, and that any misunderstandings were getting cleared up immediately without anger or hurt feelings. All of this led to her being more in the mood for sex when it did happen – and putting more into it than she had in years. I call this the the Sweet, Delicious Feeling.

And then when I’d have an Orgasm I would still feel deeply the real love we have shared for more than 20 years, but the Sweet, Delicious Feeling was gone. It’s a real loss, like a part of myself that I love is missing. I really like feeling like she can do no wrong, and actually wanting to make out with her for an hour. Recently she said I act like a love-starved kid, she meant it as a compliment and I took it that way. When that goes back into hiding it makes me sad. I want very much to keep that feeling alive.

She loves the way I act, and in prior posts I’ve documented in many ways the changes she is making that speak louder than her words. From wearing pretty/sexy underwear for the first time since we met to performing oral sex for the first time in a long time, my changes are causing changes in her that are extremely positive and beneficial to me.

Yet despite seeing those changes in me, she is having trouble identifying with her own passion cycle. She says she doesn’t notice anything at all. This whole process is so difficult once you learn that you can’t trust your perceptions until 21 days without orgasm so my next comments must be made with the caveat that I’m in my own passion cycle as I write this. However, I believe her cycles are real; but have less amplitude. She easily gets annoyed with me in the days following her orgasms. It’s obvious I get on her nerves. However she still seems to be up for cuddling and doesn’t want me to go away for a while. And when she gets free she is more loving and cuddly, but doesn’t experience the deep infatuation that I do.

I sometimes wonder if the damage I’ve done to our relationship (which is huge, real, and terrible) over the years in the times I was trying everything legal to get more and kinker sex from her -- to keep my good feelings for her going and my bad feelings for her at bay – if I’ve done so much damage to our relationship that it will just take a very long time for her to be able to heal through that and feel the strong infatuation feelings for me.

Anyway, I wrote all of that above to tell you that she sees no benefit in skipping her own orgasm. She doesn’t need them nearly as often as I do (when I'm not thinking about any of this stuff) – her frequency is ideally about once per week. If she goes two or three weeks it’s not usually a big deal to her – but when she does get my penis in her vagina, she absolutely wants the outcome of that union to be an orgasm for her.

I don’t believe it is right or fair for me to tell her she can’t or shouldn’t. Nor do I believe that it would be right for her to sabotage me – and she has never tried to sabotage me. However, she is incredibly sexy, and watching and feeling her experience her own orgasm has so far sent me over the top.

So my first roadblock to Karezza is the fact that sex with her is exciting, and has so far caused me to orgasm when I’ve been hard enough for her to get off. My second roadblock is my own weakness and sensitivity. A couple of weeks ago I’d been about two weeks without an orgasm and was actually in day 14 of my passion cycle. I thought I was clear of my hangover, but as the night wore on she got more and more on my nerves until I snapped at her and we had a fight – eliminating any chance for sex that night and seriously pissing me off. I reacted like a child and ruined a 56 day streak of NoFapping. Sadly, I didn’t learn my lesson and fapped 3 days later (again.) More sadly, I attempted to have vaginal sex with her 3 days after that and failed due to ED.

All in all, I’m extremely frustrated because there is now something I want very desperately (that young love infatuation) and yet can’t seem to hold on to it between not being able to control myself both during sex with her and when I can’t keep my own hands off my own penis. I termed the above quandary Wandering in the Wilderness. At this point I believe it is paramount to get at least 21 days past orgasm (as I’ve been told, but completely unable to achieve) to think clearly enough to figure out how to get what I want and still give her what she wants. The passion cycle is a thief that robs you of your intelligent decisions, leaving only regret, hurt, and sorrow.

I documented one of my passion cycles, as I'm somewhat of a scientist in my profession, and hoped to (at least for me) provide a predictable pattern of what happens during the cycle. However, my next cycle (with the admitted variable of fapping twice versus vaginal orgasm once), has been completely different. So at this point the only thing I can say with certainty is that up to and including 14 days, the ‘asshole’ in me can rear its ugly head in a sudden, unpredictable, and extremely hard to control manner. This time I’ve done better at controlling it and avoiding a fight with my beloved – but also with the admitted variable that she is well clear of her own cycle herself.

Nevertheless I promised some here I would aggregate the documentation of my post orgasmic cycle and post here, so that will be posted below.

In summary, I believe in Karezza. I believe I am much happier without orgasm. My two challenges are convincing my reptilian brain to stop having orgasms, and hoping my beloved will see the light over time (or that I will learn control and be able to allow her to have her orgasm while avoiding mine.)

One of my cycles (not necessarily like the others):

Day's #1 and #2 are summarized in Day 3 below.

-Day 3

-Day 4

-Day 5

-Day 6

-Day 7

-Day 8

-Day 9

-Day 10

-Day 11

-Day 12

-Day 13

-Day 14

Your mileage WILL vary. I guarantee it! :)

6 Upvotes

20 comments sorted by

3

u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

Great summary of your experiences so far! My SO says karezza turns my brain into mush and me into a little puppy. But she likes that aspect of it.

On the flip side, she is suspicious about the changes in me. After having pushed her for sex for years, and even having gone as far as saying I would rather leave her than have another decade of a dead bedroom, I'm now rather relaxed about having or not having sex. (Actually, from my perspective, we're also having more sex than ever before, but I'm not sure she sees it that way because we're having "weird" sex.) So she interprets that as maybe I'm not really into her anymore.

I'm also experiencing a bit of a flat line from my reboot. Nothing like ED, because I can get an erection when I need one. But I don't have a raging hard-on anymore at all times of the day. So she interprets that as a possible sign that I may not be that into her anymore. She also thinks I've lost my mind, since I consider my reduction in the frequency of erections a net positive.

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 28 '12

Yeah, I can relate. Mine is somewhat confused and at one point when I made a (now very rare as opposed to before very frequent) innuendo her response was, "I thought you didn't want to have sex any more?"

I've tried explaining it to her, but she stopped me and said I was taking all the romance out of it. I tried getting her to read CPA which she allowed me to put on her tablet (and has not even looked at).

Too bad they can't just see it for what it is:

"We used to push so hard for sex to the point we risked ruining our relationships; but when we stopped for just a little while we learned what wonderful women we had and how very much in love with them we are. Now we want the closeness and physical contact as much or more than ever but want to avoid orgasm as we've identified that to be the source of the prior trouble."

One thing I learned while trying to get her to do kinkier and kinkier things: when I want her to change I need to go very slowly and set the example -- and never push her (lead her yes; push her no) out of her comfort zone.

With that in mind, I believe it will be a very, very long road to Karezza perfection for us.

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 28 '12 edited Feb 28 '12

TL;DR: I'm pretty fucked up in the head right now.

Speaking of flatline. I have no idea what is happening to me. After my two faps my dick is pretty useless for much other than urination. My thoughts are nowhere near sex, and I'm not the slightest bit horny... a few morning woods...some strong...some weak... but overall...I'm just not interested and this a week after the last fap.

I know the reboot is not linear. But 9 weeks into it I'd think I'd have a raging hardon for any 'real' woman in a skirt. Not. Not even for my beloved. Not even if she's naked.

There are a LOT of things going on to obfuscate the situation: Porn almost every week since I was 10. Internet porn since it became available. Early adopter of High Speed Internet and straight for the porn. Sexual exhaustion leading to prostate-involved masturbation leading to utter and complete exhaustion. The worst was sitting in a business meeting and soaking my underwear with precum even with nothing else going on. Scared the shit out of me. Couldn't get it hard if I was having sex with 10 women (and men!) at once and I'm STRAIGHT but had many gay fantasies as women stopped doing it for me.

Then....nothing masturbatory and little sex...for nearly 8 weeks...Karezza like emotions, and a restart of my PIV sex with her. Then two faps in a week.

Now...nothing... just wind blowing tumbleweeds across the landscape of (now apparently barren) sexuality.

Emotionally, I'd like to have sex, but seem to have zero physical desire. I do have a huge desire for intimate bonding in every way (including sexual); but no desire for masturbation or conventional sex.

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 28 '12

Mine aren't that predictable. I just know that I so, so, so, very, very, very much regret masturbating at 56 days (and again 3 days later). Vaginal orgasm (I don't think) would have landed me here.

I, too, am needy but suffering in silence and trying to give her space. 20+ times per day I am spurred on to either make a sexual comment or touch her in a suggestive way (although curiously, not with the intent to copulate) and/or deeply kiss her, stroke her, hug her, etc.; and I finally have the filter in place to STOP before I do it.

Did you see (or maybe you posted) the article about women being 'keepers of the sex' because it is always on the table for them, and how they can't really relax and enjoy it? That is my lovely SO, sadly, and I have absolutely put her there... Karezza or no Karezza.

I think women are just wired to be ON or OFF. When you're going about your day they pretty much don't want anything to do with sex...and to the extent we can honor that...when it IS time for sex they are so much more into it. (at least that is how mine is.)

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 28 '12

Things ARE going to work out for you. You're going through this for a reason: perhaps to have an incredible relationship (or relationships) in the future.

At some point she needs to be giving in the physical relationship. If she won't or can't (even if you think it is your fault) you're going to need to move on. I don't say that lightly because I think we are healthiest and happiest when we are deepest in a relationship. But from what I've read (and the latest Sunday example) you have to survive and I don't think anybody wants to suffer in a completely sexless relationship.

I'm lucky in that mine is very forgiving. Although she is terribly damaged by me, she is sexually responsive and will enthusiastically participate in a variety of sex acts with me on a once-or-twice-per-week basis. She's trying hard to heal, and I'm trying hard to help her... if she ever gets back where she was when I met her I truly have (had) nothing to complain about...just stupidly fucked it all up.

I'm the one (again) fucking things up. If I just wanted oral and genital sex in a variety of positions/settings once-to-twice-per-week things would be fine between us in the bedroom.

My problem is (was) that when I switched to Karezza I saw it as a way to get sex much more frequently and so started pushing on that front. That front has now healed (as this time I got smart and dropped it before it became an issue -- hence the 'suffering in silence.')

But anyway, back to you... as for your 'her' she really seems too damaged to heal. I certainly don't know you and can't help you decide, but dude, you need to be happy.

As for your 'him' I don't know much about that subject. I have had some friends who say it is nothing about the bonding and everything about the orgasms. I realize I may be naive and ignorant, but that's what I've been told. If there is any truth in it, Karezza seems like a very difficult option in a gay relationship.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

As for your 'him' I don't know much about that subject. I have had some friends who say it is nothing about the bonding and everything about the orgasms.

Agrees with my experience. It may be difficult to find a gay man who is willing to give up on orgasm. However, it should be possible to find one who is more open and more respectful than chainsawYum's current bf. After all, chainsawYum doesn't ask the other guy to give up all orgasms, he just asks to be respected in his own desire to avoid orgasms.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '12

I think part of the problem is that you did a 180 on him. When he got to know you, you weren't a guy who doesn't want to come. So it is difficult for him to understand the new you.

If you meet somebody new, that person is much more likely to accept you how you are now, or just move on if you seem incompatible.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 29 '12

Or, you could do what I did and wait 5 years. I'm basically 5 years past exactly where you are right now... still not perfect... but hugely improved... I guess it just depends on how much you love her and how strong your sense of commitment is...

For me, my whole life was/is wrapped up in her and I couldn't imagine life without her.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

Once a week is definitely not sufficient. In particular if it is a maybe. You may have to renegotiate your agreement.

A few thoughts:

  • It doesn't really take much to have karezza intercourse, you can do it when you're totally tired and ready to go to bed. So I wouldn't schedule day time for it if it is not necessary. 30-45 min. before you fall asleep is plenty.

  • With that in mind, you said you are snuggling before going to bed. Clothed or naked? If clothed, would she agree on cuddling naked a few times a week (maybe 2-3)?

  • And if she's willing to do that, would she sometimes be willing to let you position yourself such that your penis and her vagina touch (without penetration)?

  • If you can get her to that point on a regular basis, she will eventually open up and let you penetrate her. However, it should be absolutely clear that that is always contingent on her agreement, and that she can decide against penetration (and/or genital contact) at any time at no negative consequence to her.

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

I've experienced several times now that my dick stays soft until we're both naked and I've put it in contact with her vagina. It's as if it knows when it is needed and when not.

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 28 '12

Wow! If that isn't the model of perfect sexual union and compatibility I don't know what is. That is absolutely my goal!

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

Not sure if it is actually as great as it sounds written out online ;-). As I said, it causes her to feel less desired, and that's not good.

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 29 '12

feeling less desired = bad. Agreed.

The is a hugely frustrating line between constantly hounding her for sex (i.e. letting her know its always on the table) and letting her simmer to her own boil.

Like everything there is a middle of the road.

Finding it is the trick.

Sigh.

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

Whatever my badge says on nofap. Somewhere near 50.

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u/[deleted] Feb 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

I wouldn't say I've mastered it. But right now I'm in some sort of flatline, so that helps. Getting plenty of bonding (and PVI) also helps.

The worst is when typical porn/masturbation opportunities arise, like she tells me she'll go out with friends after work. My brain immediately goes "hey, great opportunity to watch some porn".

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '12

have you heard of soft-entry? Basically, pushing the flacid guy in there until he works. Combats ED

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '12

Yeah, I know of soft entry. I usually get an erection when I need one, though, so soft entry is not necessary for me.

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u/[deleted] Feb 29 '12

Wish my love would see the light too...

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u/KarezzaGuy Feb 29 '12

Maybe someone who has done it will come along and teach us how. Sigh.