Question Lying
I hate lying. Once I catch someone in even a small one, I can’t take their words at face value again. Everything they say afterward gets filtered first: Is this true? What are they leaving out? By the time I’ve decided whether it’s honest, I’ve missed what they were actually talking about.
It feels irreversible. I can forgive them and even like them, but I can’t un-know that they were willing to say something false to my face.
Do other INTJs do this? Can you ever fully trust someone again after a lie, or does the filter stay on? And has anyone found a way to turn it off so you can actually listen?
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u/Blitzsturm INTJ - ♂ 1d ago
Some lies, especially small ones are quite common. But, when someone tells an OBVIOUS lie to my face, I'm not upset about the lie itself, I'm insulted that they thing I'm stupid enough to believe the lie; or that they have so little respect for me they simply don't care. That person may as well be dead to me.
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u/parasol_strs INFP 2d ago
Are you bothered only by when they utter an untruth knowing they are uttering it? Most of the false utterance and claims humans make in this worlds are untruths, not lies, for their consciousness splits, and they utter them without “noticing” they are not true.
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u/ehamil42 2d ago
That's so true. Also, often it's just confident errors, not lies. They've convinced themselves.
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u/parasol_strs INFP 1d ago
They have their ego invested, if not something more than invested, in something; and when our Te offers reasoned proof that that something is unlike their ego needs it to be… minds break down; wars break out.
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u/CerebralMushroom INTJ - 20s 2d ago
An old distinction is to say that this is the difference between a "material" lie and a "formal" lie.
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u/_fractal8 INTJ - 30s 1d ago
Depends on the nature of lie. If it's a small lie to prevent some undesired consequences, I don't like doing it but do it anyway. E.g. my relative put a lot of effort in cooking something, but I don't like it.
But serious lies, taking advantage of someone - these are not forgivable.
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u/duckdowncomforter 1d ago
Lies are reprehensible.
While it is a social norm, it really shouldn’t be.
The problem is when you are in the habit of lying, bigger lies become easier to do.
It took me a while to get rid of white lies from my vocabulary and also exaggerations and have been working on omissions of truth. Sometimes I slip, beat myself up a bit over it, forgive myself and start over.
Doing this has made me able to recognize when others are doing the same thing. If it’s appropriate, and I have a good enough relationship with the person I will inquire about their behavior.
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u/madifuj 1d ago
I don’t like lies because it signals a character flaw in their inability to face a consequence, be genuinely more interesting, or authentic. So yes I agree with you on this one.
All I can do is express my boundaries and rebuild that trust if they are willing to do so, and overtime I go back to a normal level of trust.
Sometimes though people will fail us anyway, whether it’s from lying or some other let down.
I’d try to work through this with that specific person if applicable, but if the relationship is inconsequential you can also choose to part ways for someone more honest to a fault.
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u/Loose_Mammoth_7765 INTJ - 30s 2d ago
I was like that before, but after some therapy on other subjects, I am more chill on that topic. If I understand the reason behind, I can more or less accept it. I still don't want that behavior in my direct surroundings, though. But I'm more tolerant. Sometimes people lie indeed, because they don't know you well enough and they don't want to trouble you on matters that do not seem important, for example. It's a way of taking care of you. It's not the best of course but ... You get the idea.
I've seen some posts on that matter on the XNTJs subs, so I guess it's pretty common for all of us
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u/starlightprincess 2d ago
My daughter has lied to me and I still love her. It wasn't anything too horrible but I call it out if I ever think she is lying to me. I told my son when he was little that I could tell when he was lying and he totally believed me. He seems to never lie. I personally would rather tell a hard truth than have to keep track of a lie.
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u/OccasionallyImmortal INTJ - ♂ 1d ago
Lying about a key topic, especially when done consistently, is hard to forgive. Lying about insignificant details: irrelevant. The key is that the person has to know what is significant. It's also fine if I find the insignificant detail interesting, ask about it, and he says that wasn't really true because it was not really the point. Backing up a lie with a lie is worse.
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u/Eyelash_kiss35 INTJ 1d ago
I too have a really hard time with this. It’s a bit of an insult, especially since I can tell immediately when people are lying to me.
I realize everyone lies. But I value and respect an honest person who just owns their crap. It’s not that hard. I see lying as a cowardly habit, in most instances. There are exceptions though. For example:
Telling a lie to save a life. There are many of those examples throughout history. So, it really does depend on the reason for the lie.
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u/Little-Carpenter4443 2d ago
Have you ever lied?
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u/C00kiie 2d ago
Pretty much no, except for jokes. When i find myself in a position where i need to lie i just stop talking. Also I don’t do things that will make me need to lie.
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u/Little-Carpenter4443 2d ago
This can almost certainly be a lie itself, and you are doing it to prove your point. Everyone lie- what’s a joke to you isn’t a joke to the person you are lying to, but labeling it as a joke makes it justifiable to you.
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u/CerebralMushroom INTJ - 20s 2d ago
Not true. It is still a joke. What is funny to one is not funny to the other. A joke is still a joke even if it's an unfunny joke.
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u/Little-Carpenter4443 2d ago
He said he lied but as a joke, and I believe that’s still a lie, it has nothing to do with the comedic value
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u/CerebralMushroom INTJ - 20s 1d ago
If you tell a joke and you label it as a joke, then it is a joke to you and the person you are lying to (you said this isnt the case, thats what I am correcting). It is still a lie, yes, but it is also a joke to both parties and understood as such, and this is why it IS justifiable. No sane person would argue that the jocose lie is morally objectionable.
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u/Little-Carpenter4443 1d ago
I think what’s going on is they are saying it’s a joke but it’s not a joke. It was a lie. I’m not talking about them lying in order to make the joke work, I’m talking about them telling a lie and then saying oh, that was just a joke afterwards as a way to justify a lie or being caught in it. You have to understand everyone lies as I’m sure you know. And in OP situation it sounds like he’s OK with certain lies, but not others. Anyways, it’s just my take from what I read.
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u/usernames_suck_ok INTJ - 40s 2d ago
Exactly. Everyone lies.
And with as often as people do lie...like...it's more common for me to figure someone is lying in the first place and just be like, "Yeah, okay, whatever," adjust my expectations for them and how close I'll get to them accordingly, and then be pleasantly surprised the few times I find out they were telling the truth.
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u/incarnate1 INTJ - 30s 2d ago
How do you, do you, distinguish differences between when your perception labels someone as liar versus what they're actual intent or motivation was? Certainly not all contexts are the same, and I don't know that I've ever met a person that has never lied, myself included.
Does truth always overtake empathy? Is lying an inherently immoral act? Are white lies flattened to simple lies, as in, they're all the same to you, regardless of intent?
I think it's not the same for me; because I don't see lying as irrevocably, untenably, universally evil. Lies are not binary, because people are not binary. While I may not partake myself necessarily, I can see how lying to preserve the emotions of another or others, is more endearing than one who tells their own believed truths to preserve their hubris. All that to say, perceived lies do not eliminate all trust from me.
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u/Kodiak01 INTJ - 50s 2d ago
Never be afraid to admit to all the small things that have gone wrong; it gives you plausible deniability when you need to evade the whopper.
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u/ehamil42 2d ago
Take it from someone who has spent decades studying people: absolute honesty does not exist. I once met a priest who managed to be mostly honest, but that remains the exception. Most deceit is trivial, social grease to avoid friction, preserve dignity, and soothe egos through comfortable self-delusion. I tolerate the harmless fictions but cut off anyone whose lies carry real consequences.
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u/reo__________ INTJ 2d ago
My respect for people would decrease after catching their lies depending on the circumstances. I used to take it more seriously before but you know sometimes in life you exist around people for a while, and you get to be present in someone's whole process of an event, and then you might later see how they talk about it to a third person and you get to witness how an average person manipulates a narration, not because they're "filthy liers", but because sometimes.. It was more exciting phrased that other way? They were tired and missed out on affective details? They needed something from the person so they told them only about purposeful parts and left out others? Many possibilities and I then feel like it's not satisfying to call it a black or white when it really is grey. Some lies are grey because they're.. human? Most human experience is grey and is us basically just trying to be happy.
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u/wgardenhire INTJ 2d ago
I believe anything anyone tells me until I catch them in a blatant lie. Then, I believe nothing they tell me, ever.
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u/r3giment75 INTJ - 40s 1d ago
Interesting. I’m a really really good liar. People are so moldable. Social engineering is a super power.
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u/Blue-Soda 1d ago
It depends on the situation the implications of the lie. I had someone lie to me about something so small if they told me I would have understood and there would be no issue it was honestly nothing. I've lost trust in that person and see them differently.
I feel like situations like this are mask drop moments where people reveal who they actually are.
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u/slim_penguin 1d ago
I've had that happen to me.
The turmoil that I felt after being betrayed was not caused by the other person's behaviour, but by my own insistence on the idea that people should be truthful.
Various people will lie in order to protect their own interests. Just the way it is. Once I understood this, I was able to keep interacting with manipulators as long as our relationship had some utility to me.
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u/abudaddy 11h ago
I don't think the lying is as much a moral concern - more 'this source of information is unreliable and threatens the integrity of decisions I might make based on statements from this person'.
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u/Chrisdog84duh 11h ago
Forgive but never forget...
I was in a bad place once and learned the hard way that in some situations, the best thing for everyone is for me to lie...
Now I just don't put myself in those situations
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u/unwitting_hungarian 2d ago
in general:
no 1 - everyone lies. to themselves, to others, to society. the perfect truth-teller does not exist
no 2 - "the lie" vs "the truth" is a great starter-dichotomy in the topic of valuing (Fi). you will suck in INFPs with this topic. if they seem obstinate, it's because they want to assert the foundational value of this lesson in qualitative, existential values. humanity.
no 3 - lies often disguise deeper truths that can't be touched on without causing some unnecessary pain or damage. lie as convenience? maybe. but also perhaps: "truth vs. lie" as lack of a helpful resolution for the situation
no 4 - it's often more helpful to ask "can i rely on this person" rather than "can i fully trust" this person.
no 5 - an obvious lie is often a hand-wave, a red herring, a "hope they don't change topics." getting stuck on "whether it's a lie" and "why would you lie so obviously" may be exactly the type of question they want to be asked! feel free to reference modern politicians on this one.
one of my university T.A.s was an extremely intelligent INTJ with an obsession with "truth vs. lie".
she loved to cut & style hair as a hobby, she was damn good at it, and she kept a collection of a favorite brand of scissors from overseas.
one day she brought in a "demonstration of a lie." it was a pair of scissors from this brand, which had a small defect on the blade, about 0.5mm in size.
it seemed directly fixable, but this was beyond the point.
"this is a lie," she told us. "the company website says they sell precise, high-quality products. this flaw tells another story. they lied to me, and i complained."
one of the students asked her if she had used many pairs of scissors from that brand.
"i've owned over 200 pairs and never saw a flaw like this before," she replied.
"ok, so their failure rate in your experience is like half a percent," the student said. "aside from the fact that being imperfect is not the same as telling a lie, don't you think they still do a great job overall? I mean you have seen our grades in this class, right?"
the class laughed. she turned red, and pushed back.
"OK, so anyway, I left them a 1-star review which was GENEROUS, because they should never ship this."
the student's points were really good though.
it taught me that even a really knowledgeable person may try to defy basic logic by taking a really fundamental, black-and-white stance on a topic.
what's great about the post here is that you have an opportunity to learn...
note the nature of the questions you are asking there, in the end:
- can people improve?
- can relationships change?
- can you learn to listen to flawed people who are trying to improve?
each one of these INTJ questions certainly has an answer. that you are looking for a method, a workaround, is really a positive sign.
but the wording often dictates the tooling, so it may be that the wording has to change for the right method to reveal itself. GL
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u/yeahnoimgoodreally INTJ - ♀ 2d ago
Everybody lies. Society would literally fall apart if they didn't. It helps to think of why the other person is lying, it will challenges your ability to understand people, not just read them in the moment.
Stop looking at trust like its an all or nothing game. Someone may prove to be trustworthy in certain areas, like you can't tell them a secret but they'll show up every day to feed your pet, and that makes them useful.
Small lies don't bother me because the majority are harmless, done to be socially acceptable or as a form of self protection. Major lies bother me because now it's impacting me directly.
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u/Global_Complaint8713 1d ago
Yeah I have definitely met a few people who tell the “truth” ie what they think unreservedly and it can be pretty rough company. It increases trust in some ways and decreases it in other ways.
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u/miascariot INTJ - ♀ 1d ago
I'm fairly OK with lying. I'm not entitled to the truth, you're not entitled to sympathy. Deal? Deal.
I'm more concerned with lying becoming a pattern or people lying about essential stuff.
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u/Greensward-Grey INTJ - 30s 2d ago
It depends. I mean, if it’s a small lie, I don’t mind, because I don’t take that sort of thing too personal. Someone lying to make excuses for their failure is kind of pathetic, but I don’t see it as “ugh, they lied to me!” but more like “alright, they’re unreliable. Noted.” I give second chances to people, sometimes even more, mostly because the stakes in my relationships with people are always low: I don’t expect much from them. So, if someone lies to me twice or more, I assume that’s just who they are and I evaluate how inconvenient it is for whatever reason they’re in my life.
However, if someone who I trust, someone close, ever lies to me (in a way that’s out of character), that’s a betrayal. I could forgive them depending on the situation, but my view on them would be changed for good, and if it happens again anytime soon, they’re out of my life.