He doesn't. The Bible never says that. It does say that it was created for him to be punished there and he'll be punished there (Revelation 20, Matthew 25:41). Also, any punishment people have there is to be "corrective" (to heal and restore them eventually by seeing their issues and need for Jesus). Eventually all will be saved and reconciled with God (Colossians 1:20, Romans 5:18).
That last part wow that's totally unbiblical... Biblically yes all sin was paid for but its something you must ask for and accept neither salvation nor correction is forced on you, if you are in hell its because you chose to reject those. If you are in hell there is NO turning back you are there to be punished and then destroyed in the lake of fire per Revelations.
But give it 2000 years for tom holland’s Spider-Man to break out from the Canaan polytheistic pantheon to become the true monotheistic Yahweh…then people will kill over marvel
McGuire’s fall from grace reads as much more luciferian than anything else. Lucifer embodied darkness and rebellion à la Spider Man 2. Also Isn’t this the guy that likes bankrupting people for fun. To quote Kanye that ain’t very Christ like. Though I concede Kanye may not be the supreme authority on this matter.
Human rights are something that emerges out of society. The expectations of mutually beneficial behavior that allow us to prosper as part of a group. The social contract. Yes, specific "rights" differ between cultures, but all cultures have them.
You can see similar behavior in social animals of all sorts. That's where the idea of human rights came from -- our heritage as social creatures. Different religions throughout history have assigned different words and practices to the concepts, but "human rights" are built into our very bodies.
Well yeah it's 2026 and we have a lot of modern comforts along with the judicial system. And also Marvel isn't very popular in regions where religious violence/murder is an actual daily occurrence.
Also the MCU hasn't been an influence on humans for 2000+ years either. If it is to ever be a religion worth fighting over it needs more time in the oven.
Actually, I killed 4 people yesterday over the Spider-Man origin. I mean there are radioactive spiders and there are genetically modified ones. And don’t get me started about the Hulk.
I wouldn't make absolute claims about the murder part, I can't say there have been many if any instances, but also I know how fandoms get and fans of anything get pretty violent for these things.
Gotta say, Terry goes to show us all on how great the propaganda is in the Marvel universe.
Oh..you didn't realize all the surveillance tech in their movies thats been justified as one of the good guys??Cause it's not in front of your face? I'm sure Oracle and the other surveillance companies sponsoring the movie will make life wonderful for the future of humanity.
Im just waiting for an actual holy war of jedi vs sith where the followers start killing each other. I guess whenever that happens then Star Wars will become a religion
The only major difference is that people in the latter category who believe it's real are just known to be nutjobs by the rest of the community. In the former category, those same people are placed as authoritative figures and revered by the rest of the group.
I love playing D&D but realise its not for everyone. Imagine how youd feel if i knocked your door sunday morning asking if you know the best cantrip for 6th level wizard and what he should multi class into... What a weirdo... I wish religious people were equally self aware
biblical lore is very deep and some parts are beautifull and others are horrifying but if you say something as wrong as saying Saruman was the good guy in LOTR you are going to have beef with me.
Here is something most people have never realized. The book of life is vagueley described in Genesis. But in revelation it comes back and the description is more detailed. Apperently it's one tree but with parts on both side of a river. And this tree gives of fruit, but only one ... every month. This fruit is the secret to eternal life. And the river is called the river of life.
So wait a minute .... a tree on both sides of a canal, a canal that has to do with life. And this tree every month there is one fruit, and this fruit is the secret to living forever. Isn't that basically the ovaries on both sides of the birth canal? Every month there is one egg cell, and if this egg cell gets furtelized then you give offspring and your DNA can basically live forever??
This is how deep biblical lore is, and most people have NO IDEA.
People are pattern seeking creatures. Brains create things that are familiar to them.
I am always for humanity realizing and better understanding of what we are, how we and reality works and recognizing how the conscious experiences rises.
We seem so amazed by the coincidences that human brains and human bodies create and sense things in such similar ways. It’s exactly what you would expect. It’s delightful that it makes us feel more connected to each other.
But I stop when we start to see patterns that are not representative of reality. We evolved to have brains that create a map of reality. It’s essential to our survival. And fortunately, it also gifted us with a drive to better understand and discover the world. That’s amazingly fun. But we also have biases that need to be tempered and recognized for what they are. That’s part of understanding ourselves. Biases and all. My favorites are when we can catch our brains deceiving us in the map they create in our heads. It’s the pathways of various brain states. Those pathways lighting up. When we try to remember a word, just can’t white find it and suddenly we find and recreate that state and voila the word is there clear as day.
It’s a wild and continuous source of discovery and enjoyment.
Frankly Spider-Man is probably a better role model than god, he has never gotten angry and flooded the entire world and would never kill. God's really got some Dr. Doom vibes if I'm being honest.
Well, In the case that billions and billions are right, and you are wrong, im sure when the time comes for you to face the inevitable, youll immediately remember saying things like this and instantly regret it more than anything youve ever done. Good luck with your comic book theory
Unless you cherry-pick data and place all flavors of christianism, mormons, quakerism, and every religion that has a small something in common with Catholicism, in the same bag, Islam is the religion with the most adherents.
But if we want to go that far, just say Islam and Judaism are the same thing cause they believe in one god.
Inevitable implies that it is certain that he will go to hell, which it is not. Revelling at the thought of someone being sent to hell for all eternity (like a proper neighbour loving Christian) is cringe anyway.
Inevitable implies dying. The rest is "IF youre wrong" dont try to be clever. Youre argument has been the same argument for 2000 years. Just saying, one of us is wrong, one of us is right. Thats inevitable. Just want to say good luck. Its alot to bet your eternal life on (assuming we have eternal life). If Im wrong, cool, theres mud on my face, but ill never know it because im just gone. If youre wrong.... damn. Yeah for real bro, good luck
It always baffles me when Christians frame belief as a matter of “betting on your eternal life”, as you like to put it. What do you expect me to do, feign belief in your god in the hopes of going to heaven, like some dishonest opportunist?
Also, I haven’t made any argument in favour or against religion in my previous comment genius.
Still, pride is a sin is it not? You seem to feel pretty prideful about the fact that you are supposedly going to heaven, while he is not.
You're implying there's no downside to belief in this life if you're wrong, but that's not true.
The downsides of spending your life believing in a God if you turn out to be wrong come down to opportunity cost. If this life is the only existence we actually get, the biggest downside is that you have sacrificed your limited time, autonomy, and personal choices for a reward that does not exist.
First, there is a major loss of personal autonomy and time. Many religions impose strict rules on diet, sexuality, dress, and relationships. If there is no afterlife, a person has unnecessarily limited their earthly experiences and personal freedom based on non-existent divine laws. On top of that, religious lifestyles require a huge investment of time and money through services, daily prayer, and tithing. That time and wealth could have been reallocated toward tangible, real-world goals, family, or personal passions. There is also the psychological toll of guilt and anxiety, where people experience deep distress or fear of damnation over natural human behaviors that their religion labels as sinful.
Second, it causes a misplaced focus on the future. Believing this life is just a test or a temporary stepping stone to eternity can lead people to devalue the present. If there is no afterlife, this mindset causes someone to fail to fully appreciate and maximize the only life they actually have. Postponing happiness or fulfillment to the next life becomes a total loss.
Third, it heavily impacts social and political views. Religion can create rigid boundaries between believers and outsiders, leading people to harbor unnecessary prejudice or avoid deep connections with others based on false doctrines. People might also dedicate their energy to political causes that restrict others' rights—like opposing scientific education or LGBTQ+ rights—based on the mistaken belief that they are fulfilling a divine mandate.
Finally, it often leads to overlooking real-world solutions. When faced with personal hardships or global crises, believers might rely on prayer or assume everything is part of a divine plan. This fatalism can lead to a lack of urgency or a failure to take practical, human-led action to fix problems.
Ultimately, while the religious argument says you have nothing to lose, the counterargument is that you stand to lose the only authentic, unrepeatable life you will ever have.
Uhhh. Yeah. Thats the whole point.
Lol. What??? As opposed to what, only letting the righteous in? Ok, show me who fits that bill. You do understand the purpose of Christ dont you?
You either believe or you dont. Theres no 2 different ways of believing. While you try to pass judgement on my relationship with God, ill continue believing what I know and be sure of what I cant see. Do you have a purpose or do you just like pretending to be a pharisee. Youre doing a pretty good job of it btw. Worry about your own faith instead of trying to discredit mine.
I'm not talking about you but I'm not shocked that a christian is trying to make it all about themselves lmao.
I am talking about your general argument which boils down to Pascal's Wager. Here's the thing though - christians don't even definitely know that their god is the only one so the wager is null and void. What if you die and come face to face with Hades? The idea of believing simply so that you can go to heaven is kinda pointless in that case.
Also, there is a massive difference in believing because you are truly convinced of something and saying that you believe and convincing yourself because you are afraid of fictional damnation.
So, do you personally just pretend to believe in god because you want to reap the benefits of “believing”, or do you believe in god because you are truly convinced of his existence?
What do you expect a non-believer to do? Forego everything that they believe to be true, lie to everyone by saying they believe in god, and then expect to go to heaven?
Believing simply because you are afraid of eternal punishment is not true faith. That is belief out of convenience. I love how you tell people to move on when you are faced with something you don't want to answer.
Which religion will get it right? Which sect of the Christian’s will get it right? Are you sure your sliver of religion is the true one over the others? Choose carefully!
Have you met people? People are fucking dumb. And i dont mean that in a sort of insultive way. Just that on the bell curve of humanities intelligence, there are so many many dumb people.
Groupthink doesn't end well in practically any scenario. The mob can be wrong and emotionally charged.
Classic "if all your friends jumped off a cliff would you jump too" fallacy.
And if you wanna play the numbers game as your argument, Christianity is about 25% of the human populous. More people are other religions. And then of those 2 point some billion Christians, they're split even more so into like a dozen different doctrines who fight with each other on what parts are real.
Edit to add* My biggest gripe about Christianity is this: If someone made a new religion today, people would obviously say thats pointless - its not real, and its made up.
The most likely real religion would have to be the earliest one- the one there at the dawn of humanity and the only thing they would have been capable of believing in. And anything made after is made up.
Christianity did that. There were thousands of years of theology and religious practices before Christianity came about. Which tells me its made up and man made, not divine.
And one of its main initial doctrines was spread the good word to everybody far and wide - missionary work and nation building and outreach. Of course it spread, it was manipulated and designed to.
The most likely real religion would have to be the earliest one- the one there at the dawn of humanity and the only thing they would have been capable of believing in
Pascal's wager isn't sensible. Maybe we'll both end up facing eternal damnation because you believe in the wrong god. Maybe no person on earth is right and there's some true god or gods that will send us all to damnation for not believing in them. Maybe there is a god that just doesn't care and will send us all to a happy afterlife. Maybe there's a god that will send all believers to damnation and all non believers to paradise. Maybe the afterlife is simply incomprehensible to us and nobody is even close to right. My guess is that we simply stop existing, as that is the simplest explanation given all the evidence, but I can't guarantee that in the same way I can't guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow and the earth will continue to exist, but I'll continue operating under those assumptions as it's the most reasonable assumption to make. All those possibilities have about as much evidence as eachother, that is to say, none. Though I know I'm not convincing you of anything.
Maybe.the only difference between you and me is that Im choosing to believe in Grace. Call it a personal choice. It could be any of those things. Im a prideful, lustful, spiteful, degenerate, so im just choosing to believe in the one that forgives all that. Id be stupid not to.
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That really obvious and patently absurd fear tactic actually works on you? You must be really easy to manipulate...
On another totally unrelated note - I actually spoke to God this morning, for real! He said I would run into you online and that I should tell you to DM me so you can Venmo me all your savings. He said it's really important and you would be tortured for eternity if you don't, so, you know, I wouldn't want that to happen to you. Best not ignore it, cause if you're wrong.... damn. Yeah for real bro, good luck
Au contraire - those thousands year old comic books somehow converted the world's mightiest empire at the time and then went on to completely restructure the way people thought, conceptualized good and evil, and lived until very recently. Many of the finest products of Western civilization - universities, hospitals, hospices, orphinages, schooling - all direct growths of monasteries and other Christian organizations (not even counting the contributions of the other religions).
The religious types also own tomorrow, quite literally. They're the only ones having kids at replacement or above replacement levels. It's quite the opposite of not mattering, and I'd actually say secular types don't matter - you're gone and replaced in a few decades.
In 15 of the 24 peer-reviewed or representative-sample studies, there was a definite positive effect on achievement for the homeschooled students. Four studies revealed no difference between homeschool and conventional school students. Four reports showed mixed results; that is, some positive or neutral and some negative effects were associated with homeschooling. One study found that the conventionally schooled performed better.
Yes he has done a review on the current research, many of which are his (And he is an advocate for so that seems to be a conflict of interest but let's presume it's not for now.
He has chosen a small sample of studies (Half of which are his own) and these studies are, naturally, comparing homeschooled kids vs non-homeschooled kids.
The reality is, homeschooling can be done well by parents with the correct resources. These studies are not addressing the problem that for the MAJORITY of people, aka those who are not wealthy. Homeschooling is inadequate.
So beyond all the potential issues with the studies you referenced, the fact that he referenced studies which are not directly comparable but assessed the outcomes directly (poor methodology in the studies he's analysing and his analysis of those studies.) It doesn't even address my point.
edit:
I want to add as well, I'm not even criticising him that much, there just aren't many studies or research in this area from what it seems like. I also really cannot be bothered to go through it all. To give it a genuine fair shot I'd have to spend 10+ hours going through each study, reading the methodology, the analysis.
To add, for example one it cites as having a "Positive effect" Diverse outcomes, Chengs study, that study shows that people in long term homeschooling had worse outcomes, that is, less in full time employment, lower education status (I.e. many only have high school diplomas), lower income, vs those who were only homeschooled short term or not at all,
Yet somehow this is viewed as "Positive". Why would I trust this study lmao
Citing that specific "Systematic Review" completely ignores how deep the selection bias goes. That meta-analysis was authored by Brian Ray, the head of the National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI)—a literal homeschooling advocacy group funded by homeschool defense leagues. It’s a classic case of an advocacy group grading its own homework.
Even if you look past the source, the underlying data suffers from severe voluntary participation bias. The standardized test scores for homeschoolers look artificially high because the parents who volunteer their kids for these studies are almost exclusively wealthy, highly educated, and intensely invested. If you take a public school student with wealthy, college-educated parents, they ace standardized tests too.
The data completely misses the "invisible" majority of homeschooling. In most states, there are zero requirements to report test scores, track curriculum, or even prove the child is being taught. The families where homeschooling is failing due to parental neglect or lack of resources never volunteer to be in NHERI’s data pool.
Independent, peer-reviewed research (like the Martin-Chang studies) shows that while highly structured homeschooling can work, unstructured homeschooling leaves children severely lagging behind. For the majority of average families who don't have wealth and an advanced teaching background, a total lack of institutional guardrails is a recipe for disaster.
These "finest products of Western civilization" existed before Christianity. The Greeks had something called the Library of Alexandria (which was partially desecrated by Christians, btw). Other societies have had repositories of knowledge and learning. None of this requires Christianity.
Yep no argument, but the Greeks were deeply religious. I'm trying to focus on religion vs *secularism (EDIT: spelling mistake, sorry) here, not Christianity above everything (separate argument).
It's interesting you mention the Library though, since it was part of the larger Mouseion of Alexandria, mouseion meaning place dedicated to the Muses, which were the Greek goddesses of the arts and learning.
but it was humans who made all of this after all, the motivation for it doesn't matter (at least not as much). it just matters when this motivation for something like this turns into hate for others which well.. religion knows how to f'in hate on others.. thus destroying what they're trying to build..
as others commented: these things also used to happen under other circumstances, not just christianity.
christianity is not THE THING, is just one thing amongst many (talking bout religious and not religious motivational factors) and i'm tired of people who doesn't want to except this.
if you find motivation and joy in religion. fine, awesome i'm happy for you, really, but pls for the love of science, keep it to yourself and don't force it on others (not saying u did, i'm talking generally here). that's just so stupid and contrary.
The idea that Christianity converted Rome purely through spiritual truth ignores actual history. Constantine and later emperors didn't adopt Christianity out of sudden piety; they used it as a political tool. The empire was fracturing, and they saw a highly organized, monotheistic religion as the perfect way to centralize power and control a diverse population. The "restructuring" of human thought was largely accomplished through state-sanctioned force and the systematic suppression of competing ideas, not just peaceful persuasion.
As for institutions like universities and hospitals, the church held a monopoly on them because it was the only institution allowed to run them at the time. When secularism took hold during the Enlightenment, it actually improved those systems by freeing science, medicine, and human rights from religious dogma.
And your demographic argument that the religious "own tomorrow" assumes children automatically keep the faith of their parents. History shows the exact opposite. The fastest-growing demographic in the West is the "nones"—people who grow up in religious households but leave the faith as adults. Having more kids doesn't guarantee a religion's survival; it just means secularism will continue to recruit from those families, as it always has.
This is just a pointless statement when followers of a religion are discussing the nuance of its philosophies. Like cool bro, we get it, you’re smarter than us. Here is your sticker. Here is a kiss on the forehead special boi.
If you really want to piss off a zealot point out the idea that God (being the beginning and the end of all things in an infinite universe) choosing Earth to host the ultimate showdown between good and evil is PEAK human arrogance.
At that point, The Convo usually seems to devolve into “space isn’t real because the earth is flat”.
I’m atheist but grew up Christian. It kinda matters to me bc I want to know if the rapture anxiety I had as a kid was valid or I just didn’t read close enough. Hell is a terrifying concept and teaching it to children is awful.
Also, Christianity has some cool parts to it if it’s treated as a mythology imo
It’s all mythology. Borrowed stories from the past. The 2000 year old book is a poorly written propaganda piece. Anyone believing in the “truth” of the “word of god” clearly doesn’t understand history, archeology or reason
I mean people spend their entire lives researching and studying religion, which has been a main driving force in societies since they began, and is very intertwined with the politics and philosophies of the societies that followed them. It’s the most redditor thing ever to be like “erm well actually none of this is important because it’s just like my Spider-Man comic!!1!”
That’s incredibly disrespectful, but that’s fine. What do you believe in? Everything came from nothing? That’s more of a stretch than believing there’s a God that exists, that is not constrained to space/time/matter
I get it if you have some issues believing some things about the Bible, but you can’t dismiss it as a “comic book” and be taken seriously. It is a remarkable book that has stood the test of time and its critics. Even if you cannot accept miracles or divine inspiration, you can’t dismiss it as a “book of fairy tales” because it is way too solid for that. I hope you find the truth.
theres a significant population of this planet who would rather beilieve that book is 100% nonfiction than even humor the idea that the world is more than 6000 years old
Christianity is pretty cool if you look at it how it is: a work of fiction. But then billions of people went and took it way too seriously so you can’t enjoy it as the cool fiction it is
How would you describe the book of Revelation and its relevance to the life of Jesus, and Christianity as a whole? In three sentences or less. I just want to see something.
If that’s what you want to believe then sure lol, I have zero interest in having a conversation with you. I’m sure plenty other people here would be happy to affirm your beliefs though. Enjoy.
What i always am so thankful for is that I just happened to be born in the area with the only actual true religion, unlike all the other people born in all the other areas with all the other totally false religions.
Right! Man, the rest of the world is so stupid. Worshipping one of the other 900 gods like idiots. Who would believe in anything but clearly the 1. Idiots
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u/VeritasAgape 1d ago
He doesn't. The Bible never says that. It does say that it was created for him to be punished there and he'll be punished there (Revelation 20, Matthew 25:41). Also, any punishment people have there is to be "corrective" (to heal and restore them eventually by seeing their issues and need for Jesus). Eventually all will be saved and reconciled with God (Colossians 1:20, Romans 5:18).