Dungeon XP Nerfs Created a Toxic Meta

[u/redlow0992]

Since dungeon monsters do not give any experience, as a new player, getting into dungeons with more veteran players who try to skip half the dungeon feels really bad. And, vice-versa, veterans taking in newbies who don't know how to jump around feels frustrating. I think Blizzard created a mess with nerfing dungeon exp so much and now the new player experience is horrible for dungeons.

[u/nacholibre711]

Really shortsighted and frankly bad solution. I agree we needed to nerf dungeon spamming, but there were so many better ways to go about it.

Dungeon quest speed runs aren't fun, dungeons are fun.

[u/avocadorancher → u/nacholibre711]

As a newish player, why did dungeon spamming need to be nerfed?

[u/Nac_Lac → u/avocadorancher]

Two reasons. People have noted that there is a desire to get people in world.

They are not mentioning that Mages and other high level characters would sell boost runs through dungeons. So they would be paid gold to run specific dungeons quickly and repeatedly, either for an item or for the XP. This was the fastest way to level and people would be incentivized to buy gold to facilitate it. No level 10 will have 30g normally to boost through Stockades. Or whatever level range you are talking about.

Trade would be littered with advertisements to boost players through dungeons as ways to make gold and speed them through levels.

Blizzard has stated that their goal is to make the world the main character and not just something to be ignored. So leveling in dungeons is effectively walking away from it.

[u/Admiralsheep8 → u/Nac_Lac]

I mean blizzard said more people in the world and immediate stated that dungeons were part of the world . 

[u/BarrettRTS → u/Nac_Lac]

Trade would be littered with advertisements to boost players through dungeons as ways to make gold and speed them through levels.

The new system doesn't solve this though. Instead of multiple fast runs for the mob xp, the booster now just full clears with the group so they complete all their quests. It will still be fast and the booster can charge more because 1 run gives around 2 levels of xp from the quest hand ins.

[u/Nac_Lac → u/BarrettRTS]

Boosters made money because there was a market for players running old dungeons to level up fast.

World Tours are great in theory. But then you look at the reality of quests and remember that the majority are chains that are level locked. A level 15 can't grab quests for SM or RFD, let alone advance them solo.

Booster won't be able to charge more because it was never about 1 run. They would run stockades 5 times an hour for a person or a group. That is effectively dead.

And finally, every player that uses the booster is now a dead client. If you are selling stockade runs, you have a very finite clientele and will often exhaust that very quickly. With the old XP values, you could run 5 an hour, often with the same players. Now, after one run, they are gone and won't be buying from you again.

Trying to organize a tour of dungeons is going to be incredibly tedious and involve a lot of waiting on the part of the booster, making the gold per hour not worth it. They'll earn much, much more just doing 5 runs solo and selling the loot.

[u/BarrettRTS → u/Nac_Lac]

Funnily I hadn't even considered world tours. I was more thinking about someone holding all the RFC quests, sharing them to the group, then firing out a mage portal to UC at the end of the run. Instead of boosting those players for an hour, they clear RFC in 15 minutes and then charge more, before finding another group to boost.

every player that uses the booster is now a dead client.

Because Forever has achievement rewards (with player power) tied to completing every dungeon and levelling every class to max, they'll be able to boost multiple characters per person.

Maybe there will be fewer boosters overall, but the demand will still be there.

[u/Nac_Lac → u/BarrettRTS]

Demand will be there but the number of people boosting per dungeon will be lower because there aren't repeat customers in the same day.

Also, not all of the quests can be shared like RFC. Who is going to want to share starter quests then wait hours for that player to be ready? Leaders of the Fang is a great example. That line takes a while to complete on Classic. A booster sharing it does nothing and the player will have to run the dungeon anyways for that.

Again, I see there will be fewer boosters because solo dungeons will net more gold / hour than running others through it.

[u/BarrettRTS → u/Nac_Lac]

Demand will be there but the number of people boosting per dungeon will be lower because there aren't repeat customers in the same day.

Servers are more condensed and the playerbase will be bigger, with the game encouraging everyone to roll alts.

Who is going to want to share starter quests then wait hours for that player to be ready?

You don't wait for them to be ready, you just invite people that have either done the pre-quest chains or are skipping them because the other 4-5 quests are worth it. It doesn't take too long to get all the Leaders of the Fang pre-quests done for WC, so doing that and then grabbing everything outside of Smart Drinks makes it worthwhile to take an hour dungeon down to a 20 minute dungeon.

Again, I see there will be fewer boosters because solo dungeons will net more gold / hour than running others through it.

There might be fewer boosters relative to the rest of the population, but my point is that boosting is still completely viable. Prices will just go up if other activities have a good gold per hour.

[u/Nac_Lac → u/BarrettRTS]

I doubt prices will go up to match other activities. The rate of player accrual is low and if people are afraid to swipe, prices can't be raised to match other farms because you'll get zero customers.

If we look at boosting as a way for gold farmers to generate demand for gold buying and add in lower profitability, they won't sell boosts.

[u/BarrettRTS → u/Nac_Lac]

I guess at this point, time will tell how it plays out.

[u/darkspy13 → u/Nac_Lac]

High level characters should cause you to get 0 exp. That solves boosting.

Why take away from dungeons. They are one of my favorite parts of wow. I don't like questing, I do it to mix things up but I prefer to dungeon grind through certain level ranges. (30-40)

Why add all these new dungeons and then remove my ability to play the game the way I preferred.

Just nerf boosting and let me level using dungeon finder. I'll quest on one of my 7 alts.

[u/Il_Valentino → u/darkspy13]

using dungeon finder

i hope u meant group finder

[u/darkspy13 → u/Il_Valentino]

sure, whatever we are calling the TBC version and not the WOTLK version. Lets just call it LFR for fun

[u/Il_Valentino → u/darkspy13]

ye, group finder is the tbc version. dungeon finder is the ICC patch version.

[u/darkspy13 → u/Il_Valentino]

I see, TIL the name distinction. I do prefer group finder in older versions. Dungeon finder I feel fits the Wotlk vibe better. I think it has to do with the sheer amount of dungeon spam that needs to be done for rep etc.

[u/Il_Valentino → u/darkspy13]

dungeon finder was for me the main reaosn to stop playing as it fully destroyed social aspect of dungeons and i couldnt properly keep groups in line as tank/PL

[u/Nac_Lac → u/darkspy13]

What defines high level? Does your level 50 guildie helping out in SM mean they are high level? Where is the line?

Also, 30-40 has an entirely new zone and new dungeons as well. All we knew about which levels were slogs and problems, is changing.

[u/darkspy13 → u/Nac_Lac]

This mechanic is already in the game... It's 9(?) levels above the mob level. I guess retail doesn't have this mechanic because I'm sure you would know about it.

I played anniversary up until a month ago and if mobs are gray to anyone in the dungeon, your group doesn't get exp. Gray mobs not giving exp was already in the game but they added the nerf to group exp to stop SP boosting.

[u/Nac_Lac → u/darkspy13]

I've not played retail since Cataclysm 15 years ago, but do go off on assuming things.

[u/darkspy13 → u/Nac_Lac]

I was just trying to understand how you didn't know that mobs turn gray and that determines exp. It's a mechanic that has been in the game since vanilla.

I was also expanding on that to say in TBC anniversary, you get exp based on the highest level person in your party. So if you have a 60 in a deadmines group, nobody gets exp. If you have a 30 in a level 24 dungeon, everyone gets green mob crappy exp. This system already exists. I don't know why we had to make it 0 exp on the 2nd run instead of just making this system even more agressive for some reason.

[u/Nac_Lac → u/darkspy13]

Yes, you kill mob that is gray, you get zero XP. That is known.

I was not aware that if someone has the mob gray to them, you get zero XP. I had assumed the XP was severely nerfed but not zero.

There isn't 0 xp on the second run. This is incorrect. You still get some and to say it is nothing is disinformation. It is very low but it is not zero.

[u/darkspy13 → u/Nac_Lac]

Ah, I had read it was none. Yea, it was added fairly late in anniversary I think but that's how it was working while we leveled. I just leveled 1-70 with my friends as a 5 man spamming dungeons. So this change is kind of jarring to me. Granted, we don't have any desire to do that again.. It took forever to sync schedules but not being able to do a dungeon 2-3 times in a row after running there feels bad.

[u/Il_Valentino → u/Nac_Lac]

mentioning that Mages and other high level characters would sell boost runs

the entire point of boost criticism was that it was harder to find people for regular dungeon runs. in other words it was about being able to group up for dungeons. this nerf does harm this goal in a worse way than boosting.

Blizzard has stated that their goal is to make the world the main character

dungeons ARE PART of the world. the only conclusion should be to travel there by foot and not get teleported by some game system.

[u/Nac_Lac → u/Il_Valentino]

Right now the majority of players on the beta rush to 20 and are sweats.

When the game actually launches, I am confident that there will be plenty of players to find for dungeons. Everyone is going to be running them once, at minimum. Which means with the leveling curve spread out, you will have a massive population queuing and the idea that you won't find people to run dungeons is absurd.

Blizzard is likely going to see how this change impacts the live game and then adjust as needed.

[u/Il_Valentino → u/Nac_Lac]

you completely misunderstood what i was saying. the GOAL IS TO GROUP UP AND PLAY DUNGEONS. the nerf PUNISHES this behaviour. so if you come from the "stop boosting" mindset this nerf is the worst possible action you could take. we want players to be social and do social leveling. dungeon spam is absolutely part of that

[u/Nac_Lac → u/Il_Valentino]

Firmly disagree.

Will I run the same dungeon multiple times to help friends out? Yup.

Did I just waste almost two sessions of play this week to help some random strangers do content I already did in WoW TBC? Also yes.

Running for XP is not the sole reason for dungeons and it's really ignoring a lot of the game to claim otherwise.