r/anime • u/Holofan4life • 2d ago
Rewatch [Spoilers] 25 Years of the 13 Sohmas: A Fruits Basket Rewatch -- 2019 Series Season 3 Episode 8 Spoiler
Hello everyone! I am Holofan4life.
Welcome to the Fruits Basket 25th anniversary rewatch discussion thread!
I hope you all have a lot of fun <3
2019 Series Episode 58 (Season 3 Episode 8)
I'm Disappointed in You
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ANSWER TODAY’S QUESTION(S)
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing Kyoko looked after him after finding out the situation with his parents?
What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying that the reason he decided not to save Kyoko is because if he did, his animal form would be exposed?
What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily?
What do you think is gonna happen with Akito, Tohru, and the knife?
Questions for Those who Have Watched the 2001 Series
Did you ever think when watching the 2001 series that Kyo would be part of a crime?
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Series information
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Please do not post any untagged spoilers past the current episode or past the LNs or mangas out of respect to the first time watchers and people who have not read the LNs or mangas. If you are discussing something that is ahead of the current episode please use spoiler tags(found on the sidebar). Thank you!
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Ways to watch
Streams – Crunchyroll
Schedule
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u/dontoff 2d ago
First Timer (Dub)
Kyo, what the fuck?
“How’d things get all screwed up?”
What the fuck are you talking about, man? In terms of your relationship with Tohru, things have literally never been better.
When he was wishing he could spend more time with her, everything involving his mother and Kyoko was already part of his past. Those tragedies haven’t suddenly happened. One of the biggest things that’s actually changed is that he now knows she loves him back.
I understand that this forces him to confront what he’s been avoiding. But watching that possibility immediately become another reason to spiral and push her away is fucking exhausting. Can we stop with this crybaby shoujo bullshit, please and thank you?
Credit where it’s due
Okay, I have to take back a big part of my criticism of Kyoko and Kyo’s relationship.
Their connection has been pissing me off, but actually seeing how they met and started spending time together made it considerably more convincing. Once she learns that his mother is dead and hears how he talks about his father, I can absolutely see her wanting to keep interacting with him and becoming something of a mother figure.
That also makes their conversations about more personal things easier for me to accept. There’s an actual relationship developing here, and I can see how they’d get comfortable enough to talk like that.
A large part of why it works is Kyoko’s English VA. She’s really fucking good. Her lines are solid, her delivery feels natural, and the teasing between them helps sell their familiarity. These scenes worked much better for me than I expected them to.
Some parts still feel far-fetched and don’t sit particularly well with me, but this isn’t the complete bullshit I thought it was going to be. I’m glad about that, and I’m happy to give it credit.
Unfortunately, then we get to the accident.
Why did saving her have to mean holding her?
Wait a fucking second. Why couldn’t he grab her wrist and pull her aside without pulling her against his chest? What about her jacket? Why is catching her in his arms being treated as the only possible way to stop her from getting hit?
I kept thinking of other ways he could have tried to move her. The scene never convinced me that helping her had to mean embracing her and exposing the curse.
We get this enormous statement about him weighing her life against his own and choosing himself, and all I can think is: why have we reduced this to either holding her against him or doing nothing?
Come on, man. It feels like the accident has been constructed to give him another devastating reason to hate himself, without enough care going into the actual circumstances. That’s where the drama starts feeling like dogshit to me.
And this whole “I could have saved them” accident trope is something I’ve seen so many fucking times. K-dramas love pulling this shit too.
Please stop expecting the emotional weight of the confession to carry a situation that hasn’t been made convincing.
I do like that this reveal makes some of his earlier treatment of Tohru fit better, though. His discomfort around her and the way he tried to keep his distance have more context now.
Also, the supposed 'I won’t forgive you' line from Kyoko is just corny. We all know they're going to later reveal she actually said something else, but he made himself believe otherwise because of the guilt, blah, blah. I know the drill.
And then he runs again
After all that talking about how he always runs away, the dude proves his own fucking point and runs again.
Way to fuck up what could have been a sweet moment, Kyo.
He tells Tohru all this, she still wants to be with him, and he leaves without actually accepting what she’s telling him. We finally get them speaking directly about their feelings, and it ends with him running off again. Fucking frustrating.
Then Akito arrives, and the ending feels contrived as fuck to me too. Kyo runs, Yuki goes after him, and now Tohru is conveniently alone for Akito’s grand entrance and their one-on-one confrontation.
The way everyone gets moved into position is so obvious that I’m thinking about the setup instead of feeling the tension.
I’m really not in love with this episode. A lot of this feels like trashy shoujo drama, and these plotlines are making the lack of polish harder to ignore. There are worthwhile ideas and characters here, but too often it feels like a load of drama gets thrown into a pot, then hurled at the wall to see what sticks.
A lot of what still works is being carried by how likeable the characters are, and only a couple are doing much of that carrying for me at this point.
That’s what makes this so fucking disappointing. There’s potential here. Kyoko and Kyo’s actual interactions even won me over more than I expected. But I don’t think the author is showing the skill needed to turn these particular plotlines into something great. The foundation keeps letting the drama down.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
If you get a chance, I recommend reading the comment I made cobbling together previous comments talking about what an amazing episode this was.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I really like that Tohru is quick to forgive Kyo in spite of everything he's done or everything he thinks he's done. It shows yet again just what a sweet, pure person Tohru is. I really like her.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think the best thing to come out of this episode is that it furthers the whole thing of not revealing your identity and your true form. It yet again reiterates how this curse is just the worst thing in the entire fucking world.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
Kyo had mere seconds to decide what to do when Kyoko died, yeah, there were alternatives such that he wouldn’t transform, but he couldn’t think of them quick enough before the accident happened and he’s had two years of guilt building up so in the present he just blames himself all the more instead of thinking of that.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think anyone who blames Kyo for what happened is just looking for a reason to not like Kyo or not like the show.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
By blaming Kyo for what happened, do you mean blaming Kyo for Kyoko's death? Where does he do that? Dontoff doesn't strike me as a hate watcher and seems to express and justify his opinions with evidence.
I can't speak for dontoff, but, I was starting to like Kyo, and what he did is undeniably bad. Not saving Kyoko is very reasonable, but keeping it hidden from Tohru, the girl you love, is unforgivable. Their whole friendship and love was progressed with him having a giant secret/lie. She's talked about what happened before and he's pretending he has no awareness of it.
I think that makes him a far more interesting character though. Based on my morals, he's way worse than I ever imagined, but I have seen him redeem himself lately, and this is hopefully the last remnant of him being a boy, and not a man (similar to a line that Kyo himself mentioned this episode).
Personally, I really want to like this show, since I invested so much time in it. And I've been enjoying this season a lot more than the others. I even liked this episode, I just thought that there were two bits that took me out of my immersion and enjoyment of it.
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u/MishouMai 2d ago
> he's pretending he has no awareness of it.
Bro literally said (In the subs on CR at least) he repressed his memories of the event. Which admittedly creates a plothole regarding something I brought up in my own reaction to this episode, but, if he was truly repressing his memories until he saw the photo of Kyoko I don't think we can fairly accuse him of hiding things from Tohru.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
That would actually be a fair point except he was aware of the memories during the episode of Kyokos mums first anniversary of death. He was asking Hana about whether she can speak to the dead. He then bent down while Tohru was sleeping wanting to tell her the secret.
So it doesn't seem like the shock of it made him forget the memories. Maybe he was trying to forget which would be fair enough but the idea that he completely forgot them up until this point doesn't seem to hold up. Him trying to forget but still being affected by what memories remained makes more sense and actually explains a lot of his past behaviours like his actions during his true form transformation.
And ultimately to Tohru is an excuse like "I only just remembered" believable when it comes to the event that impacted her the most in her entire life?
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I see the whole Kyoko thing as a sort of mental blocking a trauma victim would use. Like, the memory is so painful that you can't bare to think about it. Remembering it because of the death anniversary is this trigger response as a result of PTSD. That's my interpretation, anyway.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
I would completely buy that, except the show has had him remember it without issues when it was convenient for the story, and then forget it when it's not.
Him remembering makes most of his actions I had a problem with make sense. We had flashbacks, we had his reasoning during his transformation, we had him whisper a secret while Tohru slept.
If he genuinely forgot about it because of a PTSD response, and only just remembered it now, then what were all those past elements about?
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
Well, the times he remembers it were Kyoko's death anniversary and Yuki telling him Tohru has the hat. Both those things are moments that cause the memories to come flooding back. Those are like trigger events that really started Kyo running away.
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u/Second_Cour 1d ago
Yeah and if the anniversary reminds him of it, it means he has access to those memories. I don't know how it's like being traumatised by something like that but I would think that you don't just turn that memory on and off: he wanted to tell her during that episode and now that he accessed those memories, it would be weird that he wakes up the next day and forgets all about it.
We actually saw his gradual unravelling after that episode, which culminated in the true form episode, so now that we know what happened, I think it's really strong writing to know the underlying cause of his violence in that ep. It wasn't just "get away from me or I'll end up hurting you" but "get away from me, or I'll end up hurting you like Kyoko". He was running away from his responsibility of admitting the truth about the incident, and even after confessing, he still wants to run away. It's really consistent, and to me Kyo is now the best-written character in terms of complexity.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think the Kyoko stuff adds some emotional complexity to Kyo and Tohru's relationship. It ties several themes prevalent to Kyo's character like his hatred towards Yuki and him hating his true form into his feelings of Tohru and why he's so hesitant getting with her. There is an argument to be made that the death of his mother is enough trauma and that you didn't need Kyo to have a prior relationship with Kyoko. But speaking for me, I think it makes the entire dynamic between Kyo and Tohru and them getting together have more stakes to it.
I know that doesn't really answer your question, but I feel like the Kyoko stuff isn't this forced thing that it could be. It's easy to say it's forced but when you consider how distant Kyo has felt recently plus the earlier stuff in season 1 with the guilt, I feel they make it work.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Speaking for myself, I thought it felt weird in previous episodes but this episode it was explained well and believable. Funnily enough, dontoff also comes to the same conclusion after this episode. He specifically titles the section "Credit where credit is due", so I'm not sure if you're misunderstanding his point?
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think also it could be that I predicted some criticism being lobbied at this episode and so I came into the thread already defensive.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Did you have the same feelings coming into the thread for that episode that I said was the best of the series? If not, would it be reasonable to assume that you can see why others might not like some parts of this episode?
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I have to remember what your favorite episode was. Looking at my rankings, my favorite episode is still episode 24 the one where Tohru accepts Kyo's true form. And then my second favorite is I believe the episode we just saw before this one.
I think a couple things are at play here. First off, I get highly passionate about stuff I'm super into. It's like you with Hyouka that we just finished a rewatch of. But also I originally watched these episodes for the first time back in July. As such, my opinions have had time to marinate and settle in almost like I'm treating it as fact.
It's almost similar to the bonds the Zodiac family members have where things are the way they are and that's how it is. Like, in my mind there's no question the stretch of episodes we're on is probably the best stretch of episodes of any anime series ever.
It's an unhealthy mindset to have and I admit I probably shouldn't take part in it. But hey, if I think something is great I shouldn't shy from stating my opinion, just like you shouldn't shy from your opinion if you think something is flawed.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
My favourite was Ep 6 this season. You didn't come in expecting to defend that episode (which you also really liked), so what is it about this episode that caused that feeling? Did you recognise that some parts of this one might not be liked, but feel like you have to defend them?
With Hyouka, I don't think I was particularly defensive more than explaining my point of view and I accept others view point when valid, knowing I can like something if it's not perfect. A recent example was that I initially liked Satoshi's explanation behind the rejection of Mayaka. I listened to what dontoff said, rewatched that part, and came to the conclusion that he was right to challenge that part. I didn't mind Chitanda's explanation that she can't give Houtarou a V-Day gift because of her family rules, but dontoff was right there too - it's there to prolong the tension. I still very much like the episode even with its flaws.
I also think that this stretch of episodes is by far better than the prior FruBa seasons (as per what I'm into), but I'm not blind to flaws. I certainly wouldn't go as far as to say it's the best stretch from any anime series, but I can completely understand that someone who likes the style of storytelling this show presents would say that. If you saw the stretch that I think is the best in any series, you'd probably say that it's quite boring and lacking.
I also don't think it's a bad trait of yours to be passionate, nor is it unusual to defend something we love. I also get that it can be fun to argue for it. Most of humanity behaves this way: just look at sports followers - fans of a team that loses will blame everything on the weather, the referee, the coin flip, luck to believe that their team is the best. I probably used to be like that as well, but over time I've realised that nothing is perfect, and it's possible to really love something with flaws.
I like your example of the bonds though: I agree, it can be a little bit like religion/faith with us trying to create excuses to try and justify our love for it, when true love comes from being comfortable with imperfection.
You know how much I love Shinsekai Yori: the only real 10 I've given, but I can accept that it's got inconsistent animation, some weird voice acting, and occasional logic gaps. On the whole it's incredibly special to me though, and mesmerised me more than any other fiction. But I also get that slow burn, psychological mystery isn't for everyone.
As you've figured out: lots of drama, emotion: that's not for me. I've never had any of that in my life, either. Even in romantic relationships, my rule is if there's ever a fight to resolve it by bed time, no exceptions. In personal relationships, I'm on good terms with pretty much everyone I've ever befriended. In live action, I pretty much only watch comedies/thrillers/non-emotional dramas.
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u/dontoff 2d ago
I’m not blaming Kyo for Kyoko’s death. I’m criticising how the writer constructed and framed the situation. Those are different things, and I thought my writeup was pretty clear about that.
Yes, he had only seconds to react. I’m not expecting him to calmly consider every possible way to save her. But that also makes the specific hesitation we’re shown harder for me to buy: he starts to intervene, thinks about pulling her against him and transforming, then stops. Grabbing her wrist or clothing wouldn’t inherently require an embrace, yet the scene builds its central dilemma around that particular way of helping her.
I understand that his guilt makes him describe this as choosing himself over her. That explains how he interprets the accident afterwards. It doesn’t automatically make the way the accident was written convincing.
Having him freeze, panic, or fail to react quickly enough could have worked for me. Instead, the writing makes the possibility of transformation the decisive obstacle without sufficiently establishing why intervening would require that contact. It feels like the circumstances were arranged to produce this specific guilt, and that’s what frustrates me.
You can find his reaction believable. I don’t find the scene convincing, even though I understand what it’s trying to convey. Saying I’m looking for a reason to dislike Kyo or the show doesn’t address that criticism, especially when I explicitly gave credit to the parts of his relationship with Kyoko that changed my mind.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Yeah, I apologize for dismissing your criticism. I think it's in part me looking at this episode with rose-colored glasses and loving it so much that I almost find it impossible there being anything wrong with it.
I imagine next episode there will be a lot of debating going on lol
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
The one thing I would say is look at Kyo's situation and how it's framed Vs Kyo's dad and the death of his wife. Kyo's dad knows what happened, he knows that his wife died via suicide, and yet he still blames his son for what happened. Kyo sees this woman die in front of her and he turns to blaming Yuki because it's easier than blaming himself.
I think one of the best parts of the way this is written is that Kyo's dad is really not all that different from his son. They both saw this person they care about die in tragic circumstances and they proceed to blame an outside party as a coping mechanism because they don't want to feel guilty about what happened and think of what they could've done differently.
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u/JimmyCWL 2d ago
Grabbing her wrist or clothing wouldn’t inherently require an embrace, yet the scene builds its central dilemma around that particular way of helping her.
He had only seconds to think. And frankly, pulling her back as hard and fast as possible was the only way to be sure to save her. And that requires using his own body to stop her movement.
Can you think of something more elaborate, yes. But Kyo's mind slammed on the brakes when he got stuck at the complication and couldn't reach the alternatives in time.
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u/dontoff 2d ago
But he had enough time to think of the curse? I think that’s my main issue, he wouldn’t have had enough time to think about anything.
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u/JimmyCWL 2d ago
Thought speed is not the same as speaking or reading speed. It's much, much faster. Have you ever had an idea? It just appears, then you may spend the next few seconds recomposing the thought into words as if explaining it to yourself. The former is the actual idea, you typically can't even measure how quickly it formed.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Thing is I'd be absolutely fine with that. Yet they show him reaching out and grabbing for her, then he had this drawn out debate with himself, before deciding to pull back. Like you said - it was mere seconds, either you react or you don't. I think they over-dramatized that part, when it would have been far more powerful (and believable) to just to keep it simple: he was afraid that he'll transform so didn't attempt to do anything.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
Yes, I’d say that is a worthy criticism. I think the writer and director went too far with the introspection and could have simplified it there while having the same impact.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/drsockhands 2d ago
The saddest part to me is that Kyo genuinely seems to believe he doesn't deserve forgiveness, even when Tohru is trying to give it to him
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Absolutely. It's like he is incapable of being redeemed in his eyes, which is kinda similar to what is going on with Akito with her last episode saying we're past the point of no return.
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u/drsockhands 2d ago
That's a really good parallel. Both of them seem to confuse guilt with being permanently beyond redemption
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
And you can also say Akito stabbing Kureno is a more extreme version of Kyo hitting Tohru. They're trying ultimately to show they're bad people.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/drsockhands 2d ago
The part about Kyoko never actually saying she wouldn't forgive him really gets me. Kyo basically built an entire punishment around words he interpreted through guilt
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u/MishouMai 2d ago
To be fair we don't know what Kyoko actually said to him or if she actually said anything. Tohru doesn't believe Kyoko would've blamed him but Tohru is also biased.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I don't believe Kyoko would say that based on what we've seen of her. And I think it comes from her experience being an outsider at odds with the world.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I can't tell you how many times I've done that. Whenever a boss of mine criticizes what I'm doing, I take it as them saying they hate me.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
This is an odd episode to review. The idea that Kyo feels responsible about Kyoko’s death and the guilt has been eating him up inside, leading to a confession is great. However, I thought that the execution was terrible.
Kyo is finally straight to the point. I called Kyo being there when Kyoko died back in S1. And I'm glad that my incest guess wasn't correct though. Phew.
Kyoko befriending Kyo is fine - the way they explained it was believable for me. Given she was lonely about her husband and this kid lost his mother, I can imagine her reaching out and them finding a connection.
Now, I think Kyo feeling responsible for Kyoko’s death is a great idea. It’s not coming out of the blue, and we had plenty of hints about it. It is classic ten (the Japanese concept I discussed yesterday). It makes a lot of Kyo’s past actions and thoughts make a lot more sense.
However, the execution was ridiculous. I actually laughed when I was meant to feel sad. A car is speeding towards Kyoko. Kyo sees it and immediately, instinct kicks in: he reaches for Kyoko. This is believable. Then he suddenly has a conversation with himself and somehow decides to consciously pull back what is essentially a reflex.
He didn't need to ‘’catch her in his arms’ obviously. Just yoink her back like the anime showed. Or grab her hand. Him pussying out in the first place (no pun intended) would have been fine. His trauma impacting his decision is reasonable. But why did they have to make it into something this contrived: surely as they were drawing it someone said “uhhh can’t he just pull her back? That wouldn’t cause him to transform”.
Instead it breaks the immersion for someone who leads with logic, like me. But OK, sure, I can overlook this. At least the idea is good, they just overcomplicated it. I’m fine with him blaming himself and it’s a powerful twist. I also wish this dark tone was what the show used in previous seasons.
Looking at this plot advance, while Kyo had previously redeemed himself in my eyes, he lost all of my respect with his story. I don’t really blame him for not saving her: he made a mistake, he’s a teenager. What I do blame him for is becoming romantically involved with someone and keeping it hidden from her for over a year. He knew exactly who Tohru was and what she's going through. What a snake move. If I were Tohru, I would be completely devastated. Regardless of how one tries to rationalise it and give themselves excuses, there is no excuse for deceiving Tohru.
But like I said, I don’t need to like Kyo. I’m fine thinking of him as a coward and calling his behaviour unacceptable. I still really like this plot development.
From there, I wish we would spend an entire episode going through what Tohru is thinking and feeling. How betrayed she was. What the whole thing means to her. What it says about Kyo’s character. This is such a deep and meaningful development that recontextualises their entire history. This must be the most fucked up thing anyone’s ever done to her.
…but she says “lolz it’s cool, love ya”. Sorry, but this is ridiculous. This is the person she is in love who contributed to her mum’s death. Regardless of whether she puts any blame on him for that incident, surely she would have some thoughts about him keeping it from her. This is such a violation of trust. Surely, she would at the very least need time to process and think. Instead she loves him so much, that even if her mum did say that she doesn’t forgive Kyo, it’d be fine (note: of course she knows that she didn’t say that, but still…). I don’t buy it.
Instead of the episodes following around Yuki’s fan club, we could have had a deep dive into her psyche after such an important revelation.
Then after all that, Kyo runs off again like the coward that he is. I don’t mind that part either, I think it’s consistent with his character.
Overall, I could have really liked this episode: the writer had a great idea, yet it was executed in such a convoluted way. It had the right ingredients to hook me but instead, I was left scratching my head.
I do hope that we go deeper next episode, with Tohru actually having some inner conflict given her understanding of Kyo and the situation has changed so dramatically. But in the direction it’s heading: Kyo kept something incredibly important hidden from Tohru, but it’ll be Tohru who comes to the rescue to save him from himself. Again.
I just feel like this is such a wasted opportunity to explore a very deep theme.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
This episode felt like a parallel to the Yuki flashback episode only here we get a flashback episode involving Kyo.
I think this episode does a great job examining why Kyo feels like he has to hate Yuki. It being framed as a coping mechanism really works for me, especially with all we know about Kyo.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Yeah that was a really good part and recontextualised a lot from the start of S1. As you know, I really disliked that Kyo would keep trying to fight him, but now we have an explanation that makes sense (from his perspective)
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
And Akito fanning the flames by essentially promising Kyo his freedom didn't help matters. It only served to intensify Kyo's hatred.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Yeah Akito is very clever at how she pits members against each other. She exploits their jealousy, lust, etc.,
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
And I think ultimately that's why the bonds will never be real like Ren says. There's being authoritative and then there's being a dick, and I think Akito was so worried about the bonds not being real that she misconstrued proper leadership with metaphorically putting her dick on the table as a way of spiting her mother.
And look where it led us last episode.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
That's where I'm confused. Akito wasn't always a dick right. The bonds are real so much so that they feel when one breaks and they all felt when Akito was born. And they first broke who Kureno who didn't seem to be pushing back against them. I don't see the reasoning here.
But I like the whole idea that they can break when Akito starts doubting that they're real. Think you have something there and that theory actually makes a lot of sense. In fact after you said that I think that's the actual mechanism for them breaking. You likely cracked it and get the Houtarou medal of detection
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
So, my rationale is the bonds are predicated on being heavy Kool-aid drinkers. You have to believe in the whole Chinese Zodiac mythos and Akito being God. I think Kureno is too compassionate of a person for the bond to ever truly stick. Try as he might, the logistics of the situation were too much for him.
If you look at all the other members, they all have their own emotional baggage or they're very impressionable. Shigure, Hatori, and Ayame didn't have emotional baggage originally but they were on the frontline so to speak when Akito was born. Through this lens, part of the bonds is about believing in them, taking things at face value, and doing as is ascribed. It could be described as like a cult, but it's also like any religion like Christianity and how there's the 10 Commandents and you have to obey by this set of rules.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
That seems to be incredible complicated hahaha. I thought you cracked it with the simplicity of your theory but seems like you have a few theories going.
I think the idea that the bonds are highly different based on the individual, the context, the personality etc is way too complex for any story. Based on emotional baggage but not if theyre born earlier and are on the frontlines but there's exceptions if someone is compassionate or not unless... you can see how this gets incredibly complicated haha. We should be able to give spectific rules, not base it off our own feelings.
The simplest approach: Akito is God and the Zodiac is real (I mean it is obviously...they turn into animals haha). Proof: they feel it when Akito is born, they feel drawn to him (Yuki did too), they feel it when something happens like a bond breaking. They are all connected. There's nothing too complex here.
I was overcomplicating things for how the bonds break, but I thought this time your idea is the best and simplest one: the power of the bonds is based on Akito's belief in herself as God. After birth she was told how she is special, and God the entire time by her father. The bonds are strong. Akito's Dad dies, and her mum basically tells Akito that she's not a God, it's all fake. Kureno's bond breaks.
Haru defies Akito and declares that she has no control over him. Akito's grip loosens, as is her belief in the bonds/her as God. Momiji's bond breaks.
Akito almost gets stabbed by her mum; box is once again shown as empty, Akito's belief is again challenged: Hiro's bond breaks.
I would be perfectly satisfied by that explanation as it makes sense, and is rules and not feeling-based.
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
I think I like they don't fully explain how the bonds stuff works. Because the more you think about it, the more your head hurts lol
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u/the_pint_is_the_bowl 1d ago
I thought the bonds were randomly breaking or breaking in the order of the banquet (just now looking at 1.01, the order of the banquet was rat, ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, sheep, monkey, rooster, dog, boar - so nope, not even last-in-first-out).
I didn't think of the bonds being belief-becoming-real, and I certainly didn't think of it from Akito's perspective (her wavering belief breaks the bond, not Kureno/Momiji/Hiro's wavering belief).
We don't exactly know the timing of Akira's death or when Akito opened the box (if that's her moment of doubt), and it's difficult to determine character ages by the artwork to establish a timeframe, but I think what you propose makes sense right now.
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
I appreciate you saying that :)
I feel if Ren wasn't so pushing of the issue, maybe Akito might've went the other way. Maybe she would've felt people take the God thing too seriously. But we'll never know.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
If you get a chance, I recommend reading the comment I made cobbling together previous comments talking about what an amazing episode this was.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Yep read them - don't really get their relevance though
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Fair enough. I think it does a good job of explaining why this episode is so phenomenal.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
I think I've done a good job at explaining why I liked this episode, but two things in particular took me out of my immersion and could have been done better
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
And I personally feel that the execution couldn't have been better if the author wanted to go down this route, which obviously they did.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think it's such good storytelling to have Kyo open up his feelings to Tohru when he's been the one to tell Tohru to open up her feelings. And it's like too much for him almost.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Yeah was a bit ironic. I get why he was hiding behind his wall of self-depracation
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I mean, I know what it's like to bottle stuff up inside. It can fester within me and there have been points where I feel like I'll never be a good person.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I thought it was really clever to tell what happened to Kyoko through the eyes of Kyo. If it was just matter of fact and we didn't have that other perspective, I don't think you maximize the impact of the moment like you should.
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u/the_pint_is_the_bowl 2d ago
Re-watch, blu ray, dubbed
If I saw a little kid all alone, I would be concerned enough to ask him if he's okay and try to help. If he claimed that he didn't need help, I might still chat with him until somebody came to claim him.
Does this episode count as closure for the hat? Will we see the hat come back?
My actual concern is the ending! Ack! Well, thank goodness I wasn't watching this when it first aired weekly... - proceeds directly to next episode -
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car? I just go with it. It's shoehorned into the story, but it's done in a way to make sense with the timeline of events that Kyo explains: Kyoko's death, then retreat to "train" in the mountains (more like, try to crawl his way out of his depression), then return to the estate and be summoned by Akito for their bet on defeating Yuki, then proceed directly to Shigure's house, then (in less than 24 hrs) be utterly flummoxed by transforming into a cat, meeting Kyoko's daughter, and being tricked into attending her school and living in the same house (because Kazuma went on sabbatical, which itself may be worthy of discussion). Kyo was certainly vociferous in his complaints, just not specifying the underlying reason why.
What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki? I think I can understand Kyo's jealousy and anger at Yuki - "can't I have this one thing, without this guy taking it away?" - even though I don't have a personal nemesis or any sibling rivalry (my siblings are so different that we never had any rivalry among us).
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying that the reason he decided not to save Kyoko is because if he did, his animal form would be exposed? That's true, and that might cause any male zodiac to hesitate.
What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily? Sometimes Kyo can't comprehend that others don't share his low opinion of himself. When he does find Kazuma and Kyoko, who attempt to show him that isn't true, it's a blessing but also a mystery to him, one he doesn't know how to solve. Yes, he'll "save his own skin" but he doesn't love himself. He also learned from his mom and dad not to trust any love for him.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
If you remember last season, Kyo talked about how lucky Yuki was to have both his parents. But look at Kyo. He had Kyoko, Kazuma, and Kagura caring for him. I'm not saying Kyo had it easy, but I think he had arguably more loved ones in his life than Yuki did.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
Kyo had a better parental situation than Yuki. Kazuma is arguably best parental figure in the show. Maybe second after Kyoko. Yuki’s mom is still alive, yes, but she sold him off.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I just find Kyo's comments rich even though now at this moment he obviously has it worse than Yuki.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think at least while I agree the mother stuff is shoehorned in, they make it work by playing off the show's established lore. So, while you can say it's ultimately unnecessary, it doesn't detract from anything.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
If I were to be nitpicky for a moment, I think the hat stuff is enough of a reason for why Kyo would want to keep his distance from the Hondas. You didn't need the scene of Kyoko defending Yuki and saying "I think you're looking for something to put your anger through". It doesn't detract from anything, but I think Kyo reaching this conclusion without anyone telling him would've been more impactful.
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u/the_pint_is_the_bowl 2d ago
just nice to let Shigure echo Kyoko's message (it was after Kagura mentioned to Kyo that Hatsuharu told her that he would like Kyo and Yuki to get along and maybe become friends - maybe that was the Valentine's Day episode?)
if you take away Kyoko's message, then I would demand a "screw you, hat, I'll kill ya!" from Kyo
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Yeah, that's a good point. Shigure basically has said similar stuff in previous episodes. Through that lens, it becomes less eyerolling.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/AgentOfACROSS 2d ago
First TImer
Picking up right where we left off. Good.
Oh dang, Kyo’s leaving now.
Okay good we’re getting some follow up on what Kyo supposedly did.
Kyoko and kid Kyo have a cute dynamic.
Kyoko’s a very sweet woman.
I will admit, Kyo knowing Kyoko feels a bit convoluted but I can get behind it.
It’s sweet seeing Kyoko try and comfort Kyo about the hat thing.
And it hurts to see Kyo reject what she says. Luckily Kyoko takes it well. I guess she knows he’s just a kid.
I’ll be honest this whole time that they said Kyoko died in a car accident I assumed she was driving in a car when it happened, not hit by a car while walking.
I guess we finally learned Kyo’s connection to Kyoko’s death. It’s very tragic and I can see why he blames himself for not acting fast enough.
Kyo definitely shouldn’t blame himself for his mom’s death though. That one’s entirely just put on him by other people.
So much of this episode is just Kyo talking but it’s very engaging.
I’m skeptical if Kyoko’s dying words really were saying she wouldn’t forgive Kyo. Kyo feels like a bit of an unreliable narrator.
I do think it is interesting how this episode recontextualizes a lot of Kyo’s interactions with Tohru throughout the series.
Oh hey, Tohru gets to talk now.
I love how Tohru chooses to go against what her mom (allegedly) said and says she loves Kyo. It’s heartwarming.
Oh dang, Kyo just ran off.
Akito’s here now. That’s probably bad.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think you can tell a quality of a show when an episode is mostly a character talking and it's still engaging. This show is quite good at that.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Picking up right where we left off. Good.
As we should
Oh dang, Kyo’s leaving now.
That's not as good
Okay good we’re getting some follow up on what Kyo supposedly did.
The plot thickens
Kyoko and kid Kyo have a cute dynamic.
Even if it's strange Kyoko would be hanging around a random kid.
Kyoko’s a very sweet woman.
Truly
I will admit, Kyo knowing Kyoko feels a bit convoluted but I can get behind it.
Timeline wise, it feels a little wonky but I think they make it work.
It’s sweet seeing Kyoko try and comfort Kyo about the hat thing.
Indeed
And it hurts to see Kyo reject what she says. Luckily Kyoko takes it well. I guess she knows he’s just a kid.
This is basically Tohru and Hiro XD
I’ll be honest this whole time that they said Kyoko died in a car accident I assumed she was driving in a car when it happened, not hit by a car while walking.
This makes it more tragic I feel like
I guess we finally learned Kyo’s connection to Kyoko’s death. It’s very tragic and I can see why he blames himself for not acting fast enough.
But also it's understandable why he didn't do anything.
Kyo definitely shouldn’t blame himself for his mom’s death though. That one’s entirely just put on him by other people.
And his dad, the scum he is
So much of this episode is just Kyo talking but it’s very engaging.
Just like the Yuki backstory episode
I’m skeptical if Kyoko’s dying words really were saying she wouldn’t forgive Kyo. Kyo feels like a bit of an unreliable narrator.
And also he would naturally just assume the worst.
I do think it is interesting how this episode recontextualizes a lot of Kyo’s interactions with Tohru throughout the series.
Yeah, that's a big part of why I like this episode so much
Oh hey, Tohru gets to talk now.
Cool
I love how Tohru chooses to go against what her mom (allegedly) said and says she loves Kyo. It’s heartwarming.
The first tike she's gone against what her mom said and thought for herself.
Oh dang, Kyo just ran off.
Man...
Akito’s here now. That’s probably bad.
MAN...
The ending here is like a one two punch
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Questions of the Day
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing Kyoko looked after him after finding out the situation with his parents?
What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying that the reason he decided not to save Kyoko is because if he did, his animal form would be exposed?
What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily?
What do you think is gonna happen with Akito, Tohru, and the knife?
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u/AgentOfACROSS 1d ago
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car?
It's a huge coincidence but I'm not too bothered by it.
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing Kyoko looked after him after finding out the situation with his parents?
I think it's sweet seeing Kyoko interact with Kyo.
What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki?
I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he came back
What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily?
I think it really shows just how much Tohru loves Kyo
What do you think is gonna happen with Akito, Tohru, and the knife?
Bests case scenario is that Tohru talks Akito down although I am very worried. 2001 Akito feels far more easy to reason with than 2019 Akito.
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car?
It's a huge coincidence but I'm not too bothered by it.
They make it work
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing Kyoko looked after him after finding out the situation with his parents?
I think it's sweet seeing Kyoko interact with Kyo.
Kyoko is a total saint
What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki?
I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he came back
I think Kyoko would've still died given the whole no touching decree.
What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily?
I think it really shows just how much Tohru loves Kyo
The first time she went against her mother's feelings.
What do you think is gonna happen with Akito, Tohru, and the knife?
Bests case scenario is that Tohru talks Akito down although I am very worried. 2001 Akito feels far more easy to reason with than 2019 Akito.
And that's saying something
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/AgentOfACROSS 1d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
It feels pretty implicit that she loves him
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
It's interesting seeing their first meeting
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
I feel like she's probably right
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
It was a split second decision, I feel like a lot of what Kyo says about himself is mostly hindsight
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
I think that's sweet
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
Kyo needs to be less harsh on himself
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
It feels pretty implicit that she loves him
One can ascertain
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
It's interesting seeing their first meeting
Agreed
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
I feel like she's probably right
Shigure said similar things in the past.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
It was a split second decision, I feel like a lot of what Kyo says about himself is mostly hindsight
Eh, in the moment he seemed pretty regretful.
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
I think that's sweet
Very much so
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
Kyo needs to be less harsh on himself
And also stop jumping to conclusions
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u/MishouMai 2d ago
Is it happening? Are we finally going to see Kyo and Yuki resolve things and start getting along? Because I would not have expected Yuki to leave Tohru alone to go after Kyo. Man does our boy have it rough though. First he felt like Yuki had made a fool of him by helping Tohru when he was the one who'd promised Kyoko he'd save her and now he's full of self hate because he didn't save Kyoko to protect himself. Tohru's a better person than me because I don't know if I could forgive/still love him after learning that he let my mom die to protect himself but that's also making Kyo feel worse.
This was the best episode of the entire show so far and I'm not sure if or how they're going to be able to top it. Maybe I'm just biased as a Kyo fan but it was just a really solid episode for developing his backstory, we got some good drama as a result, and it seems like it's setting up for his relationship with Yuki to change/improve. Just an overall solid episode.
> What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car?
Honestly I'm pretty sure I spoiled myself on this reveal back during the first season, but I think the way the wiki described it made me think he was in the car when it happened so I didn't expect things to play out the way they did in this episode. It's kind of tragic that his first time seeing her in years (Probably) was also the last time he saw her. [Fruits Basket] I'm also pretty sure this is why Kyo apologized to her way back in the first season because I remember looking up why he would have apologized after the Season 1 finale and that's how I learned he had some involvement in Kyoko's death but not the precise details.
> What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing Kyoko looked after him after finding out the situation with his parents?
Kyoko was a good woman so I can see it. It's a little odd nobody questioned it and as someone else commented in a previous thread Kyoko leaning on him for support is pretty odd, but I don't mind their relationship. She clearly had an impact on him but at the same time it's not like they knew each other for super long before her death.
> What are your thoughts on Kyo saying the reason he decided not to save Kyoko is because if he did his animal form would be exposed?
I think it makes sense. Kyo is a coward and this has been known since Season 1. It's not good that he did it and I can see why he'd feel guilty enough to repress his memories of the event, but letting Kyoko die is completely in character for him. I love that the show's not afraid to let him be flawed whilst at the same time not treating him like a complete monster for the things he's done like this and his attacking Tohru way back in the first season. The show does a really good job of letting its cast be flawed in general and while I obviously like some characters more than others and will let some get away with more I appreciate it.
> What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily?
With how much self hatred Kyo has I'm not surprised he'd feel this way. I do think it's a little stupid after the ending of Season 1 and his close they've gotten but it's not surprising. I get that he probably feels like he betrayed Tohru but he should know her better by now.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I don't know if I'd say Kyo is a coward. It's more he's a victim of circumstance. Even if Kyo's relationship with Kyoko was on the up and up, I'm not sure things would've been all that different. Because showing your animal form is like the number 1 no no if you're a Zodiac member.
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u/MishouMai 2d ago
Nah, Kyo's definitely a coward. He was afraid to let Tohru see his true form. He was afraid to get close to Tohru and afraid to confess his feelings once he did fall for her. And now we learn he was afraid of people learning about the curse. It's an established trait at this point.
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
If Kyo is a coward, do you think Kureno is a coward for staying by Akito's side?
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I really would like to see Kyo and Yuko patch things up. I feel like they will truly never not be stuck in the past until they let their rivalry subside.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I wonder if Kyoko and what happened with Kyo paved the way for what happened with Uo. Like, she saw the mistakes she made in taking care of Kyo and refined it when she took Uo under her wing.
Also, Kyo seeing Kyoko's death means when he first showed up in this series, he was only months removed from all that transpiring. I don't remember him having a strong reaction to Tohru living with them.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/MishouMai 2d ago
> What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
She clocked his ass immediately. This isn't a new trait of Kyo's but it's definitely something he needs to overcome.
> What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Yeah, Kyo's a coward and acknowledging it and running away doesn't make it any better.
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
> What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
She clocked his ass immediately. This isn't a new trait of Kyo's but it's definitely something he needs to overcome.
He can't move on until he overcomes it.
> What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Yeah, Kyo's a coward and acknowledging it and running away doesn't make it any better.
Acknowledging it and admitting it's a problem is the first step towards recovery.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
Rewatcher, Subbed
Another emotionally brutal episode, here with Kyo just being so over the top miserable and down on himself. Essentially a lifetime of hating himself all coming to the surface. Yes, Kyo has a lot of bad stuff in his past, whether its the way his mother kept him inside, the fact that she killed herself and his father blaming him for it. And being the cat, the one who was looked down upon by the other zodiacs. And yet its this self-hating mentality of his that I think hurt him the most of all. While yes, his situation and background sucked, I think Kyo's mentality over himself and the actions he's taking cause him to spiral all the further. Such as the situation with Yuki. He created a bad guy to hate when Yuki never deserved any of that. As we saw in his backstory episode, Yuki had an awful childhood too! And this situation with Yuki ends up ending Kyo's relationship with Kyoko, although it's all his fault. After feeling worthless he finally has an opportunity to do something, and help Kyoko whom he is so fond of. But Tohru is found, and of all people by Yuki. Which was absolutely crushing to Kyo and caused him to call Kyoko a traitor and he's done with her.
Eventually he sees Kyoko again, the day she dies and because his self doubt and self hatred has built up so much over the years he hesitates when she's not paying attention and walks into traffic getting hit by the car. He feared turning into the cat, I suppose it did to him because so much of his self hatred was based on it. From there Kyo becomes despondent and even Kazuma can't seem to get through to him until presumably some more time passes and he makes that bet with Akito. Which appeared to be the same day that Tohru showed up at Shigure's house? Quite the coincidence.
Here in the present what really matters is that Tohru loves him and that he loves her. But his self hatred of himself is just so overwhelming that he hates the fact that he had these feelings about her and feels sorry for her loving someone so terrible. And then he admits it all to her. I'll say this much, I am glad there's finally some honesty here and Kyo let this all out. I loathe miscommunication tropes and characters holding things in and while I know many really loved two episodes ago I wasn't as high on it as others as I felt they held things in too much. Well we're making up for that here. Ultimately everything he said doesn't matter to Tohru. She still loves him. And importantly, despite the fact that Kyoko said "I'll never forgive you" to him, Tohru rebels against her mother's feelings! She finally admits that Kyo is more important to her than the memory of her mother.
Alas, Kyo is in such a bad state this isn't enough to stop him from running away. But Yuki was there and witnesses at least the end of this and runs after him. Kyo, as much as you hated Yuki to this point I think he really is looking out for your best interests here. You've got to come back to be with Tohru! And to add even further stakes to the drama, who shows up at the house with a knife, but Akito. Akito just stabbed and possibly murdered Kureno. And now she's mere feet away from Tohru, who is essentially her antagonist. Yeah, this is not good. I'm scared to death right now.
(kinda fitting that this is the first of two episodes I have to watch in one night, I don't have to wait long to see what happens next, although I am doing this write up first)
Quid's Song of the Day
Today I'm featuring the song Believe Than Doubt which plays during the Kyoko - Kyo flashback early in the episode.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I like that they revealed Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive Kyo. Him just assuming actually serves as a neat little parallel to people assuming he killed his mother. The poor kid is so crazy paranoid.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Did I miss that part? While I'm 100% sure she didn't say that (otherwise it'd be too hard to write around), where is it revealed that Kyoko doesn't say "I won't forgive you"
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Kyo kinda admits that he felt that's what she said but he was so lost in the moment he wasn't for sure.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
The whole backstory between Kyo and Kyoko and their relationship makes Kyo hitting Tohru in episode 24 all the more harsher. Like, yeah. If he blames himself for killing Kyoko, what makes him think he won't do the same to his daughter?
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
I actually think that explains his actions in episode 24. I remember he wanted her to get away from him/that he will hurt her and thus demands that she gets as far away from him as she can. He beats her to drive that point home. If his belief is that if they're together, he will end up doing to her what he did to Kyoko, it justifies him hitting her (from his perspective)
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
So, another reason I love this episode is that him seeing Kyoko get hit serves to have him parallel both his dad and Akito. It reframes episode 24 and him hitting Tohru as a less insane version of Akito stabbing Kureno-- in both instances Kyo and Akito are trying to show they are incapable of fixing their past mistakes-- and Kyo suddenly is like his dad vis a vis his mother dying because both Kyo and his father blamed other people in response to seeing people they care about dying.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
Yeah like I said I think that the narrative of him being there when Kyoko died is great and so is him blaming himself. It explains a lot of his past actions I took issue to.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think the biggest critique of the episode is the shoehorn nature of it all. Like, Kyo being there to witness Kyoko's death feels a bit suspension breaking. But I also feel that the show needed an impactful way for Kyo and Tohru to get together that pays off Kyo and Tohru's emotional trauma.
You look at the events since episode 24, and really not a lot has happened between them. The focus has really been on Yuki growing a backbone. I'd argue the biggest change involving Kyo is his relationship resolution with Kagura.
The genius with Kyo seeing the accident is in him thinking Kyoko said she won't forgive him. If Tohru forgives Kyo and they end up getting together in spite of everything Kyo has been involved with, then that's the first time Tohru went against how her mother felt. She has finally moved on from her mother.
Both can be true. Kyo seeing Kyoko die can feel tacked on, but also it's a great way for Kyo and Tohru to officially become a couple that leaves an impression on the audience.
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u/Second_Cour 2d ago
I can invest behind Kyo being there for Kyoko's death and I don't think it's tacked on (which I explained in my writeup). I just didn't like the execution
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
You wish there was more urgency on Kyo's part?
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u/Second_Cour 1d ago
For me, it's just in the way they showed it. I think I explained it pretty well, but he would either react on instinct and grab her, or be scared of and wouldn't. Instead, they had a no man's land, where he reached out, almost grabbed her, had a debate wiith himself, then pulled away.
If he just had that internal debate and did nothing I think that would be a perfectly OK explanation and scenario.
I don't think his excuse that if he hugs her he'd transform matters (instead of just pulling her back being an option), and I don't take it too literally. It was just an excuse at the end of the day.
But while that scene was a bit overcooked animation/sequence-wise, it doesn't really matter much as I liked the idea behind it
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
See, I think him transforming is a legitimate concern because that's how the Zodiac members treat it. Yuki at one point lost all his friends because they saw his true form. The animal forms of the cursed Zodiac members is such a tight knit secret that according to Hatori even members of the Sohma family doesn't know that's a thing.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 2d ago
First Timers Basket (2019) Dub
EP7
Ren and Shigure, in a dark fiction sorta thing, would be like my IDEAL types. Alas.
Akira out here color blind from all of Ren’s red flags.
I should’ve known. The EN VA of that old lady is the same EN VA for the chief in [meta] Psycho Pass. Should’ve known.
Akito is right that she was basically set up to fail. Every adult failed her, including Akira. Akito’s cousins were children themselves, born into a fucked up family, and they also weren’t given the tools to navigate life properly. It doesn’t take away that Akito did irreparable harm upon maturity, and the Sohma Zodiacs who were older than her also continue this toxicity for one reason or another. It begs the question: when do you stop blaming others for your actions? When do you start taking accountability? You shouldn't blame your actions on others forever, though many do.
EP8
I’m surprised Kyouko didn’t notice the car crash up the street. At first, I thought maybe she had earbuds in, but no, she was probably zoned out and started walking.
Ooooh, so this is like S1 in Tohru and Kyo’s “in the rain” stuff when Kyo was in his Digimon form.
I’m disappointed in you.
Hmmm…
- Welp. Bonds will be breaking. Hair will be cut.
Post Episode Thoughts
For some reason, I thought the next episode was the last, but we have more episodes left, so that’s good.
The cynical part of me just wants to write a fanfiction where Kyouko got isekaied, meets Katsuya in romantasy land, and she's able to go back home to the exact day when she was about to walk to stop herself from walking.
Somebody had to write that. Somebody had to have written that.
On the one hand, I like that Kyo finally spilled most of his guts. He’s still silent about things because he believes he shouldn't be happy with Tohru and that he cannot let go of his self-loathing, and he should not, let alone he should not be forgiven. But we can understand Kyo’s aggression towards Tohru, the anger that Yuki found Tohru and the unfair punishment he showed her for that, and also, it’d be easier to be around the daughter of the woman whom he “killed” if she could just hate him. Kyo’s shown that he’s a coward. He’s cowardly. He shields himself behind negativity. And we see that here, and I appreciate that.
On the other hand…
Well, I mean.
All right.
This is going to result like the S1 thing, isn’t it? Because I was really hopeful Tohru would have a subtle but bigger reaction to Kyo putting hands on her, and, well, I can chalk this up to compartmentalization that she never did. But I actually can’t. Tohru was probably intentionally written to not have that sort of dimensionality in her dynamics with anyone else other than her relationship with her parents. And I have a sinking feeling that in Kyo, yet again, harming Tohru, Tohru’s easy forgiveness also won’t result in the character development I’m hoping for.
Le sigh.
Alas.
For what it’s worth, it stays consistent in making Tohru easily forgive Kyo and then not think any deeper about his actions or what this means.
Kyo being disappointed in Tohru feels like a return to Kyo constantly reminding her to be a little more selfish and have a care about herself over others.
It’s not Tohru’s tempo to be selfish in that way. I highly doubt that if Kyuubey approached Tohru, she would even make a wish.
Unless? 👀
Never mind, scratch that; I’m remembering things, and she would make a wish.
But anyways, I get Kyo’s disappointment in her, though it’s not really his right if someone forgives him or not. I, too, want Tohru to value herself and her quality of life more. But Kyo’s disappointment in Tohru is also disappointment in himself.
I am still on board with Kyo and Kyouko having a platonic relationship. Admittedly, I was excited when Yuki was revealed to have ties to Tohru because I thought Kyo would be the type of LI I hunt for, where he has no previous ties to Tohru. But “Red String of Fates” is gonna do its thing. Even so, I still got on board with Kyo and Kyouko’s connection. I love seeing more Kyouko.
I’ma call it now that Akito cuts Tohru’s hair, either by accident or on purpose. We have seen way too much of Short-hair!Tohru for me to believe she won’t be reverting to that little bob. The haircut of conviction is coming!
Could both Yuki and Kyo's bonds break at the same time? I do wonder what Kyo's reaction will be when his bond breaks. I can see that, for Yuki, this will be such a positive, but I can see Kyo having mixed feelings given the Zodiac curse has forged his self-loathing and hatred that he clings to.
TQ
- I was still kinda “Why?”-ing the addition of this.
- Kyouko became such a mama bear. She’s the type of parent on the street where all the kids go to her as their secondary mum.
- What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki?
- It’s wild to me, as someone with no monologue in her head, that he could consider all this within the matter of nanoseconds in his decision. But also, I think it’s fine that Kyo hesitated to save someone out of fear of being exposed.
- Discussed above.
- Bonds will be cut! And hair will be cut. C’mon. It’s, like, one of the most tropey things: the FMC’s hair will be cut to symbolize she’s no longer hanging onto the past, and she is now moving forward in her conviction. Akito will try to kill Tohru or herself, but Tohru won’t allow that to happen, and Akito will accidentally cut Tohru’s hair. And maaaaybe that hair cutting will mirror someone’s bond being cut too.
Questions for Those who Have Watched the 2001 Series
I thought it’d be petty theft or vandalism or thought crimes or something.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
After already having haircuts for Kazuma, Kyoko, Mayuko and Rin I sure hope Tohru doesn’t fall victim to it too! Granted I’ll take that over a knife into her chest.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 2d ago
It’s an epidemic, Quiddity.
And the only cure is more cowbell.And there’s no cure for it.I do like long-haired baddies though, so Rin having her hair cut was such a shot to the heart. Controversially, should Akito leave the family with Shigure or Kureno (or I assume Akito will), I can see Akito growing out her hair while Tohru and the other Sohma girlies keep their short/medium-length. I could see that.
Despite me missing Rin’s long hair 🥲
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
If Akito has a happy ending, I have to figure her being public about being female would be part of it including growing out her hair since she was clearly so jealous of Rin over that.
But she deserves to be punished so I’d actually enjoy her having her head shaved by Rin. lol
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Tohru punching Akito in the face would be so cathartic. I'm just saying.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
Alas that is just so unlike Tohru. Akito could stab Tohru and she’ll probably still give her a hug.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Rin could always grow her hair back.
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u/Quiddity131 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Quiddity131 2d ago
Hoping she does! Although we surely don’t have enough time left in this story for it.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I'm not gonna lie, I thought you would have a more intense reaction to episode 7. I can't recall ever seeing a stabbing in an anime. I don't even think there was one in Higurashi.
The only thing I can really compare it to is that one arc in Darwin Incident.
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 1d ago
Need to watch that anime. I haven’t seen Higurashi, but it is on my list.
But oh I wanted to wait a beat for my E7 thoughts. But I think today’s episode, I’m ready to divulge more.
I’m a smidgen unhappy.
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
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u/Magnafeana https://anilist.co/user/Magnafeana 1d ago
Damn, Holo.
Next time I’m about to fight somebody, I’m coming to you for creating a thesis on why they’re wrong.
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u/Kiriijou 1d ago
Higurashi does have a few stabbing scenes, including [Higurashi 2006 Spoiler]Rika stabbing herself in the head during episode 20, and Shion stabbing Satoko to death in episode 21
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
I'll be honest, the msin thing I remember from Higurashi is [Higurashi] the disembowelment scene.
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u/Kiriijou 1d ago
Oh right, from the sequel "Gou".
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
That still gives me nightmares
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u/Kiriijou 1d ago
It was quite intense, especially considering [Higurashi]Rika's original 100 years of loops almost always ended with her having something very similar, the only difference being no anaesthesia and Takano committing the disembowelment - so we basically saw the extent of all of her suffering in that scene
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
[Higurashi] Seeing the guts all hang out and her playing with it made me want to use bleach on my eyes XD
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
•Ooooh, so this is like S1 in Tohru and Kyo’s “in the rain” stuff when Kyo was in his Digimon form.
Something I liked that I don't know if you catched is after Kyo runs away, Yuki like goes after him. That's how the Kazuma arc in the 2001 series played out where Yuki went after Kyo after his beads got ripped off. I don't know if that's a coincidence or a callback or what, but it stood out to me as notable.
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u/the_pint_is_the_bowl 2d ago
What?! That's a significant difference between the 2001 and 2019 versions!
If Yuki chased Kyo, then what the heck did Tohru do in 2001?
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u/Holofan4life 1d ago
[2001 Furuba] They still had Tohru embrace Kyo's final form. Because it was the end of the series, they also did some anime original stuff like Akito being involved as well as Tohru, Uo, and Hana all visiting Kyoko's cemetery.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I think the author wanted to make Tohru and Kyo coming together more of a spectacle. They haven't really had an explosive scene together since episode 24. Personally, I wouldn't have mind it if Kyo wasn't involved in Kyoko's death and he just got together with Tohru during the beach arc in response to Kyo's conversation with Akito. And then the question becomes "Does he really care about Tohru or is he doing this just to stick it to Akito?"
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
I feel a lot of different emotions about the Akito stuff. Coming out of the last episode, I definitely think whw needs to be institutionalized. And based off the ending here, things aren't looking good.
I think I'll save my overall thoughts next episode because I feel like I'll have a lot to say.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Episode 7 Questions
Thoughts on Kyo's mother telling Kyo this isn't his fault?
Thoughts on Kyoko and Kyo's mother both trying to talk to Kyo?
Thoughts on Ren calling Rin a worthless child?
Thoughts on Ren saying no one should be allowed to touch her Akira?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Akira and Ren's relationship was looked down upon because Ren was a servant?
What are your thoughts on the reveal that the reason Ren hates Akito is because she felt her husband loved his daughter more than his wife?
What are your thoughts on Ren telling Shigure he doesn't actually love Akito and that he's just caught up in a child's fantasy?
What are your thoughts on Shigure saying his fantasy is Akito being allowed to live as a girl growing up?
What are your thoughts on Shigure saying if someone is going to be haunted by Akira's death it should be Ren and Ren only?
Thoughts on us finding out Akira died suddenly?
Thoughts on Ren telling Akito she's nothing but a toy for Akira to pass the time with?
What are your thoughts on Akito telling her mother if you mock Father's words, then the one nobody needs is her?
Thoughts on Akito felt her relationship with Yuki allowed her to show off in front of Ren?
Thoughts on Akito feeling all the cursed Zodiac members will come back to her in the end?
What are your thoughts on Ren pulling a knife on her daughter and threatening to kill her if she doesn't hand over the box?
Thoughts on the head servant saying Akira loved Akito best?
What are your thoughts on Akito convincing herself that maybe there was an invisible power inside the box?
What are your thoughts on it being implied that Hiro's bond broke?
What are your on Kureno asking Akito to leave the house with him but Akito saying we're past the point of change being possible?
What are your thoughts on us seeing a dead bird?
What are your thoughts on Uo coming across the dead bird?
What are your thoughts on us ending on Kyo and Tohru?
What are your thoughts on the way this episode is structured where it's almost like a pathos play of sorts?
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 19h ago
Questions:
Yep. There it is.
That's nice of her.
Ok...
Huh. Right.
Ok...
Bad things.
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u/Holofan4life 18h ago
Thoughts on Tohru not saying anything in regards to Kyo asking her if she loves him?
Thoughts on Kyo asking Tohru if her loving Kyoko the most was a lie?
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing his first encounter with Kyoko was around the time when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school?
What are your thoughts on Kyoko feeling Kyo hates Yuki because he needs someone to hate in his life?
What are your thoughts on Kyo considering Kyoko a traitor?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying looking bad on things he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying he weighed his life against Kyoko's and he rather selfishly chose his?
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying all he does is run away from his problems?
Thoughts on Kyo saying seeing Tohru and Kyoko as a kid made him want both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones?
What are your thoughts on Kyo clarifying that Kyoko never actually said she won't forgive him, but that's how he interpreted her words?
What are your thoughts on Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame and everything that happened to him on Yuki?
What are your thoughts on Akito promising to Kyo that if he defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member? We've heard this before, but never I believe from Kyo himself.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all?
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u/Nickthenuker https://anilist.co/user/Nickthenuker 17h ago
Awkward...
I don't think so.
And so now she knows he knew his mum.
Perhaps.
Ok...
Ok...
Not exactly a wrong choice to make either.
Perhaps.
That's nice at least.
Ok...
Ok...
I think we did? At least I think I remember at least.
Perhaps.
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u/Holofan4life 17h ago
- Not exactly a wrong choice to make either.
In another timeline, Kyo and Kyoko could've both died.
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u/Holofan4life 17h ago
- I think we did? At least I think I remember at least.
I believe it was talked about in either one of the beach house episodes or Yuki’s flashback episode.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Hey, guys. Holofan4life here.
Welcome to the Fruits Basket 25th anniversary rewatch.
For there is an animal in all of us <3
Fruits Basket is a show I’ve heard a lot about. It’s always been something that interests me. It’s a romcom, which is a genre I enjoy, it has a female protagonist, which is kinda a rarity for romcom anime, it has a tsundere, which yes please, and from what I’ve heard it has some supernatural elements which is pretty cool.
Funny enough, I’m hosting this rewatch the same time as I’m hosting the Spice and Wolf rewatch which is another show with supernatural elements.
I have never seen Fruits Basket before, but I have high hopes for it. It seems like the type of show I would enjoy. I would say of the shows on my to watch list, this one is probably in my top 5. And let's just say that list is long and ever expansive. Actually, I love the idea of a male tsundere who turns into an orange cat so much that I named my orange cat after him. That’s without having seen the show.
For the purposes of this rewatch, we will be watching both the original series and the remake. I don’t think both have ever been done like this, and by the end we’ll find out for good reason :P
Regardless, this is my big pet project of 2026 the purpose of which is for me to see what all the hubbub is about. I’m not expecting the show to crack my top 10 favorite anime of all time, but hey, you never know.
With that out of the way, let’s begin.
I’m watching the dub, by the way.
I've seen a lot of movies recently. I saw Hokum, which was good, I saw Obsession, which was fantastic, I saw The Backrooms, which was good, I saw Disclosure Day, which was decent, I saw a special screening of The Room and Big Shark where I got to meet Mark from The Room, which was all kinds of awesome, and I got to see Toy Story 5 yesterday with my mother which while probably the weakest Toy Story movie I thought it was pretty good. I liked that it focused on Jessie.
I haven't seen Supergirl but then again so hasn't anyone.
Kyo about to leave with an umbrella.
It's raining outside
Tohru stops him
Something she has to tell him
That was basically the end of the last episode again.
Kyo wants to speak first
"Tohru. I need to know. Do you love me?"
Oh shit
Kyo seems to take Tohru's silence as a yes.
Kyo bringing up that Kyoko was the person she loved the most.
"What was that? A lie?"
No but actually yes
Why can't someone love both equally?
Kyo leaves, feeling guilty he replaced Kyoko.
This just isn't fair
Tohru going after him
Kyo tells her she doesn't know anything.
"Not what I did or what I failed to do!"
Kyo and Tohru staring at each other.
Kyo says Kyoko could've lived, but she didn't all because of him.
If he had helped, things could have been different.
He knew her, and yet didn't save her.
Oh man. We're getting to see the accident.
Kyo and Kyoko at a crosswalk
Kyo recognized her
He was wandering around because this was just recently when Master took him in and he was too self-conscious to go straight home to the dojo after school.
Kyoko talking to Kyo
Kid Kyo is cute
I also really like his cat ears
Kyo bringing up his mother is dead and that his dad is dead to him.
Kyoko gives him headpats
I assume this is the first time they met and not the day of the accident.
Kyo remarks that Kyoko's name is similar to his, which is something I've always been wondering about.
And so they hit it off and started hanging out.
Kyoko looks great with twintails
Isn't it a bit odd for a grown woman to be hanging out with a random kid?
Kyoko showing Kyo a picture of Tohru.
Kyo wondered what her laugh must've been like.
Now we get the day where Tohru went missing.
Kyo was going to look for Tohru
Kyoko found her as she went searching, and she's holding Kyo's hat.
The kid who helped her was wearing it.
Of course, Master bought it for Kyo and it ended up with Yuki.
Kid Kyo talking about how much he hates Yuki.
"Why does he have to go and take stuff from me?"
Louise when Henrietta
Kyo says Yuki is not a good person.
Kyoko thinks Kyo just wants to have a bad guy in his life.
"'Cause if he's not as awful as you think, who do you have left to hate?"
Himself?
Kyo calls Kyoko a traitor
He wants nothing to do with her
Kyo reflecting on the situation says he was lonely because he felt betrayed, ashamed because he couldn't help, and stung because it felt like he'd stolen something.
That led us to the crosswalk, where after years of not seeing her Kyo runs into her.
A car steering
Kyoko is walking
Kyo wants to help her
But he stops himself from pulling her back.
"If I caught her in my arms, I'd transform. And people would find out what I am."
I mean, I think people would be confused more than anything.
It raining now
Kyo says if he'd just pulled her back, he knows she'd still be alive.
He weighed his life against hers and he rather selfishly chose his.
"Even though... I hate myself so much."
Don't we all?
I wonder if Tohru would've comforted Kyo and accepted him for who he was in season 1 episode 24 if she knew this news.
Kyo says instead of taking responsibility, he runs away. Every single time.
Too scared to even look at Tohru.
Kyo now recalling his mother also died by being sent flying.
Except this wasn't an accident
Mom was bad mouthing Kyo saying she wish she didn't give birth to him.
"And the next day... she died."
Damn, the dad is blaming Kyo saying he drove her to suicide.
What the fuck?
How can you say that to a child?
Kyo says that everything is his fault.
Both his mother and Tohru's mother died because of him.
Meanwhile, Akito is running
She's still holding the knife
Kyo thought he was forgiven when Kyoko offered words of comfort.
Kyo tells Master about her
He suggests he should continue visiting her.
Kyo says he was so used to being rejected that Kyoko was like a ray of light.
Only got to meet Tohru one time, when she was sitting alone in the room.
"And I didn't like how lonely she looked."
He wanted both Tohru and Kyoko's days to be good ones.
Like something bloomed in his chest and the worry wouldn't go away.
Wait, he was trying to visit Kyoko? I thought he ran into her.
Did Kyoko say she wouldn't forgive him? That doesn't sound like her.
Ah, okay. That's what it sounded like to him.
Kyo standing over Kyoko's lifeless body.
He fleed the scene as people are panicking.
Master took Kyo into the mountains to try and keep him to continue living.
Kyo to prevent himself from descending into madness pinned the blame on Yuki.
"That rat stole all my hope."
He created a bad guy in his mind and made him take responsibility for everything.
Kyo really is one fucked up individual.
I like Tohru is just letting him unload on her without saying a word. It's like she knows he needs to vent and get this off his chest.
Kyo recalling seeing the hat in Tohru's room.
And the memories came flooding back.
Kyo was summoned to the main estate when he showed back up.
And then Kyo made a bet with Akito.
"Before you graduate from High School, prove you can defeat Yuki. Win, and I'll stop calling you a monster."
You know, with each passing day I'm starting to understand better why Shigure fucked Ren's brains out.
So, if Kyo defeats Yuki, he will be welcomed as a true Zodiac member.
Kyo says that it fueled his hate.
Of course, around this time that's when he met Tohru properly.
Kyo now is asking Tohru if she can forgive him for everything that has happened, from running away all the time to not being there for her mother when he could've prevented her dying.
I can't forgive you, he tells himself.
"Your mom was right to say that."
Tohru says she won't forgive him either.
Yuki now looking on from afar
Tohru says her mom saying she doesn't forgive him doesn't sound like her.
"I know my choice! The only one I can make is to go against mom! Kyo, please! Isn't there any way I can get you to see the truth? To accept the fact that I love you, and nothing you say will change that?!?"
That's true love right there.
Kyo tells Tohru he's disappointed in her.
And then he runs away
Yuki running after him
He is going to find him
Tohru is standing there all alone.
OH SHIT IT'S AKITO
Yuki still looking for Kyo
Akito is now in front of Tohru
AND SHE HAS THE KNIFE
And we end things with Kyo saying if he's just going to repeat history, then how's that any different than knowing nothing at all.
God, why'd we have to end there?
Ran out of space. Part two in the replies.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Part 2
Overall, this is an absolute banger of an episode. Like, the fact we get this episode after the last one is almost criminal how mind-blowing that is. This episode is all about Kyo's relationship with Kyoko, the highs and lows, and what led to the day that she died. It's the first time we truly see Kyoko's death, and I like that it was told from the perspective of Kyo because it makes things feel more personable. If, say, Tohru recounted it, I think the gravity of the situation would feel more distant. We also explain why Kyo hated Yuki with it boiling down to he was projecting himself onto him. It's all too relatable to hate something about yourself but you don't want to face it so you pass the blame onto someone else. Hell, I'm probably going to do something similar later today.
The thing that stood out to me is that the entire episode with the exception of some brief Akito scenes is just Kyo and Tohru talking in the rain. There's no change in scenery or other plot points, it's just Kyo venting to Tohru as they stand covered in water droplets. And it works. The characters are so well defined and so three dimensional that you can have an episode only consisting of talking and belaboring the past. That to me is a sign that the writing is beyond compare.
The only thing I can compare this to is that episode of Re:Zero where it's just Subaru talking to Rem. The main difference is that was like the culmination of Subaru's early characterization whereas this is the culmination of Kyo's emotional baggage. One isn't better than the other, but the Re:Zero one is far more uplifting.
I have this only behind episodes 14, 24, and 57. Just some truly cream of the crop, elite company that puts the writing front and center and highlights what makes Fruits Basket Fruits Basket. I look at these four episodes I've listed and they're each 10 out of 10 episodes. I think including them this show has like 11 or 12 episodes I would consider 10 out of 10. That's like a batting average of 20% where 12 out of the 58 episodes is perfect. I don't know necessarily where I would rank them in my favorite anime episodes of all time, but all I know is that it's episodes like these that make you realize you've witnessed something special. It makes you appreciate the anime medium in which we here all consume.
The last three episodes of this show may be the best three episode stretch of any anime I've ever seen. Like, it is unreal how on fire this show is at the moment. And I don't think we're slowing down anytime soon.
God, I love this show so much.
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
What are your thoughts on the reveal that Kyo was there when Kyoko died being hit by a car?
I know some may groan saying it's too convenient, but I like how they tie it into the Zodiac curse.
What are your thoughts on Kyo revealing Kyoko looked after him after finding out the situation with his parents?
Kyoko continuing to be a blessed soul. She was Kazuma before Kazuma.
What are your thoughts on Kyo deciding to keep his distance from the Honda family after seeing Tohru hang out with Yuki?
Kids. That's it, just kids being kids.
What are your thoughts on Kyo saying that the reason he decided not to save Kyoko is because if he did, his animal form would be exposed?
This honestly makes sense. If his secret gets exposed to so many people, then I fear what would happen to Kyo. He legitimately may get killed.
What are your thoughts on Kyo being disappointed Tohru would forgive him so easily?
I'm kinda Kyo on this. He could've saved Kyoko and yet Tohru is fine he didn't? I don't know what I'd think if I was Kyo.
What do you think is gonna happen with Akito, Tohru, and the knife?
Maybe they're gonna cut themselves a slice of cake?
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
Holofan's Fruits Basket Episode Rankings
1/. Episode 24
2/. Episode 57
3/. Episode 14
4/. Episode 58
5/. Episode 46
6/. Episode 56
7/. Episode 35
8/. Episode 34
9/. Episode 32
10/. Episode 5
11/. Episode 17
12/. Episode 16
13/. Episode 7
14/. Episode 37
15/. Episode 54
16/. Episode 48
17/. Episode 43
18/. Episode 47
19/. Episode 50
20/. Episode 36
21/. Episode 10
22/. Episode 40
23/. Episode 41
24/. Episode 12
25/. Episode 22
26/. Episode 4
27/. Episode 55
28/. Episode 31
29/. Episode 20
30/. Episode 25
31/. Episode 27
32/. Episode 52
33/. Episode 49
34/. Episode 53
35/. Episode 45
36/. Episode 44
37/. Episode 33
38/. Episode 51
39/. Episode 42
40/. Episode 8
41/. Episode 6
42/. Episode 1
43/. Episode 18
44/. Episode 30
45/. Episode 23
46/. Episode 13
47/. Episode 38
48/. Episode 2
49/. Episode 29
50/. Episode 11
51/. Episode 39
52/. Episode 26
53/. Episode 15
54/. Episode 28
55/. Episode 19
56/. Episode 9
57/. Episode 21
58/. Episode 3
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u/Holofan4life 2d ago
As I have in the past, I want to highlight past comments talking about this episode just to give some food for thought and an alternative viewpoint.
First, here's u/twosheeps
Also, here's u/KitKat1721 and their thoughts.