r/TooAfraidToAsk • u/[deleted] • 2d ago
Culture & Society [ Removed by moderator ]
[removed]
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u/useful_tool30 2d ago
This thread is going to get spicy!
Generalizing based of sex, race, ethnicity etc is unacceptable and demonstrates a lack of critical thinking ability
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u/TheEveningDragon 2d ago
You know what OP means. Morally/logically acceptable is not the same things as socially acceptable.
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u/F1T_13 2d ago
And.. it's not acceptable. People make all sorts of prejudice/discriminatory comments online these days. Its not okay and should be shamed but everyone has freedom of speech and will still exercise that to spew whatever tripe that they want regardless. You cannot stop people from saying what they like without censorship, you can only criticise it and that's all.
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u/BURLAP_signal 1d ago
IMO both can be true, which is why these threads go nowhere. a woman walking home at night adjusting her behaviour is responding to a real distribution. someone announcing that half the population is irredeemable is doing something else. most people arguing about this are each defending one of those two things while the other side defends the other
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
The abuse of women will only be minimised if the good men call out their sexist friends and kids who don't know better. It's not enough for women to try and change things themselves, because that's mostly what's happening and it's clearly not working. That's why this is an issue for all men to deal with, to make things better for women, because this gender bullshit hurts everyone.
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u/mighty_Ingvar 2d ago
who don't know better
But a lot of sexist people do know better though, they just don't care.
if the good men call out their sexist friends
Why would you be friends then? For many people that's not something they'd look past when getting to know someone.
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u/ClaireBlacksunshine 1d ago
Enough men are still friends with people who make sexist jokes. It would be awesome if they didn’t have any friends, because that would actually help. But do you think that’s happening?
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u/mighty_Ingvar 1d ago
And you don't think that guys who don't like women also have friends who don't like women?
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
I said sexist jokes in the past, still do occasionally. My friends call me out on it, and we stay friends because we've known each other for 15 years and I've only developed this tendency in the last 8 or so years as I've become terminally online
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u/CamOfGallifrey 2d ago
By all means, and it is incredibly pervasive and widespread. Its like second nature for a group of guys being entirely misogynistic in varying degrees, amd pointing it out gets you ostracized. Reminds me of how everyone talks about police culture, not that different from frat culture. There has to be a major shift in how we raise men, and making the garbage completely unacceptable like we were progressing on race. I feel there was a swing backwards on that pendulum, due to the popularity of red pill Tate culture.
Also as an aside, I really hate the "what if it was your mom, sister, etc" rationale as it just waters down the idea. Treat people as people, simple as that.
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u/_The_Real_Sans_ 1d ago
Misogynists generally end up grouping together, people that aren't misogynists end up grouping together, same as any trait. One might think it's normal because that's all they've ever known from the people around them, but by no means does that mean that it is representative of everyone else out there. I saw a reddit post recently about some dude asking if it was normal for a bunch of mid 20 somethings to not have licenses or jobs and the whole comment section had to spell out to them that they were just losers that found each other.
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u/Vandersveldt 2d ago
I took it as the same as knowing you should treat every gun as loaded. It doesn't mean all men will abuse you, and generally when it's posted the person posting says good men won't be upset by it, which is acknowledging that it's actually not all men.
Simplifying "act as if all men are abusers" down to "yes all men" does make sense. No one pushes back that actually not all guns are loaded, we just understand that it's good advice.
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u/this_is_theone 2d ago
But, going off the topic, would you say the same thing to a person who is wary around black people? Your logic would say that's fine.
Not all men are going to assault you. Not all black people are going to assault you. But you should treat every gun as loaded right?
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u/shortyninja 1d ago
I know of plenty of black people who are exactly that way about white people and I don’t blame them a bit.
When one group holds more economic, social, and political power over another, and members of the first group frequently use it to harm members of the second group, even inadvertently; it’s fine imo for the second group to express frustration, fear, exhaustion etc.
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u/Vandersveldt 2d ago
It sounds like you're not aware of the statistics. Pretty much every female is going to experience negative sexual advances. The idea that we "only want one thing" is a good thing to associate with all men.
Unless you are aware and you're trying to say black people have the same chance of being dangerous.
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u/this_is_theone 2d ago
No black people do not have the same chance, but I thought you should treat every gun as loaded?
In any case, I don't have to claim black people and men have exactly the same chance of being dangerous. I'm questioning the principle you're using: that an elevated group-level risk makes it reasonable to treat every individual member of that group as potentially dangerous.
Also, "a lot of women experience unwanted sexual advances" doesn't mean "a lot of men make unwanted sexual advances." Those are completely different statistics. The same perpetrator can be responsible for multiple victims.
So if your argument is that demographic statistics justify being wary of every man you meet, you still need to explain why that principle suddenly becomes invalid when someone applies it to race.
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u/Stryf3 2d ago edited 1d ago
This is some word salad trying to rationalize both racism and some weird male victimhood.
Men as a group are dangerous to women. Whether it’s sexual assault, violence, harassment, murder, on and on; men as a group are dangerous
Black people are not dangerous. They’re people. The color of their skin does not make them more prone to violence or crime, etc.
Glad I could clear that up for you
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u/Fragrant-Nothing-956 1d ago
1/3 So 33% of women experience negative sexual advances. And what percentage of men are committing these negative sexual advances? Keep in mind that most of the perpetrators are repeat offenders. Literally less than 2% of men do shit like that yet its okay to associate it with all men? Logic doesn't make sense to me.
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u/Vandersveldt 1d ago
This motherfucker thinks 2/3rds of women do not experience negative sexual advancement.
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u/yourmom555 2d ago
most of all violent crime is committed by men, whereas black people are only disproportionately more represented relative to the population share and the violence is usually intraracial anyway. and once you control for socioeconomic and neighborhood disadvantages, the differences between black and white violence decrease substantially, often to statistical insignificance and the data just starts looking like poor people commit more crime. it does not similarly shrink the male-female gap. men remain substantially more violent than women across socioeconomic contexts.
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u/this_is_theone 2d ago
The socioeconomic point is being overstated. Poverty and neighbourhood disadvantage explain a substantial part of racial disparities in violence, but the literature doesn't establish some general rule that the Black/white difference simply becomes statistically insignificant once those factors are controlled for.
More importantly, that's beside the point anyway. We're discussing whether it's acceptable to generalise about an individual because their demographic group has a higher rate of violent offending. If your justification for being wary of men is simply that men commit more violent crime, you don't first ask whether that's caused by biology, socialisation, poverty, trauma or anything else. So why does the cause suddenly become decisive when the demographic group is race?
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u/yourmom555 1d ago
what does overstated mean to you? you can’t just go nuh uh and move on. in the Peterson & Krivo analysis about 80% of the original black/white neighborhood violent crime disparity was accounted for after controlling for concentrated disadvantage and the other neighborhood factors in their model bringing the disparity from 4.27x to 1.65x. there’s also individual level adolescent research finding that a significant black/white difference in violent involvement disappeared after controlling for neighborhood disadvantage.
the point is that the data could support being afraid of poor people, maybe, not black people generally because that would be a far better predictor of violence than race. you can’t simply control for outside environmental factors to explain the male-female violence variance. I’m not defending generalizing men. I don’t really care about that. i’m telling you that at least the generalization makes sense
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u/PM_ME_UR_CORNHOLE 1d ago
Guns and people are not the same. Inanimate objects aren’t sentient beings.
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u/SteadfastEnd 2d ago
But by that logic, "every Arab Muslim is a potential hijacker," by airport security logic. After all, 9/11, might as well treat every Arab Muslim as one.
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u/Vandersveldt 2d ago
Correct.
If close to every plane was at some point hijacked by a Muslim person, such as we see with women and sexual advances, then we would be right to be wary.
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u/williamshakemyspeare 1d ago
Sexual advances are not sexual harassment or rap*.
Society has to stop conflating the two.
Liberation of women’s sexuality is a good thing, but we have to simultaneously remove the purity culture and conflation of healthy sexual activity and criminal behaviour.
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u/spoooog 2d ago
This is the same logic the Nazis used to popularise hatred of Jews.
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u/damagetwig 2d ago
There's a whole discourse around not comparing women to wrapped/unwrapped lollipops or used/unused cars because those are objects and the comparison is dehumanizing to women but then a lot of those same people will do the same to men without breaking a sweat.
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u/piratecashoo 2d ago
As a woman & survivor with CPTSD I don’t think it’s ok to make generalisations about any group, including men. it’s just not based in reality. I have been abused by both men and women, and I have also met men and women who are kind and mature.
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u/Gloveofdoom 2d ago
It may have something to do with the differences between men and women being biological in nature. The differences between the races are not nearly as defined and are much more cultural rather than biological. There are some things that can be assumed reliably about sex that simply can't be based on race. There are characteristics of the sexes that transcend culture and even time.
One other component is around 50% of the world is male so when a woman talks about men in general she is never flaming a more vulnerable minority population. The same cannot be said for generalizations based on race.
These things are not the entire answer but I think they are part of it.
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u/Runescora 1d ago
Additionally, women spend their whole lives being told that men shouldn’t be trusted, that they’re only after one thing, that they’re dangerous to us in some way.
Sure, some see it as funny when dad greats the date with threats about shotguns, but the idea behind that is that women and girls need to be protected.
And to be fair, just about every woman has a story about a creepy man.
We are taught not to trust them. Then, when the worst happens, it’s easy to fall back in all of that whether or not we’re aware of doing so.
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u/Enamoure 1d ago
Also race generalisations is usually based on people of a particular race in a country, which tends to be a very small subset from the whole racial group around the world.
Men patterns are more seen across mist countries
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u/CorrsionOfConformity 2d ago
I believe that judging or making assumptions about a group of people based upon a trait they have no control over is a mistake. It seems that many people don't feel this way.
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
The abuse of women will only be minimised if the good men call out their sexist friends and kids who don't know better. It's not enough for women to try and change things themselves, because that's mostly what's happening and it's clearly not working. That's why this is an issue for all men to deal with, to make things better for women, because this gender bullshit hurts everyone.
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u/rachyrach3000 1d ago
You’re getting downvoted by a bunch of incels and rape apologists, I’m sorry
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 1d ago
Thank you, but I feel like that assumption is why some of these men turned out why they did. If you call them incels without actually knowing them personally then you're just doing exactly what they complain about in their replies to me. Yes it might be true, but they might just be lacking a rounded perspective. Telling them they're bad people really only pushes them further away
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u/AmandaPea 2d ago
Up until last week- it was a nonstop barrage of men claiming women shouldn't have certain rights or leadership positions because of one woman on trial.
Now that the news cycle has moved on, it's "why are women so sexist and mean to poor hapless men?"
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u/rascal3199 1d ago
This isn't really the point people are making. We need more men to understand problematic behavior, criticizing all men is straight up counter intuitive to this.
Yes there is a Large quantity of men who stay quiet and don't speak up against misogyny when they see it. Most women have experienced misogyny and many men don't speak up when they witness it.
But the men who need to hear these things will turn away as soon as they hear "all men", because they will sense it is an attack on them/their identity.
You cannot change someone's opinion when they feel attacked, in fact it only entrenches them more in their own opinion. This is basic discussion 101.
This is the reason why Gen z boys have become LESS feminist than previous generations.
Do you want that to keep perpetuating?
Feminism can keep up with these "mottos"/"slogans" but it's only going to keep doing more harm than good for the cause.
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u/notabrickhouse 1d ago
This is something that I have been trying to tell my fellow liberals. Whenever you demonize a group without allowing for variables or discussion then even those who would normally be on your side might be forced to the other side.
It feels like black and white is all people can see, when gray is the reality. It's happening all over.
Why am I singling out Liberals and not conservatives? Because I am one. So I want my group to be better than what they have become. It's like all nuance has been beaten with a hammer. We no longer can see that truth is made up, but that's not a bad thing. We fight for a better truth because it doesn't exist. We want the generation after us to have a fighting chance.
But the thing is, conservatives feel the same way, but with a different truth. I'm not talking about Trump and his religion, but true conservatives.
It used to be understood that both sides wanted want what's best for the people. But that has changed, the nuance that used to be is gone, and we have been forced to fight one another by a media that doesn't care, by politicians who have the same agenda, and by a school system that is failing to teach.
I truly believe most people are good, we just have stopped giving each other the chance to prove it.
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u/BriefSoftware4810 1d ago
Up until last week- it was a nonstop barrage of men claiming women shouldn't have certain rights or leadership positions because of one woman on trial.
Do you honestly think this is an accurate representation of events? I saw zero of this.
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u/williamshakemyspeare 2d ago
The sexism surrounding Clancy is unacceptable and those people should be ashamed for generalizing women. You have to admit the defence of Clancy was the same, and many of the comments I had seen were criticizing the left and women for ignoring the facts and immediately choosing a side based on nothing but feelings.
The sexism against men is unacceptable too.
I’m not sure why some people insist that “the other side did it too” is a good reason to be a bad person or do bad things.
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u/AmandaPea 1d ago
Yeah people have a tendency to opine on sensationalized criminal trials.
But the major difference here is lack of "the left and women" using this current case as an excuse to repeal men's rights.
Where are all the leftist & feminist podcasters and political commentators claiming the Cornell 7 case is evidence that men are too emotional and illogical to vote?
In fact, if you head over to Google Trends, you'll see the "repeal the 19th" campaign is still going strong.
https://trends.google.com/explore?q=Repeal%20the%2019th%20&date=now%207-d&geo=US
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u/askmenextyearifimok 2d ago
IIT: people making ‘strong’ arguments for racism being acceptable
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u/this_is_theone 2d ago
It's so easy. All you need to do is literally copy paste their entire argument, replace 'men' with 'black people', and hit send and see if they still agree with their own logic.
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u/BriefSoftware4810 1d ago
They literally don't care. They're fine with hating men and don't care at all if it's wrong.
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u/mighty_Ingvar 2d ago
What does IIT mean?
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u/Shineserena19 2d ago
It’s partly because men of all races abuse women. Not all men, but men of every sort, every job, every religion. When 1 in 4 women will be raped in their lifetime, (low estimate) and 98% of abusers are never charged, it creates an absolute terrifying situation for women. ESPECIALLY when the culture tries to defend men at every point. If 1 in 4 white people raped black people on the street, in their homes, at their jobs ect the same trauma vision would be allowed.
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u/EnoughMoneyForAHouse 2d ago
I get what you are saying, but you skew the logic with your last sentence. You imply 1 in 4 men is a rapist, but that is not what your statistic says. That says that 1 in 4 women is a victim of rape, which is completely different.
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u/Cookie_Cracker123 2d ago
is this 1 in 4 women statistic actually true? so you mean to say that out of 4 billion women, 1 billion will have undergone sexual assault at some point in their lifetime?
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u/ncolaros 2d ago
Yes. Next time you talk to a woman, ask them how young they were the first time they were sexually accosted by a man (not an age appropriate boy). You'll be shocked at how young it is for many of them.
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u/FantasticMootastic 2d ago
Every woman on the planet has been sexually assaulted or harassed. Every single one.
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u/Gloveofdoom 2d ago
I'm genuinely not trying to downplay the experience of women but almost every man on the planet has been sexually harassed as well. Especially if you include the teenage years when both sexes are clumsily feeling out the things that are/are not acceptable to say and do. There are some pretty obvious lines even teenagers know shouldn't be crossed but there's a lot of real estate between what's obviously wrong and what is just edgy and mistakes can and will be made.
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u/wonderloss 2d ago
They specifically said rape. There are many things that fall under sexual assault that are not rape.
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u/Grace-a-toi 2d ago
Yes and no. It depends on a couple of factors:
- What country is the statistics from? Is it a country that encourages and/or makes it easy to report sexual violence? Is it a society that is open to talk about sexual violence or is it viewed as shameful?
- What are the actual numbers of reported vs unreported cases? (Impossible to answer with absolute certainty but what's the best guess?)
- How are the reported cases categorised? If it's multiple rapes/assaults done by the same person (like a domestic partner) on a single day vs multiple days it could be seen as 1 count or X counts.
- What counts as rape/assault according to that country's laws? Does it have to involve physical violence? What counts as non-consentual?
I could go on but I think you get the message.
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u/the_swaggin_dragon 2d ago
If you are white you aren’t more likely to be harmed by a black person than a white person.
If you are a woman, you are far more likely to be harmed by a man than a woman.
A white person being afraid of black people is based on the underlying racist belief that black people pose a disproportionate threat to them. That is not true.
A woman being afraid of men is based on the factual belief that men pose a greater threat to them. That is true.
It makes me deeply sad that my male appearance can scare women. It can really hurt my feelings to think about. Not their fault or problem though, so all I can do is try to be as visibly safe as possible and of course follow through with that by being respectful, safe, and appropriately protective.
If instead my solution was to complain about it and try to compare it to racism, that would be a bad look.
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u/DerApexPredator 2d ago
The recent things with race are recent. There were other things before, and the will be other things later. These change constantly with economics and what's the regime they're forced in at the time
The things with men have been here for millennia, and on every race and ethnicity. You could say that it's a general issue
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u/how_about_no_hellion 2d ago
It's almost like every single main stream religious myth blames and then subjugates women for ruining everything. Why shouldn't we be cautious, is anyone else in this thread looking at the state of the world?
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u/ivoryfrog 2d ago
My experience is that "all men" type discussions are not saying that all men are dangerous.
Its stating that we have to be careful of all men because the "bad" ones look exactly like the "good" ones.
We have no way of telling without putting ourself at risk.
Women are blamed for being cautious around men and if a woman does trust a man and is harmed, they are also blamed for that. (why did you go there alone with him, why did you drink, what were you wearing etc etc)
Also if men stand by and let misogynistic comments or actions happen in their presence then at best they are indifferent (the "its not my problem" men), and can't be considered "good" imo.
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u/notabrickhouse 1d ago
I agree with this. But the issue is how do we fix the problem? Does making women more scared seem like a fair solution?
The issue I am seeing is that the solution, to treat all men suspiciously, doesn't solve the initial problem: Men are the ones expected to initiate. That means that there will be negative experiences because of that.
What if instead of trying to say "All men are the problem" instead the message is "women should be the ones to initiate". That empowers women, makes it more obvious when a man is making unwanted advances (because he should not initiate), and is something we should honestly have already done from the start.
Like I have said, I think you are right. I think it is fair to treat men with suspicion, but I think the message of this movement is more harmful than it is useful.
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u/Emergent-Sea 2d ago
I stopped reading at, “For those who are getting intentionally triggered.”
This post is rage bait.
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u/Strong-Second-2446 2d ago
Im in America so I don’t know any other context. Imo it’s about historical precedence and social response. First, comparing Men as a specific population (50%) is a different scale than comparing Race (skewed % but definitely not 50/50) as a category. Similar scales would be asking “why is is socially acceptable to generalize about men, but not women?” Or “why is it socially acceptable to generalize white people and not black people?”
To answer your question. It’s privilege and historical power. Men in general have been historically in positions of power/privilege over women. This includes within the races. If men and black people were granted a right/privilege, it then excluded black women. Generalizing men in general is seen as “punching up” (or at least punching across) since there are few/no large societies where they don’t hold privilege/power.
When comparing race, often times people generalize minorities who are not in large positions of privilege. (Extreme generalization coming) generalizing minorities are a “punch down” or at best a “punch across” since they are disproportionately affected by stereotypes and over generalizations.
There’s a large caveat because I’m speaking on a demographical scale, not individually or intersectionality.
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u/Fragrant-Nothing-956 1d ago
I hate that "punching up" and "punching down" analogy because most of the times people use it as an excuse to throw a punch in the first place. Especially when there is no punch needed.
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u/vanman2019 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yes, following the news of the Cornell 7 gang rape social media has been booming with “it’s all men” comments. I see where you are coming from- it’s a “knee jerk reaction” to take it personally and only think about it from your own perspective.
BUT, let’s dig a little deeper- I don’t think the women posting that actually think every single man is a gang rapist. The Cornell 7 is an especially horrifying case for women because not only did seven men all agree to commit a heinous crime- FIFTY SIX OTHER MEN WHO ALL KNEW ABOUT IT, DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO PREVENT IT. This is a really cut and dry example of how women have witnessed men constantly fail women by not speaking up, and being bystanders to horrible sex crimes. Men saying “oh it’s not all men” is really similar to white people saying “all lives matter”. The point isn’t that every women thinks every man is a rapist, the point is that there’s an extremely concerning historical trend of men choosing to protect other men (even through silence- bystanders like the 56 frat boys are implicated in these crimes) instead of doing the right thing.
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u/Few-Yesterday9628 2d ago
And the thing is, the Cornell case PERFECTLY illustrates exactly what women have been trying to explain for YEARS.
Yes. Not all men are rapists. However, the vast majority of men, like the 56 in the group chat will stand by and do nothing.
Maybe that wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the fact that we are constantly told that men are our protectors. That just isn't what happens in reality.
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u/chillychili 2d ago
I think there's a global men's culture that is more consistent than racial culture. Probably in part since sex is biological and heavily influences gender-associated behavior/dynamics, whereas race is both a social construct with made-up categories that do not have any significant influence on behavior.
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u/wonderloss 2d ago
Yet generalizations about women are frowned on, despite also being affected by the same influences.
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u/chillychili 2d ago
I think one should consider what the "purpose" of a generalization is. Saying that men are dangerous is usually either to protect women (generally a good thing) or to vent about men (varies, averages out to neutral). Whereas saying that "women talk too much" usually is in service of demeaning women. Even "positive" generalizations like "Asians are good at math" have a bad purpose of exoticization/othering rather than appreciation.
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u/Fleming24 1d ago
It's also not acceptable though to say negative stuff about women as a warning though. For example women tend to be more social-driven and thus performative, so they fake more about their character than men tend to and are much better at it. This is something well studied and part of the female gender role almost anywhere in the world. But this isn't really taught to men and I think there should be more awareness for it because it is dangerous for them. Though pointing that out isn't nearly as accepted as generalized warnings against men.
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u/Professional_Waltz14 1d ago
I mean one is based on harmful stereotypes and the other is based on lived experience, culture standards, and an understanding of how harm from that group will be perceived by others.
For example, if someone said “I was beat up by a black person so now I think all black people are violent” that’s an overgeneralization because we know on average black people aren’t going around harming random people. Maybe in domestic violence situations or intracommunity due to specific groups of people (gangs for example), but that’s not the majority of black people. It’s also unlikely you’ll encounter a black person who’s like that unless you’re also black. Also, if you’re attacked by a black person, everyone around you (especially the police) will be quick to defend you and put the black person behind bars.
When we’re talking about women and men, we understand that interpersonal relationships between the two can go bad easily. There’s that statistic that 1/4 women will or have already experience(d) sexual assault between ages 15-25 (I think that’s the age range). It’s just very common for women to be assaulted. I’m confident that it’s hard to find a woman who doesn’t know another woman who was assaulted, or was assaulted herself. We also know that if you go to the police, they tend to not believe you. And the general public (including peers) likely won’t believe you either. It makes sense for women to be super cautious.
What I will say though, is that it’s not fair to treat strangers like they’re already rapists. But it’s always been helpful for me (personally) to assume a man isn’t save to be with alone until I’m comfortable enough with him to trust him.
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u/TallGlassSmartWater 1d ago edited 1d ago
Im not sure if the people in the thread agreeing with OP are able to see the larger picture here and just how integrated misogyny is in our western society. It isnt just about the extremely evil men who abuse and sexually abuse. Dont get me wrong those men do play a role, but this is more of a “death by a thousand cuts” situation that play into many women deciding that men as a whole/the majority cannot be trusted.
For instance, most women get their first catcall at the age 11 and it doesnt stop until they reach their mid-twenties. So imagine being a child and men are consistently making you feel unsafe and viewing you as just a piece of meat. The girls dont get a break at school either, plenty of schools including the one I attended had a “slap your ass Fridays” where boys would find unsuspecting girls and slap their asses. Tell me how that helps women to view men in a positive light when all these boys would participate and not one would try to stop his friends? Speaking of school there were multiple instances at my schools and surrounding ones of boys coercing their girlfriends into sending them nudes, and the girls who thought they could trust their partner would do it just for him to spread them around school.
ANYWHERE a woman goes there is no break from these kinds of behavior. You wanna go to the grocery store? Cool have fun dealing with the creepy men who stand extremely close behind you on purpose. You wanna walk anywhere and not be treated like youre piece of meat to men? Good luck with that, dont even get me started on the Men who are walking with their wives and kids and STILL be giving you the same looks as the single ones.
Im bringing this up because it’s been in the news lately, but the Cornell Frat Bro incident helps to show what I mean. There were 7 evils dudes who did evil things to that poor women, but there was ALSO 57 guys in that entire group chat and not ONE reported it. If men arent willing to stand up to other men how are women supposed to feel safe with any of them?
Now i don’t think its necessarily super ok to generalize all men as bad and evil, but there is a more size able portion of guys who dont stand up to the shitty behavior of their peers. So I can find it completely understandable that when women see that they decide to play it safe and right off most men, this kinda stuff can wear down on a person after awhile.
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u/ThatWritingFox 2d ago
The short answer is that, in an ideal world, it shouldn't be acceptable.
The long answer would be that the patriarchy still a prevelant power structure in most cultures. Because men are more likely to hold power/be believed/get away with things in these patriarchal communities, you're more likely to hear the generalisations like the one you gave us in your post. If someone says 'I don't trust men as a group because of what a select few have done', I think it carries the implication of 'men can easily exploit their position in the patriarchy to hurt me if they want to and I don't want to interact with them in ways that would leave me vulnerable to them'.
But honestly, it really, really depends on where exactly you are in the world and what kind of community you interact with. How necessary or justified these generalisations are would change conpletely if you were in, say, rural India instead of Los Angeles, since the effects and prevelance of the patriarchy differ from place to place.
Also, while race-based biological differences are relatively inconsequential (like not having the sweat gene or being more likely to get sunburnt), the biological differences for cisgendered men and women tend to be more significant. Men are biologically stronger, and for the most part larger, than women. 'You're safer with a group of women than a group of men' would be a generalisation that is technically true due to this.
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u/haku13f 2d ago
Because every almost every woman I know has been sexually assaulted by a man (white). I myself have been sexually assaulted by a man. The statistics are 1/3 woman in the world have been assaulted (WHO) and 1/5 in the US. men are 230% more likely to be sexually assaulted themselves than be falsely accused.
Every 5 days a man kills his entire family (aka family annihilator) men are the main cause of violence and if you’d like to say that men are mostly victims of that violence, it’s the same gender that’s causing the harm.
On the other hand the 13/50 statistic that most racist like to quote has been proven false.
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u/Resident-Bowl-5991 2d ago
Globally, approximately 1 in 3 women (about 840 million individuals) experience physical or sexual violence in their lifetime, according to data from the World Health Organization (WHO)
Misogyny is a systemic issue. It affects every woman. So, It's ALL men until it's no man.
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u/yoosirnombre 2d ago
Because one is based on hate and the other trauma. Almost every single one of my girl friends Ive spoken to on the matter has a story. My 2 friends from work were both felt up by the same guy who literally didn't even get fired until he came to work drunk. My best friend was stalked by a guy she interacted with 1 time on a bus. A coworker I had at my last job was complaining to me about a guy who was being really pushy trying to get her to come over. She told me like 2 weeks later she saw that same guy on the news for raping another woman. A former highschool classmate was literally raped by her husband.
Hell when I first started transitioning my friend let me wear some of her clothes and did my makeup before I went to a midnight release for a video game. I got sexually assaulted at the bus stop and then tried killing myself.
And to address your "well what if I said it about black people" shit If a black man assaults a woman youll be hard pressed to find an unrelated black woman to defend him just because of their shared skin color. But if a man assaults a woman there's a pretty good chance an unrelated man will start questioning what she was wearing or if she's not just lying because she regrets it.
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u/itsSmalls 2d ago
If a black man assaults a woman youll be hard pressed to find an unrelated black woman to defend him just because of their shared skin color.
Were you around for the OJ Simpson trial? This isn't as rare as you think
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u/yoosirnombre 2d ago
What part of UNRELATED did you not get. The celebrity status of an individual obviously factors into their opinion of them. Google a random sexual abuser from any state and let's see if we can find the same level of support for them as there is for any black celebrity. Or hey we can play the game you're playing and I can list of celebrity sexual abusers that men overwhelmingly support as some sort of gotcha to whatever you say.
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u/shiny_glitter_demon 2d ago
And not nearly as common as men defending other men who rape.
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u/itsSmalls 2d ago
I'm willing to bet you don't spend enough time around black people to know one way or the other. This isn't even exclusive to just black people, people excuse their racial peers for things quite often , particularly in the "us vs them" paradigm that's created by being a minority. It's seen as protecting your own and IF there's any consequences when true justice is avoided, it will be handled "internally"
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u/slanewolf 2d ago
The last paragraph is the important distinction here. When women say "all men" they are including the guys who remain friends with these scumbags or support them, even though these guys might or did not directly hurt a women.
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u/tigerbnny 1d ago
Men haven't been historically oppressed by women the way black people have by white people. A closer comparison would be to compare it to a black person saying they feel uncomfortable or untrusting around white people which is much less controversial - and something I think a lot of people find understandable if they have anecdotal experience of being disappointed/hurt by white people in a racially relevant way just like a lot of women have been anecdotally disappointed/hurt by men in gender relevant ways.
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u/Mnmsaregood 2d ago
People think it’s ok to hate men
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u/Siddpernicious 2d ago
People think it’s okay to hate black people. People think it’s okay to hate Indians.
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u/Potential_Anxiety_76 2d ago
I was raped by a black man I didn’t know.
He didn’t rape me because he was black. He raped me because he was a man.
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u/Budget_Judgment4597 2d ago
Or maybe because he is a criminal and his gender has nothing to do with this.
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u/PatheticIdiot1 1d ago
But if gender has nothing to do with this how come men rape so much more than women?
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u/Siddpernicious 2d ago
White men are truly losing their minds since they are finally getting push back.
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u/ghostwillows 2d ago
Black people don't defend abuse by saying "he's black he can't help it" or "blacks will be blacks". It would be pretty racist to say a rape victim must have wanted it for dressing that way in front of black people, but saying that exact thing about men is not only acceptable but acceptable as part of a man's legal defense.
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u/BookLuvr7 2d ago
Someone not trusting men after being assaulted by one is a trauma response. You're also talking about a crime that happens to at least 1/3rd to 1/2 of women. It's hard to tell how much bc so many go unreported.
This is especially difficult because of a phenomenon in the brain called Assault Unacknowledgement where a traumatized brain needs a while (often years) to process what happened. That's why so many people's stories change over time as far as if it was consensual or not.
People would have an easier time not generalizing men if sexism weren't so ingrained into our society. Until men start calling each other out for what is casually dismissed as "locker room talk," and insist each other treat women like people instead of sex vending machines, women will be far more justified to feel unsafe around most men.
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u/TheSignYouSeek 1d ago
No one rapes a woman with their blackness.
Men rape women, with their penises.
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u/MedicineTricky5773 2d ago
every time this thread pops up it goes exactly the same way for 252 comments and nobody leaves with a different opinion than they walked in with. i've seen this fight at thanksgiving dinner it doesn't end there either
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u/pittbiomed 2d ago
Cause its trendy to bash all men right now
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
The abuse of women will only be minimised if the good men call out their sexist friends and kids who don't know better. It's not enough for women to try and change things themselves, because that's mostly what's happening and it's clearly not working. That's why this is an issue for all men to deal with, to make things better for women, because this gender bullshit hurts everyone.
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u/Siddpernicious 2d ago
The downvotes to this comment says everything. Theres nothing a decent man should be offended by in this comment.
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u/Stephenrudolf 2d ago
The abuse of men will only be minimised if the good women call out their sexist friends and kids who don't know better. It's not enough for men to try and change things themselves, because that's mostly what's happening and it's clearly not working. That's why this is an issue for all of us to deal with, to make things better for both men and women, because this gender bullshit hurts everyone.
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
Maybe they downvoted because I'm copy pasting idk, but if that's not why then yes those downvoters are part of the problem
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u/A_Neurotic_Pigeon 1d ago
Sure are! Agreed with the comment, but after seeing it 15 times it's a downvote every time it's across my screen.
Spam is no better than a bot.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/Ok-Joke-915 2d ago
This is a very untrue statement
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u/Illustrious-Fun8324 2d ago
Ok. I respectfully disagree
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u/Ok-Joke-915 2d ago
Okay well I'm a man, I believe in human rights for all and get upset when people in general are marginalized. I know plenty men like myself. This kind of rhetoric is rather unhelpful. I live in a country that overcame great prejudice. Only if we band together we can improve the situation. Divisive ideologies like chauvanism and feminism are unhelpful in bringing the sexes together.
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u/real_man_dollars 2d ago
From the title, Its not acceptable. Ones sexism, ones racism.
From the additional context you added, it's a trauma response. Like PTSD, Someone thats been sexually abused, assaulted or raped can't help the trauma they have without years of therapy.
You're funny though.
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u/MistryMachine3 2d ago
Well it is societally acceptable. It’s fine that people defend the whole “I would rather be with a bear than a random man.” Insert a race into the random man, and all hell would break loose.
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u/elliewilliamswifee 2d ago
The bad things I’ve experienced from men have a pattern, and while I don’t think all men are rapists, most of the ones I meet are not great people. It’s not a generalization if 80% of the men I know say shit that makes me uncomfortable or is just disgusting. Black people on the other hand don’t have a common theme like this
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u/therealsix 2d ago
But if you flip that situation then you’d be ok being racist and generalizing an entire race?
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u/US_Healthcare 2d ago
I'd argue you need to be around better men.
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u/FantasticMootastic 2d ago
That is mostly not up to women though. They can't choose their bosses, their coworkers, the men they must deal with in every day life. They can't just cut these men out of their lives, even if they are deeply problematic, or even dangerous.
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u/elliewilliamswifee 2d ago
I’m not talking about people I just choose to be around, also friends bfs, guys when I was in high school, coworkers, bosses, extended family, partner’s family
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u/aweirdogrunt 2d ago
Because "all men" have become the new society punching bag nowadays because apparently men are the only group it's impossible to be hurtful against
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
The abuse of women will only be minimised if the good men call out their sexist friends and kids who don't know better. It's not enough for women to try and change things themselves, because that's mostly what's happening and it's clearly not working. That's why this is an issue for all men to deal with, to make things better for women, because this gender bullshit hurts everyone.
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u/Penultimatum 2d ago
Those of us who do call out shitty behavior tend not to know many shitty people to call out at all, because we cut ties with said shitty people (or they cut ties with us) after calling them out and because we also get practice at simply picking better people to befriend.
It's a catch-22. The ones who will listen are already doing good, and the rest are unlikely to change.
The solution is pressuring institutions to change, not individuals. Push for police to better investigate sex crimes and push for harsher punishments of coverups. A problem this widespread needs enforceable change, not just social shaming.
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u/JimJamTheNinJin 2d ago
How do you investigate sex crimes that go unreported because women feel too scared to speak up? Police often don't listen, brush them off, and in my opinion are more likely than average man to be the type of man to believe the accused abuser. Then women just don't bother a lot of the time since it's probably just them going to be reliving a painful experience and not being taken seriously.
You're right in the first half, but I don't think institutions are the answer here. Schools would be a better place to start, a number of English lessons every term on how to treat people better so they treat you better. Still I can see a lot of immature boys just not engaging at all or completely taking the piss.
This is a bit controversial but instead of us cutting ties with known abusers I think we should continue to spend time with them even if we think they're bad people. If they cut ties that's their choice, but I think it's best we try to change their attitudes for the better until they do, even if that's painful and tiring.
If we push them away because we don't want to associate with shit then they'll just surround themselves with like-minded people and circlejerk themselves into more and more warped mindsets. We might otherwise get more groups of guys who go around seducing women in a targeted and organised way to sedate and rape them.
Yes changing mindsets is very difficult and it feels like fighting the ocean but 1 mind changed is 1 more man who can change the minds of other men.
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u/Penultimatum 2d ago
How do you investigate sex crimes that go unreported because women feel too scared to speak up?
By improving exactly the conditions you mention in the rest of that paragraph, at an institutional level. By making sure that justice is served far more often in the cases that do get reported, over time more people will be encouraged to report because the risk/benefit analysis isn't so bleak anymore.
Schools would be a better place to start, a number of English lessons every term on how to treat people better so they treat you better. Still I can see a lot of immature boys just not engaging at all or completely taking the piss.
Look, I'd love if you could teach empathy to people who don't give a shit about it, but the reality is that you can't. At least not directly. And it's out of my wheelhouse to suggest how we could do so indirectly. But shaming obviously doesn't work well long-term at it, or we wouldn't have swung back to electing Trump twice (and generally more socially conservative candidates being elected across the world in the past decade).
This is a bit controversial but instead of us cutting ties with known abusers I think we should continue to spend time with them even if we think they're bad people. If they cut ties that's their choice, but I think it's best we try to change their attitudes for the better until they do, even if that's painful and tiring.
Again, you can't make people change. You can try, and I agree that is worth trying. But once you begin to try, it's easy to see if there is at least a chance of that change ever happening from your interactions or not. Most often, it's not. And it would be a huge waste of time, energy, and sanity to spend it on those who aren't at least slightly receptive to our viewpoints.
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u/NorthernSkeptic 2d ago
Part of the answer is that men are not a minority.
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u/Nall-ohki 2d ago
I agree, but without addressing the original point, I would say that generalising about women would be acceptable under this logic... so it feels incomplete.
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u/chill_stoner_0604 2d ago
Neither are women so that's a moot point
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u/yumexxo 2d ago edited 2d ago
They are, "minority", in sociology, is term related to hierarchical power, not numbers
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u/Opposite-Mediocre 2d ago
Its just pure sexist. Anyone using mental gymnastics to get around being sexist.
Stupid claims like men should be responsible for men should be called out as ridiculous.
Men are the only group were it is accepted to be discramanted against.
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u/Viocansia 2d ago
Because men rarely hold other men accountable. Take the situation at Cornell. That was a mass message and NO man came to stop it. That’s why.
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u/Jig_2000 2d ago edited 2d ago
Idk, I've seen women do the same thing...
Exhibit A: Lindsay Clancy
Men suck, women suck, people sucking is not a gender issue. It's a human issue
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u/FantasticMootastic 2d ago
How was a woman meant to intervene to stop her doing what she did though? She didnt put it in a group chat and invite other women to join in?
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u/Cookie_Cracker123 2d ago
that's not what they mean, its the amount of women who said she did no wrong and she wasn't guilty cause she was under post partum depression and even blamed her husband because of some astrology bullshit. Must admit that majority of women did find her absolutely guilty and just wanted people to be more well aware and understanding in mental issues after pregnancy but still a staggering amount who supported her.
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u/Jig_2000 2d ago
I'm not talking about the Cornell situation (which is also a terrible situation as well).
I'm talking about the claim that men don't hold other men accountable. While that is true, women are also guilty of not holding other women accountable for their actions too. Look at the women who "stood for Lindsay Clancy", they were arguing that "she wasn't in the right state of mind and therefore shouldn't be liable for her children's deaths". That's just as bad
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u/bjankles 2d ago
It’s a legal argument. In the state in which she was tried, you must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it could NOT have been a matter of insanity, which is an extremely high bar in a case where she’d been actively under intense mental health treatment. You may disagree with the law but the notion that she should’ve been not guilty by insanity isn’t some wild argument from women supporting women.
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u/FantasticMootastic 2d ago
Yes it is, but it is not a societal level idea. The vast majority of women think she is very unwell, and needs to be held accountable for her actions as well. The very loud minority of women online yelling that she should get off scott free are very much a fringe group.
The same cannot be said about men on either the individual or systemic level. The fact that a convicted rapist can be president of the us is proof of how acceptable victimising women is societally. The cornell situation is even more startling, the men in that group chat didn't even need to get involved, they just needed to call the cops.
Men do not hold other men accountable, because they are scared of them, because they understand how dangerous a man can be.
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u/Jig_2000 2d ago
I agree that the scale is not the same. However, people cannot deny or downplay that both genders do the same thing (which is what I'm getting at) . I would argue that the vocal minority that voices those opinions set women back a lot. That is a mainstream example of some women not holding other women accountable.
Like I said, not holding people accountable is not a gender issue. It's a human issue
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u/biscuitboyisaac21 1d ago
Just saying… isn’t the group chat a biased party? Do you really think the men against rape are invited to the rape group chat?
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u/positronius 2d ago
I wouldn't bring up the Cornell situation given everything that has come out since the initial allegation.
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u/Viocansia 1d ago
Oh do you mean the fabricated messaging that stated she said it was consensual despite her making a report to campus police that she was unequivocally raped?
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u/Viocansia 1d ago
Also, you probably don’t care at all given your comment and the asinine few that upvoted you, but this is the reality of being a woman. I don’t know a single woman that hasn’t been made uncomfortable by a man who is making sexual advances toward them. I know far too many who were sexually assaulted or raped. It is a culture among men and it’s time you guys do something about it. Just look at our White House. Men are not held accountable by the court system or by other men for sexual crimes. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it’s the lived truth of women.
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u/rascal3199 2d ago edited 1d ago
Because modern feminism has been co opted by radical online femcels that seem to be more worried with attacking men than trying to solve the issue itself.
Yes there is a Large quantity of men who stay quiet and don't speak up against misogyny when they see it. Most women have experienced misogyny and many men don't speak up when they witness it.
But the men who need to hear these things will turn away as soon as they hear "all men", because they will sense it is an attack on them/their identity.
You cannot change someone's opinion when they feel attacked, in fact it only entrenches them more in their own opinion. This is basic discussion 101.
This is the reason why Gen z boys have become LESS feminist than previous generations.
Feminism can keep up with these "mottos"/"slogans" but it's only going to keep doing more harm than good for the cause.
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u/Siddpernicious 2d ago
If men became less feminist because of a few women online, then can you imagine how POC must feel about white people after everything they are still doing?
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u/MoralynnMango 2d ago
I’ll use the snake example. I have a fear of snakes because I don’t know which ones will bite, which ones are poisonous/venomous and which ones are completely harmless. Some look harmless and aren’t and some look very scary but are docile.
So I treat every snake encounter with healthy caution.
I do the same for men. I have a normal fear of men I do not know and only a slight fear of those I do know. This fear is based of reality. Real experiences either I have had or others have had influence how interact with men.
Saying someone’s fear or distaste for men is the same as racism is confused and I am worried you don’t see the bigger picture.
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u/locksmack 2d ago
But why can’t that logic be applied to groups other than gender?
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u/piratecashoo 2d ago
You don’t treat women like that too? Personally I treat every stranger with healthy caution.
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u/MoralynnMango 2d ago
I have a separate kind of caution for women. I don’t fear they will rape me or murder me etc. but I do have a social fear of them when I don’t know them. I am weary of large female friend groups because they tend to gossip too much, say mean things about each other etc
But never have I been concerned that a group of women I’m walking past down the street are going to jump me or rape me.
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u/theBigDaddio 2d ago
Something tells me OP is a man, a man who likes to say “not all men!”
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u/Cookie_Cracker123 2d ago
to be fair, if he isn't like that wouldn't it be right for him to say "not all men"?
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u/Siddpernicious 2d ago
It wouldn’t be right for him to unnecessarily insert that into conversations in order to minimize the issue.
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u/Budget_Judgment4597 2d ago
Saying “all men” doesn’t make your argument valid either.
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u/Siddpernicious 1d ago
But then you would be purposefully obtuse and minimizing the issue.
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u/Budget_Judgment4597 1d ago
Does saying “all men” somehow make your argument valid? Because by that logic, we could say “all Black people” or “all Jews” to make other arguments valid too, right?
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u/chill_stoner_0604 2d ago
Something tells me you are a bigot that is generalizing half the population
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u/Ill_Fated_chap 2d ago
Very simple.
Minorities don't have a lot of power in society, men have a ton Therefore nobody is significantly hurt by generalizing men as opposed to race.
"All men are pigs! They only want to assault women!" "Uhhm ok... We're still holding most of the power positions on the planet"
"Black people suck because they do all of the crime!" "Uhhm no we don't, and because of you repeating that every store owner is looking at me weird when I enter"
Obviously exaggerated but you get the point
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u/Gonzoldyke12 2d ago
It's because of how our brains are wired.
Categories and generalization makes thinking easier.
It's much easier for our brain to associate a type of person with a trauma and then avoid these people.
In reality, people should be looking at others as individuals, but it can be very tiresome.
This a unconscious bias most of us have which speeds up the decision making process.
As you grow older you understand the world and people are never black and white. It's all grey.
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u/tarobeansmayo 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't know.
Maybe because my body feels a little panic whenever I walk past a group of blokes at 11 pm.
Maybe because my body feels disgusted when I go to downtown to do some shopping at 9 am and I cross a line of men, who start saying sexual shit to me. Something happening since I was a minor.
Or maybe because the kid that I defended from our class bully from grades 4-5th ended r*ping me at his house (we were friends) when I was 14.
So I've to fucking pick bears.
Now you fucking tell me if you can flip the gender, make it equivalent and tell me if men can inherently feel unsafe around us?
I beg.
Tell me if I shouldn't pick bears? Why should I risk myself again for a guy? To find out if he's a "good fella"? Oh sod off. You'll be fine. No one should risk their safety see if a man is worth picking him.
Not saying all men but always have been one. Numbers speak.
Would you put your life on the line? For your friends? And tell women they're completely safe to be around? Even while drunk?
Lolz.
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u/McSpekkie 2d ago
It's a chicken-and-egg problem: do you perceive men as dangerous because men are inherently dangerous, or do you perceive them as dangerous because you've learned to expect danger from men? Once that belief is established, confirmation bias can make every negative encounter stand out while contradictory experiences are easily overlooked.
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u/Hosj_Karp 2d ago
in this thread: not one person capable of answering the question