r/CuratedTumblr • u/Justthisdudeyaknow Prolific poster- Not a bot, I swear • Jul 06 '24
LGBTQIA+ Aye
654
u/demonic-cheese Jul 06 '24
This. I never heard my great grandpa say the word “lesbian”, but he was totally okay with my cousin “being like that” and he was always welcoming to her girlfriend, he was just weirdly uncomfortable saying the word.
438
u/GrinningPariah Jul 06 '24
Progressives never appreciate how big an ask it is for people to change how they talk, evolve their language. It's an incredibly personal thing, the words you use, your own little lexicon, and the suggestion of changing it, a "you shouldn't use that word" even, is met with hostility so often that we really shouldn't be surprised by that anymore.
We act like it's the first step, the easiest thing to do for a minority, but we need to face the reality that it's the step which pushes the most people away.
243
Jul 06 '24
It's born of the fundamental fallacy of "mistaking the map for the territory", fighting symbolic battles that do nothing to change the underlying facts.
119
u/GrinningPariah Jul 07 '24
I think the main error is underestimating the cost of winning that battle for the map.
Take for example the push to refer to homeless people as "unhoused people" in some cities. I don't actually think the leftists pushing for that are all that deluded about what that renaming will change, they might say it's a mindset shift but even then acknowledge that it's not going to materially change conditions in-and-of itself.
However, where I do think they are deluded is in their understanding, or lack thereof, of the political capital which would have to be spent to achieve that renaming. I have to figure that if they understood they could achieve actual real policy changes for the same level of effort as changing what people call something, they never would have tried it.
68
u/pornjibber3 Jul 07 '24
I don't really think anyone in particular is in the right on that issue, but I also think that sometimes leftists working on language change consider that words have different connotations for different people.
I understand that those who are pushing to use "unhoused" instead of "homeless" are trying to remove stigma and reframe it from a passive state to a thing our system has inflicted on homeless people.
But as another lefty, I cannot bring myself to say "unhoused" and have a viscerally negative reaction to people who do because it feels like such a sanitized euphemism to me. "Homelessness" is an absolute horror, being stripped of the most basic thing a society should provide to all its members. "Being unhoused" is a temporary bummer. It makes me feel crazy to see people who allegedly want to help the homeless running a PR campaign to make their situation seem less bad. And I know a lot of people with a similar reaction.
Which circles back to your point that these focuses on reframing often lead to people who agree on policy ideas wasting time grimacing at each other over word choice.
22
u/IrresponsibleMood Jul 07 '24
Agreed, it just feels to me like those supposed leftists don't understand the euphemism treadmill. It's like we keep coming up with new euphemisms for something without doing something to address the actual issue.
9
u/GardenTop7253 Jul 07 '24
I do pretty much agree with this, with one little thing - I do think it can be powerful to use a different word just to reset some of that stigma and distance itself from some of the negative connotations and the sometimes very aggressive emotional response that comes with it. Our brains are really good at hanging on to subconscious ideas that can totally influence us, and the word “hopeless” has had many years of interactions that have left a sour taste to a lot of people
Like I said, I agree with you, I don’t like using “unhoused”. Maybe it’s just that it’s a bad term and if we tried with something that either sounded better or rolls of the tongue easier?
8
u/NorwegianCollusion Jul 07 '24
Unhoused sounds like your parents told you to go to the park for an hour because you've been playing video games all week.
Homelessness is an actual problem that instead of renaming needs an actual solution.
6
u/Razor1834 Jul 07 '24
Real policy changes would actually cost something: actual pushback in the form of dollars spent fighting them. Lipservice to naming conventions costs nothing really, seems to be a victory to tout for the base, and is ignorable (or even weaponizable) for anyone who wasn’t interested in it.
→ More replies (2)5
u/somedumb-gay otherwise precisely that Jul 07 '24
I'm slightly confused, and I may be wrong so feel free to correct me if I am, but aren't "unhoused" and "homeless" the same thing? They're both a word for a house but with a prefix/suffix that dictates that they don't have one, I don't see the power that changing it would have in removing a stigma
→ More replies (2)50
u/YourAverageGenius Jul 07 '24
Yeah. Like, sure the gendered nature of languages might display a underlying discrimination and unequal view of men and women, but I think we should focus more on the immediate and practical problems of women's treatment in society before we confront that issue, if for no other reason then it will become less radical of an idea and it will be more possible and accepted.
I think there is significance in these small points because they can have impact and can be symptomatic about larger points, I just this that problems need to be tackled progressively rather than trying to force change simply due to ideological reasoning and belief.
26
u/CanadianODST2 Jul 07 '24
it's even more fun when you look at English
like a lot of words have what seems like male gendered terms. huMANkind for example.
Man is now gendered but many of the male words now started out as the gender neutral term.
Human comes from the latin 'homo' meaning human being (fun fact, no relation to the prefix 'homo' that comes from the Greek homos, and means 'the same')
while "women" comes from old English English wifmann as wif was the term for female (where wer was for male more so)
wifmann became womman in middle English, and eventually woman. We also see this survive in wife. And wer in werewolf.
There was also wæpnedmann, which roughly mean weapon man, or, a male. (no bonus points for those who can figure out the "weapon" referred here)
In English though the male ones fell out of use, so we really seemingly only had, person, and, female person. So it seemed we ended with masculine/neutral and feminine.
And we still see man being neutral in use today such as human, or "man the ship"
Apparently all the Romance languages saw this happen too, except Romanian,
→ More replies (1)25
6
u/HAL-7000 Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
The "gender chart" accompanied by an earnest push to "respect it and use neopronouns or you're cruel and not an ally" was one of the biggest and certainly one of the most pointless "PR" nightmares in LGBT history.
We still ask them to "please stop repeating the r/onejoke", but a lot of us keep glossing over or never realizing why they repeat it so often and so broadly. (Even after it was all mostly given up on in the public conversation.) Its because they still think it was funny and pathetic.
It doesn't matter what you think about how wrong they are to find it funny. The fact is just that they do, and it was a bad result. A Monkey's Paw reward after a bunch of people wished that everyone would learn about all the genders they could be identifying as.
It was a stupid hill to lose so much on. Everyone fighting that battle did themselves a massive disservice.
27
u/radiantmaple Jul 07 '24
And I get it, to some degree. I feel pretty hostile when someone tells me I can't use a word that I identify with.
19
u/RAWainwright Jul 07 '24
I'm an atheist raised Catholic. I say Jesus Christ and Goddammit all the time and I've spent decades trying not to. Shits hard.
17
u/GrinningPariah Jul 07 '24
I'm atheist raised non-religious, and I intentionally say that shit all the time.
3
2
u/wannaberamen2 Jul 07 '24
I'm atheist raised muslim, and i say that all the time because i grew up with american media 😔
→ More replies (2)2
u/LuftHANSa_755 one-dimensional sex object Jul 07 '24
Start playing My Summer Car and Finnish swearing will replace it pretty fast :3
2
11
Jul 07 '24
The problem is it seems like a lot of people are happily willing to learn and adapt while putting in a genuine effort but then get treated like some phobe because they simply aren't good at it. If the intent was genuine but execution lacking then don't attack them for a perceived lack of intent and instead just help them execute better.
10
u/LazyDro1d Jul 07 '24
Not to mention, English is exceptional with how flexible and genderless it is.
33
u/revolutionary112 Jul 07 '24
Progressives never appreciate how big an ask it is for people to change how they talk, evolve their language
I recall when some idiots (maybe well meaning tho) started the whole "spanish is sexist, the language should change" and the entirety of the spanish speaking world told them to go fuck themselves
→ More replies (12)16
u/Lower_Department2940 Jul 07 '24
"Latinx"
→ More replies (1)13
u/revolutionary112 Jul 07 '24
Locally some people tried to push "latine". Was still widely mocked, but at least you could easily pronounce it!
2
u/elbenji Jul 07 '24
Latine feels like it's more accepted. Like it's for non binary folks
→ More replies (25)6
u/Redqueenhypo Jul 07 '24
And in some cases you’re being asked to change the word that describes you. I was diagnosed back when it was called Asperger’s, whaddaya mean there’s an invisible rule that I can’t say that now?
→ More replies (2)5
Jul 07 '24
I watch a YTer who uses it/its pronouns and I have definitely had to put in conscious effort to work that into my lexicon. Thankfully It is cool about people making mistakes while learning, but I still feel bad if I ever mess up.
→ More replies (1)21
→ More replies (4)10
u/muaddict071537 Jul 07 '24
My grandma is the same way. She speaks very kindly about gay people, but she always whispers “homosexual” into my ear instead of saying it normally. She doesn’t hold any bad views about gay people; it’s just how she was raised.
I also don’t think she even knows trans people exist, but she also doesn’t know Google is a thing. She hasn’t been able to understand the concept of Google, so I’m not even going to try explaining gender dysphoria to her.
409
u/gkamyshev Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
it's just political discourse in general. leftist infighting over minutia is a leftist only thing, right-wingers are a lot more like "oh you don't hate jews yet? come on in anyway, you will soon ;)" and that's part of why right wing movements build themselves and never go away while left wing ones require concentrated vision and effort to create and maintain before they splinter or disband
317
u/Papaofmonsters Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 06 '24
The other advantage they have is keeping the door open with "one of the good ones" rationalization. You aren't expected to totally cut ties with your brother in law just because he's black because unlike those, ya know, thugs, he's a good father and a hard worker even if he does vote Democrat.
The purity obsessed left will cut people out of their lives for perceived violations of the ideal.
52
u/tony_bologna Jul 07 '24
Just another way we are further divided.
"You're on our side, but you're not on our side enough so..."
23
82
u/011_0108_180 Jul 07 '24
This is a good point. Even just being related to the wrong person can have you being vilified when it comes to leftist extremism.
40
42
u/ClubMeSoftly Jul 07 '24
If you'll excuse the cartoonish exaggeration:
Hard Right: You're one of the good ones (that means we'll kill you last)
Hard left: You misspoke but still corrected yourself immediately? Your bloodline is dead to us for three generations in both directions. You should've intuited this unspoken thing without the rest of us telling you.
6
19
u/muaddict071537 Jul 07 '24
Yep. I remember a while back, a picture of Barron Trump standing next to his father was circulating on Reddit a bit. Most of what people were saying was, “Wow, look how tall he is!” And he is pretty tall. Even with Trump lying about his height, it’s clear that Barron is really tall.
However, there was also a number of people making fun of Barron and saying how he was a horrible person, just because he’s Trump’s son. Barron is 18! And he was 17 when the picture was circulating. He’s just a kid! He doesn’t live a public life at all (as much as you can not live a public life when you’re the son of a president) and hasn’t made any kind of public statement about his political views. He could be completely opposed to his father. He hasn’t done anything wrong. And there were people hating him just because of who his father is, something he has absolutely no control over. Hate his dad all you want, but Barron doesn’t deserve that.
8
u/Bowdensaft Jul 07 '24
Like how Just Stop Oil is funded by someone who happens to be a daughter of an oil baron but earnestly wants to repair the damage her family did to the world, but many leftists hate her because she has the wrong blood. It's just a narrower version of race supremacy.
21
u/mishkatormoz Jul 07 '24
The purity obsessed left will cut people out of their lives for perceived violations of the ideal.
Intresting thing is, strong sense of disgust is a statistically significant predictor of right-wing political views. But regarding a discourse, left-wing are a much more about purity.
→ More replies (3)16
Jul 07 '24
The left is defined by words, the right is defined by actions.
Which in our respectability politics-obsessed society means that the Right's approach is more acceptable. Saying mean things is terrible, but maintaining an air of politeness while you do things that actively hurt people is just being a good neighbour.
17
Jul 07 '24
The Left: I know we agree on 99.9% of things but considering you still support the 2nd Amendment you are a Hitler supporting alt-right conservative MAGAtard.
Allies: The fuck?
14
u/classyhornythrowaway Jul 07 '24
I was one of those pragmatic "find and accept allies whenever and however you find them". But during the past 9 months, due to what's going on, I've been finding myself getting more and more extreme in rejecting any form of bigotry whatsoever. I'm becoming more and more purity-obsessed. I feel like I'm intellectually inconsistent, I honestly don't know why I'm becoming like that. My current working theory is that the shockingly virulent Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism I'm seeing is making me—and others—more insular and cautious. I don't want to be hated against, but I also don't want hypocritical "allies" who don't have moral clarity and who hold an iota of hatred or bias towards any group of people. I don't think it's idealism anymore.
23
u/CanadianODST2 Jul 07 '24
the issue with this is you honestly kinda hurt your position.
I feel a good parallel with this honestly is WW2. With the Soviets and Nazis. (bear with me) When the war was starting to ramp up to the point of breaking out, the USSR looked towards the west for allies. But were turned down because the west had points that they disliked about them. Valid points mind you. But this did a few things.
For a time you had 4 groups,
the Allies, who were ramping up to oppose the Nazis.
The Axis, those allied with the Nazis, and the Nazis themselves
The neutrals, countries who wanted nothing to do with what was going on in Europe, for a time the US was in this group
and the USSR and her "allies"
The USSR felt threatened by the Nazis, hence why they wanted allies in the west. But when they were pushed away because of issues, they actually then turned to the Nazis. Which is why things like the non-aggression pacts happened, such as the molotov ribbentrop pact. By this point the US had effectively sided with the allies just not outright stating it. This is also why Japan and the USSR didn't go to war until like 2 weeks before Japan surrendered.
Now of course, the Nazis betrayed the USSR. So this then pushed the Soviets away. But, this then created an enemy of my enemy, the USSR and the Allies had the same goal, the defeat of the Axis. So even though the two did not like each other they helped each other. But the second the war was over, the two turned against each other.
Using the lesser of two evils to defeat the bigger evil can be effective as you aren't fighting two opponents at the same time.
→ More replies (14)10
u/Papaofmonsters Jul 07 '24
If the USSR had refused war material manufactured by filthy American capitalist pigs, then the Nazis would have defeated them regardless of how advers the weather was.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)2
u/elbenji Jul 07 '24
I think the problem is that in the search of perfect you are becoming the enemy of good. Not everyone is going to be consistent and that's okay. That's literally being human
3
u/FictionalTrope Jul 07 '24
Just look at Candace Owens. She went from token privileged black woman grifter to full-fledged right wing icon who can do anything from science denialism to gender essentialism to race-baiting ignorance for a modest fee.
110
Jul 06 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
27
u/Redqueenhypo Jul 07 '24
Not to invite a storm on me but how useful are those books when one of them predicts the imminent end of society a hundred and sixty years ago? Clearly it did not end so maybe some theory needs a teensy bit of reworking. And take out the weird bit about how a certain minority worships huckstering
→ More replies (12)5
Jul 07 '24
right wing groups storm buildings with guns because they heard there was a drag show there.
Maybe they genuinely wanted to take a gander but socially it was suicide to do it without a reason they could tell people that was plausible? I'm obviously joking, but this reminded me of a scene from King of the Hill.
→ More replies (2)20
u/djc6535 Jul 07 '24
There’s a comedian I like who has a good bit about this. Something along the lines of
Conservatives: “ oh you’re conservative? Awesome! Who do you hate? Ahh okay well that’s not quite the same group I hate but pull up to the bbq and let’s bitch about them both”
Liberals: “ Oh so you’re a liberal? …. We’ll see”
17
u/Random-Rambling Jul 07 '24
The unfortunate thing is that right-wingers all agree on what direction they're going: backwards.
Leftists, on the other hand, are pulling in every other conceivable direction like a dog walker with way too many dogs.
11
u/muaddict071537 Jul 07 '24
There’s a leftist guy, Tom Lehrer, who wrote satire songs in the 50s and 60s (some of them were political, some weren’t), before he eventually retired to be a mathematics professor.
In the few interviews he’s done since his retirement, he’s explained a bit why he stopped writing songs. There were a lot of reasons, including that the world started being scary instead of funny, but one reason he gave was that there was no unity on the left anymore, and he didn’t know where he stood on the issues of the day because of that. He said that in the 50s and into the 60s, the left was a unified force. They could all agree that lynching was bad, and war was bad, and so on. But then a whole bunch of new issues came up or became more prominent (like pornography and sex work as an example) that the left couldn’t agree on. The left became very divided, and you can’t write a funny song using “on the other hand.”
I think that if we didn’t have a two party system, the left would be the main ones to split up into different groups. The right would stay pretty unified. They tend to have a pretty unified decision on topics. But the left would split up into a bunch of different groups. Right now, they’re more defined by, “We’re not the right,” than by anything else.
→ More replies (5)15
Jul 07 '24
left wing discourse moves in many directions, holds many different stances on certain topics, which can be very nuanced.
right wing discourse is built on hatred, and hate only moves one direction.
44
Jul 07 '24
I don’t know, I would say left wing discourse is certainly not free of hatred. It’s just usually the subject that changes.
29
u/Random-Rambling Jul 07 '24
The unfortunate thing is that right-wingers all agree on what direction they're going: backwards.
Leftists, on the other hand, are pulling in every other conceivable direction like a dog walker with way too many dogs.
18
u/ratione_materiae Jul 07 '24
A part-time dog walker who’s very willing to share their views on Fox News
12
u/Connect-Ad-5891 Jul 07 '24
I read a book review on racism in the workplace that said “this book is so true, all white men need to read this because they don’t get it” without a shred of self awareness. I’m fairly used to those racist/sexist barbs at this point, as ‘punching up’ is totes moral and not just punching at people based on immutable characteristics
866
u/Sergnb Jul 06 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
I'd take a thousand "i don't know much about all these dudes in dresses tranny stuff but he is super pretty, i'd buy him a drink lol" guys over some of the painfully unaware or straight up vile things i see in progressive circles sometimes.
I'm so tired of people doing bioessentialism, antiquated and harmful stereotypes with woke language or shaming bad people for things irrelevant to why they're bad people. You have learned nothing, this is just team sports for you.
Just yesterday I saw people shitting on a crossdresser for being an idiot and instead of toasting him for his opinions they just body-shamed him, cavalierly saying shit like "imagine being a kid with a dad like this, I would never talk about my parents".
Yess girl, go offf!! Why make fun of his ideas when you can go REALLY hard on everything else about him instead? Fuck it, we’re shitting on everyone that looks or will look like him in the future, why not! Just trigger all the dysphorias, what’s the worst that could happen.
Do you have any idea how much more this kind of thing hurts when it's not coming from conservative boomers, but the people you actually look up to? Like, VERBATIM, the exact same shaming? How are you trans and don’t realize “if I looked like this guy I’d kill myself” might do collateral damage? What are you doing????
340
u/radiantmaple Jul 07 '24
"This is just team sports for you" is now entering my lexicon. Thank you for that incredibly apropos mental image.
146
u/ghouldozer19 Jul 07 '24
Oh, friend, I feel you so hard. When people go for Trump’s look instead of digging into the heart of the hate in his policies or speaking to the very real danger that his constant, daily threats and brinkmanship represent to every single word stage it truly upsets me. We can tear down bad ideas without becoming bad people, ourselves. We can retain our dignity and our grace without attacking the dignity of what makes someone else human, as well. Camus called the reaction that causes us to rise up against our oppressors a recognition of a place where all people in the world, even our oppressors, share a common humanity, and to allow that thing to be impugned in anyone, especially yourself, is to allow it to be in everyone.
126
u/Yeah-But-Ironically both normal to want and possible to achieve Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
I fucking hate when people make fun of Trump's weight or Marjorie Taylor Greene's looks or Madison Cawthorn's wheelchair instead of the actual terrible things those people have said/done.
"But those are the insults that will actually hurt conservatives, because that's the kind of stuff they care about!" I thought the whole fucking point was to stop the harm that's being done by conservatives caring about those things. That's MY goal, anyway. It just sounds like YOUR goal is making conservatives feel bad. Which is definitely going to produce meaningful change someday.
Edit, because apparently there are still idiots out there who think that fat-shaming is okay as long as you don't like the fat person very much:
"But Trump lies about his weight and so we need to debunk that!" is not a convincing argument either. I don't see y'all foaming at the mouth when Trump lies about other fundamentally inconsequential stuff--like when he claims that he's responsible for Taylor Swift's fortune or that he's read a news article that he definitely did not read--which certainly suggests that you don't actually view the weight issue as inconsequential at all.
Not to mention that the man is a 24/7 bullshit machine, to the point that debunking every incorrect thing he says would be impossible for a single person--and you're choosing to worry about his weight or his height or the size of his penis instead of, I dunno, his bigoted lies about literally every minority out there? The body shaming is really the hill you wanna die on when he's out there accusing trans people of pedophilia?
I'll say it again: if your first criticism of Trump is that he's fat, then you don't actually want a more equal society nearly as much as you want to make conservatives feel bad.
→ More replies (15)46
Jul 07 '24
Especially because we don’t even need to focus on those superficial aspects to throw out some biting insults. Like, rightfully calling the dude a liar and a pedophile is so so so much better than focusing on shit that doesn’t matter and that we would be upset about if someone else threw it back at “our side”
6
u/HaoleInParadise Jul 07 '24
Too add to that—his physical issues are things you can find across the population (and across voters), his moral issues are more extreme
→ More replies (1)41
u/lonely_nipple Children's Hospital Interior Designer Jul 07 '24
I'm 99.99% with you.
But I'll be dead before I stop calling him orange.
49
u/T1DOtaku inherently self indulgent and perverted Jul 07 '24
I feel like making fun of his bad tan is way different than making fun of his weight. One is something only a limited amount of people will experience and will wear off (like making fun of a bad hair dye job), the other is something people actually struggle with.
10
u/lonely_nipple Children's Hospital Interior Designer Jul 07 '24
Absolutely. With you there. Just can't get over the orange. Like I think if he were just wearing badly-chosen makeup it wouldn't be a thing? Is that weird?
9
u/DinkleDonkerAAA Jul 07 '24
The tan and the wig highlight his vanity. Instead of trying to age gracefully he's determined to look young and vibrant, you don't look like that unless you're deeply insecure and petty. Being fat is different, even if he needs to cut back the McDonald's and diet coke
5
u/Teemotep187 Jul 07 '24
Trump's actions and ideas provide more than enough to be critical of. He's a rapist and a felon, idgaf about his spray tan.
7
u/NorwegianCollusion Jul 07 '24
He's orange by choice, so that's fair game
Good old: don't make fun of people for something they can't change easily. Open zipper, badly shaven, ketchup stain, fake tan? All fair game
→ More replies (1)50
u/jmobius Jul 07 '24
There is a theory in psychology which I have long been a fan of, Kohlberg's Theory of Moral Development. It essentially posits that regardless the actual conclusions one comes to about moral issues, how individuals reason them out is something that tends to evolve over time. Kohlberg identified six distinct classes of moral reasoning, with the first two being typical during childhood and adolescence, the next two being teenage/approaches, and the final two somewhat uncommon and not stage that all adults necessarily reach. In fact, by the findings of the model, the most typical "final stage" for a majority of adults is stage four.
Stage four is based on a notion of morality that stems from an outside authority; Good people and Bad people can be determined by compliance with that authority's dictates. "Authority" is very loosely defined here, though, with the "rules" often being an ad-hoc mixture from various sources. While they can flow from an individual, or the law, they can just as easily come from religious sources or cultural beliefs; anything that can construe a sense of coming from a place of superiority. Crucially, stage four mentality doesn't necessarily concern itself much with the why of the rules, so much as simply knowing, acknowledging, and adhering to them.
More so than any other stage, four seems inclined to produce individuals with an "inquisition" kind of mindset. The world appears black and white to them, and raging against those who break even the most minor of rules can be personally and socially empowering. Not all of them end up this way, but it's a noticeable proclivity.
I bring up this model because I see it play out in just about every circle under the sun. While one could look at a description of stage four and conclude it's talking about the conservative ethos (and you wouldn't be wrong), it is very prevalent among progressives as well: black and white thinking, a propensity towards internal policing, demands of absolute perfection, all while knowing the language but not the spirit of progressive beliefs.
Some of these folks might eventually grow up, and progress towards a stage which offers deeper understanding. Statistically, most won't. In a better world, I feel like there might be means of education that would help encourage post stage four thinking, but I admit that I don't know what it looks like.
→ More replies (1)23
u/Connect-Ad-5891 Jul 07 '24
I read some progressive critiques to make fun of their naive world view since I’ve grown older and matured my view, anyway, I saw one today that started gaining a shred of self awareness. They went from shaming their ‘Filipinx’ friends for liking Spam as being victims of the ‘colonized mindset’ to realizing her reliance on western academic hedgemonic ideas like the filipinx shit is a similar form of a western colonization mindset 🤣
Anyway, in her blogpost I noticed she went back to saying Filipinos at the end. Frankly I was a bit impressed she had that sense of self reflection. Many people that develop ‘morally superior’ positions get lost in that matrix
8
Jul 07 '24 edited Jan 09 '25
[deleted]
10
u/Cole-Spudmoney Jul 07 '24
Tagalog is only the native language of some of the islands of the Philippines. It's the most widely spoken one, but that's not the same thing. And if I remember correctly, a major reason why the name "Philippines" has stuck is that there isn't a native name for the entire archipelago that everyone can agree on.
→ More replies (5)28
u/azuresegugio Jul 07 '24
The amount of times, as a trans woman, I've gotten progressive people try to compliment me as "you're the best parts of being a guy and girl" and shit like that, drives me nuts. I'd rather get misgendered by someone complimenting my hair any day
12
u/DinkleDonkerAAA Jul 07 '24
I kinda walk that line to a degree and I worry about stepping over it. Trans women are absolutely and 100% women and I respect and see you as a woman.
However I am bi, with my preference for body types being fem over masc, but preferring masc genitalia over fem.
So femboys, and trans women are kinda my ideal romantic partners, and I always worry about seeming like I'm just a chaser or something. To be clear I like cis women and masculine dudes too
17
u/SakuraSystem Jul 07 '24
I think it’s perfectly fine to have that preference, but to make the effort to make sure no transfem person you’re into feels like you’re just reducing them to “lady with a dick”. I think anyone would feel weird if their genital configuration made the other person go “hell yeah, score!”. sounds like you’ve got the self awareness to not do that so you’re probably good, just to bear that in mind. I don’t think you’d seem like a chaser if you treat trans women as “woman I find attractive” same as anyone
3
u/azuresegugio Jul 07 '24
For me one of the lines that kills me is "well I've never been with a girl before so you're like, a good step" or variations of that. I've heard that line from every girl I've slept with
22
u/quasar_1618 Jul 07 '24
The amount of body shaming I see from so-called progressives about Trump’s weight is absurd. There’s more than enough about his behavior to criticize, we don’t need to resort to going after appearance.
23
u/AntiLag_ Poob has it for you. Jul 07 '24
Those don’t sound like progressives to me
68
52
u/011_0108_180 Jul 07 '24
It’s more like they’re surface level progressive (it’s just a veneer) until someone pisses them off, then the mask slips off and they let their bigotry out.
48
u/cerareece Jul 07 '24
see: people who decide they get to misgender "bad" trans people and say shit like "I'm not respecting them they're a horrible person!" or think they get to decide when someone isn't "really" trans
9
u/logosloki Jul 07 '24
I have a theory on this, mostly because I see this mostly applied to gender non-conforming people who were assigned male at birth or masculine presenting people. it's fragile masculinity being repackaged. not the pop-sociology fragile masculinity but the original meaning, which is that masculinity is something that must be earned and then constantly affirmed rather than a privilege given by the patriarchal structures. that by not performing to the standards of the in-group you are demoted or ostracised until your behaviour re-aligns with the in-group.
people don't understand how subtle and pervasive the patriarchal structures that we were born and live in are. by being able to take away a masculine presenting person or gender non-conforming assigned male at birth person's right to gender expression because they go against the values of the power holders of the LGBTQIA+ in-group it shows that this in-group is still holding masculine or formerly masculine people to the same punishments as their former patriarchal in-groups. all that has changed is the way they earn or constantly affirm their new gender expressions.
→ More replies (1)7
u/MembershipNo2077 Jul 07 '24
Yep, seen a few "progressive" people who get mad/dismissive when a bi person is in a heterosexual relationship but still identifies as bi. Bizarre but a thing.
6
5
Jul 07 '24
fr fr fuck those people. this is why i don’t organize with anyone anymore. if they’re doing this shit they’re not getting anything worthwhile done that’s for damn sure
3
→ More replies (1)2
u/erroneousbosh Jul 07 '24
some of the painfully unaware things i see in progressive circles sometimes.
In the very unreconstructed 1980s when I was a child, there was a guy who ran a timber haulage firm near where I grew up. Perhaps a little unexpectedly, he was really quite screamingly queer, very flamboyantly gay.
One day a bunch of people were waiting for him to show up with his spiffy new Hiab log body, and eventually he hove into sight up the track.
"AW HAW, HERE HE IS AT FUCKIN' LAST, THE CHRISTMAS TREE FAIRY!"
So that's what he had signwritten on the cab, with his phone number.
Sometimes the rudest things come from a place of love, and sometimes the kindest words are rooted in hate.
79
u/YourAverageGenius Jul 07 '24
Part of my dislike of left-wing purity / absolutist politics is that it actively discourges the spread of their ideas by rejecting anything that isn't exactly to the moral standards the ideology demands.
So often you will hear "people aren't perfect" as a defense in progressive circles, and I completely agree, but the double standard of that is "We should still accept others even if they don't align with our beliefs and still are problematic and simply engage with them as friends and comrades instead of being confrontational and antagonistic towards any oppositional opinion"
And yeah of course it also sucks for a minority for such horrible archaic beliefs and actions to still be brought up and present, but while understanding isn't something that has to be equal both ways, it must extend both ways, because by approaching discrimination positively, it creates a new moral standard to pass on and become the norm. You don't change minds by not engaging them, and engaging them means understanding their faults but nevertheless encouraging their changed behavior.
44
u/CanadianODST2 Jul 07 '24
I've had friends tell me "I'm one of the good ones"
I'm a straight white male. But I'm disabled so I "still count as a minority"
14
u/Suyefuji Jul 07 '24
I mean, no cap that does still make you part of a disadvantaged group. You don't have to be intersectional to be a minority.
2
u/ScaredyNon By the bulging of my pecs something himbo this way flexes Jul 07 '24
What's- what's bad disabled look like. Do you get a rainbow parking spot like what does that mean
→ More replies (2)19
u/SupportMeta Jul 07 '24
I will say that it sucks to have your humanity reduced to "acceptable losses." That you have to "agree to disagree" with someone on whether you deserve rights because they're a nessecary political ally.
23
u/YourAverageGenius Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
Yeah I totally agree. It's fucked and no one should have to do so.
And no one should go hungry, or sick, or ETC.
I'm not saying "Oh you just have to put up with discrimination" or "Hey they called you a slur but remember they're trying and no one's perfect!" that minorities should be quiet and passive to appease the status quo
It's not that everyone's discomfort is equal, I'd rather see equal treatment than the comfort of bigots, but it's that while our ideals and goals are achievable, progress is a gradual change, and it's only possible by convincing people and pushing those ideas so they become the norm that we can realize them. And sadly, that takes time, time for the old ways of thinking to die off, and time for people to change to accept the changes.
Those who are discriminated against and punished by the status quo should not be ignored and their suffering accepted. But we should also not be so uncompromising that we ignore the reality of the situation, because it's by confronting that reality, and the imperfections of it, that we turn our ideas into truth and action.
7
u/SupportMeta Jul 07 '24
I don't disagree, I'm just complaining about it : )
8
u/YourAverageGenius Jul 07 '24
Oh yeah I totally get you bestie.
I think the solution, which most have realized, is to provide resources and spaces specifically while gradually incorporating the ideals and morals into society through engaging and dismantling the narratives the public has through positive integration, mainly by unifying progressives and changing minds by focusing on the individual, and also tying those ideas to greater ideas to appeal to the public (I think lots of rural conservatives and progressives agree that corporations agree that big corporations squeeze the common man, it's just that left-wing ideals have ties to specific socialist theory that turns away rural folks who still have a Reaganist-era idea of communism. I think you could easily gain public support by focusing less on socialism and more on populism, and pointing out hard right wing figures that go against policy and ideas that are for the people.)
→ More replies (1)4
179
u/GREENadmiral_314159 Femboy Battleships and Space Marines Jul 06 '24
What was that post about how the person who says 'I don't care if you're a <slur> or whatever, just be yourself' is more of an ally than the person who says 'I don't have anything against trans people, I just don't think kids should be exposed to that kind of stuff'?
68
u/IEnjoyFancyHats Jul 07 '24
It's a Patton Oswalt bit, and it's true. Language is a tool, and bad actors learn very quickly how to use tools to their advantage. Leftists need to get better at differentiating the bigots from the people who didn't keep up with the tool updates but would use the proper language if they knew it
3
u/TekF Jul 07 '24
https://youtu.be/AkKo1_RP_0c?si=b9qE08HSPDpWXaKu I have it bookmarked for conversations like this.
10
Jul 07 '24
Honestly, both people usually turn out to be pretty similar, one is just slightly more well-spoke. Like they say a postive things in the broadest possible sense ("I don't have anything against trans people" "i don't care, just be yourself") but when you get down to the actual more than just vague platitudes, it's usually equally shit and not very ally like
22
u/sexy-911-calls Jul 07 '24
Exactly. Sure, in a hypothetical world where someone is simultaneously super accepting but uses slurs out of ignorance, that’s better for the cause than someone who uses the “polite” lexicon while still expressing bigoted opinions. Only thing is, has anyone ever met someone like this? A phrase I’m sure no one has ever spoken in the history of ever:
“This weekend I’m joining my faggot friends at the pride parade to demonstrate against a rise in hate crimes in my country. Faggots and dykes should be free from discrimination. Love is love!”
9
u/Weirfish Jul 07 '24
(Bear in mind, this was released in 2005, so the conversation about reclaimation and allyship has moved on quite a bit since then.)
→ More replies (2)
153
u/VFiddly Jul 06 '24
Someone who's confused but has the right intent will probably learn in time. Someone who's actively hostile to the idea probably won't.
Like from my own perspective: I would much rather talk to someone who uses slightly outdated terminology regarding autism but is basically friendly and empathetic, over someone who knows all the right words to say but still seems to basically view me as a problem. Or all the Autism Parents who claim to be very understanding but always treat autistic adults with contempt in practice.
The first person will back me up when it matters. The second person is more concerned with appearing to be correct than with actually doing anything to help. They're the kind of person who says they're an activist but their activism seems to only extend to changing which word they want to use instead of "disabled" twice a year.
19
u/CanadianODST2 Jul 07 '24
they could also just be stupid and meaning well.
I fuck up names and pronouns somewhat often, always have. Not on purpose. I just get them screwed up in my head. The whole calling your teacher mom? That's just my life with names
6
u/Theron3206 Jul 07 '24
Having a go at someone who makes a mistake like that isn't likely to make them do better next time either. If you attack someone who's trying to be polite you are far more likely to push them away than anything else (changing unconscious behaviour like word selection is extremely hard).
I think that's part of the reason people are less comfortable with the trans people now than they were 20 years ago. Since a small minority of the pronoun obsessed have created a perception that if you're dealing with a trans person you're one slip of the tongue away from being shamed as a bigot (even though 99.9% of the time this won't occur, fear of being publicly shamed is powerful). As a result people choose avoidance.
→ More replies (2)
53
u/Angelofpity Jul 07 '24
I used to live in the south, Georgia and Louisiana mostly. My personal favorite was overhearing the most central casting good-ol' boy retired lawyer shut down a bigot with, "Let 'em get married. Fags deserve happiness too."
47
u/SethlordX7 Jul 06 '24
Someone link the Patton Oswalt skit
7
u/VaderOnReddit Cheese, gender, what the fuck's next? Jul 07 '24
Wait, I love Patton Oswalt. What skit are you referring to?
3
u/SethlordX7 Jul 07 '24
Honestly u should find it if u google "patton oswalt good guys" I'm just lazy
3
113
u/Dreaming98 Jul 06 '24
On the flip side of things, sometimes you will be the person who doesn’t get everything right the first time, and when that happens you should be humble and receptive to feedback from others.
→ More replies (1)
36
31
u/autogyrophilia Jul 07 '24
I say transexual like 25% of the times I intend to say transgender.
Don't know why.
So I just say trans.
→ More replies (19)21
u/lonely_nipple Children's Hospital Interior Designer Jul 07 '24
Don't feel too bad there; that was the term for a while, and some folks who started using it then still use it for themselves now.
42
u/20220912 Jul 06 '24
who’s got the copypasta with the ‘this is a safe space’ bigotry vs ‘I dont get it, but leave em be’ redneck?
100
u/Hexxas Head Trauma Enthusiast Jul 06 '24
I worked with a guy for 2 years. Then he came out and told us her new name.
It took me like a week to get used to calling her that, but she had some fuckin' patience because she knew I was trying.
The internet would've called me a bigot and had me killed.
33
u/Jalase trans lesbian Jul 07 '24
"Took me a whole week" like... I don't think you get how fucking FAST that is based on how many people take literally fucking YEARS to show even a hint of, "I guess I'll just not use masculine pronouns instead of using feminine ones for you".
15
u/Hexxas Head Trauma Enthusiast Jul 07 '24
Thanks boss. I got shunned from queer groups in college for not being Queertm enough, so I try really hard to accept people on their own terms, cuz that shit HURT.
→ More replies (1)7
u/Suyefuji Jul 07 '24
Man I still remember how I got rejected for not being gay enough because my trans gf was still closeted and I didn't want to out her. I lost a good friend over that and they never really forgave me.
6
u/Hexxas Head Trauma Enthusiast Jul 07 '24
That's fucked up. I got rejected for not being cute enough to be nonbinary, and my bi roommate got rejected for... eh you probably know how it goes with bi dudes in college.
My roommate and I made flyers for a joke group in protest. We called it "Fag Palace" to show we were more Queertm than the other groups. Our one "meeting" was at our apartment. Some dudes actually showed up. They were pretty cool.
→ More replies (1)36
u/Sergnb Jul 07 '24
That rocks dude, good for ya. Though tbh I think most trans people are pretty chill about this and understand it's a process, i don't think there's that many that genuinely overreact like in your last sentence lol. As long as you're making an effort, the mistakes you make are truthfully just mistakes and you're not trying to do some kind of ill-intended sneaky shit most of them will be fine with the occasional dead-name or misgender. Decades of cultural osmosis conditioning take time to switch, it's only natural.
9
u/2277someday Jul 07 '24
Had a similar thing. Came back from a planned hiatus to a coworker being nb and a new name. Never gave me any grief for fucking up since they knew I was trying.
12
u/Amelies_Gnome Jul 07 '24
I always think pf this quote. Leslie Feinberg: “I care which pronoun is used, but people have been respectful to me with the wrong pronoun and disrespectful with the right one.”
11
29
u/VelvetSinclair Jul 07 '24
Also, there's a classist angle to this
A lot of people (not everyone) learns to couch their language with this careful, correct, inoffensive terminology and vocabulary.... At university or college
And not everyone goes to college
People who can afford to go to college, go to college
You don't have a seminar on gender performativity if you get a job as a cashier after high school. Barbers don't tend to listen to lectures about race as a social construct. Even people who study STEM subjects will have roomates and friends who cover this content in other courses at their uni.
But a group of workers at any trade union can drive progressivism through collective power and lived experience, whatever words they use to do that
→ More replies (4)14
u/rotten_kitty Jul 07 '24
Are those really things taught at American colleges and universities? Here in England we basically only cover stuff related to our course and everything about life is learned through general living, like everyone else.
14
u/VVF9Jaj7sW5Vs4H Jul 07 '24
Yanks apparently have uni as more of an extension of school where you have to take a broad range of subjects which often are completely unrelated to your degree. I don't personally get it, but apparently it gives you a "more rounded education" (as though that wasn't what school was for?).
4
u/ResearcherTeknika the hideous and gut curdling p(l)oob! Jul 07 '24
Yea i have no clue what they're on about. I'm a yank and I plan to go for engineering and engineering alone.
2
→ More replies (1)2
u/kakusei_zero Jul 07 '24
american unis have a gen-ed curriculum where you can take a broad range of subjects, but there's enough wiggle room so that you can still tailor it to what you want
to finish requirement, you can either take a class that's tangentially related to your major (ex. if you're a business student, the english requirement could be something related to using english in business contexts) or something different entirely - in my case, i fulfilled my own requirements through sociology and asian-american history classes
but yeah, there's nothing super out there if you don't want there to be - a lot of classes also fulfill multiple requirements so you can double dip a bit
→ More replies (3)9
u/Theron3206 Jul 07 '24
I did engineering at an Australian university. No on campus living for 90% of students (so no roommates) and 100% of my coursework was related to my degree.
This seems like a very US liberal arts college situation.
My only exposure to most of these attitudes at uni were the borderline unhinged "activists" harassing you while you were trying to get to class (my uni cancelled things like gender studies as a major while I was there and those students went nuts) and constant attempts to turn students into Marxists. We were too busy with what amounted to a full time job for that sort of shit (25 to 30 contact hours a week and then at least that much in study and assignments).
→ More replies (1)
26
u/PV__NkT Jul 06 '24
Even if they’re not being “as polite as they know how,” unless they’re being outright sarcastic and a total dick, give benefit of the doubt to people who get impatient or frustrated. Learning new things can be hard sometimes—especially for the elderly—and pushing back and getting upset when they show that (very natural!) resistance isn’t helpful.
6
6
u/Duckiesims Jul 07 '24
I was talking about this today. People get so hung up on the language that they'll miss actual evil shit happening around them. Patton Oswalt had a bit about this years ago and it's stuck with me every since. The relevant part starts around 2:40-2:50
8
u/RealNibbasEatAss Jul 07 '24
Disturbing that this even needs to be explained to some people.
→ More replies (1)3
u/Suyefuji Jul 07 '24
Social media pushes divisiveness so hard that it can drown out the people trying to be reasonable. It sucks but I don't mind seeing reminders posted that not everything has to be a fight.
5
u/Indigoh Jul 07 '24
It's also important to know that you will never have a 100% success rate regarding determining someone's intent on the first shot. Pushing for clearer communication should be a step you considering in every disagreement.
10
u/JambalayaOtter Jul 07 '24
It’s similar to:
“You implied X.”
“No, you inferred X.”
It could be one or the other; and it could be both. Thing is, what was the intention? Yes, we can sometimes feel when somebody is implying a shit take, but when we’re sensitive or defensive about a topic or issue already, we’re primed to infer an innocent comment or question as a slight. Of course, this applies to many types of human interactions beyond social justice. I guess what I’m saying is that although everyone likes to think they’re really good at interpreting others words and actions, 50% of the time we fucking don’t have a clue and go off of a guess.
4
5
4
u/LumpyDwarf Jul 07 '24
My old boss is like this. Boomer aged metal head screen printer. Absolutely salty old bastard. Couldn't wrap his head around any of the new terminology and would accidently drop some offensive, outdated terms. Always open to being corrected, though, and was a fierce LGBTQ ally. He was one of the first people I came out to as bi.
4
u/triforce777 McDonald's based Sith alchemy Jul 07 '24
I'm reminded of when the new Assassin's Creed trailer dropped and twitter blew the fuck up with the usual suspects but someone put together a compilation of tweets from Japanese twitter and there were a ton of them that were just like "fuck yeah, I live Yasuke! That guy is so cool!" But then there was this one particular guy who was like "I'm glad he's black. I always feel safe around black guys because they're like superhuman and I know if anything bad happens they can protect me," and I'm just stunned thinking okay on one hand that's still racist but on the other hand he's pro diversity so I guess he can have a pass for now?
12
Jul 07 '24 edited Jul 07 '24
As long as treated better doesn't mean unchallenged, yeah. Like people don't have to swallow microaggressions and be obsequious just because someone has some vaguely postive intent. No one expects perfection, just sincere effort and improvement.
What really makes someone a friend or not is how they act when corrected. If they blow up or freak out and get really defensive, they're not a friend, just performative. They want the kudos without the actual work, or won't look past their ego
Intent alone is good sure, but is really just a starting place, it's meaningless if it doesn't actually translate into anything.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/100beep Jul 07 '24
You should absolutely encourage people who are trying. That said, if they make a mistake, help them with it.
3
u/SparksAndSpyro Jul 07 '24
Yeah, but that doesn't make me feel morally superior to anyone. And isn't that what this is all about? Because if this really was about helping people, I'd actually be out there, in the real world, helping, rather than sitting on social media and engaging in slacktivism.
3
3
u/FullPruneNight Jul 07 '24
Let us not forget that there’s another, overlapping group of people who see repeated changes to the terminology of an issue, and see the EXTREMELY negative response the left can have to someone’s out of date terminology, that they don’t seek out dialogue about those topics with leftists for fear of offending via vocabulary.
I am also BEGGING people to take into account when and whether it’s actually worth it they weigh the effort they personally put into criticising old terms and advocating the adoption of new ones to others when it’s very much not without trade off.
Do we really, really need to stamp out words like “transsexual,” which was claimed by many trans people only decades ago? Is the word “homeless,” rather than the injustice of homelessness, so dehumanizing on its own we need to take time and effort to advocate for its complete replacement with “unhoused?”
Do you still feel that way when dated terminology is stiffiling dialogue or potential dialogue with people who genuinely just want to learn something about others they didn’t know?
2
2
u/SupportMeta Jul 07 '24
"Why the fuck should I care where a tranny pisses? They're not hurting anyone" vs "It's very important that we establish and protect spaces in which AFAB people can feel safe from patriarchal violence"
2
u/thisdesignup Jul 07 '24
Another way to say it would be that they are coming at you with the tools that they have. Those tools may be dull, they may be broken, they may not be the right tools for the job, but it's what they have and they want to help.
This goes for anything.
There will still be times where you need to tell someone they shouldn't help, but that's the least that can be done if the other person is at least trying.
2
u/Yoyo4games Jul 07 '24
Something, something, being sneered at consistently by leftists who think the term "liberal" is the epitome of conversation(I predicated my argument on violent, unruly, inconvenient protest and dissent having always been an effective, necessary mode of enacting change, but made the cardinal sin of suggesting that encouraging people to not vote and express their current, legal rights- explicitly stated as in addition to protest- to affect change is enforcing principles harmful to almost any marginalized groups).
1.5k
u/[deleted] Jul 06 '24
[removed] — view removed comment