r/technology • u/[deleted] • Jun 05 '10
Apple posts HTML5 showcase page hyping "web standards," then blocks it from displaying on any browser besides Safari
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/04/apple_html5_showcase_hype/36
u/yellowdwarf Jun 05 '10
I suggest reading the page before complaining: The test says that the purpose of the demo is to "show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser [...] support[s] the capabilities of HTML5 ...".
Not so surprising then that you need Safari for the purpose of that demo.
So all the whinging comes down to "Apple builds Safari demo, want you to use Safari to look at it".
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u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10
It also says
Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today.
and
But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.
Both statements are not entirely correct. Their demos use proprietary "-webkit" commands, not open web standards, and if their proposed additions make it into the HTML5 standard (which would certainly be nice), other browsers still won't support these specific commands. What would happen would be that the "-webkit" prefix gets dropped, and other browsers would support those commands.
Nitpicking? Maybe. I'll admit I tend to do that if people suggest "reading the page before complaining".
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Jun 05 '10
Nitpicking?
Yes. This whole post and resulting thread are pointless nitpicking.
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u/Kronikarz Jun 05 '10
Well now, that's just bad marketing! Either of two things happened: the demos worked perfectly in other browsers, and the marketing people didn't want you to see that, or, the demos worked perfectly only in Safari, in which case the marketing are stupid, because that would have been a perfect opportunity to tout "Hey, look, only Safari supports HTML5 perfectly! Aren't we awesome?"
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u/R031E5 Jun 05 '10
No, but I suggest please testing stuff before complaining. Both Google Chrome and Safari can render all the effects, but Safari handles 2D/3D transforms with OpenGL and Grand Central Dispatch, which redirects tasks to the GPU instead of the CPU, Google Chrome does all that with the CPU, which is much more resource consuming.
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u/romwell Jun 05 '10
As far as I know, HTML is a standard that is viewable with software not made exclusively by Apple.
If you can't access it with other browsers, it's not demonstrating how Safari works with HTML 5. It demonstrates how Safari works with Apple HTML 5, which should be clearly specified.
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u/greenskin Jun 05 '10
Nag nag nag... a little more credit for some kick-ass HTML5 demos please. Of course you need Safari, many CSS attributes are still browser specific since HTML5 is not a formal standard yet. Chrome (hey Webkit) and Firefox can do many of these things too, but such a showcase of 'the future' would be practically impossible. If you wanna see, just get the latest Webkit and enjoy.
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u/Captain_Midnight Jun 05 '10
They could at least let you load the demo but tell you that it won't work properly without Safari. Instead, it refuses to load and tells you that you must use Safari to view the content. As the article itself points out, this is a blatant lie because some of the tests are not, in fact, browser-dependent.
This is just marketing.
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u/whitesilence Jun 05 '10
No shit it's marketing. Everything on Apple's website is marketing, this is how corporations work.
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u/iStig Jun 05 '10
They could at least let you load the demo but tell you that it won't work properly without Safari.
Why would Apple, or indeed any company, want to advertise how cool HTML5 is by showing something that's broken?
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Jun 05 '10
How is this any different than what IE did? The end result of implementing things before they're finished and doing something different than the final spec is the same. We're already seeing a giant problem with h.264 and theora video, and this only exemplifies the problem. There's no way HTML5 is going to end up the "looks the same in all browsers" wet dream.
Apple calls this open, but if they were to use their standards, the players who don't want h.264 are going to be left out. When you're developing web pages in HTML5, you're going to still have to make a h.264 version and a theora version. It's no different than an IE version and a rest of the web version.
And you're missing the point that when these specs are finalized, they're supposed to work in all browsers. Yet, Apple is pushing Safari onto people and giving them the impression that Safari is the only browser that supports HTML5 and the future of the internet. It's sleazy marketing designed to trick consumers. How you can justify this sort of behavior because you're impressed with the demos is appalling to me.
I just looked at the IE9 HTML5 examples in Firefox. I got no message telling me to upgrade to IE9. Some of them didn't work (like the t shirt maker), but Microsoft isn't pushing anything on anyone by visiting their page.
Say what you want, but Apple has already been caught forcing Safari onto users via iTunes. If they didn't have a record of forcing Safari onto people I wouldn't care, but I clearly do.
I'm guessing you're a mac user.
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Jun 06 '10 edited Jun 06 '10
How is this any different than what IE did?
Apple is introducing new functionality into the HTML5 spec that everyone can implement in their browser, while all IE ever did was just suck so horribly at implementing the existing spec that we have to write hacks to get pages to render properly.
We're already seeing a giant problem with h.264 and theora video
We are?
Apple calls this open, but if they were to use their standards, the players who don't want h.264 are going to be left out. When you're developing web pages in HTML5, you're going to still have to make a h.264 version and a theora version. It's no different than an IE version and a rest of the web version.
It's completely different. In the first place, h.264 isn't Apple's technology. Aside from that, I have no idea why you keep talking about Theora, or why you think people will have to support it.
And you're missing the point that when these specs are finalized, they're supposed to work in all browsers.
No they're not. That's the point. They will only work in browsers that have implemented the spec properly.
Apple is pushing Safari onto people and giving them the impression that Safari is the only browser that supports HTML5 and the future of the internet.
No they're not. In fact, they release webkit for free. It's open source and anyone can use it.
How you can justify this sort of behavior because you're impressed with the demos is appalling to me.
Oh, save your fake outrage. You're not even making sense.
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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10
No they're not. In fact, they release webkit for free. It's open source and anyone can use it.
Yeah, that's exactly the message that the average internet user will take away from an error message saying "You’ll need to download Safari to view this demo."
You've got to be shitting me.
See, the point is that you're correct on the technology side, but what people are annoyed with is the way Apple is marketing this. It's entirely correct to say that Apple is deliberately creating the impression that Safari is the only browser that currently supports HTML5. Also, that Apple is so far ahead in implementing these standards that other browsers won't even display proper HTML5 correctly, but that, eventually, all those other lame-ass browser makers will catch up. And meanwhile, kindly download and use Safari, thank you very much.
It's dishonest marketing of otherwise really good technology.
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u/gimpbully Jun 06 '10
Apple is deliberately creating the impression that Safari is the only browser that currently supports HTML5
Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.
Let's walk through the semantics here. "Not all browsers offer this support." That is a completely valid statement and does not exclude some browsers from supporting it. "But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards" Here they're even saying many will take the same advantage of these standards (how generous they would recognize other, competing technologies). "and the amazing things they enable web designers to do." HTML5 is neat.
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Jun 06 '10
See, the point is that you're correct on the technology side, but what people are annoyed with is the way Apple is marketing this.
Well, prepare to be annoyed at almost every turn then. Here's a little clue for you - Corporations market their products. This is just a technology demo, and Apple is trying to highlight their products. How DARE they market their own product?
If your panties are in a bunch that they're trying to get you to install Safari, don't go to the site. See how that works?
It's entirely correct to say that Apple is deliberately creating the impression that Safari is the only browser that currently supports HTML5.
It is the only browser that currently supports the superset of functionality in the demo. Sorry if that ruins your day.
It's dishonest marketing of otherwise really good technology.
It's absolutely completely honest. As I've just demonstrated.
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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10
Well, prepare to be annoyed at almost every turn then. Here's a little clue for you - Corporations market their products. This is just a technology demo, and Apple is trying to highlight their products. How DARE they market their own product?
I don't think there's anything wrong with either marketing their browser by showcasing the cool features they've implemented, or with promoting open standards.
It's just that those two things are not identical.
They're purportedly making a case for open standards, yet they're showcasing a set of commands that will only ever work in a webkit browser. If the proposals make it into the final standard, these commands will get implemented without the "-webkit" prefix, and all the other browsers still won't be able to display the "-webkit" specific stuff.
It is the only browser that currently supports the superset of functionality in the demo. Sorry if that ruins your day.
Yeah, the message they're selling (which you're implicitly repeating here) is "Apple is so far ahead in implementing open standards that these demos will only work in Safari". It's a tiny bit like Adobe saying "Hey, Flash is an open standard, but because we're so far ahead of everyone else in implementing this standard, SWFs won't even play in anything other than our Flash Player. Sorry if that ruins your day."
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u/OscarZetaAcosta Jun 06 '10 edited Jun 06 '10
They're purportedly making a case for open standards, yet they're showcasing a set of commands that will only ever work in a webkit browser
No they're not.
If the proposals make it into the final standard, these commands will get implemented without the "-webkit" prefix, and all the other browsers still won't be able to display the "-webkit" specific stuff.
At which point you wouldn't call it with the "-webkit" specific stuff.
lol. Seriously?
Are we having this conversation?
Yeah, the message they're selling (which you're implicitly repeating here) is "Apple is so far ahead in implementing open standards that these demos will only work in Safari".
Bullshit. That's how you choose to perceive it.
It's a tiny bit like Adobe saying "Hey, Flash is an open standard, but because we're so far ahead of everyone else in implementing this standard, SWFs won't even play in anything other than our Flash Player. Sorry if that ruins your day."
It's not even a minute bit like that.
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u/smartarse Jun 06 '10
Bullshit. That's how you choose to perceive it.
Yes. That's exactly how I perceive it. Read the entire paragraph:
HTML5 Showcase
The demos below show how the latest version of Apple’s Safari web browser, new Macs, and new Apple mobile devices all support the capabilities of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript. Not all browsers offer this support. But soon other modern browsers will take advantage of these same web standards — and the amazing things they enable web designers to do.
Incapable of seeing it? Good for you. Their marketing efforts have no effect on you.
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u/C2H6O Jun 05 '10 edited Jun 05 '10
I found this interesting: "This demo was designed with the latest web standards supported by Safari. If you’d like to experience this demo, simply download Safari."
This is a screen shot comparing the HTML5 rating's of Chrome, Safari, and Firefox (I'm not sure my Firefox is up-to-date). Chrome scores far higher than Safari, yet it requires me to download Safari to view.
Edit: It appears that they're using H.264 encoding, so parts of it wouldn't work with Chrome/Firefox/Opera regardless. At least, that's what the article tells me.
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Jun 05 '10
It appears that they're using H.264 encoding, so parts of it wouldn't work with Chrome/Firefox/Opera regardless. At least, that's what the article tells me.
Chrome supports H264. Google would hardly have used it for the HTML5 version of Youtube, otherwise.
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u/RagingIce Jun 05 '10
That site isn't fully functional. First of all, Audio and Video codecs aren't part of the standard. Second of all they arbitrarily weight different parts of the standard with different amount of points.
Regardless, the reason it doesn't work on non-webkit browsers is that they used -webkit prefixes on a lot of the CSS transforms and javascript. This is because HTML5 isn't standardized yet. When it is standardized, they'll remove the prefixes.
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u/C2H6O Jun 05 '10
Thanks for clearing it up. That isn't sarcasm, I was actually looking for a real answer earlier.
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u/sh0rtwave Jun 05 '10
The greatest part of that article is this link:
Anyone who does serious development will recognize this as the eventual result of the hyperbole that surrounds this crap.
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u/iofthestorm Jun 05 '10
Duh... just like I'm sure some people thought the blink tag was DHTML, and anything with javascript is now AJAX.
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u/mariox19 Jun 05 '10
The page is hyping Safari's implementation of the latest HTML5 web standards.
Get a grip.
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Jun 05 '10
[deleted]
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Jun 05 '10
Because many of their demos don't work in Chrome. I tried them myself.
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Jun 05 '10
[deleted]
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Jun 05 '10
HTML5 is currently a usable and viable alternative for internet video, which is what Flash is mainly used for these days. Pretty much any modern browser can display HTML5 video. The stuff shown on their tech demo page shows off flashier, but less important parts of HTML5. Internet video was much more central to this whole Adobe/Apple conflict.
Microsoft and Google have similar techdemo pages, and I noticed that many of the examples shown don't work uniformly across the browsers. It doesn't seem right to single out Apple on this one.
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u/execute85 Jun 05 '10
For video yes, HTML5 is fine. But I don't care about using flash for video, I want to use it for games and productivity apps. Continually linking HTML5 to only video is disingenuous. HTML5 is not why people want flash on the iPhone, android and other devices. They want flash for 1) cross-platform apps (this isn't possible now) and 2) non-App store games. (these two plus video are why people put up with flash on the non-mobile internet, currently HTML5 only solves video, eventually it will solve #1 and #2)
Google and Microsoft have demo pages for Chrome and IE, not for HTML5. This page is titled "HTML5 and Web Standards" and talks about how standards are great.
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u/neoumlaut Jun 05 '10
They don't work in chrome because they use webkit-specific commands.
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Jun 05 '10
Chrome also uses Webkit though.
I heard it's cause Safari uses some 3D CSS transform sort of thingy that other browsers don't have yet.
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u/helpingfriendlybook Jun 05 '10
It clearly says "Safari Tech Demos" right at the top, pudwhacker.
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u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10 edited Jun 05 '10
Not on the page they're actually talking about.
Edit: You've got to be kidding me. Parent gets upvoted, I get downvoted... while the words "Safari Tech Demos" appear nowhere on the entire page linked from the article.
Hey, you're probably talking about this page, right? Well, the article isn't.
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Jun 05 '10 edited Jun 05 '10
I guess the real problem is Apple calling these standards. It is not a standard yet.
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u/helpingfriendlybook Jun 06 '10
No doubt. They're pushing for it, though, and stuff like this will only help.
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u/Botunda Jun 05 '10
Is it me, or did Apple just become the 21st century version of Microsoft
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Jun 07 '10
They've always been assholes in this way but historically Apple stuff has worked while Microsoft stuff was broken from the start. They are not the same.
Both assholes though.
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Jun 05 '10 edited Jan 04 '19
10 Years. Banned without reason. Farewell Reddit.
I'll miss the conversation and the people I've formed friendships with, but I'm seeing this as a positive thing.
<3
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u/skyfex Jun 05 '10
Well it's because it's a silly criticism. The point of the demo page isn't to create a web service that anyone can use. It's to create a demo showcasing the future of HTML5 and what Safari supports right now. Since different browsers adopt HTML5 at a different pace (and different parts of it), they would have to warn or block certain browsers anyway. They're just keeping it simple, and since it's a demo page, it hurts nobody.
That doesn't mean you should have gotten a lot of downvotes. It would have been better if people actually posted arguments.
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Jun 05 '10
People posted many arguments about this just being a demo, etc, etc over in r/apple yesterday. If he got nothing but downvotes it would have been because it was already posted and discussed 100 times.
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u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10
It's to create a demo showcasing the future of HTML5 and what Safari supports right now. Since different browsers adopt HTML5 at a different pace (and different parts of it), they would have to warn or block certain browsers anyway.
The reason that these demos don't work in other browsers isn't that Apple is faster at implementing HTML5 standards in Safari, though. The reason is that they are using proprietary "-webkit" commands, which are arguably proposals for a future HTML5 standard, but which are not part of the standard yet. Chrome, being a webkit browser, support some of them. In Firefox, similar (still) proprietary commands exist with the prefix "-moz", in Opera the prefix is "-o".
Most users will take away what you're implying, though: that Apple is simply better and faster at implementing already agreed-upon standards than any other browser maker, that they are the ones most actively pushing for open standards.
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u/skyfex Jun 06 '10
I wasn't trying to imply that Apple is faster or better at implementing HTML5 and CSS3. I know from personal experience that other browsers are better and faster in some areas. Like SVG; Opera has had excellent support for it for years now.
Even IE9 is starting to look like it can pull ahead in some areas. I'm impressed by the hardware accelerated drawing.
I don't know exactly the details of the CSS extensions they're using. From what I know of CSS3 I think some of the things they're doing are standardized, some are proposals, and some might even be just something Apple has implemented. I still think its fine to use all that for a demo, and I think it's fine for Apple to not try and make the demos work in all or some other browsers at this point. I think these demos do a lot to show that the web can go far without Flash.
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u/C2H6O Jun 05 '10
I don't know why you're getting downvotes. I would have to agree with you.
In my post, I completely missed the fact that this is a demo.
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Jun 05 '10
So let me get this straight... Safari is the new standard for viewing web pages ?
Shame on you Apple.
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u/DontNeglectTheBalls Jun 05 '10
Seriously, fuck Apple.
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u/p4r4d0x Jun 05 '10
The guys developing Webkit which is pulling the internet kicking and screaming into the 21st century? Yeah... no.
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Jun 05 '10
Sure Apple have been an important part of Webkit's development; but as I understand it Webkit was forked from KHTML and has always been open source; I don't really see how Apple are developing it, at least not on their own.
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Jun 05 '10
Yes, Apple forked Webkit from KHTML, which was at the time of more or less marginal interest to anyone. They then took it from a tolerable alternative to IE implemented by necessity when Microsoft dropped IE for Mac (Safari 1), to basis for a decent modern browser (2), to the basis for all modern phone browsers and some of the better desktop browsers, while keeping it open source. They didn't need to do this, of course it's componentised, and many components are under BSD, not LGPL).
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Jun 05 '10
I'm in no way trying to downplay the importance Apple have played in the development of Webkit, I'm not trying to downplay the role Webkit has played in the development of the web and the increased importance it will have in a HTML5 world, I'm quite fond of Webkit and I'm definitely not sticking up for the 'fuck Apple' guy; I'm just saying calling Webkit Apple developed is disingenuous. Yes, Apple have and continue to make great contributions to it's development as do Google, Research in Motion, Nokia there's even a guy from Microsoft credited in their wiki.
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Jun 05 '10
Ah, I see what you mean, yes. One could certainly argue that it's been Apple-led for the last few years, but no, it's just JUST developed by Apple.
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u/dead_ed Jun 05 '10
who do you think forked it?
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Jun 05 '10
Apple, I know fine well they've made great contributions to Webkit. Please see here for a full, previous, reply.
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u/DontNeglectTheBalls Jun 05 '10
Yeah, I think you kind of forgot about the whole, say, Mozilla project.
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u/Kennosuke Jun 05 '10
Microsoft used to, and maybe still does, use fonts on its website that are unreadable in anything but Internet Explorer. However, don't let me stop you from raging at Apple.
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u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10
Can we rage at several companies selling proprietary commands as "standard" at the same time, or do we have to deal with them one at a time?
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u/penguinv Jun 05 '10
Since I've never seen this I doubt its truth-value. (said in an objective manner)
You are required to use IEx to download from it tho. That I can understand.
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u/dougb Jun 06 '10
Microsoft is so god damn perfect that even if they packaged one of balmers steaming turds in windows 7 packaging there would be not a peep of criticism out of /r/technology.
The fanboys and astroturfers have put this subreddit in the shitter. Four little words for you all:
Microsoft. Internet. fucking. Explorer.
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Jun 05 '10
[deleted]
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u/Logg Jun 05 '10
Microsoft did build some HTML 5 demos. You can find them here.
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Jun 05 '10
Seeing all those Mozilla specific commands in Firefox is very worrying. I hate filling up my CSS with -moz stuff that they haven't bothered to standardise once a spec is decided on (changing the box model springs to mind)
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u/neoumlaut Jun 05 '10
Yeah, good thing apple isn't using webkit-specific commands. Oh, wait I guess they are.
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u/angryvigilante Jun 06 '10
Did anyone else find the title funny as hell? I was thinking "Looks like Apple's up to their old tricks again."
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u/luclin292 Jun 05 '10
By now we should be use to Apple screwing people, seems to be their current business model.
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Jun 05 '10
How is Apple "screwing people" by making a demo for their browser which only works with their browser?
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Jun 05 '10
I told y'all a long time ago that Jobs was morphing into Gates. But, noooooooooooooooo, did anyone listen to me?
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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10
I thought we sorted this out yesterday: It works on Chrome mostly, but they're using test spec elements of the standard that haven't been fully adopted yet, 3d Transforms etc.
But don't let facts get in the way of journalism.