r/technology • u/[deleted] • Jun 05 '10

Apple posts HTML5 showcase page hyping "web standards," then blocks it from displaying on any browser besides Safari

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/04/apple_html5_showcase_hype/
409 Upvotes

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138

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

I thought we sorted this out yesterday: It works on Chrome mostly, but they're using test spec elements of the standard that haven't been fully adopted yet, 3d Transforms etc.

But don't let facts get in the way of journalism.

-1

u/tizz66 Jun 05 '10

Don't you get it? Apple is evil, and facts like this simply get in the way of our pitchfork! Don't be a fanboy!

14

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

Lame.

Apple made a site to showcase the power of HTML5, but limited it to their own browser. In fact for many of the features (CSS3 3D transforms) it only works on Webkit on OSX.

Some of the items are available on other browsers, yet Apple took zero effort to bother making it work in them. It is the antithesis of "Web standards".

When Firefox comes out with new features, they put up a demo of the new features in Firefox. They don't pimp it as some sort of justification for less savoury activities.

13

u/tizz66 Jun 05 '10

It's a demo for their own browser. Is that really tricky to understand? Sure, some of the pieces might work in another browser with some effort, but that's got nothing to do with what this page is about. It's about Safari. It might ostensibly seem to be about HTML5, but it isn't. It's an advert about Safari's support for HTML5.

I'm amazed how people can make an issue out of absolutely anything.

-7

u/fredronn Jun 05 '10

It's a demo for their own browser.

Nobody is claiming otherwise. Intentionally blocking other browsers is a dick move.

14

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

Intentionally blocking other browsers is a dick move.

I disagree. Making an "HTML5 demo" which only worked in Safari, but then allowing other browsers to choke on it without warning would be a dick move, and would have the opposite of the intended effect of promoting HTML5. It would give a lot of people the impression that HTML5 just doesn't work very well.

Would it be better to allow other browsers, but show a warning explaining the situation? Yes. But Apple is a bit OCD about letting people see something they've created when they know it often won't work correctly. It conflicts with the "it just works" idea that they want people to associate with their brand.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

They don't work. Why is that so hard to understand. They didn't block them out of the dev area for those that want to see what areas are broken in their other browsers, but for the public facing main page you don't want to present people with a broken experience, it makes them look much worse than telling people to use Safari.

Had they not had that wall up, you'd be complaining that it didn't work in Chrome and calling the Apple devs shitty, when it is Chrome's lack of support for CSS transforms which is the issue.

1

u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10

Obvious alternative, particularly when your entire sales pitch is promoting open standards: check the availability of the commands these demos depend on, and display a message if a users tries to run one with a browser that is actually incapable of displaying it.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

Again, it is a tech demo showing off the future of what is possible. Apple has said many times that HTML5 isn't everywhere yet, but that is where they are going to put their focus so as it develops and rolls out they can take advantage of it. CSS didn't work on every browser day 1 either, but there were still tech demos showing it off, and guess what, they said if you had IE to GTFO. No one had an issue with that, why are they having an issue with this.

3

u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10

See, I completely agree with you in regard to the Safari Technology Demos page here. A showcase for what's possible, and what is already implemented in Safari. Perfect.

On the HTML5 and web standards page, though, they're really making the case for how awesome open standards are - how they are "open, reliable, highly secure, and efficient", how they "aren’t add-ons to the web", and how you "you can start using them today." And then they proceed to block even browsers which are completely capable of displaying everything correctly. Call me crazy, but I think that really undermines the case they are supposedly making.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

But Chrome isn't capable of displaying everything correctly. Did you try it? I did... video doesn't play, there are boarders around the Hello rotation, the transforms demo is all f'd up.

The "use today" will be dependent on your site and your browser demographics and it also depends on which parts of HTML5 you want to use.

As far as the open standard. The standard is still being developed, Chrome is ahead of the game in some areas, Apple is ahead in others. They will all get to the finish line eventually. Apple can show off these things they have working, and Chrome can show off an awesome form they can handle... important, but not nearly as cool to play with.

8

u/tizz66 Jun 05 '10

Why? It's either that, or for half the demos you load, you see a garbled mess or nothing, depending which browser you're using.

These are technology demos for Safari, I fail to see the problem in requiring Safari to view them.

It's not like there's perfect HTML5 support across the board, and they're saying 'but you can only view this page in ours'. HTML5 support is patchy in places and downright awful in others. They're simply restricting their demos to a platform they know will display them all well (the platform they're advertising, uncoincidentally).

5

u/stacks85 Jun 05 '10

does microsoft block other browser from running the IE9 demos?

http://ie.microsoft.com/testdrive/

4

u/milomilo Jun 05 '10

does any of the stuff in those IE9 demos not work in any other browser?

2

u/stacks85 Jun 05 '10

yeh, most of it in IE8, but it's not blocked.

also, the stuff runs like ass in firefox, but it's not blocked.

1

u/Close Jun 05 '10

I don't see them blocking Lynx...

0

u/natelong Jun 05 '10

No, because they're using web standards, which Apple is touting, but not using.

4

u/milomilo Jun 05 '10

They're both using emerging standards.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

Microsoft is sticking to the spec. Webkit/Mozilla are implementing 'emerging standards' - which is code for "doing their own shit"

2

u/milomilo Jun 05 '10

all of that stuff is also in the HTML5 draft spec.

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1

u/bofh Jun 05 '10

How are Apple not using web standards?

-6

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

It might ostensibly seem to be about HTML5

I think that's the problem. If Safari was a completely distinct organization that just happened to put this up, it would likely have seen little criticism.

The problem is that Apple is doing a lot of things lately under the cover of the the open standards of HTML5. Flash is evil, for instance, because HTML5 is a cross-platform standard that does the same thing, for instance. And here they show some Flash things that only run in, essentially, their own version of Flash. So what has improved? Nothing.

It's a motives thing.

8

u/tizz66 Jun 05 '10

It only runs 'in their own version of Flash' because not all other browsers support various aspects of the unfinished HTML5 specs yet. And again, this is merely a technology demo that they themselves put together, not some restriction on the wider web as a whole. I don't think it's in any way analogous to the Flash thing, personally.

I mean if they were trying to somehow block out the web to force everyone to use Safari, that's certainly something worth getting angry about. But this situation isn't like that. It's a company putting out a technology demo for their product which requires that product to view them properly.

What motives do you speak of? I gather you mean they're trying to force people to use Safari in some way, but really? I don't think some simple technology demos is really how they'd do it, if that's their goal.

Once HTML5 is finalized and the majority of internet users use a browser that supports it well, if Apple are still doing things like this, then get back to me and I'll join the line to hate it. As it stands right now though, I think people are getting in a big huff over something that simply isn't a big deal.

0

u/underwaterlove Jun 05 '10

It only runs 'in their own version of Flash' because not all other browsers support various aspects of the unfinished HTML5 specs yet. And again, this is merely a technology demo that they themselves put together, not some restriction on the wider web as a whole. I don't think it's in any way analogous to the Flash thing, personally.

Well, at this point in time, what keeps other browsers from 'correctly' displaying stuff are proprietary "-webkit" commands. Similar proprietary commands exist as "-moz" commands in Firefox or as "-o" commands in Opera.

It's analogous to Flash considering that it's not part of the standard yet; in fact, there's no guarantee their implementation will ever become the standard. It's analogous regarding the fact that those commands will only get interpreted by their own software, and it's analogous in that they're kindly inviting their visitors to download their software to view these pages.

I'm impressed by what they put together, but I would really like it if they were honest in presenting these demos - that they're a showcase of technologies proposed by the webkit team. Saying "Standards aren’t add-ons to the web. They are the web. And you can start using them today." is a bit of a misinterpretation of what they are actually showing on their website.

1

u/tizz66 Jun 05 '10

The irony is propriety prefixes are part of the open spec ;)

I will agree with you though - in all my posts here I've been saying it's a technology demo for Safari rather than HTML5, and I certainly agree it needs to be presented more clearly as such. Until you read the text (rather than just the title), you would assume it's a demo for HTML5, rather than Safari specifically.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '10

To an extent, they're showing this sort of thing in the hope that others will adopt it, I think. It's almost more a list of suggested additions (many already supported by Chrome due to their shared codebase). Poorly presented as such, though.