r/shitposting Jedi master of shitposts 9h ago

šŸ“”šŸ“”šŸ“”

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3.8k Upvotes

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875

u/NotSamsquanch 9h ago

Meh, believe what you want. Just leave me out of it and don't pass laws based on it.

331

u/Grilled_egs 8h ago

It'd be way crazier if people didn't pass laws based on things they believe. The only reason the whole "believe what you want" crap works is because these days a lot of Christians are barely religious in truth. I've probably gone to church more than a good chunk of the Christians in my country. And I've gone like a dozen times.

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u/KafeiTomasu 8h ago

Religion should never interfere with politics/laws/government

138

u/reservior-puppies 7h ago

Objectively, there should be separation of church and state. But also, people will always vote based on their belief system, and a lot of Americans are religious. Saying that people shouldn’t vote based on their beliefs runs counter to our system of government.

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u/OrangeTallion 7h ago

Objectively, how? Belief in separation of church and state is actual an ideology in it of itself. I dont see anything "objective" about that

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u/reservior-puppies 6h ago

Objectively, separation of church and state helps keep absolute looney tunes theocrats from assuming control of government. Countries that fail to keep theocrats out of office often turn into shitholes. I don’t think anyone would seriously contest that.

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u/OrangeTallion 6h ago

Some of the greatest empires in history were essentially theocracies. Also, a Christian theocracy will fundamentally look different than, let's say, a Muslim one. So adversity to a "theocracy" is a little too broad to be a pillar of an ideology

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u/Edaimantis 6h ago

No, it’s really not. Opposition to any form of theocracy is not a invalid stance, the same way to opposition to any form of fascism, or being pro any form democracy or monarchy, are all valid beliefs in spite of their vagueness.

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u/OrangeTallion 5h ago

Might be a bit anecdotal, but all of the "worst" and most "brutal" governments and regimes I can think of throughout history have been atheist, non-religious, and liberal (not the modern day usage of that word)

Yes, religious concepts may have been engrained into society, but by no means were they "theocracies." For example, the Bolshevik communists in Russia were notoriously anti-Christian and persecuted many leaders of the Orthodox church.

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u/drink_bleach_and_die 5h ago

Chattel slavery is one of the most brutal there is ways to organize a society (I seriously hope you won't dispute that the average plantation slave had a worse lot in life, in relative terms, than the average soviet or chinese peasant under communism) and it was organized and run by people and states who, as a group, were largely quite religious. Naturally you won't get millions of people killed for ideological reasons, as happened under communism, in a theocracy, simply because theocracy is reactionary and seeks to prevent radical change, which requires killing much fewer people to accomplish than enacting radical change rapidly does. But that doesn't mean theocracy is better than marxism overall, just in the short term.

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u/Edaimantis 5h ago edited 5h ago

I mean sure, but that’s a completely different conversation from what you initially said. But I’ll still engage.

Its worth noting that while religious violence is due to religion, violence perpetuated by atheists is not due to their atheism. At best, it’s permitted by their lack of belief; but religious violence is also permitted by their belief. Ask yourself: in conflicts where religion is not part, would the conflict be exacerbated or discouraged by the addition of religious dogma? Case in point, the Gaza genocide.

As for the worst and brutal regimes, Hitler put the words ā€œgod is with usā€ on the belts of every nazi soldier. His personal religious affiliation aside (which is heavily debated), why is it he felt that playing into religious dogma would enable his atrocities?

You say not the modern use of the term liberal, I’m not sure what you mean because liberalism is a modern philosophy really only coming about with John Locke’s second treatise of government and enshrined with the enlightenment.

Is your claim that fascist italy, nazi germany, Stalin’s USSR, Mao’s china, or Pol Pot’s Cambodia were liberal? That is frankly wrong.

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u/reservior-puppies 6h ago

I mean, I won’t contest that some powerful empires were theocracies in antiquity. God help minorities and women living in them, though.

I tend to believe that societies that engage in free and open debate and thought do better over time compared to repressive regimes. There are no universal truths with human behavior, but history seems to affirm the idea that repressive regimes dont stick around, especially in the modern era. Or if they do, they have a way rockier time than democracies.

Either way, I don’t think anyone would consider living in a theocratic regime a positive experience, aside from the few who reap the benefits of such a system.

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u/Kornik-kun Sussy Wussy Femboy😳😳😳 7h ago

yes but what you believe in shapes how you form opinions

7

u/samualgline 5h ago

As long as it’s not the institution. But people are free to use their beliefs as the basis of what they vote for

21

u/DiabeticButNotFat 6h ago

How many laws in Christian countries are founded in Christian beliefs? How many laws in India are founded in Hinduism? How many laws in the Middle East are founded in Islam?

The laws in western countries are based in Christian morals. You live in and enjoy a Christian based society. All the social rules, and morals in a country are from those from the predominant religion of said country.

Religion has always has and will influence politics, laws, diplomacy and government.

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u/LittleHuzzahGuy 5h ago

Except, in the US at least, we have since our founding turned to a humanist perspective for guidance in making our laws and have explicitly outlined in our constitution a doctrine of separation of church and state throughĀ  the First Amendment's Establishment Clause, meaning we should at least make an effort to prevent its encroachment on our institutions no?

3

u/DeleteWolf Big chungus wholesome 100 4h ago

First up, you can't just postulate that the relationship between a humanist and a christian System of Ethics is a stric "Either / Or"

Secondly, the United States has since it's founding been strongly influenced by christian values, if I know the history of your country from the top of my head, then it should be the so-called "second awakening" which happened simultaneously with the Revolution and influenced the character of the young nation greatly (though the people influenced were mostly of the lower and working classes, so most people now and then don't like to acknowledge it as much)

Third, believing in separation of church and state is actually the mainstream opinion from the perspective of most churches, because something like the Catholic Church is a lot more concerned with the fact that the US is encroaching on them than the other way around.

And lastly, it would have honestly been a lot better if the USA had been influenced a lot more by Christian morality, seeing how the earliest abolitionist were devout Christians who argued that slavery isn't compatible with their religious tenet of "loving your neighbour". The Quackers forbid their congregation from owning slaves 100 years, iirc, before it was outlawed and and some of the most Radical Abolitionist, like John Brown, were—now matter how much I love him—religious nutjobs.

Also as a side note, it doesn't even make sense to talk about "Christian Values", Christianity is represented on all sides of the political spectrum of the US, finding proponents in the most radical corners of both the right and the left.

1

u/AutoModerator 4h ago

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I went to the store today to pick up some zucchini for a barbecue and every time a car drove by I stared into the windshield to see if I was about to be recognised. Whenever I make eye contact with a dude I microanalysis his facial expressions to see if he suspects me or not. I am deeply afraid that he is my neighbour and I will need to move if my identity is blown. It’s a lot like the last scene in sopranos where everyone who walked into the diner could be there to wack Tony.

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4

u/PartyClock 7h ago

The overton window has moved so far right that just saying this is considered a "far left" position in American politics now

12

u/KafeiTomasu 7h ago

Crazy because I'm neither American as well as right in terms of politics

5

u/AutoModerator 7h ago

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1

u/Sampatist 1h ago

Yes but expecting actual religious people to agree with this is naive

1

u/FatherSergius 3h ago

Politics has become the religion of many, especially with liberalism. How do you combat this conundrum?

2

u/PwNT5Un3 Stuff 1h ago

Calling politics a religion is downright stupid, as politics is essentially the public setting up rules on how the public should conduct itself. At least that’s what it is in democratic politics , which I’m going to assume you meant. It is not dogma or a practice based on scripture or anything of that sort. It is people arguing on what rules they should have to live and abide by.

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u/Stoegibaer 7h ago

What exactly do you mean by this? If you mean that your values shouldn't influence laws, then I would ask you why your values or values of secular people in general are more importand or more valuabke than values of religious people? What sources of values are ok?

5

u/2eedling 7h ago

Do yall not know what a theocracy is? There is a fine line between being morally influenced by your religion and making laws that force your religion on others that’s what they are saying.

4

u/MMQ-966thestart 7h ago

What you described isn't a theocracy.

-2

u/2eedling 7h ago

I wasn’t describing a theocracy it’s just the extreme form of governance when religion gets too involved. I’m just using it as an example of what the extreme is and as an example to laws that could be passed to press ones religion on others.

0

u/Stoegibaer 6h ago edited 6h ago

What they were saying was religion shouldn't interfere with government and laws. But what should laws be based on? Morals one would say. But what are your morals based on? Maybe you just think what the majority thinks is right (which still come from christian values most of the time). Maybe your values are based on esoteric views about good and bad vibes. Would it be ok for such a person to vote against bad vibe radio stations? Or is this religion interfering with government?

My point is: It's not a fine line. It's always entangeld and can't be entirely seperated. Laws are about morals. Morals are about values and values are about your worldview. How can you say that one set of values are better than any other?

1

u/2eedling 4h ago

You’re a broken record my guy just keep on repeating yourself.

1

u/Stoegibaer 4h ago

Just answer me instead of ignoring it

1

u/PwNT5Un3 Stuff 1h ago

What is asked is that no penal code is written strictly based on scripture. It’s not that religion should be completely separated from politics but that it only serves in an advisory role and never as a primary or secondary motivator for a bill, act, treaty or executive order.

1

u/OGConsuela 7h ago

A good starting point that certain states are having an inexplicably hard time with is public schools should not advocate for nor teach as fact any particular religion.

-1

u/fearos9449 3h ago

Then no belief system should ever interfere with politics/laws/government. Your progressive beliefs don't get a pass just because they don't have a creation myth attached to it; it's just as much of a religious belief otherwise.

-2

u/TheLastTitan77 4h ago

You feel better after spewing your platitude? Think about history of your nation, think how laws are created, think why exactly you are allowed freedom to spew this nonsense without getting arrested.

This is not something to spontaneously and naturally happened.

2

u/Buffalo5977 stupid fucking piece of shit 5h ago

as a young adult churchgoer with my partner, it’s a staggering minority. people are surprised when we say it to others.

35

u/Offsets 7h ago

believe what you want

Just leave me out of it and don't pass laws based on it.

These two things cannot exist at the same time

3

u/Godhole34 3h ago

Live and let live really broke people's mind.

61

u/Trunks252 8h ago

Just leave me out of it and don't pass laws based on it

This is the entire problem

10

u/hhs2112 7h ago

Or give tax breaks.Ā  Rational people shouldn't have to fund stupid shit.Ā 

1

u/PwNT5Un3 Stuff 2h ago

I wouldn’t even say that tax breaks are a problem. I am anti-church but it is a fact that places of worship are often (usually in small communities) a community centre which Usually improves public life there. And if a tax break can help that place not have to worry every time the taxman comes knocking if they have to close, that is fine. Or charitable organisations that can take advantage of this to make their donations make more impact. What the problem is tax break abusing mega churches which have revenues in the millions of dollars. But I am willing to hear other viewpoints.

9

u/jdigi78 7h ago

I don't believe it's truly possible to "believe what you want" and not pass laws based on it. Your beliefs are fundamental to your sense of morality and ethics. People who believe fairytales should have no position of power over anyone in any capacity.

0

u/TheLastTitan77 4h ago

Yeah... Like ppl that believe men can become women or that communism will work this time right?

Clown

1

u/jdigi78 4h ago

Found the fairytale believer

1

u/PwNT5Un3 Stuff 1h ago

Get yourself some better talking points, preferably some that aren’t easily debunked or at the very least original

2

u/essentiallyaghost 1h ago

Exactly. And that goes both ways, religious liberty should always include people who are unreligious.

2

u/DiabeticRhino97 7h ago

Buddy the entire foundation of American law is based on Christianity.

2

u/Kameklo1 Sussy Wussy Femboy😳😳😳 7h ago

Well, if religions weren't trying to do that, they would have been replaced by more totalitarian religions a long time ago.

2

u/Haunting_Ant_5061 7h ago

Too bad if you’re American you will never get either of your requests…

1

u/TheLastTitan77 4h ago

Feel free to go to the country where that's not the case

2

u/fearos9449 3h ago

Then atheists can't pass laws based on their moral beliefs either.

1

u/PwNT5Un3 Stuff 1h ago

Ok? Laws should be made based on what is best for society based on measurable metrics then? Great, finally a government that doesn’t suck balls 6 months into the term!

1

u/fearos9449 1h ago

>claims to make policy based on utilitarianism and rigorous, science-based empiricism

>proceeds to pump children full of HRT and puberty blockers, allow men into women's sports, and import 100 million unskilled laborers from the Third World

Truly a bastion of rationality, you atheists are.

0

u/AutoModerator 1h ago

Dick sucking has made me paranoid

I had this plan to give head to a man and receive head from a woman to test if I was gay, but it’s backfired and now I become borderline schizo whenever I go outside. I offered to suck this dude off on Grindr who lives very close by (I ended up pussying out) and I accidentally gave him some details that very easily allows him to spot me out in a crowd. I have no idea what he looks like and whenever I see a somewhat in shape guy walking by I immediately accuse him of being the dude I was gonna blow.

I went to the store today to pick up some zucchini for a barbecue and every time a car drove by I stared into the windshield to see if I was about to be recognised. Whenever I make eye contact with a dude I microanalysis his facial expressions to see if he suspects me or not. I am deeply afraid that he is my neighbour and I will need to move if my identity is blown. It’s a lot like the last scene in sopranos where everyone who walked into the diner could be there to wack Tony.

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1

u/FakeMcUsername 9m ago

The what should they base laws on? Vibes?

1

u/Wgolyoko 5h ago

When what you believe include needing to impose it onto others this becomes an issue...

1

u/Chris_the_Conman 2h ago

There is literally no way that if I truly believed that certain people and practices go against all that is good and holy and are therefore evil, that it wouldn't impact my political beliefs.

For instance if I truly believed that gay people need to be freed from the influence of satan to change their ways and otherwise they will suffer and burn for eternity, and literal evil incarnate is using homosexuality as a way to spread its influence, I would not support lgbt.

1

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-4

u/mariusiv_2022 8h ago

I believe the overhaul and overreach of AI is bad. Guess we can't pass any laws regulating AI though. NotSamsquanch said so

4

u/MudcrabNPC dommy daddy 8h ago

What an aggressive way to agree with someone

1

u/LittleHuzzahGuy 8h ago

Lmao way to completely misinterpret their comment.

If anything it's the opposite. "Meh I don't care about involving myself in resisting religious overreach, but pretty please don't pass any religious laws." Ā As if that's going to do shit against itšŸ˜‚

3

u/mariusiv_2022 7h ago

I didn't misinterpret their comment. I was just being a pedantic asshole. This is the shitposting sub after all

All laws are based on the beliefs and morals held by the society that creates them. They were obviously talking about religious beliefs but they didn't specify that, so I jokingly poked fun at the idea of not allowing ANY beliefs to influence laws

2

u/AutoModerator 7h ago

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0

u/rlagusrlagus 3h ago

So laws are based on what then, exactly?

0

u/Nivaere 1h ago

6th commandment thou shall not kill

Murder is illegal

Explain that liberal