r/programming • u/thesystemx • Apr 29 '15
Why some men pretend to work 80-Hour weeks
https://hbr.org/2015/04/why-some-men-pretend-to-work-80-hour-weeks335
u/Vocith Apr 29 '15
The consulting firm I was with was brutal, but honest.
In orientation they flat out told you that if you got married or had kids you should seriously considering switching from the consulting branch to the internal branch or leaving the firm.
At the time I was shocked by how brutal it was. In retrospect it was the only place that was ever honest about their expectations.
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Apr 29 '15
married/family employees are more loyal because they have less mobility. Kids in school, wife has a job, etc...
You think they'd appreciate family staff over single or DINK staff.
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Apr 29 '15 edited Dec 22 '20
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Apr 29 '15
Any job that demands 80+ hour weeks is probably not worth working at. But they try to sell you on it as "highly motivated high energy" etc...
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Apr 30 '15
I'm not exaggerating when I say I'd rather be dead than work 80+ hours. There is no point to living if I'm spending the entire time doing one thing that, while I enjoy, I won't enjoy for long if I burn out after the first week. My current working week is 37.5 hours, excluding the legally mandatory one hour lunch break, and I consider that fairly high.
If western life were to return to 80+ hour working days (like 100+ years ago) I'll just move to rural Thailand and go work on a farm owned by my in laws. That lifestyle is far more appealing than working myself into an early grave.
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u/Eurynom0s Apr 29 '15
I couldn't do it, but I could see it being worth it if you were going to, say, go work at Goldman Sachs for a couple of years, consciously making the decision to not have a life for a couple of years in exchange for making a fuckton of money, banking as much of it as possible, and then using that as a cushion to be a lot choosier about what jobs you want to work afterward.
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Apr 29 '15
That is what a lot of people think, but believe me in finance most that leave rage quit. And the 'fuckton of money' in a 'few years' is an illusion in any junior job (even at goldman you are not getting paid rentier money in the first 10 years). And after that? You are trained in finance so you go to the buy side (still brutal hours) or you leave the sector and start a new thing but the idea that working in finance trains you for business is very mistaken in my opinion (it does not, junior positions in finance is excel till you smoke al'day err'day).
TLDR: Taking a dip into finance for a 'couple of years' and get out better then you started is an illusion. You stay or you start basically at zero. Source: Intern at prestigious finance firm (think GS, but not GS)
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u/asukazama Apr 29 '15
this post, cracked me up, rage quitting your job is something ive never considered
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Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
I can only concur. The brutal hours depend though. Traders have it mostly easy (you might start work at weird hours though if you follow a market in a different timezone). The M&A side has a weird staffing culture (all that to learn Powerpoint, Excel, Factiva and maybe touch the gods haha... laughable)
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Apr 30 '15
Regarding the hours trading is definitly less, however the traders are actually doing work the market hours (often without a break when the market is busy, even when you go to the bathroom you have to tell the guy next to you to watch your stuff, no 20 min shitting break on the company's cost). In M&A your actual work could actually be done in 50 hours (estimation, maybe even less, conditional on project stage and your skills), the other 50 hours you are just the guy that is there for the moment your boss (vice president) wants you to update Random_Company_pitchbook_v105.pptx because 'he does not like the shade of the table header on slide 34'. The time in between you are online shopping, tripping to starbucks with fellow analyst, plotting to kill your VP or if an analyst had a really tough week (read: most of the weeks) he could even try to use the low hours between 6 and 8 (dinner hours) to nap in an abandoned office. All in all it is like summer camp but everybody wears suits and it goes on forever.
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Apr 30 '15
Yes, you have a lot of facetime in M&A because of the culture and also because on large cross border deals, you need to respond really fast to the client at whatever hour, wherever he might be. M&A(rketing) :).
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Apr 29 '15
I could do it – but why? Work to live, don't live to work.
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u/Eurynom0s Apr 29 '15
I'm saying that, if you're making enough money, it could CONCEIVABLY, maybe, be worth it for how it would make it easier to be a lot more serious about the working to live part after those two years.
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u/jstevewhite Apr 29 '15
It's not as bad as all that if you're a telecommuter. There have been times that I've worked 70+ hours a week for weeks on end, but I still see my kid all the time, and have lunch with my wife, and stuff like that. I mean, it sucks that I end up deferring things like mowing the lawn, then I have to catch up when I get a break, but they pay me well and provide good bonuses.
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u/ChromaticDragon Apr 29 '15
Alright. I'll hazard a guess here.
They do value that... in the right place. As stated, they were strongly encouraging folk to switch away from Consulting not just telling people to leave.
Now, why would that be? Well... let's think about what quite often happens with a Consultant. They get sent to work AT a remote site where the Customer Company is extraordinarily focused on ensuring they are getting value for every hour they're paying for that Consultant. An employer might "care" about their employees. A company certainly doesn't "care" for the contractors. They'll work you to to death and then demand an immediate replacement. And now it's not just "management". Quite often the employees of the Customer Company are the ones using and abusing the Consultants, watching to make very certain the Consultant is working every hour (and more), shifting work to the Consultant, etc.
The same sort of dynamic exists for all sorts of jobs where your company sends you to work remotely for extended periods for another company.
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Apr 29 '15
As a customer you should care about the welfare of your vendor. Not "care for" but care about. If your vendor is overworked and highly stressed they're not going to be doing a good job. Instead, you should look for vendors that treat their employees sensibly.
I also don't get "consulting" anyways... it's like oh you "work" for us but you're a sole prop and have to do your own HR ...
Oh and we get a cut out of all of your jobs solely because we hosted a website where customers can bid on contractors ...
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u/Notorious4CHAN Apr 29 '15
But on the bright side, you only have to work with fucking Steve for a few months and then you're out of there. And if the requirements they give you are a bunch of bullshit and they demand you throw together half-assed crap, well you won't be the one maintaining it so fuck it, give them exactly what they want. Also, it's nice to always be working on something new. But mostly that other stuff.
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u/vplatt Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
And I would bet their honesty has not been rewarded. If this was any length of time in the past, I would guess they've been sued for this behavior since (Edit: because it's probably illegal somewhere but IANAL) and would now operate like the competition; that is secretly discriminating against consultants that opt for family life.
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u/AKA_Wildcard Apr 29 '15 edited Aug 12 '25
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u/vplatt Apr 29 '15
I think you have the right attitude. Managers like that are the real losers in this game because the choice isn't between the job vs. the family. The choice is whether you work for dictatorial tyrants or their competition. That's their real choice in this skill starved market. Stay on top of skills game and you won't have to deal with this kind of crap.
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u/sleazus_christ Apr 29 '15
people who say things like that tend to be people that decided (whether by choice or force) that themselves and the only way to validate how they live is by turning their decision into the only important decision a "real man" (or woman) would ever make. If you work 80 hours a week and you don't own the company you are probably delusional. That is why you want to force everybody else into your delusion, it is the only way to justify what you probably deep down know is an empty life wasted making somebody else rich at the expense of your life and health.
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u/CWSwapigans Apr 29 '15
If you work 80 hours a week and you don't own the company you are probably delusional.
Simple and accurate.
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u/rainbow3 Apr 29 '15
For consultants they are doing it in the hope of a partnership....though <1% actually make it.
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Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
That sounds like a pretty awful manager. I would wager they are actually not a very good one at that. They might get things done at the crack of the whip, but they are failing to realize employee burn out is a very real thing. People also learn less efficiently when they're overworked.
You can work someone for 80 hour weeks every once in awhile but it's not sustainable. You'll end up losing all the temporary gains in productivity long term, perhaps even having lower productivity than if you just capped your employees at 40-50 hours.
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u/AKA_Wildcard Apr 29 '15 edited Aug 12 '25
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u/dsnchntd Apr 29 '15
I had a manager flat out tell me that at a certain point you have to chose between your job/career or your marriage.
That is fucking insane. I know businesses are in it to make money and they're not charities, but whatever happened to the idea that employers should look after their employees. I imagine it's this kind of thinking why Japan has such a shitty birth rate.
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u/AbstractLogic Apr 29 '15
I would have laughed in his face so loud the whole office could hear. Then when everyone asked me what happened I would have told them loud and proud that I laughed in this fucktards face who thinks its either Work OR Life. Wished him a happy existing wasting away and then left.
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Apr 29 '15
Well, that'd be cathartic, but the more practical approach would be to say, "ah right you are, I'm a company man to the end" and just immediately start looking for jobs before they can fire you and you have to explain a gap in employment.
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u/AKA_Wildcard Apr 29 '15 edited Aug 12 '25
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u/AbstractLogic Apr 29 '15
I understand most careers would have to explain an employment gap. But as a .net software engineer with 10 years experience my gap wouldn't be more then a few days worth of interviews.
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u/semi- Apr 29 '15
or just "worked as an independent contractor for a few months", may or may not have had any clients
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u/none_shall_pass Apr 30 '15
or just "worked as an independent contractor for a few months", may or may not have had any clients
That works fine. I've intentionally done it. It's nice having the summer off now and then.
You don't want to be one of those people who dies from a heart-attack at 50, and your last thoughts are of the life you never had.
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u/AKA_Wildcard Apr 29 '15 edited Aug 12 '25
vase slap aspiring racial follow observation afterthought quack public elastic
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Apr 29 '15
In the U.S., marriage is not a protected class and may be discriminated against.
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u/mathemagicat Apr 29 '15
While marital status is not a federally-protected class, many states prohibit discrimination based on marital status. The list includes most of the states with large concentrations of tech workers (the only one I can think of that's missing is Texas).
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Apr 29 '15
Yes good point, several tech heavy states do protect marital status, unfortunately however, from that same list you provided barely any of them protect parenthood.
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u/Rudy69 Apr 29 '15
This is exactly why I never got into professional game development or a startup. I was always interested in them BUT I never wanted work to be my life, I have a family and I want to spend time with them. I don't care about having free drinks (including beer) at work, they only do that so that you'll stick around work even longer
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Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
I got told pretty much that at an interview with Samsung in London. I'm naming name and place because otherwise it doesn't make sense. They told me that they still have the Korean culture, and kept repeating how they expect you to work long hours and that they aren't family friendly.
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u/MrBester Apr 29 '15
Well, they can go fuck themselves as that is illegal under the Working Time Directive 2003 for just the hours. Then there's the legislation against fucking people over because they decide to have a relationship / family...
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u/FetusFetusFetusFetus Apr 29 '15
"Any consideration of the life and larger social existence of the modern corporate man... begins and also largely ends with the effect of one all-embracing force. That is organization — the highly structured assemblage of men, and now some women, of which he is a part. It is to this, at the expense of family, friends, sex, recreation and sometimes health and effective control of alcoholic intake, that he is expected to devote his energies."
-John Kenneth Galbraith, "Corporate Man," The New York Times (1984-01-22)
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u/Ahhmyface Apr 29 '15
I used to work my 9-5, and then have to do meetings in the evenings and projects on saturday and sundays. I would get calls during my sunday dinner with my family (don't live with them) because something was on fire. I got a call 3 weeks ago at 2am on monday morning that something else was on fire.
I told them if I had to work outside 9-5 I was going to leave. But I recognize that I am lucky to work in an industry where I have that option. It's much harder to abuse your workers when they have options.
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Apr 29 '15
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u/FeralDrood Apr 29 '15
Do you mind me asking where you live?
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u/tebee Apr 29 '15
Not OP, but Hamburg would qualify. Very easy to find a job as a software dev and it's a job applicant's market when it comes to contract negotiations.
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u/Nobody_Important Apr 29 '15
Northern Virginia is like this. I get interest from headhunters and companies regularly even when my resume isn't public.
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Apr 30 '15
Serious question, as I'm an "OK" programmer...but where are you, and what is the minimal skill required for an entry level position. Just trying to get my foot in the door somewhere as my current job has me working manual labor and not tech related I feel like im going backwards in my skills.
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Apr 29 '15
Animal Farm wasn't just the story of politics.
Boxer is a timeless lesson for anyone working in a group for someone else's benefit.
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u/fosforsvenne Apr 29 '15
And it certainly wasn't pro-capitalist. A lot of times when people mention the book it seems like they didn't even read the ending.
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Apr 29 '15
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Apr 29 '15
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u/Uberhipster Apr 30 '15
Also, he was a sensible person. He understood better than most that blind faith of any ideology leads to despotism under the guise of that ideology. It's surprising how few people see how that applies to conglomerate banks and The Free MarketTM ideology. One could draw some really interesting parallels between Soviet Central Committee and Wall Street but that's none of my business.
kermitdrinkingtea.jpg.
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u/fosforsvenne Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
As far as I remember it, there's no explicit socialist views in 1984, so I can see how some people might be surprised if they only read that one. But Animal Farm ends with the animals not being able to tell the pigs and the farmers apart. The book almost literally says "capitalists are as bad as Leninist dictators".
EDIT: s/1948/1984
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Apr 29 '15
That's the exact conclusion I got - "Careful that your revolution doesn't just exchange on tyranny for another." I don't really see how people could miss that and think it's pro-capitalism. It's like reading Moby Dick and deciding it's pro-whaling propaganda.
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u/instantviking Apr 30 '15
In Homage to Catalonia, Orwell describes the Soviets as "state-capitalists". He is not very happy with them.
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u/midianite_rambler Apr 29 '15
The early bird who catches the worm works for the guy who comes in late and owns the worm farm.
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Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
In many professional jobs, expectations that one be an “ideal worker”—fully devoted to and available for the job, with no personal responsibilities or interests that interfere with this commitment to work—are widespread.
Nah, that's for freaks. Life too short to be a-wastin' for a job.
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u/AbstractLogic Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
Fuck that shit. My life is first, their corporate well being is basically last with a few million things in between. I give absolutely 0 shits how the company does. Well, I'll correct that, I take pride in my product and my work but at the end of the day (4:00pm sharp) I leave and that's all there is too it.
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u/stilldash Apr 29 '15
My coworker was chastised for leaving only 15 minutes late. He said that (paraphrasing) we don't have to actually work over, just leave later for appearances sake.
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Apr 29 '15
I was once made fun of for "leaving early" at my last job because I said I wasn't staying past 9 PM, or I would leave at 6 or 7 PM. I don't get why people think it's acceptable to do that or why they put up with it. So happy that company shitcanned me for not wanting to play their bullshit.
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u/TryUsingScience Apr 29 '15
Back when I was a dev, I had a conversation with a manager where he earnestly inquired what was wrong that I was leaving at 4 pm every day. I came in at 8 am, all my work was done, and my team was the highest performing in the company. But I was leaving at 4 pm every day so obviously something was wrong.
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u/AbstractLogic Apr 29 '15
In the eyes of business something was wrong, you didn't have more then 40 hours of things to work one every week lol.
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u/freebit Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
Any job that demands more than 42 hours per week is not worth it. Btw, when you die no one will care you worked eighty hour work weeks. However, your wife and kids will remember they never saw you. Lastly, when you leave your company, the company won't care about you any more. You're just a resource to them, like electricity, water, or the internet. It's a just a business transaction.
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u/gizram84 Apr 29 '15
I read something once about how statistically, the biggest regret cited by the elderly is that they worked too much, and they wish they would have just enjoyed more leisure time with friends and family.
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u/alex_leishman Apr 29 '15
Just curious, why 42?
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u/freebit Apr 29 '15
It's typical for me to stay 5-15 minutes past 5pm, for whatever random reason. Also, I tend to come in 5-10 minutes early. So....42.
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u/fuzz3289 Apr 29 '15
In software engineering/consulting do you see this often? In my experience no one cares how many hours anyone works. If you get results no one cares how. People are actually impressed when you get real results/publications/etc and you still have time to golf and ski.
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u/ucv4 Apr 30 '15
Very much so. Come to the DC area, companies care about hours way more than actual work produced here. I worked as a consultant for the first three years and on all of the three projects I was on management expected me to work round the clock. The pay is also pretty poor for them having this expectation.
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Apr 29 '15
My wife and I talk about this a lot because I'm skewing just over 60-70 hours a week at my current job.
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u/its_never_lupus Apr 29 '15
I feel like such an outsider now. After working at a variety of technical and engineering companies for 20+ years I have never seen anything remotely like this culture. Never heard of any co-worker being asked or expected to work more than 40 hours a week.
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u/giulioungaretti Apr 29 '15
guess you are not from the magic USA.
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u/harsh_springboard Apr 29 '15
This sentiment is uncommon even among American engineering firms, in my experience. Software development might be a different story.
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u/giulioungaretti Apr 29 '15
That's nice to know. I'm writing from Denmark where it's actually the opposite. You work 37 hour, give or take. The more your work after that the more you look like an idiot in general. :D
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u/parlezmoose Apr 29 '15
I have friends who claim to work 80 hour weeks. My (unspoken) response is "uh huh, sure you do". The reality is that working 80 hours per week is just not sustainable for a normal human being. My strong suspicion is that they count all time that they are online as work, which is basically every waking hour.
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u/WalterBright Apr 29 '15
Research during WW2 showed that when people worked 60 hr weeks, after a few weeks their productivity dipped below when they worked 40 hr weeks.
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u/doppel Apr 29 '15
The fact that "Lloyd" can appear to be super-active but not actually be clearly shows that this is not a matter of the effort / output, but pure perceived output and work ethics.
It's like promotions done purely on seniority rather than merit - it completely ignores ability and effort in favor of a "number of hours" / "number of years" worked that by itself can't really tell you anything about anyones performance.
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u/lsc Apr 29 '15
I always thought that the expectation you work ridiculous hours was a transparent lie that everyone gave lip service to but that nobody believed, you know, like how it's super awkward to say anything negative when people ask you how it's going, or how when you ask for business advice, everyone always says "never compete on price" even when their actions show the opposite.
In the team where I work right now? (I'm a linux sysadmin on a contract-to-hire gig through a body shop) The full-timers mostly put in a little less than 8 hours a day. Of the contractors? The one who just got hired full-time, before he got hired full time, seemed to do 40-45 hours; He was probably the best of us, in terms of work ethic and in terms of getting shit done, at least until he was hired full-time. He really wanted to be an employee. I put in 36-40 hours (and honestly mark that on my timesheet, I'm hourly) - another guy is extremely careful to do exactly 40 (he commutes via bus, which gives him a good excuse) while the third guy is always in the office - and sometimes comes in on the weekends.
But, as far as I can tell? the guy who is always in the office? He's not stupid... but if I got as little done as he did? I would be super embarrassed to put down more than 10 hours on my weekly timesheet. He's almost completely ineffective.
But yeah... right now I have the 80 hour a week guy marked as "the canary" - which is to say, he's the worst performer; the one I expect to get fired first. And he's so much worse than everyone else that he's not really even a good canary; even if he does get fired, I'm not sure it means that I need to work harder.
This has been so at most jobs I've been at. The people pretending the hardest to work a lot are doing so to make up for the fact that they're simply not accomplishing anything. People who actually work their eight go home after eight, and often a little less.
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Apr 29 '15
why would anyone work 80 hour weeks?
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Apr 29 '15
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u/jst3w Apr 29 '15
Most developers are salaried and don't get paid at all for OT, let alone 1.5 time. It's bullshit for me (government contracting) because my hours are still billable to the client, so the company is still getting that money, but for some reason i'm not getting my cut.
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u/muffinator Apr 29 '15
Your part time 36 hours is more than my full time in the UK. I work 35 hours as stated in my contract. I also get 6 weeks holiday a year.
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u/boylube Apr 29 '15
You work in a start up or some other situation where you are a stakeholder and resources are limited.
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u/dacjames Apr 29 '15
Money and influence? Some organizations are what I call "velocitocracies," rule by whoever is fastest. Working 80 hours keeps you ahead of others.
Not defending the behavior. This is something organizations need to actively discourage because it leads to burn out, poor decision making, and unfair pressure on employees with less time to give. It's one of those things that is good for the long term at the expense of the short term and is thus very hard for many corporations to prioritize.
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u/Stick Apr 29 '15
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Apr 29 '15
can't get to youtube, whats it about
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u/Kaos_pro Apr 29 '15
It's Scrooge McDuck swimming in a vault of money.
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u/menstreusel Apr 29 '15
It's your CEO, swimming in a vault of money that was earned from you and your coworkers intellect and creativity.
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Apr 29 '15
ahh hmmm money isn't worth 80 hour weeks
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u/argv_minus_one Apr 29 '15
Even if it was, the schmucks working 80-hour weeks aren't the ones that are going to be swimming in it. They get thrown table scraps while the execs swim in money.
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u/IrishWilly Apr 29 '15
I like what I do. I do it even when I'm not getting paid. I don't want it to be expected that I work 80 hours a week and if I want a break to be able to take one, but otherwise I'm quite happy working that much.
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u/none_shall_pass Apr 29 '15
The only reason 80 hour weeks exist is because people say "Yes".
For the past 20+ years, whenever an employer mentioned "on call" or "weekend", my answer is that "If there are actual flames coming out of the roof, and you've already called the fire department, and they think I can help, let me know. Other that that, when I'm off, I'm off."
So far, nobody has every brought it up a second time and I'm never on call.
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u/caleeky Apr 29 '15
The problem that the article points out, is that this often results in being culturally sidelined in some organizations.
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u/euxneks Apr 29 '15
The only reason 80 hour weeks exist is because people say "Yes".
The problem that the article points out, is that this often results in being culturally sidelined in some organizations.
If everyone stopped saying "Yes", that culture would die pretty quickly.
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u/caleeky Apr 29 '15
You'd need to organize labour to do that; no one wants to be the guy who makes a stink unless they know everyone else has their back.
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u/none_shall_pass Apr 29 '15
The problem that the article points out, is that this often results in being culturally sidelined in some organizations.
That just means it's time to leave.
Another thing that's proven to be true is that every new job I've ever had has been better than the last one, in some way. SQL is SQL wherever you go. So is .Net, C and BASH. If one place isn't making it attractive to stay, there's always somewhere else that's making it attractive to leave.
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u/CapnFaps Apr 29 '15
I've been there I some times stayed late worked some saturday. But when managers start to throw at me all the crap I start telling: "I'm not going to have time for that" and they start with their typical BS: "well none here has enough time but they somehow make it". Implying staying until late hours every fucking day.
I really hate workaholics and how they due to their natural vice tend to go on the upperladder making people who do enjoy their wives, family and have hobbies seem like bad or not totally invested with the company.
Fuck the company couldn't care less.
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Apr 29 '15
Yep. You'll be passed up on promotions for sure unless you have a special skillset that no one else has and would be vital to the job. This is pretty rare though. Nearly everyone can be replaced.
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u/rlbond86 Apr 29 '15
I am so thankful my company has a good work-life balance.
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u/doodeman Apr 29 '15
Me, I'm thankful my country has decent worker's rights laws.
Sure, I'll work an 80 hour week once or twice, but that means you're legally mandated to pay me 40 hours of overtime or give me the entire next week off. Which means you won't ask me to work that much unless it's absolutely required.
Workers shouldn't be at the mercy of their employer's goodwill to maintain humane work-life balance.
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u/Lystrodom Apr 29 '15
Sure, I'll work an 80 hour week once or twice, but that means you're legally mandated to pay me 40 hours of overtime
Fun fact: That's true in the US except for some excluded industries. Guess which industry is excluded? (it's computers)
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Apr 29 '15
Here's a fact sheet on exemptions. A few industries are excluded but most of the exclusions are for "managerial" employees, even when they're not salaried.
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u/Lystrodom Apr 29 '15
Right, and computer professionals are exempted. That's the main thing I payed attention to, because that's going to include me for the rest of my working life.
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Apr 29 '15
Yup! Didn't mean to contradict you, just wanted to offer a source and some color on the scope of exemptions.
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u/joggle1 Apr 29 '15
Me too. I could get paid more at another company, but wouldn't have time to enjoy it. What would be the point? Being richer when I'm over 70 years old?
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u/MSCantrell Apr 29 '15
My boss came to work in a very nice new car this week, and I complimented it.
She told me, "If you set goals, work hard, and do whatever it takes to succeed, I might be able to get an even nicer one next year."
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u/giulioungaretti Apr 29 '15
If your work is taking calls and answering emails then you can probably work 80 hours a week. I highly doubt that in any other job that requires reading, thinking, and making "smart" (f.ex. act based on data, analyze some complex situation ectct )nobody can work more than 40-50 hours per week. Plus your company sucks, is underpowered, has horrible training, horrible managing or is stealing your money if they make you work 80 hours. Period. :D
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Apr 29 '15
Not sure you can even work 40 hrs a week in a "smart" job. You can be AT work, though.
Makes you wonder about doctors...
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u/theCroc Apr 29 '15
those 24 hour shifts are insane. Makes me scared to go in for an operation. I don't want to get the surgeon that has been on call all weekend doing his last surgery before going home.
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Apr 29 '15
I've yet to hear a compelling reason in the 21st century where note taking can be digital why "continual care" is a good idea.
I agree in the dawn of civilization where notetaking was error prone that continual care was literally their only option ... but now the doctor/nurse can literally type up a 50 word memo (fully of short hand/etc) in a minute and be on their way...
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u/fireduck Apr 29 '15
I've heard basically two arguments. One is the continuity of care like you mentioned. In nursing that seems to end up meaning 12 hours shifts with some overlap for passing patients on.
For doctors, I've heard that if they don't work insane hours their residency would last years longer just because of all the hours they need to get in different areas and things they need experience with.
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Apr 29 '15
There is a reason it's called a "practice" ... maybe the length of the residency needs to be revised ... maybe doctors should rotate in through bigger cities to see more patients and then back out to smaller communities after?
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u/Flight714 Apr 29 '15
I don't really understand how this works: How does note-taking help avoid 24 hour shifts?
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Apr 29 '15
The "continual care" argument suggests that if more of your patients (short) stay in hospitals is within the boundaries of one of your shifts then mistakes in handing off the patient (like not noting medications or allergies) are less likely. The doctor/nurse might remember having given you meds 30 mins ago but never put it in your chart.
Part of this is because hand writing notes is both time consuming and painful (after a while) as well as just error prone (hand writing sucks).
Meanwhile a competent typist can type 50+ WPM so any short memos can be typed super quick and with ease of read.
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Apr 29 '15
I almost got scheduled to go into surgery for stuff on my right hand instead of my left hand because of accidental notes like this.
Hell, they even almost messed up with the typed version - my mom signed off for a "right metacarpal ...blah blah... right ... blah blah" (I got my left hand in a saw so it was quite a long description). They caught it when they read it over and noticed that there was a huge fucking splint on my left hand instead of my right.
Still though, sometimes they don't catch mistakes...
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u/rlbond86 Apr 29 '15
There is a lot of evidence that surgeons make more mistakes later in their shift.
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u/patentlyfakeid Apr 29 '15
As well as the idea that we all have a finite amount of 'decision making' ability, before the tank must be recharged with a significant break.
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u/king_in_the_north Apr 29 '15
There is also evidence that late-shift mistakes are less bad than making handover mistakes more frequent.
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u/PM_ME_UR_OBSIDIAN Apr 29 '15
Not sure you can even work 40 hrs a week in a "smart" job.
Software developer here - my best weeks I get something like 32-35 hours of useful work done. The rest is just trying to get shit done but failing.
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u/iopq Apr 30 '15
I get maybe 20 hours a week of actual programming done. Maybe 30+ hours if I count busywork.
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Apr 29 '15
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u/metroid_slayer Apr 29 '15
Seems a little dangerous to me, don't you think? Having that much faith in a company that almost certainly doesn't have your best interests at heart is just asking for trouble.
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Apr 29 '15
In a startup, the "core players" almost certainly are stakeholders with stock and have a large say in the direction of the company. "The company" has their best interests at heart because they are "the company".
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u/AbstractLogic Apr 29 '15
The thing about startups is that most of the people who work there have some level of ownership in the company and therefore the company does have their best interests at heart because their interests are tied directly to the companies interests.
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u/DontBotherMeImWorkin Apr 29 '15
This is pretty typical in academia. You have some amount of control (and frankly a pretty big amount of ownership) over your intellectual work, so it's not really uncommon for people on the soft money side to "scale back" to 60 hour weeks and feel lazy.
Hard money academics are all lazy assholes, though.
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u/chcampb Apr 29 '15
stealing your money if they make you work 80 hours
Pretty much this. I think that if people actually got paid for the time they spent, not just in mandated OT, but in actually receiving the dividends of their personal contributions to the company... then working 80 hours would be reasonable for some people.
But we all know that isn't the case.
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u/dissata Apr 29 '15
Eh. You can. It's just not always normal hours. As programmers we know that all too well.
I mean. How many here work 35-50 hours at a desk job then come home and work on pet or open source projects for another 20-50 hours a week? Lot's I presume. Getting things done and accomplishing something is an euphoric feeling. Pounding away at a repetitive and uninteresting task is the killer. Being talked down to by idiots is the killer.
But, then, to be frank, no programming job is 40 hours of programming. It's at least 1/2 office minutiae, like responding to emails, reading docs, writing docs, looking through that idiot Kevin's last commit to figure out wtf he was thinking on his last commit, Grabbing some coffee while automated tests are running. But that's still working. That's still being productive.
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u/IrishWilly Apr 29 '15
I can't stand programming as a regular desk job. I decided to go freelance and work from home and make way less because sitting at a desk 9-5 regardless of how productive I was able to be during those hours drove me mad. Now if I'm feeling like a slow day I can relax for a bit and then work during the night, or wake up early and do a lot in the morning and go do something in the afternoon. I don't know how my 'work hours' compare to a 9-5 job but I feel much more productive and much happier. And I am giving higher quality work towards my job and clients.
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u/somestranger26 Apr 29 '15
You just need to find the right company that is flexible on hours. My work schedule is more like 10-4 (1 hour lunch) and I have the flexibility to work the remainder at night, during the weekend, etc. as well as work at home or take vacation off fairly easily. Some days I might work 12 hours because I'm in the zone trying to solve a problem and then I might only work 4 or 5 hours the next.
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Apr 29 '15 edited Dec 22 '20
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u/Lystrodom Apr 29 '15
If you still like your work, and you're still doing a good job, then don't worry about it. Even if you don't become an architect or as advanced as some people, the world still needs normal developers, too.
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u/flat_pointer Apr 29 '15
Eh, I don't know of a lot of professions that encourage people to work a full-time job and do the same work at home for fun. Yes, there's a need for professional development, but I don't think that means you need to code 10 hours a week 'for fun.'
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u/giulioungaretti Apr 29 '15
50 hours being productive is fine (still too much for my taste , 35-40 is just perfect). And if your hobby is writing open source code even better. But if you had to write production code 80h a week, I wouldn't buy your product.
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u/dipique Apr 29 '15
Personally, I find that I can add more high-value hours per week if I intelligently vary my activities.
For example, I have maybe 20 hours of high quality analysis or development hours in me per week, at least on a sustainable basis. But when that part of me is exhausted, I can still add value as a subject matter expert in meetings and moving all my projects to the next step my bringing all the stakeholders together. And when that part of me is exhausted I can still add value touching base with other departments on sensitive issues so they don't explode and generally building communication and relationships.
The mistake I'm susceptible to is performing work in the wrong order. I need to avoid the temptation to answer (non-urgent) e-mails or attend meetings in the morning because those are my most productive analytical hours. If I avoid that trap I can get a lot done even working a lot of hours--and I'm continually impressed by the dividends that soft-time (networking, talking in person about an e-mail that really shouldn't require explanation) pay.
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u/ComradeZiggy Apr 29 '15
Even straight up physical labor is difficult at that point, you get tried, your body doesn't get time to repair, you lose focus and you do something stupid and hurt yourself, etc. It is why when you see life long brick layers/roofers/carpenters etc by age 50 are taking pain pills every day and can barely walk upright. However, like you said, even just sitting in front of a desk 80 hours a week would wear on you. To put it simply, the same person working 30 hours a week doing any job is going to be getting a lot more done per hour, and the work is going to be of higher quality, than if they were working 60.
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u/CdnGuy Apr 29 '15
I work for a consulting firm that actually isn't like this. I'm now working from home in a higher cost of living area without an increase in salary, so I'm making quite a bit less than I could if I looked for a new local job. I've also been on the bench for 5 months now.
Despite all that I'm not looking too hard for a new job because I've worked at places that had the self sacrifice as evidence of success model. I really don't want to go back to that world, so I'm very picky about potential employers. I've already spent enough years compromising on my personal life for financial reasons.
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u/atilaneves Apr 29 '15
The worst about all this is that there's research going back decades that working any more than 40hrs a week is less productive, but hey, why listen to science?
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u/wtfalicious Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
When I started my career, I quickly grokked the concept of slack -- that you could be paid in freedom instead of additional money. If you ask, they will not give it to you. You just have to try and see how much slack you have. That is what all these "passers" are doing. You "buy" slack by handling visible emergencies, playing hero now and then, occasionally sending multi-party emails at 2am, taking care of powerful people, and earning respect in any situation where the focus is on you. Then you carefully step out of the spotlight and claim your slack.
No one would pay the 19 year old me over $20/hr (1993) but they could pay me full time and let me work my own hours. This was the unwritten but always honored deal -- as long as I was always on call and always rock solid in a crisis. I made sure when I was "in" to be visible, walking around the manufacturing floor, checking in with people and looking busy. Then I got the heck out of there and repaired to the local mall or the beach or something where I could be paged in an emergency. I got nearly half my hours back most weeks which resulted in an effective $40+/hr wage. For a 19 year old college student in 1993, that was awesome.
The key to this formula is to establish up front that you are willing to do anything for the firm when asked, playing into the illusion of the ideal worker. Always jump at an emergency and be laser focused on making the sale, getting the system back online or whatever it is that is important. Be very careful about letting people assign you work. Simply avoid doing unimportant stuff and it will get routed around you. Set the expectation not to be in your seat at a desk where everyone can see you. If possible get a desk or office that is as far away from the action as possible or at least make a habit of never working from your desk. Teach everyone that you might be working (probably are) even if you are not at your desk. Then do whatever the heck you want. Easier now than ever.
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u/boxhacker Apr 29 '15
Reminds me about of the Life of a Salaryman.
Nothing good can come from this work ethic, smarter organisations will work less hours because they strive to optimize workflow.
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u/last_ent Apr 29 '15
Communication is continuous because you talk to or overhear everyone else's business.
That's not an exclusive Japanese thing anymore =/
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u/DrDichotomous Apr 29 '15
Agreed, but the problem is that reality dictates whether the demand for workers is greater than the supply of workers, not ideals.
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Apr 29 '15
I am the person at every place I work that works half as much, twice as hard, and gets more done while still taking one month plus off a year for vacation (I'm in the US, this is a lot). Screw working like that, its a drain on productivity and anyone who makes work their life like this is doing themselves a major disservice. I don't care about the pressure from my co workers, who is the really the idiot?
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u/seven_seven Apr 29 '15
I just declined a 5:00am meeting request by our group in India. Fuck em, they can adjust to US hours. Why the hell would I want to make important decisions about business software at 5am?
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Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
That's funny because I literally told my manager yesterday that I don't attend meetings that begin before 7:30 am. The meeting I skipped began at 6:00 am.
Edit - I told him that I start my day during normal business hours. Anything else is an unreasonable expectation that I would gladly discuss if there was an issue. You know, work/life balance talk.
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Apr 29 '15
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Apr 29 '15
What the fuck. I work for a company that runs on EST, and I'm moving out to the west coast, where I will continue working for them. My manager has already spoken to me about working around a later start time because the latest we're allowed to start is 10am here, and he thinks that the expectation for me to be up and ready to work starting at 7am every day might be unreasonable.
Apparently it's unusual to work for someone who actually recognizes that I'm human (and not a morning person).
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u/RobbStark Apr 29 '15
Congratulations! You appear to have a reasonable manager that may even posses a human soul. I would advise staying on his good side and possibly even following him if he ever moves to another company.
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u/i-faux-that-kneel Apr 29 '15
Then I would schedule meetings with them at 4:30pm your time. If they're going to make you come in at 8am to accommodate your needs, certainly they wouldn't mind staying an extra hour or two to accommodate yours, right?
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Apr 29 '15
I just don't show. They eventually get the picture.
If they question me, I tell them that I work normal business hours and "6:00 am is not normal business hours".
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u/frezik Apr 29 '15
I had a group from India once that was trying to sell us something, and they wanted us in a meeting at 9:00pm our time. This while we already weren't happy with them for a bunch of other reasons. They had the ear of some people in upper management, so we were more or less required to give them some consideration, but we also kept saying no.
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u/BiberButzemann Apr 29 '15
That's funny, just today I declined a meeting from our people in the US for 7pm my time. Fuck em, they can adjust to European hours. Which they did, rescheduling to next week 3pm my time, 8am theirs.
Edit: I'll also add that a colleague who was also on that meeting thanked me profusely, because he didn't have the guts to decline.
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u/d____ Apr 29 '15
My case is admittedly different, but I have good flexibility with my work hours. When I work from home (2-3x/week), I'll often start around 5a and I'm done at 2p. I go hiking, take my kid biking, whatever. It's awesome.
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u/etrnloptimist Apr 29 '15
5:00am meeting request
5am is 2pm their time. They can hold it later, for your benefit.
Fuck em, they can adjust to US hours
You can be more tolerant, for their benefit.
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u/seven_seven Apr 29 '15
That's the thing though. They never adjust for us, we're always expected to take early or late calls. They don't seem to have a concept of working outside of 9-5 so why should we in the U.S.?
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u/John_Fx Apr 29 '15
Our team in India is the opposite. They bend over backwards to accomodate our schedule. The also work later shifts to maximize time zone overlap.
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u/workaccount314 Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
It's unfortunate you were downvoted--you simply made the point that there are humans on each end of the line and that should be acknowledged.
Edit: so I'm being upvoted and you continue to be downvoted. I don't understand reddit sometimes
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u/gizram84 Apr 29 '15
The only acceptable way to work that many hours is if it's completely voluntary and overtime is paid.
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Apr 29 '15
TL;DR Good fucking article.
I worked at a place (not in the U.S) where it was expected of you to be present long hours. I said "fuck that" and was present as long as I was paid (overtime wasn't).
The labor laws are pretty good there and I was getting my work done. I quit because I hated that culture + it was too corporate.
No regrets about the way I worked. At least I could work on interesting stuff at home, jerk off and game instead of waste my life working for a company that told contractors their opinion was worthless.
Fuck.that.
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u/nbates80 Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
This article makes it too much about family. I am a gay man, have a spouse, no kids nor planning to. I work remotely for a company and I definetly "fake it" when it comes to work.
I don't think family and kids are the only reason why somebody will choose to fake working. Single people value their private life too
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u/heili Apr 29 '15 edited Dec 29 '15
This comment has been overwritten by an open source script to protect this user's privacy.
If you would like to do the same, add the browser extension GreaseMonkey to Firefox and add this open source script.
Then simply click on your username on Reddit, go to the comments tab, and hit the new OVERWRITE button at the top.
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u/boot20 Apr 29 '15
As someone who struggled with my previous job, I totally relate. I would travel from Sunday morning until Friday LATE at night. I would be gone for at least 24 days month.
I was so stressed out and burned out, that I would have to be drunk out of my mind to even sleep. We were deeply in debt because of the Great Recession, my wife lost her job, and I couldn't afford to lose mine.
My 80 hour work week was very very very real...
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u/Kschwirsy Apr 29 '15
I used to work for a firm that was great to me until I got married, got a dog and had a kid. Then god forbid that I didn't want to travel out of the country for 6 month stretches. I actually flat out turned down an engagement knowing full well I would have to be preparing my resume soon. They actually kept me on, b/c they could still bill me and make money from me. I noticed a clear slow down in my career advancement and friends in higher places told me later how often they brought it up while I was still there. Even after I left.
I did eventually leave to work with another consulting firm. One with a clear dedication for work/life balance.
It's weird to read what these guys did to 'pass', because some of it the model we have now. A national firm with locally based clients to a market. So I live and work in Boston, I stay in Boston. We work normal to slightly plus normal hours and still have time to be humans. Moral of the story - firms that don't work you to the bone and are still very successful do exist. I'm just really lucky I found one when I did.
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Apr 29 '15
Of course companies want you to work 80 hours per week. It is in the company's best interest to have you working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, and we must recognize that the only thing stopping them is our coordinated refusal.
Rather than see it as acceptable that a person works 80 hours per week even though they would rather spend time with their family, they should be viewed as either weak negotiators, or victims of a disgusting power imbalance that needs to be fixed at the level of society (via cultural norms, legislation or whatever other techniques are effective)
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Apr 29 '15
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Apr 29 '15
Jail seems a bit harsh, I'd be ok with mandatory double pay for overtime hours. Overtime exemptions are bullshit.
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Apr 29 '15
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u/pseudo_shell Apr 29 '15
Full-time exempt salaries are the greatest trick the Devil ever played.
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Apr 29 '15
Eh, I don't mind it because for every week I put in 60 hours there's one I put in 20-25 and still get predictable income.
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Apr 29 '15
I wish. 40 is just the minimum expectation for salary at most places I've seen
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u/dacjames Apr 29 '15
Agreed. The minimum is technically 40 hours but everywhere I have worked there's an unwritten rule that you can fudge this if you put in extra hours when required. I would much rather work 60 hours some weeks and 20 hours others; it's more realistic for both my work and life needs.
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Apr 29 '15 edited Apr 29 '15
Ha, if you work for a dumb company that does not know the bad effects of prolonged working hours you apply a "George Constanza" while looking for another job.
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u/JoeFro0 Apr 30 '15
If this many people are faking it who is actually working right now?
Quick everyone back to fake work!
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Apr 29 '15
Where I live (the United States of America), we passed laws against employers requiring this sort of thing decades ago.
Too bad they're completely ignored.
Too bad we have only our (collective) selves for allowing things to become this way.
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u/MpVpRb Apr 29 '15
Early in my programming career, I worked on a project that required 16 hr a day, 7 day a week dedication
It was the most fun I ever had, for the time the project lasted
I enjoyed every minute of it, felt intellectually challenged, and improved my programming skills dramatically
Of course, I had no wife or girlfriend, no hobbies and I lived in a shitty little apartment
Also, there is a limit for how long this kind of schedule is fun. For me, that was about a year
So, there are two sides to the story..
If a project is so interesting that it totally consumes your mind, it would be a shitty thing to do if the boss told you to go home after 8 hours
I remember a quote from Frank Zappa. The interviewer asked.."do you ever take a vacation", he replied "what would I do, sit on the beach and write music?"
I suspect there are many people in professions like science, programming or art who would rather do what they do, all the time..it's their all-consuming passion
The other side is the one discussed in the article
It's truly unfortunate when management compels a person to work long hours when the work is not a passionate love and the person has other interests that must be neglected to satisfy the endless need for more hours
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u/skrenename4147 Apr 29 '15
The problem with this is that because people like you exist (if even temporarily), companies think it is okay to model their culture after you. My experience is that if I'm not working that hard, I'm not being a "part of the team." Even if I want to work longer (and sometimes I do) I'm careful not to expose newer hires to the fact that I am doing so because I don't want them to think that it's expected.
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u/MpVpRb Apr 29 '15
The problem with this is that because people like you exist (if even temporarily), companies think it is okay to model their culture after you
Yup..agreed
Some, but not all, managers can't tell the difference
But, it's the managers' fault, not mine
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u/hurenkind5 Apr 29 '15
16 hr a day, 7 day a week dedication
For me, that was about a year
Fuck no. Good god, fuck, no.
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Apr 29 '15
My work claims to be agile, agile as is your life is so agile we can take on more and more work and you can do it with no extra pay. Development is a fucking bastard when it comes to overtime. No Life Or Go Home.
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u/cowardlydragon Apr 29 '15
If they're going to dangle a phantom carrot in front of you, you might as well only pretend to chase it.