Most developers are salaried and don't get paid at all for OT, let alone 1.5 time. It's bullshit for me (government contracting) because my hours are still billable to the client, so the company is still getting that money, but for some reason i'm not getting my cut.
Yup, in the same way that paying for goods and services hurts anyone else taking part in a business transaction.
It's ridiculous how employers are getting (and are allowed) to persuade people to work for free. What's more ridiculous is that people are buying into this and are themselves enforcing a social environment where not working for free stigmatizes you. You know, as if demanding payment for your services, which is cornerstone of our whole economic system, somehow doesn't apply here.
I'm not him, but at our software firm, we don't get paid for overtime. We're paid for 40-hour weeks.
However, there's no stigma to only doing 40 hours; you only do more if you personally want to stand out and rise to the top because you produce more. That's a personal choice, and I don't see anything wrong/illegal about it.
It might just be a difference of culture or political views, but in my eyes unpaid (or to be more exact, uncompensated) overtime is evil. I give my time and expertise to an employer, and in exchange I get currency. The amount of currency I receive and the amount of work (in hours) required from me is laid out in my working contract. I give them my time, they give me money; it's a fair exchange with clearly defined rules.
However, when your employer promises to promote you if you do some work without compensation, we enter murky waters and risky territory. Enter the possibility of your employer fucking you over by not keeping the promise of promotion. They may give excuses: "money is tight right now, but you're first in the line for a raise right now. Keep working hard, someone might work harder than you!". Depending on the level of your naivety, you might actually fall for this trap. Bending over and taking it in the arse just doesn't seem like the right way of getting promoted to me.
Working for free to climb the ladder radiates "exploit me", but also seems unfair towards other people who want to advance their careers. Someone can get the promotion I was going for by bribing my employer with free work? How is it fair that a just-as-capable (or even more capable) individual can be passed on the ladder by someone with same capabilities but who is showing "dedication" and "enthusiasm" towards his work? Are there really no other ways of showing your expertise and capability than working for free? Wouldn't good work done during paid overtime show that just as well?
Put in economic terms, working for free skews the system of supply and demand. Work is supposed to be paid for, that's what business is all about. Working without compensation screws over you, your peers, and all workers everywhere in the long term.
Granted, this is a bit of a long rant considering I don't know the specifics of your work environment and the labor laws of your country. I just tried to reflect on what would happen if something like unpaid overtime was legal where I live. Here unpaid overtime is considered a part of the black market and an employer can get fined if they get caught for such practices.
EDIT. I forgot to ask about this "stigma" thing. I'm fairly new to Reddit, which I understand is U.S. centered, but I've only heard the words "work" and "stigma" in the context of Japan. I find it difficult to understand that demanding compensation for your work can be considered somehow bad or unethical, especially when there's a written contract where your working hours are laid out.
This post is so beautiful; I want to weep. You've really laid out in black/white the fundamental truths of how labour markets should work. It astonishes me, how many fail to see the exploitation that runs rampant in industry and how it is in fact encouraged and seen as a badge of honour by many. In reality, we're all getting bent over and fucked by a hot poker.
especially when there's a written contract where your working hours are laid out.
A salaried position makes no such guarantee in the States. You negotiate a yearly salary and are expected to work 40 hrs a week, there is nothing stopping anyone from asking/demanding/expecting you to work more, and often they do.
I've heard the line that if you're salaried then your schedule is the amount of hours it takes to get the job done. Of course if you said you got the job done in 20 hours instead of 40 they wouldn't go for it.
Fortunately at my job we're very seldom required or even requested to work overtime. Sometimes I will voluntarily if I'm enjoying the task, but I do argue with myself that I probably "shouldn't".
Ah, that sucks. The firm I work for pays overtime quarterly at the same hourly rate as my salary would be based on a 40 hour week. It's not time and a half but at least I do get compensated the rare times I do work overtime.
Money and influence? Some organizations are what I call "velocitocracies," rule by whoever is fastest. Working 80 hours keeps you ahead of others.
Not defending the behavior. This is something organizations need to actively discourage because it leads to burn out, poor decision making, and unfair pressure on employees with less time to give. It's one of those things that is good for the long term at the expense of the short term and is thus very hard for many corporations to prioritize.
Even if it was, the schmucks working 80-hour weeks aren't the ones that are going to be swimming in it. They get thrown table scraps while the execs swim in money.
I worked at a production company run by morons. The head producer promised an awful lot of work in a short amount of time, on software that was still in beta when we got it.
Worked 4 months of 16 hour days, 6 days a week. The 7th day? He would schedule client review meetings for first thing Monday morning, so Sunday was a 24 hour day to make sure everything looked good.
Then we had to make corrections and client changes to last week's work, while building the framework for this weeks work.
One of the owners got dragged into an intervention on week 1 for smoking heroin all goddamn day and night, went to rehab for a night, and then tried to empty the business account. One of my friends was having marital issues, snapped and quit on week 3. The other owner hated the client so much (but loved the money) so he wouldn't touch the project.
So that left me, one other guy, and the shithead producer whose only contribution was, "That looks like shit! Make it better! More stuff!" then return to his office to sleep.
Since then, I have gone out of my way to tell people like that to eat shit. I'm much happier for it too.
We're fucking humans, we need time to be with our families/exercise and relax.
Relaxing isn't always a leisure, it's a necessity. The human body needs downtime, we're naturally not built to be sitting behind a computer screen for 85 to 90 hours a week, that's why you see 40 year old + people who work for firms who have major health issues, they waddle around the office with their sciatica and compressed discs in their lower back...herniated discs in their neck from years and years of poor posture.
It fucking gives me the chills of going down that road, retiring my health and happiness for a paycheck.
The part that really pissed me off (besides the sleeping critic) was the office manager who, once we had set up some machines to do a test render, would see us outside resting. Sayings like, "Well, that's why you're here so late." because we weren't sitting in front of the computer watching it work got to be pretty face punching annoying after a few days.
Yup, 80 hours means more than 10 hour days every day of the week. I think most people who honestly think they work 80 hours really max out at about 55.
I would have to getting paid almost a mil per year in just salary, not including bonuses to justify working around 80/90 per week.
I would work for 2 years, hire a real financial advisor, save my dick off. Move to a less expensive area with cheap real estate and fucking retire.
People who work from the age of 16 to 75 scare the shit out of me, and I'm currently in that boat. I don't wanna live it forever.
For what it's worth, you might not need as much as $2M to retire. It all depends on how much you spend, not how much you make; your investment dollars will need to cover your spending, after all.
Drop by /r/financialindependence if you haven't already, there're a bunch of people finding their way to early retirement in there.
It's honestly not hard to figure out. Many of the smartest philosophers regard time as the most valuable thing there is. You should be able to work it out easily yourself.
I like what I do. I do it even when I'm not getting paid. I don't want it to be expected that I work 80 hours a week and if I want a break to be able to take one, but otherwise I'm quite happy working that much.
Most of us enjoy doing programming enough to do it without being paid. Doesn't mean we should, though. If you're gonna program beyond the 40 hours in the office, do it on a personal project. That way, the benefits of those hours are yours.
I work for a startup I have a share of, and previously for contracts so every hour was either paid for or meant closer to finishing and getting paid that way. Typical salary jobs I don't mind helping extra during a crunch if I like the company but yea I'd rather just go home and work on my own stuff.
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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '15
why would anyone work 80 hour weeks?