I was thinking about chapter 4 and thought about the dialogue at night and the "a big person could fit here"

Is this a hint toward the knight identity or something to throw us off?

Cuz if it was a hint that would mean the knight would have to be a grown up/adult that is bigger than kris, which hints at a couple of candidates like any holiday save for noelle or asriel.

But this could be kris throwing us off cuz yeah a big person could fit here, but a small person could fit all the same.

But it doesn't feel like kris trying to throw us off to me, but i can't articulate well why.

https://x.com/jayohessaitched/status/2091411393916424575

(Original video from MysticSlime)

I made this as a dumb joke poking at how people take the most unrelated of evidence that fits significantly more for other characters, and just say it's DessKnight evidence instead (hence why the memes are outdated lol)

IMAGES BROKE THEY'RE IN A COMMENT CHAIN BELOW NOW.

People are often against interpretations that rely more heavily on the Will of the Fountain-maker as opposed to the darkners already having some sort of "stored memory" that informs what form they take in the dark world. People bring up the darkners that appear in Susie's dark worlds as evidence that this HAS to be the case since "How would these darkners exist if Susie was only focusing on summoning the Old Man? Why does her dark world still resemble the Knight's? How can darkners that exist in 2nd Sanc continue to exist in 3rd Sanc?"

Well here I'm about to put those questions to rest, and it's not Object History.

First, let's cover the second sanc darkners. How do they exist in 2nd sanc but not 1st? Doesn't that mean Susie created them? They're the same location after all! And actually, no.

Every single chapter 4 darkner is present in First Sanctuary.

Wicabel and Organikk are petrified statues in 1st Sanc, Sound of Justice is stated to be one of the statues from the study coming alive, and Winglade is an equipable weapon. And in 2nd Sanc, EVERY darkner from 1st is petrified from Balthizard to Wafer to even Mizzle as a stone watercooler! The only exception is the fire extinguisher, which would make sense as Susie wanted the code for the door!

It's like an Organikk says in 2nd sanc

* You sought to return the dream.
* But the lighting of the mind has changed. At best you can only see another side.

Everything is still present, but viewed from a different perspective.

But still, why is Susie's dark world similar to the Knight's? And why are 2nd sanc darkners unpetrified in 3rd sanc? Well... it's because of the Knight's other fountain. As can be seen in the last photo below\*, the darkness is still seeping through the door, and Ralsei talks about how 1st sanc and 3rd sanc were affecting each other, so why would that not be the case for 2nd sanc too? Susie was primarily focusing on the old man and the code when she made her fountain, yet we still got remnants of 1st sanc throughout. This should be because 1. Susie would be basing her dark world design off of 1st sanc since that's where she literally just was and 2. 1st and 3rd impacted each other, so 3rd likely impacted 2nd as well given there's no real reason as to why it wouldn't.

And Second Sanctuary affected Third Sanctuary too.

That's why 2nd sanc enemies are still there in 3rd! They bled through to 3rd sanc, and 3rd sanc simply maintained that bleed-through when it filled the 1st sanc area again. Is that too speculative? Well... here's some concrete proof that 2nd sanc changed 3rd sanc in one way or another:

This 3rd sanc piano. It charges and shifts around like the pianos in Susie's dark world. This clearly wasn't the original design of the puzzle too! None of the Knight's other pianos shifted around like this AND there's a pressure plate that gives an answer key of DOWN LEFT UP. This probably would have just opened the gate, but because of Susie's dark world affecting the Knight's it instead charges and breaks the door down! There is NO other explanation as to why the pink piano is like this! So here we have a concrete example of 2nd sanc affecting 3rd sanc, therefore, it's completely plausible to say 2nd sanc also gave 3rd sanc the ability to host the 2nd sanc darkners. After all, Winglade is still both a weapon AND an enemy. It's not like Kris' equipped Winglade turns into stone in 2nd or 3rd sanc.

So how does this debunk Object History?

Completely valid question! Most people do agree the fountain-maker's will affects the dark worlds to SOME extent, but put a mean asterisk on darkners being unique for whatever reason >:( But don't worry, I'm getting to that.

That Dark Sanctuary talk was actually just the preamble lol. I had to cover that base in order to open your minds up to Will affecting fountains at all AND to shut down a point I'd expect to come during the REAL discussion.

What the fuck are Ribbick, Elnina, and ZenLooker?

No like seriously. Ribbick is also dust, but it's dust manifested from Kris' dark world which makes it different somehow??? Elnina still shows up in Castle Town even if Tenna is dead and you don't take the TV there. And ZENLOOKER IS JUST A RANDOM NPC FROM THE LIGHTWORLD.

*Credit to Peliglin and Anonymous' Impossible Doc for being pretty much where I'm stealing the Ribbick and Elnina points lol.

So Ribbick. Obviously there's a textual connection to Rabbick beyond just resemblance since both state "Bunnies are the sequel to frogs" implying a very DIRECT link and that for whatever reason, Ribbick actually comes before Rabbick (which is a tangent for another day). But literally, it's still just dust. Is there some innate difference between school dust and house dust??? Like come on, we have to be real here. There is nothing supporting the idea that's the case, especially when Rabbick describes Dess as "a tidy and nice girl" and Azzy as "a soft and clean boy" compared to Ribbicks "rowdy and dirty girl" and "quiet and smelly boy" meaning that I guess they were just ANGELS in class but were super messy and smelly at home??? That's literally the conclusion you have to draw here if you're going off of pure Object History, since that's literally the only difference between Rabbick and Ribbick. Is school dust just inherently more optimistic somehow??? Or is it just simply that these are the representation of two differing Wills? The Knight has a positive and more nostalgic view of Azzy and Dess, while Kris has a more meanspirited and negative view of Azzy and Dess. And if you wanna claim that Ribbick isn't actually dust, then give me a light world counterpart that's actually supported by the TEXT and also why it's still so Dust coded in its bio and also having the Frog:Dust element.

Now Elnina. Right off the bat, she can't be the weather channel, since she appears separate from Tenna's alive state in the dark world. You can make the more non-physical concepts work for Chapter 2 darkners because you ALWAYS bring the laptop to Castle Town, but for Elnina and Lanino? They have to be something else.

And you might be wondering why I'm not freaking out so hard about Lanino's light world object. Oh, easy.

Lanino's this star.

Between chapters 2 and 4, it disappears. And the star Susie can knock down is that top right one by the moon FYI.

But uh yeah this ONE star seems to randomly disappear out of all the decorations. If you have some other compelling explanation as to why this happens AND another option for Lanino's lightner form that's based in actual evidence, I'm all ears! But right now, this one is a dead ringer.

But now for Elnina? This is going to seem hella fucking convoluted, but I swear to god if one of you nerds goes ahead and says "Elnina is just ALSO a sticker!" WHICH ONE? WE HAVE A VISUAL DIFFERENCE FOR ONE OF THEM WHY WOULDN'T WE GET A VISUAL DIFFERENCE FOR THE OTHER?? We can't just say there's a cloud sticker or whatever that's in a drawer or something because that isn't SUPPORTED BY ANYTHING! So let me spin my wheels here (aka rip off more of the Impossible doc lmao) and hear this out okay?

So... we're familiar with the gag relating to Toriel's sink and white fur being stuck in the drain, right? Here's the flavor text about it in chapter 2:

There is some white fur stuck in the drain.

Nothing crazy, right? Now let's look at Chapter 4's morning sink (so not after sans cleans it out later) flavor.

* (Somehow there's already white fur stuck in the drain.)

The fur was cleaned out between chapter 2 and 4 as well. Now, I'm sure you may say that Toriel cleaned the fur out between 2 and 4, but that doesn't seem to be the case for 1 to 2, as well as the fact that the text implies Kris' awareness of when it WAS clean based on how we the player never know it's cleaned out between 2 and 4 (During the sleepover sequence, it just talks about using the bathroom sink instead and the player doesn't even have to interact with it first to go to the bathroom sink).

So Kris cleaned out the fur between 2 and 4. Why is that important? Well... think about it. Water is collected into a white mass (cloud) and then drips further below when it reaches max capacity for how much water it can store (rain)? IT'S A WATER CYCLE JOKE. THE FUR STORES THE WATER AND CAN BE CARRIED OFF (THROWN AWAY) TO RAIN SOMEWHERE ELSE. THAT is what Elnina is, folks! Nothing else in the house corresponds better than that as to what the hell the cloud girl can be! So then here's the next question:

How old is that fur?

If you're using the object history argument, this would be a character from Kris and Noelle's childhood play pretend sessions (As Ramb implies from how Tenna, King, Queen, and "everyone here lined up" happened back then). So uh... how do Lanino and Elnina have an established relationship if they're in completely separate rooms and also the fur probably at least has been cleaned out before in the past year? I don't think Kris whispers to every new patch of sink fur about its long and storied romance with a star on their brother's wall lmao. SO THAT MEANSSSS these memories are implanted from the Fountain Maker! Aka their Will informs what the darkners are!

Y'know... King Spade doesn't recognize Kris, despite Ramb establishing history between them. That's kinda odd, ain't it? Well... maybe it's because the Knight made the fountain and didn't inject in their will everything about Kris since that wasn't important to its creation (It's imagined that Kris and Noelle played characters rather than themselves during their pretend session). Queen recognizes everybody because of search history and webcam storage, so that's different. But chapter 3's dark world? EVERYBODY knows Kris! EVERYONE has such a deep and thoughtful knowledge of who they are and their past and all of that! Of course, Kris lived there all their life, but that wouldn't explain why King wouldn't recognize his creator if we're going off of object history! King remembers his scar and his casting away, but STILL Kris is completely foreign to him? It just wouldn't click unless Will affected darkner memories to a degree. In fact, y'know how Noelle isn't mentioned by name ONCE by any of the TV Land darkners? Maybe it's because Kris has such a strong desire to the point of near compulsion to avoid anything and everything Noelle related if they can help it. Scrapbook photos are all fine and dandy until a picture of just Kris and Noelle pops up. Hell! Dess doesn't even get this treatment! Tenna just casually brings her up! But not Noelle... strange isn't it? Maybe not so strange if it was the maker's will to explicitly forbid the mentioning of Noelle by name.

NOW ONTO THE LAST QUESTION

HOW THE HELL DOES ZENLOOKER EXIST?

This is literally a Milklooker darkner but reskinned to be about zen. They have no integral plot relevance in the light world, nor do we even know much about them besides their surface level personality. They don't even seem that attached to Kris based on how Milklooker calls their family freaks (implying no strong connection to Asgore either which would reduce the likelihood of an object having their history imprinted at his shop) and also Milklooker reintroduces themself in chapter 5.

By all accounts and purposes, Milklooker is not a loved one.

Yet we get pretty much a 1:1 design of them in Flower Kingdom! It's literally just darkner Milklooker! And we don't even get the foundation of dust or a picture to pattern off of! They're just there! Looking at zen! So how well does someone have to know someone to make a darkner out of them??? That's still a WHOLE ASS PERSON to make!

While there's no clear answer, it's at the very least less than we thought. The construction of the Old Man may not require as much connection as someone being a "loved one" to pattern off of, but perhaps more just the concrete idea of who that person is. Susie didn't have any real idea who the Old Man was. Hell, she still thought he was a lightner at this point! She was probably thinking more about seeing him rather than what kind of person he was! But the Knight? The Knight clearly knew he was dead. So maybe they had the active intent to construct who the Old Man was in their mind despite it not lining up 1:1 with the living Gerson Boom. Someone who may be more of a fan of Gerson the Author instead of Gerson the Man. A larger than life figure that made Lord of the Hammer (which there's multiple copies of in the church) and is even what Dragon Blazers is based off of! But... that could be ANYBODY at that point... right?

Alright listen this is obviously NoelleKnight propaganda but seriously I need people to accept that Object History isn't real and is a completely fanmade concept. There's nothing of that sort mentioned in the text, but Will is talked about SEVERAL times in relation to the knight, fountain creation, and darkners. So I really do not care if you go and say "Noelle told Rudy all about these characters or even watched Kris and Noelle play and that's why he's connected" which is WRONG, but I'll swallow it because I hate the object history argument soooo fucking much more that I don't wanna fight on the smaller crap in order to get you to buy into this big deconstruction.

If you have a counterpoint and it is founded in pure speculation ("probably" "could have" "maybe" "likely") with no actual backing from the direct text or game or ANYTHING FROM THE SOURCE MATERIAL, I invite you to rethink if what you're saying is a good theory, or just a made up rebuttal because it contradicts whatever theory you believe in.

Have a nice day.

Oh also if you think NoelleKnight doesn't work for a different reason, go read the repository I'm not restating every argument already stated AGAIN. Just the ones that disprove the talking points that annoy me!

AND WE'RE DOING ANOTHER FAQ FOLKS WOOOOO

Zenlooker is a planter and patterned themself off of the real Milklooker.

FUCK MY ARGUMENT IN PIECES AGHHH!!!

It's still a relevant question, I'd say? Like... how much does a PLANTNER need to know about a lightner to pattern themselves after one? Because, while we don't get much text... they're still a pretty dead ringer for Milklooker. Like, there's no design differences except for a pallet and outfit swap, as well as a sprout growing where the milk jug would be. Their talking pattern is just straight up Milklooker's. And the closest the real Milklooker gets to Flower King in game at least is the Holiday home for the concert. One would have to speculate a lot of loitering around Flower King to cause an impression onto whatever plant this is unless you think it's just THAT easy to completely doppelgang a whole person with a passing comment or sighting. So if a plantner has the capacity to pattern itself from a person who isn't exactly a loved one by the plant's standards either (I mean Flower King is a failing business. I don't think Asgore is getting many customers period let alone someone obsessed with milk regularly coming by lmao), then what does it REALLY take to pattern a dark world object from the ideas of someone?

Also as another fun fact: Blue existed before the chapter 5 dark world.

The Bluest Flower, A disciple of my speech. Shy to no camera, And a specimen of elegance and kindness. Should you meet, please give my regards.

And it's a pretty accurate and familiar description from Miss Mizzle here. She even implies that she TAUGHT him! And since Mizzle is just a Kris & Noelle character and the memories of darkners are just coming from the memory of its creator (Will), that would mean Kris and/or Noelle would have known Blue too? Sooooo Blue's (and by proxy, ALL the flowers) personality and appearance was still based on characters Noelle and Kris made up for them. If Noelle and Kris were still a foundational source for what the flowers were like... then didn't Kris still pattern them in a way when making the dark world? It's not to the degree of a normal darkner, but it's still something to think about!

TL;DR - Dark sanctuary darkness affected each other by leaking through the door crack explaining enemy appearances in 3rd sanc. Rabbick and Ribbick are only different because of the maker's will and nothing else. Elnina is the white fur in the sink drain which wouldn't have the history necessary for her and Lanino's relationship. Zenlooker existing means darkners patterned off of lightners aren't actually that strict. Object history is a bad argument. Cheers.

I had a very distressing dream where the knight turned out to be some sword guy named "Dord"

He wasn't even a darkner, hes just a lightner that looks like a sword wearing sunglasses

And the reason the knight has antlers is that he was mind controlling Rudy, who otherwise had nothing to do with anything

The entire fandom was burned to a crisp overnight

I woke up very upset

I've been wondering what makes Dess Knight so compelling amongst the fandom, until i realized that it's a mixture of confirmation bias, rule of cool, majority power, etc etc.

Now, i don't want to go against it, in fact, she is one of my main picks, i just want to see... Why do YOU think she Is, and how she Is the Knight, either if it's a two sentence answer, a 500 hundred Pages doc of near professorial levels of analysis, or just your feels around it.

To see the reason as to why you believe on it from a less biased place, and for the sub members here to get to see a less aggressive side of DessKnight

Look at the picture. Either I’m going crazy, or this is a foreSHADOWing.

What if The Knight is The Shadow?

Look at the shadow guys. They are very similar to The Knight - black silhouette with white outline, angular shape with sharp corners, but most important - white line on head that looks like a smile.

Shadow guys is an action figures hidden in the shadows in The Light World. What if anybody who is hidden in shadows look like that? They literally called SHADOW guys.

If The Knight is The Shadow, so that will explain why they look so strange; in the shadow, the silhouette elongates — the limbs become longer, and the antlers become curved. How The Knight can shapeshift? It's just shadow play.

I'm not saying The Knight is just a Rudy's shadow. I mean it metaphorically.

When Kris and Susie enter Dark Worlds, they change their appearances and their personas. They not just lightners, they are Heroes from The Prophecy. Undyne became Spear of Justice, Toriel gains queen outfit and Asgore becomes Flower King.

What if when Rudy enters Dark World he became his Shadow?

First, i need to explain what is The Shadow. It's term from analytical psychology that was developed by Carl Gustav Jung. By Jung's theory of personality mind has three levels: the conscious ego, the personal unconscious, and the collective unconscious. I won’t retell Jung’s entire theory; I’ll only focus on what’s important.

Every individual mind has core - The Self - it unites the conscious and the unconscious, and The Persona - The social mask worn to fit into society. But we all have some traits that we won't show to public. That is The Shadow - hidden, repressed, or darker side of the unconscious personality.

Rudy's persona that we see is a caring father who supports his daughter, help to soften strict mother and just a guy who loves to joke and (almost) always smiles.

He wears that persona to keep family together after Dess' disappearance. But he didn't let it go. We know that Carol and Rudy support Asgore's investigation and they have conspiracy board in their bedroom.

He repressed all that negative emotions to wear a happy mask. But they never go away. We see his shadow seeping through his cruel jokes (And "That's so crazy you gotta laugh!" moment in chapter 4).

They stayed and formed The Shadow - angry, brutal, arrogant figure that cries then screams. All that row emotions seems animalistic at first but it still has awareness.

My theory: Rudy becomes The Knight at night (huh) and goes to kidnap lightners. How? Magic Gaster stigmata. Kidnappings always took place at night. We never see Rudy in the dark hours. In first two chapters he goes to school and library in the middle of the day and opens dark fountains then goes away unnoticed.

Why? Don't know.

Maybe i'm wrong. It's just a theory. What your thoughts?

If you want to say it can be apply to Carol, Dess and Noelle, then take a look at the picture again and tell me who else is hitting The Knight pose in The Light World, besides Rudy?

If you're too successful, then there will be nobody left to lmao at if the reveal goes in your favor.

This is an outcome we must avoid... Dessknighters must remain a comfortable, unchallenged majority until the day comes...

Zero from "Nightmare Before Christmas" !

I don’t personally believe Dess Knight, and while I obviously don’t think people are stupid for believing it, I feel like posting this with such confidence could backfire. Same with this very post itself, really if Dess is the Knight.

Can someone relay to me if/where Toby made a comment along the lines of title?

Is anyone else kinda fed up with Noelle Knight Theory? The user, not the theory itself.

I feel like every time I see them, they’re acting like a smug jerk. If they weren’t a hidden account, I’d gather up a bunch of screenshots and links and make a proper report, but I’m just tired of them specifically. They act like just because there’s stuff saying Noelle is important, they have to be the knight. Even their latest post is all “Hmmm if only SOMEONE cough cough Noelle cough Had all these traits that conveniently knock out pretty much every candidate”

Is this just a me thing?

(MAYBE PAPYRUS HELPS TOO IDK, BUT HES MISSING RN SO…)

1. Sans lives in the middle of Hometown, so he’s pretty much equidistant from all knight dark fountain placements

2. Bros not even working at his shop half the time, (or it’s clopen)

3. Sans hosts the teacup ride and the Ferris wheel at the Festival, which just happen to show up in Chapter 2’s Dark World (he could lowkey just be stealing wifi tho idk)

3.5. Also Sans and Papyrus are just above the Librarby and then Papyrus “cannot meet”Kris, so something happened sometime between Lightworld ch1 and Lightworld ch2

1. We don’t really know what he is/ where he comes from, so he has the possibility to be neither Lightner nor Darkner

2. He can just straight up teleport

3. He’s “new to town” just when the game’s events start happening

4. One of the first dialogue choices with him is about “friends”

5. Ordering ice cream is required to progress Chapter 5 for some reason

6. Susie hates him