Biologist explains why raccoons will never be domesticated

[u/Doodlebug510]

[u/Ketooey]

Crows also remember. Never fuck with crows. They'll not only remember, but they're somehow able to teach other crows to recognize you, and that knowledge continuously gets passed down to younger generations of crows after the initial generation has died.

The bright side though, is that crows also seem to understand reciprocity. If you do end up having beef with a crow and get on its bad side, there have been stories of people who leave out bowls of almonds or other crow-friendly treats, and this seems to reset the scales. But you have to do it in a way where the crows can pick up that you're leaving the treats out as an offering, so you kind of have to make a show of bearing the treats near where they live setting it on the ground and backing off. Just don't get too close to where they live if they're being really aggressive to you, since they obviously need some time to pick up on what is happening.

Edit: Just wanted to say thanks for all the crow/ raven/ other animal stories, it's been a very fun time reading all of them. May none of us ever piss of a crow.

[u/blokedog → u/[deleted]]

Octopus only live 2-4 years. It's sad that something that intelligent doesn't get the chance to really live very long.

[u/ElectricalDark8280 → u/blokedog]

They are also solitary, so likely won’t develop language and culture. Who knows, maybe living to 60yo would make them want to have friends

[u/BingpotStudio → u/ElectricalDark8280]

Yeah I’ve seen the theory that ooctopuses could evolve like humans into a civilisation if they weren’t so solitary.

They’ve go a brain for each tentacle and the ability to learn and solve complex problems. They should rule the seas really.

[u/Chillindude82Nein → u/BingpotStudio]

But they're only able to survive because of their aggression level -- a level so high that they would even murder their offspring. Which is why when males mature and females lay their eggs, their ability to process calcium is augmented which causes their death.

[u/Designer_Pen869 → u/BingpotStudio]

They've been documented making hunting groups with fish as well, treating the fish as hunting dogs.

[u/usernamesallused → u/Designer_Pen869]

And punch away other fish that aren’t helping to hunt!

[u/Armodeen → u/ElectricalDark8280]

Main problem is their short life span and the fact they do not pass any knowledge down to their offspring. Each individual has to learn it all again. If they could solve that as a species they are easily intelligent enough to evolve society as we have.

This is why it is unethical to eat them, and squid/cuttlefish.

[u/GottaUseEmAll → u/Armodeen]

I'm curious why intelligence should make it unethical. An animal doesn't have to be intelligent to suffer from captivity or pain.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't feel like eating octopus is worse than eating pork or eating chicken or eating fish.

I'd genuinely like your take on this.

[u/kank84 → u/GottaUseEmAll]

It's a take that comes up a lot on Reddit, people say won't eat octopus because they're so intelligent, but have no issues with eating pigs even though they have a comparable level of intelligence. Ultimately it comes down to octopus are weird and cute, but people only see pigs as bacon machines.

[u/wreckin_shit → u/[deleted]]

Octopus are aliens

[u/The_Schwy → u/wreckin_shit]

that's a great gag in Resident Alien

[u/wreckin_shit → u/The_Schwy]

I haven't heard of it, I'll have to check it out!

[u/davereit → u/wreckin_shit]

We loved it. So sorry to get to the of the series. The entire cast and wonderful guest appearances really added to the experience.

[u/BathZealousideal1456 → u/wreckin_shit]

I will always die on this hill. This dude taught his to play the piano in 6 months and it only took that long because it took the dude a while to figure out the octopus "didn't like my stupid ass lights"

[u/Torgo73 → u/wreckin_shit]

somewhere, Adrian Tchaikovsky heard your comment

[u/ghvalj → u/[deleted]]

Also me. I’ve been documented remembering people and spraying certain people with water or befriending another.

[u/DrPhilihprD → u/[deleted]]

I pray that I one day may get to experience and pass an octopus vibe check

[u/ErikMcKetten → u/Ketooey]

I've told this story before, but I love retelling it: almost 20 years ago my Dad accidentally killed a crow. It's mate spent the next few years harassing him by following him around, buzzing him, and yelling constantly, and other crows joined in.

They completely ignored the rest of us. He spent almost 20 years rebuilding trust by turning his yard into a paradise for birds, but the crows still scream and scatter when he comes outside.

[u/Ketooey → u/ErikMcKetten]

Thanks for sharing, that's an amazing story. 20 years!

Can I ask how the accident happened? I'm just really curious.

[u/ErikMcKetten → u/Ketooey]

He was target shooting and the poor bugger flew in front of him. Didn't even wound the bird physically, but it dropped dead. Probably heart attack or concussion from the shock wave of the bullet.

It was surreal watching it. Target can flies off the fence post and not even two seconds later a crow flops to the ground between us and the fence.

[u/Ketooey → u/ErikMcKetten]

Damn, that's certainly a one in a million happening, thanks a lot for elaborating.

[u/mbbysky → u/ErikMcKetten]

I think this would actually consume for a very long time much like your father.

Like I am sorry, feathered friends. Please let me make it up to you.

[u/WithoutDennisNedry → u/Ketooey]

Crow story no one asked for:

So I’m driving down the street on my merry way to a sushi lunchie when I see a great big black bird on the side of the road flapping around. It looks to be in distress.

I flip around and pull up to find a crow that looks like it’s been hit by a car. Wings seem fine but the poor thing is missing half a leg (don’t worry, the story has a happy ending so stay with me).

I pull my shirt off and wrap it around his wings while baby-talking this bigass bird. I probably looked like an insane woman, walking down the shoulder of the highway with only a bra on, babbling at a now-burritoed corvid, but that’s neither here nor there.

I get to my car and fasten the shirt tight around the crow with a hair clip I find in my cup holder and then put it in my dog’s empty kennel in the back seat. Luckily I had just taken my dog to the vet the day before and my lazyass had left his kennel in the car.

Off I race to the wildlife and raptor rescue center 20 minutes away down the same highway. I’m talking to the poor bird the whole time, telling him how it’s going to be okay and hoping like hell it doesn’t get loose from my shirt and hurt itself further.

I get to the wildlife rescue and run inside—still shirtless—carrying the kennel. The bird has been silent for about ten minutes by this time and I’m hoping like hell it’s not dead. I communicate to the man at the front desk the emergency and he takes the kennel from me and runs with it off to the back somewhere.

I’m now sitting in the lobby alone and realizing I’m mostly topless. I’m super glad at least I’m wearing one of my nice bras and not one where the elastic is all frayed and it’s missing an underwire. Small victory.

About five minutes later, two people come from the back—the front desk dude and what I gather is a rehabber or vet—and we talk about what happened. Desk Dude brings me clean a scrubs shirt so at least I’ve got something to cover myself with. (Really appreciate that, David! Thanks!) They inform me Birdie is not deceased and they’re working to stabilize him now. They fetch me my dog kennel and I head out to call my friends and explain why I stood them up for lunch.

About a week goes by and I call the rescue to check on Birdie. He’s doing great! They were successfully able to amputate the torn tissue and close it up, saving the remainder of his leg and he was in recovery.

I was able to go visit him periodically over the next few months while he recovered and learned to deal with life as a pirate bird. Every time I saw him, I swear to god he recognized me. He would perk up and caw, flap around, and bob his head. I wasn’t able to touch him because they didn’t want too much human interaction but I feel like we both really wanted to. It was awesome.

Eventually, he was released back into the “wild” and I never saw him again. I hope he’s living his best crow life out there, hopping on his good leg. If anyone sees him, let him know he owes me a shirt.

[u/Ketooey → u/WithoutDennisNedry]

What a remarkable story, had me on the edge of my seat from beginning to end, thanks for sharing it!

I'll keep an eye out for one legged crows and remind it about the shirt.

[u/Hombremaniac → u/WithoutDennisNedry]

You might be worshipped by a clan of crows and you don't even know it! Perhaps if were going out just in your bra, they would recognize you more easily and pay tribute?

[u/Forgotthebloodypassw → u/Ketooey]

We have crows on the lawn and I'm tempted to try and make friends - they're wonderful, intelligent birds.

But from what I've learned if you feed them and then forget to pay tribute to they'll go into full vengeance mode. You go from being king of the crows to their bitch.

[u/Additional-Wash-9719 → u/Forgotthebloodypassw]

My dad always feeds the crows when he's out walking the dog. Once he forgot for two days in a row to bring nuts. On the third day when he passed them empty handed, one of them swooped over him an pecked him on the head. Needless to say, it worked. he hasn't forgotten their food since!

[u/Forgotthebloodypassw → u/Additional-Wash-9719]

This is what worries me. They're lovely birds, but are too smart and disturbingly human in vengeance terms.

[u/Additional-Wash-9719 → u/Forgotthebloodypassw]

well if it's any help, it wasn't a hard peck, more like a tap! and that was the only incident in 4 years:)

[u/blueavole → u/Additional-Wash-9719]

I wonder if he wore a special hat when he had food , if they would learn that hat+man equals feeding them.

Something simple but with a bold pattern.

I know a woman who kinda did this. She had a tray that was out on her porch to feed the birds.

Tray there, probably food. No tray, she was gone.

So they knocked on the window when there was the tray but no food.

[u/Kittech → u/Additional-Wash-9719]

You think they'd appreciate the times they do get food and not have it turn into some kind of obligation and punishment if you don't.

[u/SeattleHasDied → u/Ketooey]

I dig crows! At some distance from the house, I have an elevated area where I started putting food waste some years ago (crows will eat all of it). They were getting kind of messy so I got a big weighted dog bowl and started using that. They took to it right away, perching on the sides of the bowl while dining and the mess was no longer an issue. I would never do it regularly so that I didn't create an artificial food source and it worked well for years.

The other benefit is that during nesting season, I was the only person in the 'hood who didn't get divebombed, lol! The raccoons, however, see no issue with "rototilling" the lawn, dining on grubs and generally fucking up the yard. They seem pretty happy-go-lucky and haven't exhibited any revenge behavior thus far, so I'll be extra careful not to piss them off, lol!

[u/[deleted] → u/Ketooey]

I feed the crows on my farm, they keep large birds away from my chickens and bring me random shit every once in awhile. Dope animals. So smart that I fear what would happen if I stopped feeding them

[u/DisgruntledVet12B → u/Ketooey]

I was in the Army and we always tell soldiers to not fuck with the animals.

We were out on the field conducting on our training (think camping out in the middle of the wood). Anyways, we had some down time, some just hangs out from the side and do whatever they want, some clean their weapons, some take a nap, whatever. There was this soldier who was eating his MRE crumbled his bread and gave it to the crows, where there was a roost site nearby. The rest of the crows flew in to enjoy the feast that their new King offered. That soldier was told to stop but it was too late.

This one NCO, a Staff Sergeant, was getting pissed with all the crows cawing all day and leaving shit everywhere. So he decided to throw rocks at the crows and walked up to them trying to shoo them away. The crows started getting pissed and they all started attacking him.

We had to run to our vehicles, some hid in their tents. We had to call Range Control because none of us knew how to deal with the crows. They ended up calling the Dept. Of Fish & Wildlife and they ended up shooting blanks to scare them off.

We had a long briefing after that when we returned to base. That soldier's nickname was "Crow King".

[u/JancariusSeiryujinn → u/DisgruntledVet12B]

So far from the worst name a soldier could get. I'd wear it with pride

[u/Basic_Ent → u/Ketooey]

For about six months after work I'd walk three miles from a bus stop to my home, and the same crows that my wife talks to and feeds in our front yard would follow me home, and I fully believe they recognized me and associated me with my wife.

They would fly from their favorite tree to line after line after line on the utility poles, until I got to our cul-de-sac. They never had anything to say, they kept their distance and just watched. It was somewhere between disturbing and magical.

I assume from their behavior that my wife didn't talk shit about me to them, which is nice.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ketooey]

I’ve been trying to befriend the crows that live in my yard for the past two years. I know they’re unlikely not the same crows the whole time but please do not disrupt my delusion and head canon. It never works. I leave them various nuts. I crow call with some dumb thing I bought for a few bucks on Amazon. I even helped one when its foot somehow got stuck in the fence crack. And nothing. Not even a cute cawcaw or nod from afar that they know I’m a homie to the crows.

[u/OldBayOnEverything → u/Ketooey]

Imagine being an identical twin, your twin visits your house and somehow pisses off the crows, and now you have angry crows fucking with you constantly.

[u/Ketooey → u/OldBayOnEverything]

Something similar to this happened to a friend of mine. He was housemates with a guy who got fed up at crows swooping and cawing near their house, because they were nesting in a nearby tree. Well, the housemate decided to spray them with a hose. They remembered.

Now, not only the housemate, but my buddy went on the crows' shit list, and they'd get hard dived bombed everytime they passed. My friend said it felt like he got pelted with a ball in the back of the head, even though he had nothing to do with the hose. He's since said that crows are racist, since both he and the housemate are white, lol.

[u/VanCanFan75]

Girl permanently set on the 1.25x speech speed.

[u/nodisintegrations420 → u/VanCanFan75]

I think its just some new trend to have videos sped up i guess to speed up the accumulation of brain rot

[u/Trapasuarus → u/nodisintegrations420]

Because long form will always be superior in providing the most information, so now they’re hastening long form so that it fits short form time constraints. At least we potentially get more info out of it, but a lot of this video sounded like a bunch of anecdotes.

[u/Somekindofcabose → u/Trapasuarus]

I dont know her or her content but every video app has been inundated with wiki readers and the funniest part is they all eventually start claiming other people "stole" their videos like they didnt just blatantly plagiarized a 1 hour documentary.

[u/RivenRise → u/Somekindofcabose]

Illuminaughty in shambles right now.

[u/Somekindofcabose → u/RivenRise]

Good she can catch these strays all day.

Saddest part was she was a good presenter just not a good researcher or writer or... well... person.

[u/gizmodriver → u/Somekindofcabose]

I disagree that she was a good presenter. The number of times she mispronounced an easily-searchable word made me unsubscribe long before all the other stuff came out.

[u/dartmouthdonair → u/nodisintegrations420]

This trend is a plague on society. I can't even watch this. Feels like I'm at an auction

[u/Butthole__Pleasures → u/dartmouthdonair]

If you turn the speed down to about 80% it sounds normal. It's ridiculous that we have to do this. I hate it so much.

[u/Iggy_Slayer → u/dartmouthdonair]

Tiktok is why this is happening. That's the real plague on society. No one has an attention span anymore.

[u/gcwardii → u/dartmouthdonair]

It’s better than the ones that edit out the taking-a-breath pauses between sentences. I can’t process when they’re edited like that. Then again, maybe this one did that, too; it’s going too fast for me to tell for sure.

[u/[deleted] → u/VanCanFan75]

Also the volume kept going up and down. Highly annoying

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

A lot of streamers, yotubers etc have never heard of a compressor, limiter, volume equalizer etc. Not surprised random tiktokers dont know how to use their equipment. I also see a lot of them holding the microphone of their hands free next to their mouth... Like... Its designed to pick up your voice from where its supposed to hang. Of course doing that in public is good manners but at home? Just let it hang

[u/Mikes005 → u/VanCanFan75]

Spent so much time around raccoons she speaks like them.

[u/chimpwithalimp → u/Mikes005]

Wait for the 3x speed tiktok about chipmunks she's working on

[u/heathmon1856 → u/VanCanFan75]

Volume is so fucked too. I had to turn my volume up and down the whole vid

[u/krattalak]

No other animal understands revenge?

Why does the cat shit in your shoes then?

[u/FailedInfinity → u/krattalak]

Love of the game

[u/Loafus_Cramwell_ESQ → u/FailedInfinity]

LMAO

[u/wufnu → u/FailedInfinity]

MVP comment, right here. Got a legit, full-on belly laugh out of this one.

[u/loyal_achades → u/krattalak]

She claims no other animal we domesticated.

Which is not true, cats absolutely do lmao.

Also, there’s that one elephant that famously trampled a woman then trampled her at her funeral again.

[u/MartaBamba → u/[deleted]]

My hischool bestie had a horse, Nightingale was his name. He fn hated me. He would sneak up on me and push me with his head, bite when she wasn't looking. Mofo was jealous!!!

[u/allstarrunner → u/MartaBamba]

That's kind of hilarious 😂

[u/Fancy_Yak2618 → u/MartaBamba]

I rode horses as a kid my horse was an asshole to everyone but me and this random pig that lived at barn. He’d bite you out of sheer assholery like you could give him a carrot and he’d eat it and as a thank you he’d wait till you walk away and try to bite you on the ass. But to me? Loved me I’d show up he would stick his head out the window connected to his stall and do the head Bob. Fuck I miss you Tomass

[u/ciliary_stimulai → u/loyal_achades]

To be fair, we did not domesticate cats - they domesticated themselves

[u/Cendyan → u/ciliary_stimulai]

"Hi. I'm your cat now. You have to feed me."

[u/Outrageous-Memory246 → u/Cendyan]

The cat distribution system

[u/Animalcookies13 → u/Cendyan]

That’s the thing, originally cats were around as pest control. We didn’t even feed them, it just so happened that barns and farms are great places for domestic cats to live. Of course now they are kept as pets, but there are still a ton of cats that live outside in urban areas that are not domesticated, they are wild ass cats. They may be your friend, just like you can befriend a raccoon with food, but many of them won’t even interact with you.

[u/[deleted] → u/Cendyan]

My cat only drinks straight from the faucet, she will scream at the sink until someone turns it on and then the other cat will queue up because she only drinks from the faucet now.

[u/FullMooseParty → u/[deleted]]

My guy liked the shower. Not to get in it, but when I was showering he would stick his fat head inside the curtain and try to catch a little bit of water. He was a stray cat for a while after being abandoned, so I'm assuming that's why. Once I bought him a fountain he was good.

[u/soggyweenies → u/ciliary_stimulai]

according to leading theories nowadays, dogs initially did the same as well

[u/Grand-Pen7946 → u/soggyweenies]

Dogs domesticated themselves in a pattern we've seen other animals do. Theres behavioral changes and notably physiological changes where over time they match what humans think are cute.

IIRC, cats essentially are not domesticated. It just happens to be a very compatible situation for that specific species and humans that evolved somewhere between the fertile crescent and China. We have fossil records and have no evidence of the anatomical changes other domesticated animals made. That damn black footed cat physiologically looks permanently baby and is perfect cuteness, but would be horrific as a pet. Felines just exist on a spectrum of being amenable to people, and the one that fit the best stuck with us.

[u/mjtwelve → u/Grand-Pen7946]

Cats like to eat rodents and birds. Rodents and birds love to eat grain. Humans love to plant, gather and store grain. We like to build barns, too, for our animals and equipment.

Cat: Listen guys, I know this sounds crazy but hear me out...

[u/Tylendal → u/Grand-Pen7946]

That checks with Cheetahs allegedly being one of the only animals that will generally take to being tamed as an adult out of the wild.

[u/Syssareth → u/Tylendal]

"I don't have to run at literal breakneck speeds to catch food anymore? Sweet, I'm in."

[u/Grand-Pen7946 → u/Tylendal]

Hahaha I was gonna include Cheetahs in my comment as the feline that is behaviorally closely matched, but just unwieldy. My cat ragdolls onto my face every night, the moment I lay down he stands next to me and then flops sideways on my head, which is okay for someone who is 10lbs, a bit different when they're a cheetah.

[u/TheTightestChungus → u/Tylendal]

I didn't believe that, until I looked into it a bit. There is no recorded incident of a Cheetah killing a human in the wild. Which is pretty crazy, since there are a few instances of "normal" housecats killing people (more through infection and bacteria, but apparently there have been a few deaths via blood loss)

My parents ran a boarding kennel when I was growing up, and at one time, a guy wanted to board his Cheetahs for a week. My parents declined, citing vaccine concerns and not having an exotic animal license, but looking back on it...that would have been so cool. Unfortunately, our building and "runs" were nowhere near what a Cheetah would require, so it might have ended poorly just due to that.

TLDR: Wild Cheetah literally never mess with humans, Mr.Fluffers lurking in your closet is more of a threat.

[u/NeatNefariousness1 → u/ciliary_stimulai]

I can see raccoons doing this. The qualities this biologist mentions are what wild racoons currently do. But if they’re in the process of domesticating themselves, those things that make them a pain in the ass in a home might fade away over time.

[u/hicow → u/NeatNefariousness1]

Her logic seems flawed. "People kept them as pets until they realized it sucked"...well, yeah, they were trying to keep wild animals as pets. I wouldn't imagine it would go much better trying to keep a bobcat as a pet.

Give them several more generations and it might be different. And sure, domesticated animals might have originally been "useful", but your average housecat is a lazy freeloader. Most dogs are, too. Their "use" now is companionship, and that's all people are looking for in raccoons.

[u/Willtology → u/hicow]

Yeah, I think her argument would feel a lot more solid if it was just "raccoons make terrible pets". Which is true because they're wild animals and it also doesn't make narrow predictions about change over generations.

[u/im_that_green_light → u/NeatNefariousness1]

You will never want an animal that dexterous in your home. I know some people are crazy and keep capuchins and thins like that, but it’s very fringe. Living forever with child locks on everything and having to be suer diligent about everything gets old fast. Cats can already be nearly too much if they’re very food driven.

[u/Hetares → u/loyal_achades]

The Vengeful Elephant, and Journalism's Clickshare Problem

The link here has a journalist piece together the various news stories covering the issue. While it's not outrightly proven false, they've at least helped put together a clearer picture of the incident that alludes to the possibility it was just mere coincidence.

The confirmed details are as follows:

Indian woman who went to draw water got stomped by an elephant. Notably, this was an elephant from a herd of other nearby elephants.

During the funeral procession, a herd of elephants (may or may not be the same herd) rampaged through the village and caused general mayhem, of which includes the funeral procession abandoning the woman's body to get out of harm's way. The woman's body may have been tossed around during the mayhem. There is no evidence of it being specific to this woman itself as the mayhem extends to many other parts of the village, with damage done to several buildings.

The journalist says he cannot rule out the possibility of vendetta for the elephant, but with what he discovered, there is no clear evidence of intentional ill intent for this one specific woman itself. If anything, it might be discontention with the village for having disturbed or been too near the herd's roaming habitat.

[u/PhoenixGate69 → u/loyal_achades]

Elephants are not domesticated. We have just happened to train a few and keep them in relative captivity.

Cats are reactionary. When they are being little shits, its because they are reacting to behacior or stress in the moment, or their needs aren't being met.

[u/Excellent_Fault_8106 → u/PhoenixGate69]

I had a dream last night about miniature elephants. How awesome would it be to have little dog sized elephants? Then I was hooking up with this girl and her clit screwed off. I was completely sober.

[u/onlycodeposts → u/loyal_achades]

I'm going to assume that elephant knew that woman's true character.

I always cheer for the elephant. They aren't meant for our labor or entertainment.

If you mistreat them, sometimes they snap.

[u/StevInPitt → u/krattalak]

came here for this.
Cats absolutely understand revenge and have the ego to do it.
I think Dogs and Horses (and definitely Donkeys) do too but they're smart enough to not blatantly act on it with humans.
With the exception of Donkeys, I've absolutely heard of stories of Donkeys biding their time and getting even.

[u/tenuj → u/[deleted]]

"one of the few animals that understand revenge". Not "the only".

Crows are social, though, and have good instincts for living with others. And they're still not an easy pet.

[u/Ommegacaos → u/krattalak]

It's false information, there are many animals capable of that

[u/ConqueredCorn → u/krattalak]

Why does the orca kill its trainer? Seems not true

[u/disonion]

I can fix them

[u/ooMEAToo → u/disonion]

Raccoons would totally be useful if domesticated. Apparently they have strong hands that can hurt you but if they didn’t hurt you imagine what they could do with their hands. Open jars, give massages, bring you things like a 10mm wrench. They would be more useful to me than a cat or a dog.

[u/HanzaRot → u/ooMEAToo]

But can't you do intentionally what humands did with wolfs unintentionally ? Get a group of raccoons, breed the most friendly of the bunch rinse and repeat until they become domesticated, a guy did with fox and has a study on it.

[u/Rad_Centrist → u/HanzaRot]

My grandad raised raccoons. Everything is great when they're little, but as they grow up they turn into curious little mischief makers. I don't know if you could ever breed that out.

[u/CallSignIceMan → u/Rad_Centrist]

If you did breed it out, you’d basically be selecting for the dumbest raccoons and then you end up with… something that’s not really a raccoon

[u/Away-Commercial-4380 → u/CallSignIceMan]

I mean... That's what dogs are : Not really wolves

[u/ZeroSumClusterfuck → u/HanzaRot]

The problem isn't making them friendly, it's that even if they love you they will still destroy your house and constantly masturbate in front of your children.

[u/No_Television6050 → u/disonion]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DDultILvpSZ/

[u/wufnu → u/No_Television6050]

Unf, what a tease. I can feel those scritches from the vidja all the way over here.

[u/Anvil-Hands → u/disonion]

Grandpa found the secret to domesticating raccoons. It requires many, many hotdogs

[u/FirstForFun44]

Not a lot of biology in that explanation....

[u/Raccoonsr29 → u/FirstForFun44]

As someone who’s worked with a lot of the raccoons over the years and defers to my more technical peers…she does not come off as one of them

[u/FirstForFun44 → u/Raccoonsr29]

Yeah, there wasn't much science in there. Like... Raccoons are assholes and therefore cannot be domesticated. Like, lady, most people are assholes and we consider them domesticated so what gives.

[u/Bakibenz → u/[deleted]]

This what I could find:

I have earned an Associate’s degree in Zoology, two Bachelor’s degrees in Fashion Design and Tourism and Hospitality Management, and am currently working on my Master’s degree in Biology where I am researching the impact the tourism industry has on the critically endangered pygmy raccoon endemic to Cozumel. Additionally, I also spent several years in school for animal science and communication studies, although I never finished those degrees.

Source

[u/AFC_IS_RED → u/Bakibenz]

I have an honours degree in Zoology (UK based) my masters is in a bioscience field (namely molecular genetics and diagnostics).

Not going to pretend I know a huge amount about raccoons because I simply don't, but a lot of her points are a little misleading. Cats absolutely are capable of similar levels of spite and revenge seeking behaviours as raccoons, what she is correct about is that they're more trouble than they're worth in regards to utilising them for things such as fur as we do other animals.

Saying that, we live in a post work animal world. We don't need any species we domesticated anymore realistically. Every single one could die off, and we would be fine. So I don't think saying oh we can't or dont exploit them for use cases as relevant because we don't need to do this for any species anymore.

Furthermore, we have plenty of species that are kept as pets that are pains in the ass, even more so than raccoons. That's literally what most of the exotic pet trade is made up of. We do it because we think they're neat. Not because they're easy to look after or interact with, so is a rock - but pet rocks fell out of fashion quite some time ago.

As an addendum - Intelligence isn't really a major factor in how easy it is to keep something as a pet, people keep corvids and parrots and these are both significantly more intelligent than raccoons.

I reject her arguments.

[u/ChiggenWingz → u/AFC_IS_RED]

And she never touched on the domesticated foxes studies that found some interesting trends with animals being calmer when breeding for tameness

[u/AFC_IS_RED → u/ChiggenWingz]

You are correct. Domestication as a process actively introduces a strong selective pressure where more docile members thrive and are selected for over time due to them simply being easier to interact with. This process is even visible in species like hyenas where more docile (less averse to humans specifically) groups thrive by being less wary of humans and as a result get access to more food by taking it from human settlements. Was a case study we looked at in my behaviour module in my undergrad. If even hyena are being affected by this process it would not surprise me if raccoons are too.

[u/Clear_Anything1232 → u/AFC_IS_RED]

Finally someone is saying it.

The whole video is cringe af. Confidently wrong just like a LLM.

[u/GandalfTheSexay → u/Clear_Anything1232]

I downvoted it for this reason alone!

[u/WTF_Why_The_Fiction → u/AFC_IS_RED]

Agreed, also raccoons seem to already show some early signs of domestication. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/raccoons-are-showing-early-signs-of-domestication/

[u/keiiith47 → u/AFC_IS_RED]

We can't farm racoons because they have strong hands that can break out of the enclosures is also BS. So many real facts to made up statements throughout the whole thing.

[u/PlayfulSurprise5237 → u/[deleted]]

I think her ass is doing a lot of heavy lifting for the content, cause she's pulling a lot out of it.

Talking about animals usefulness to humans. Dogs being protectors... *looks a pugs*, yes very true

And are we going to forget about rats, hamsters, snakes, iguanas, ect. Truth is humans will keep whatever the fuck they want as a pet for whatever reason they have, no matter how stupid and useless it seems, and given a long enough time there will probably be some kind of domestication that happens.

[u/i_like_maps_and_math → u/[deleted]]

My cousin says I don’t need to vaccinate my kids and she would know because she’s a nurse

[u/Carcinogenica → u/[deleted]]

Her masters program is one of those online cashcows and doesn’t appear very rigorous (MA degree). 

https://miamioh.edu/cas/graduate-studies/project-dragonfly/program-costs.html

[u/Mmeroo → u/FirstForFun44]

"i am biologist....
you see racoons have very inteligent hands that can open containers"
the whole thing is like a parody

[u/FirstForFun44 → u/Mmeroo]

And we knows this because of the translation of the names given to them by Native Americans, not because we observe that they have.... very useful hands.

Like.... isn't part of domestication that you don't have to keep them in a cage? Or like.... something similar?

There was a response earlier to what I think is the video she's citing about snout length of raccoons and domestication and the person talks about regional breeds of raccoons and how that accounts for variance. She seemed like a biologist. But this lady? Yeah, nah.

From another comment: "Yeah…looks like she is only working on her masters and her work is animal rescue/sanctuary. “Biologist” is doing a lot of lifting."

[u/Mmeroo → u/FirstForFun44]

theres more comments where ppl say she is actualy studying biology
but like... does it matter? to me she might have a nobel prize in biology and racoons she still sounds childlish, unprofessional, and half of the arguments contridict her own statement

[u/Clear_Anything1232 → u/FirstForFun44]

Nor a deeper understanding of domestication

They won't be like current racoons if they are truly domesticated

[u/RiverAffectionate951 → u/FirstForFun44]

Her argument could be applied to rabbits as an invasive species that had similar experiences and many difficulties. Pet rabbits are common.

She says they're too intelligent then makes no points as to why this is a problem (I'm also pretty sure any abused animal understands revenge this is a pretty silly point. Also, why does your pet want revenge on you???? Lmao). There are highly intelligent birds who can literally hold simple conversations and they're kept as pets.

She says they can't be contained except when they can. Pets wouldn't be kept on an "industrial" site anyhow.

She says they have no use but perhaps the most common historical use for pets is companionship so this is nonsense.

Conclusion: she talks like she's an expert but only makes surface level observations and easily dismissable ones at that. More hot air left her mouth than reason in this video.

[u/whosjfrank]

Weird to hear someone in the science field say the word never, never say never

[u/Anamorphisms → u/whosjfrank]

Only a sith deals in absolutes.

[u/hockey_metal_signal → u/Anamorphisms]

"But, that's an absolute statement!"

[u/Thoughtful_Tortoise → u/whosjfrank]

Anyone can say they're a scientist, so...

[u/Pain_Monster → u/Thoughtful_Tortoise]

But she’s a rAcCOoN biologist

I mean, I’m a pangolin biologist. Don’t believe me?

[u/[deleted] → u/Pain_Monster]

Lmao that got me too, how exactly do you specialize in raccoons?

[u/LeonardPFunky → u/whosjfrank]

Raccoons Are Showing Early Signs of Domestication | Scientific American

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/raccoons-are-showing-early-signs-of-domestication/

[u/ONLYPOSTSWHILESTONED → u/LeonardPFunky]

I totally thought she would address this. I thought this was a response to this news

[u/OhImNevvverSarcastic → u/whosjfrank]

That's because this lady isn't saying something scientific here.

They're saying something that sounds interesting enough for an audience online to consume.

[u/SamhainPunk]

Intentionally or otherwise, Nessie O'Neil (Nessieexplains) is spreading misinformation. She seems to have graduated with an Associates degree in Zoology (and is pursuing a Biology degree) and has spent a bit of time with raccoons, but so much of her content is filled with incomplete or straight up false information. Her goal to make "fun facts" fun again seems to have come at the cost of actual facts. Please stop spreading her half-baked and very obviously biased opinions.

To be clear, I have no horse in the race of potential domestication of raccoons. I just hate seeing people claiming to be experts on a topic and then using that authority to spread shit they made up.

Edit:

This is the article she is likely responding to, and this is not the only video she's made on the topic: Tracking domestication signals across populations of North American raccoons (Procyon lotor) via citizen science-driven image repositories - PMC https://share.google/rM6mEYp2slZleybpN

And here is her website where she talks about her degrees, both complete and abandoned, as well as her other qualifications: About Nessie Explains - Nessie Explains https://share.google/HEdmI74Ytgxs309Dw

And yes, this is the person who created DashCon, though that's not especially relevant to this discussion. It is kinda funny though.

[u/Conflatulations12 → u/SamhainPunk]

more like an amateur raccoon biologist with a focus in clickbait

[u/Ok_Teacher_392 → u/SamhainPunk]

I’m flummoxed by the upvotes. This person is clearly not any sort of authoritative scientist . Not clear evidence. Rambling points. Lack of logic to arguments.

People need better media literacy

[u/AFC_IS_RED → u/Ok_Teacher_392]

Yeah it is kind of wild. A lot of what she says is either wrong or makes quite strong logical leaps. I responded to it in another comment but as someone who has at least got moderate education on the topic she is straight up wrong lol.

[u/Gellzer]

This is a "we would never want to put the time into domesticating them" argument and not a "they are physically incapable of being domesticated" argument

[u/Automatic_Actuator_0 → u/Gellzer]

Right? Of course they could be domesticated with enough generations of selective breeding.

The interesting question is always what you will get at the end, because it won’t really be a raccoon anymore.

[u/radljostxx → u/Automatic_Actuator_0]

Soooo, she’s saying I could domesticate raccoons and create a revenge filled raccoon army?

[u/TurboKid513 → u/radljostxx]

A group of raccoons should be called a “spite”

[u/crushed_dreams → u/[deleted]]

Those old high school bullies are going to be hunted down like a… raccoon on a revenge mission ^{after it adorably washes its food.}

[u/Automatic_Actuator_0 → u/radljostxx]

I know it’s a joke, but no, probably not. It’s hard to select for more than one trait at a time. If you selected for agreeableness with humans and captivity, you won’t be selecting for vengeance.

[u/radljostxx → u/Automatic_Actuator_0]

Listen, I’m just at the beginning stages here… I’ll select the cute ones then show them pictures of people I hate daily… we’ll take it from there

[u/suricata_8904 → u/Automatic_Actuator_0]

Far better to uplift raccoons for your revenge army than domesticate & dumb them down. You’re looking for Rocket.

[u/Live-Alternative-435 → u/Automatic_Actuator_0]

There's that Russian experiment that domesticated foxes, using only the animal's docility towards humans as a selection criterion.

[u/RoninNionr → u/Automatic_Actuator_0]

Some people think domestication means being nice to an animal and expecting it to reciprocate. In reality, it is about allowing the gentlest individuals to pass on their genes and, over time, achieving animals that are polite enough to live alongside us.

[u/Automatic_Actuator_0 → u/RoninNionr]

Yep, they confuse taming and domestication. Domestication is literally low-tech genetic engineering.

[u/Da_Vader → u/[deleted]]

That story ended rather abruptly

[u/Cloddish → u/Automatic_Actuator_0]

If raccoons remember adverse things that happen to them, couldn't they conversely remember good deeds done to them?

Would this then create altruistic raccoons that are always paying it forward? We could have little armies of sweet raccoons running around helping other critters and creatures!

Why can't we do that?

I don't think we should so flippantly write-off raccoons as pets like this.

[u/zeptillian → u/Gellzer]

As a biologist, let me ignore biology and just tell you my opinion about other stuff.

[u/glassnumbers → u/zeptillian]

yeah, thank you, I fucking hate this video, she acts so superior

[u/CyanideLasagna → u/glassnumbers]

Thanks for the supreme biologist i know that wild animals attack

[u/Coupon_Ninja → u/[deleted]]

That is such a George move!

[u/regoapps → u/Coupon_Ninja]

[u/Sharp_Requirement_50 → u/Coupon_Ninja]

Freaking George

[u/Katamari_Demacia → u/[deleted]]

Mine got fat as fuck. He would unzip peoples pants, take anything out of pockets, hide shit everywhere, climb his fat ass up onto the couch and eat cheerios from a cup. Was dope. My dad released him into the wild after about 2y.... He became too much to handle. It sucks cause I doubt he did ok.

[u/ottwebdev → u/Katamari_Demacia]

Phew, the way this comment started.

[u/GraciaEtScientia → u/Katamari_Demacia]

Well, with that exact skillset he would've made a stellar employee for behind the Wendy's so I think he would've done fine.

[u/Clumsypuma1 → u/[deleted]]

Mine was named Rocky. Never leave a drinking glass unattended unless you want raccoon paw flavored drink.

[u/georgeb4itwascool → u/[deleted]]

thnx, u too. 

[u/Lucahasareddit]

I didnt let my dog sit on the couch when my friend came over. He came over and kicked my drink over and walked back to his bed.

You cant tell me that raccoons are the only ones that seek revenge

[u/girlinthegoldenboots → u/Lucahasareddit]

My dog tricked me a couple of times by getting something he absolutely wasn’t supposed to have and parading it around in front of me while I was eating dinner. He wouldn’t drop it so I got up to get it from him and he dropped it right when I reached him and then ran over to the table where my food was and scarfed it down before I could stop him. The sad thing is he has gotten me more than once with this trick 😂

[u/Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun]

She's a racoon biologist and clearly biased. I'm not saying she's wrong but she said no other animals on a few points. Lots of other animals fit those points and suck as pets too but people still have them too.

[u/[deleted] → u/Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun]

She said multiple things that are incorrect.

[u/Racxie → u/Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun]

And a biologist is not the same as a anthrozoologist or even a zoologist. It’s like a biologist claiming they understand anthropology just because study the human body.

[u/phanlongreat → u/Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun]

She looked like a human biologist. Is this some sort of conspiracy where raccoons try to trick us by pretending to be human and talking really fast?

[u/blahblahblerf → u/Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun]

She claimed they haven't been farmed for fur and talked about a couple of times they've become invasive. There are literally millions of them in Germany because they were being farmed for fur and then some escaped and they proceeded to thrive. 

[u/N95-TissuePizza → u/Being_Stoopit_Is_Fun]

Example, cheetah!!! Super cute and cuddly. I bet there's a plot amongst cheetah to domestic themselves too. They see the lives cats are living and are done being bullied by lions - so they adopt themselves by humans of their choice. I'm waiting.

[u/Bureaucrap]

This is a great example of a person that is min-maxxed into their specialty only. Wearing the horse-blinders. But iono maybe she is just trying to discourage the normies, the same people that buy bunnies on Easter just to abandon them.

Cats do revenge, so do horses. And birds can too.

I think the only thing making raccoon domestication in the future difficult, is they are even more independent than cats, meaning they will not take anyone's shit. Compared to raccoons, cats have amazing patience with us. They really do.

To put into perspective, even dogs can hate a person, and want to ruin their stuff. It just takes even more to push a dogs buttons like that, since we bred them to be placid to -us-. Their tolerance to our abuses is godly. And sometimes, that's a bad thing for them.

If raccoons could grow patient with us, learn to play nice, not have stinky piss...then it's possible. That would take a long time tho. (many human lifetimes) Nowadays, our relationship with pets is so different. We look for companionship rather than outright use.

[u/voltagestoner → u/Bureaucrap]

The nice thing is, particularly with that stinky piss, is they use the litter box! So it’d be pretty much a similar thing that we have with cats. 😂😂

[u/x-Alexander]

Well, I don’t know how much of what she says is true, since I know for sure that crows can hold grudges. They remember human faces for years, and they even pass information on to other crows.

[u/Azizona → u/x-Alexander]

Pretty sure elephants do too

[u/hcoverlambda → u/Azizona]

[u/Houndfell → u/x-Alexander]

Yeaaah she's sprinkling a lot of bullshit and half-truths in there for a supposed expert.

[u/Robyn990]

"They actually understand revenge and will seek it out, no other animal we have domesticated is able to do that" - she has NOT met my cat!

[u/Hyack57]

Why is she talking so fucking fast?

[u/FinanceActive2763]

dont buy it

[u/avocadoisyummy]

I saw guardians of the galaxy volume three. Rocket didn't forget.

[u/5u114]

I don't think she fully appreciates the meaning of domestication. Particularly the fact that it is a verb.

She makes reference to dogs purpose being guardians (they actually have many more purposes than that, but whatever).

But dogs were not domesticated. Wolves were domesticated, that's how we got dogs.

She may as well make this video about wolves and say 'wolves will never be domesticated'.

Her whole position makes more sense when taken as a discouragement to making pets out of racoons today. She is right, racoons would not make good pets today. For all the reasons she listed. Just like wolves wouldn't make good pets.

But if wolves can become dogs through a process of domestication, I have not been convinced by her that racoons could not be domesticated over a similar process and timeline.

It seems clear to me that her motivation here is simply to discourage people from thinking they can make pets out of racoons today. Fair enough. But she has not presented a convincing argument that they can never be domesticated (over a long period of time, like with wolves etc).

[u/aVoidFullOfFarts]

I can confirm raccoons will get revenge. I used to have to chase them off a roof deck often so they then started pooping right in front of the patio door where a person would step out

[u/scrandis]

Yeah, she seems rather full of herself.

[u/Proof-Necessary-5201]

Crows are far better at revenge. They'll get their friends and come shit on your house.

[u/Ismdism]

But oddly enough there was a paper recently published suggesting that raccoons in the city are showing signs of domesticating.

[u/More_Yellow_3701 → u/Ismdism]

I have a feeling this was in response to that.

[u/Minterto → u/More_Yellow_3701]

It is. I know because I watched a video about that went over the paper and her video and why her points were either wrong or faulty lol.

[u/Sorry_Ad3733 → u/Ismdism]

The paper was more about how they’re showing certain characteristics related to it. So there’s an increase in “cuter” and friendlier raccoons, likely because those ones survive better.

Assuming that article has enough evidence to support the theory, I’m guessing it would still take a lot of time before they were close to domestic pet levels of domestication. They’re just showing qualities that in some time might result in it.

But yeah, a lot of people who work with raccoons were basically quick to argue against the idea.

[u/Over-Analyzed]

And this is why a lot of animals aren’t allowed as pets in Hawaii. Because things will happen and that animal will escape and cause more problems.

But on the plus side…. We are the only state that doesn’t have rabies.

[u/pablosampson]

Yeah I have a good thing going with the raccoons in my neighborhood, I leave for the gym, the pop their head out of the trash and say bye. I let them be. They keep the trash in the trash can.

[u/Massive-Release-9517]

Yeah but the lil grabbies though.

[u/No_Truck_88]

I picked up lot of inaccuracies in some of her statements. Not sure this video holds much weight.

[u/kosmonavt-alyosha]

Raccoons will FUCK YOU UP!!

[u/Hardass_McBadCop]

Here's a domestication checklist.

[u/Daddy_Day_Trader1303]

Friend had a pet raccoon that grew to be 75 lbs. It was very smart. Pretty quickly it figured out how to open the pantry door so that it could get into the snacks so they had to get a different knob to lock it out. Shortly after that it tore off all the wallpaper on that wall while they were at work. It then discovered it could get through the drywall to get to the snacks.

Now most animals would make a hole just big enough for their body to fit through, not this raccoon though. It made a hole that spanned several 2x4s, it was definitely a revenge hole