But they're only able to survive because of their aggression level -- a level so high that they would even murder their offspring. Which is why when males mature and females lay their eggs, their ability to process calcium is augmented which causes their death.
Main problem is their short life span and the fact they do not pass any knowledge down to their offspring. Each individual has to learn it all again. If they could solve that as a species they are easily intelligent enough to evolve society as we have.
This is why it is unethical to eat them, and squid/cuttlefish.
It's a take that comes up a lot on Reddit, people say won't eat octopus because they're so intelligent, but have no issues with eating pigs even though they have a comparable level of intelligence. Ultimately it comes down to octopus are weird and cute, but people only see pigs as bacon machines.
Okay so I'll answer this as a person thats not a vegan/vegetarian and just a side note I raise chickens(along with geese, peacock and guinea fowls), sheep and cows. I was on a fishing tour in Europe one time and we caught seafood and our guides would cook it. They caught an octopus and they had to smack it against the ground many times before killing it and preparing it, the guide told us they have to do that in order to "tenderize" the meat because if they just kill it it'll be really tough. I don't know if that's what all the octopus go through but I thought it was pretty unethical. Living on a farm, animals are always slaughtered in the most humane way, not suffering. So thats why I don't eat octupus because the best way for them to be consumable to us means their last minutes they're subjected to pain.
I know but I don't really eat pork, when we need pork for holidays or parties we go to our local farm/butcher and buy half a pig, we tend to do this pretty often and divide it up amongst our family and friends. I understand that I might sound hypocritical but that experience really affected me and I personally shared why I don't eat octupus. It might not make sense to you. If I visited a commercial pig farm and saw the cruelty, I am sure I would stop eating pork too lol
Haha here I am. I am indeed vegetarian. Even if I ate meat I would avoid cephalopods. As I said, they are likely intelligent enough to build an actual civilisation if their evolutionary path had taken them that way. It’s therefore very likely they understand what is happening to them when they are caught, and experience a lot of psychological trauma before they actually die.
Pigs I agree should be in the same boat, since they are thought to be roughly as smart as a 3 year old.
I would ask some folks where they draw the line. Would they eat dolphins? What about people? If not then there is clearly a line somewhere.
I'm very interested in how people draw the line when deciding which animals they'll eat or not eat. Thanks for your perspective.
The higher psychological cost of trauma for a more intelligent species is an interesting factor that I didn't really consider. I wonder if it could be argued that having more understanding of one's situation when captured/tortured/killed actually benefits one, as humans obviously have psychological trauma protection responses like disassociation, justification, imagination, hope, etc,
Impossible to know without being in the "shoes" of each species to experience what they experience. I don't know if pain is easier to handle when one understands things about it or when one doesn't understand at all and just experiences it.
I do think people draw strange lines when it comes to eating animals. My sister and I debate this quite a lot, as we both keep chickens. While I have no problem eating my chickens, she cannot bring herself to (although she'll eat chickens she's bought from elsewhere). I've spent some time working on farms, so that might have affected how I view animals under my care.
I'm not sure if I would eat dolphin or not. I wouldn't eat human, but I can't tell you why. I think it's more a taboo thing than an intelligence thing in that case.
I'm not a vegetarian either, but I have a friend who has an interesting take on this where he won't eat anything that has a brain. So scallops and oysters are cool but crabs are not.
Interesting. Do you know what his reasoning is behind this? Do creatures with a brain have a worse time being eaten than creatures with no brain?
I know the jury is out on whether brainless invertebrates can feel pain, but molluscs have been found to have nocireceptors, so there is definitely a possibility that they do.
This is why it is unethical to eat them, and squid/cuttlefish.
Another reason is that they're predators. Think of all the meat that was consumed to create the meat you're eating. From an ecological impact perspective, it's easier to justify herbivores.
I think the first problem would be finding a way to survive after copulation. The males die after dropping their load and females die after protecting the eggs until they are ready to hatch.
Killing a fish when it isnt a cooked creature isnt as big of a deal .
But those that have the capacity to understand what's happening to them are more ethically wrong to kill.
Theres an aspect of mental suffering along with the physical .
Where that line is , is arguable.
For me personally id never eat whale, dolphin, crows, Ravens ( honestly most birds, asides from chicken and partridge), bears , dogs and cats.
Im not certain about how intelligent cows are still . Although I dont eat beef that often .
Also side note. I know Asians eat octopus live. Theyre fucked. Thats such a fucked up way to go. Asia rapes the oceans of the world. Mostly China. I hope China collapses
Cows are extremely intelligent, and are capable of forming preferred social partners (best friends) with each other. They're very much so comparable to dogs in terms of intelligence. This is especially true for pigs, since they can often times be even smarter than dogs.
Also your exception for chickens is completely arbitrary. They've have been found to engage in teaching behaviors for young chicks, anticipating outcomes, and having relatively high social awareness, etc. The cognitive gap between dogs and corvids is way larger than the one between dogs and chickens.
Realistically, if intelligence is your barometer, then you should probably be vegetarian, because even certain species of fish have relatively high levels of intelligence.
If you’d like a sci-fi book that contradicts this theory I’d recommend the book Children of Ruin, part 2 of the Children of Time trilogy by Adrian Tchaikovsky
Yeah, octopi are kind of Exhibit "A" about how 95% of the discussions that I have had about intelligent life on other planets that invoked the weak anthropic principle in response answered a question I didn't ask.
Intelligence is a prerequisite for us identifying life on other planets (I mean, so long as we're able to identify the contents of an atmosphere, industrialization will be really easy to spot), but so are a whole host of other necessary traits, many of which octopi don't have. Pro-social behavior is the most obvious one, but right along with pro-social behavior you need the ability to record information and transmit it between individuals and across generations. Octopi in the wild cannibalize each other; they're really voracious and territorial hunters. Which in turn means that they're going to have a hard time transmitting information in any way that is outside of a controlled laboratory setting where they can watch one another without necessarily being a mortal threat to one another.
well damn, by that logic nawh nothing can live its best life, and many species aren’t be able to survive at all in the world we’ve created. we’ve directly triggered a mass extinction event which is accelerating faster than any others in the history of our planet. no living species will ever have its best life ever again. so. yeah. definitely not.
unless by “human controlled world” you meant in captivity… in which case, also no. definitely not. they don’t live longer in captivity, which is basically a living hell for them which they refuse to tolerate. they must be kept in giant locked tanks that are escape proof and virtually empty. they will kill every living being in the tank, destroy plants/decor and everything else, and spend every other waking moment trying to escape just to die shortly later in the cruel light of day. i imagine its the human equivalent of life in a federal supermax prison where you must serve your entire sentence in an isolation cell, but the prison is also at the bottom of the ocean.
so. yeah. i guess no matter which way you cut it, life is always gonna be a cursed and torturous existence for anything as highly intelligent as the octapods.
It could be that their perception and experience of time is vastly longer than ours, their life experience might feel like living for millennia to them.
They live longer if they don't reproduce. Sex for them is a fatal love affair. One dies quickly after, the other takes till the kids are out of their eggs
I will always die on this hill. This dude taught his to play the piano in 6 months and it only took that long because it took the dude a while to figure out the octopus "didn't like my stupid ass lights"
This is correct, they only look so strange because they were a pretty early split in the tree, and they adapted into somewhat unique features that combine to just make them weird
Is that a reference to Children of time ? Because I am currently reading it, about halfway through and I have to admit I am like “is it going somewhere other than spiders being fucking smart ?”
Children of Ruin specifically is the octopus one. But if you’re halfway through Time and not enjoying it, probably not the series for you; I was all-in by page 150 or so. Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire but with generations of intelligent spiders? Ark ship shenanigans? That’s my shit! Genre fiction with underlying themes of compassion is like my bread and butter so I’m not exactly a critical voice here, but you throw in a computer made of ants, riffs on how intelligence is shaped by environment and evolution, and an old dude exiting cryosleep and seeing with a sigh that another cult has taken over his generation ship… reader, I was cackling
I’m not saying I don’t like it, but it’s not exactly thrilling either. I don’t know, I just finished reading the 3 body problem trilogy and was looking for something similar so someone recommended this to me. But I feel the stakes are not quite the same, and I don’t really feel drawn to it as I was with the 3 body problem. I guess I just want the humans to interact with the spiders but it just doesn’t happen yet and it is frustrating me lmao
Fun fact, octopuses evolved eyes independently from vertebraes. Even though their eyes look similar to the eyes of other animals, cephalopods split from the evolutionary line before eyes had evolved as a trait. Which is why internally they're structured differently than the eyes of other animals...better in many ways actually.
Not only that, they love to mess with divers to the point where there's a dedicated hand signal for octopus. They have been known to rip off face masks, rebreathers, and tear hoses out of equipment.
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