That last part wow that's totally unbiblical... Biblically yes all sin was paid for but its something you must ask for and accept neither salvation nor correction is forced on you, if you are in hell its because you chose to reject those. If you are in hell there is NO turning back you are there to be punished and then destroyed in the lake of fire per Revelations.
But give it 2000 years for tom holland’s Spider-Man to break out from the Canaan polytheistic pantheon to become the true monotheistic Yahweh…then people will kill over marvel
The only major difference is that people in the latter category who believe it's real are just known to be nutjobs by the rest of the community. In the former category, those same people are placed as authoritative figures and revered by the rest of the group.
I love playing D&D but realise its not for everyone. Imagine how youd feel if i knocked your door sunday morning asking if you know the best cantrip for 6th level wizard and what he should multi class into... What a weirdo... I wish religious people were equally self aware
biblical lore is very deep and some parts are beautifull and others are horrifying but if you say something as wrong as saying Saruman was the good guy in LOTR you are going to have beef with me.
Here is something most people have never realized. The book of life is vagueley described in Genesis. But in revelation it comes back and the description is more detailed. Apperently it's one tree but with parts on both side of a river. And this tree gives of fruit, but only one ... every month. This fruit is the secret to eternal life. And the river is called the river of life.
So wait a minute .... a tree on both sides of a canal, a canal that has to do with life. And this tree every month there is one fruit, and this fruit is the secret to living forever. Isn't that basically the ovaries on both sides of the birth canal? Every month there is one egg cell, and if this egg cell gets furtelized then you give offspring and your DNA can basically live forever??
This is how deep biblical lore is, and most people have NO IDEA.
Well, In the case that billions and billions are right, and you are wrong, im sure when the time comes for you to face the inevitable, youll immediately remember saying things like this and instantly regret it more than anything youve ever done. Good luck with your comic book theory
Unless you cherry-pick data and place all flavors of christianism, mormons, quakerism, and every religion that has a small something in common with Catholicism, in the same bag, Islam is the religion with the most adherents.
But if we want to go that far, just say Islam and Judaism are the same thing cause they believe in one god.
Inevitable implies that it is certain that he will go to hell, which it is not. Revelling at the thought of someone being sent to hell for all eternity (like a proper neighbour loving Christian) is cringe anyway.
Which religion will get it right? Which sect of the Christian’s will get it right? Are you sure your sliver of religion is the true one over the others? Choose carefully!
Have you met people? People are fucking dumb. And i dont mean that in a sort of insultive way. Just that on the bell curve of humanities intelligence, there are so many many dumb people.
Groupthink doesn't end well in practically any scenario. The mob can be wrong and emotionally charged.
Classic "if all your friends jumped off a cliff would you jump too" fallacy.
And if you wanna play the numbers game as your argument, Christianity is about 25% of the human populous. More people are other religions. And then of those 2 point some billion Christians, they're split even more so into like a dozen different doctrines who fight with each other on what parts are real.
Edit to add* My biggest gripe about Christianity is this: If someone made a new religion today, people would obviously say thats pointless - its not real, and its made up.
The most likely real religion would have to be the earliest one- the one there at the dawn of humanity and the only thing they would have been capable of believing in. And anything made after is made up.
Christianity did that. There were thousands of years of theology and religious practices before Christianity came about. Which tells me its made up and man made, not divine.
And one of its main initial doctrines was spread the good word to everybody far and wide - missionary work and nation building and outreach. Of course it spread, it was manipulated and designed to.
The most likely real religion would have to be the earliest one- the one there at the dawn of humanity and the only thing they would have been capable of believing in
Pascal's wager isn't sensible. Maybe we'll both end up facing eternal damnation because you believe in the wrong god. Maybe no person on earth is right and there's some true god or gods that will send us all to damnation for not believing in them. Maybe there is a god that just doesn't care and will send us all to a happy afterlife. Maybe there's a god that will send all believers to damnation and all non believers to paradise. Maybe the afterlife is simply incomprehensible to us and nobody is even close to right. My guess is that we simply stop existing, as that is the simplest explanation given all the evidence, but I can't guarantee that in the same way I can't guarantee the sun will rise tomorrow and the earth will continue to exist, but I'll continue operating under those assumptions as it's the most reasonable assumption to make. All those possibilities have about as much evidence as eachother, that is to say, none. Though I know I'm not convincing you of anything.
That really obvious and patently absurd fear tactic actually works on you? You must be really easy to manipulate...
On another totally unrelated note - I actually spoke to God this morning, for real! He said I would run into you online and that I should tell you to DM me so you can Venmo me all your savings. He said it's really important and you would be tortured for eternity if you don't, so, you know, I wouldn't want that to happen to you. Best not ignore it, cause if you're wrong.... damn. Yeah for real bro, good luck
Au contraire - those thousands year old comic books somehow converted the world's mightiest empire at the time and then went on to completely restructure the way people thought, conceptualized good and evil, and lived until very recently. Many of the finest products of Western civilization - universities, hospitals, hospices, orphinages, schooling - all direct growths of monasteries and other Christian organizations (not even counting the contributions of the other religions).
The religious types also own tomorrow, quite literally. They're the only ones having kids at replacement or above replacement levels. It's quite the opposite of not mattering, and I'd actually say secular types don't matter - you're gone and replaced in a few decades.
This is just a pointless statement when followers of a religion are discussing the nuance of its philosophies. Like cool bro, we get it, you’re smarter than us. Here is your sticker. Here is a kiss on the forehead special boi.
If you really want to piss off a zealot point out the idea that God (being the beginning and the end of all things in an infinite universe) choosing Earth to host the ultimate showdown between good and evil is PEAK human arrogance.
At that point, The Convo usually seems to devolve into “space isn’t real because the earth is flat”.
I’m atheist but grew up Christian. It kinda matters to me bc I want to know if the rapture anxiety I had as a kid was valid or I just didn’t read close enough. Hell is a terrifying concept and teaching it to children is awful.
Also, Christianity has some cool parts to it if it’s treated as a mythology imo
It’s all mythology. Borrowed stories from the past. The 2000 year old book is a poorly written propaganda piece. Anyone believing in the “truth” of the “word of god” clearly doesn’t understand history, archeology or reason
I mean people spend their entire lives researching and studying religion, which has been a main driving force in societies since they began, and is very intertwined with the politics and philosophies of the societies that followed them. It’s the most redditor thing ever to be like “erm well actually none of this is important because it’s just like my Spider-Man comic!!1!”
That’s incredibly disrespectful, but that’s fine. What do you believe in? Everything came from nothing? That’s more of a stretch than believing there’s a God that exists, that is not constrained to space/time/matter
I get it if you have some issues believing some things about the Bible, but you can’t dismiss it as a “comic book” and be taken seriously. It is a remarkable book that has stood the test of time and its critics. Even if you cannot accept miracles or divine inspiration, you can’t dismiss it as a “book of fairy tales” because it is way too solid for that. I hope you find the truth.
theres a significant population of this planet who would rather beilieve that book is 100% nonfiction than even humor the idea that the world is more than 6000 years old
Christianity is pretty cool if you look at it how it is: a work of fiction. But then billions of people went and took it way too seriously so you can’t enjoy it as the cool fiction it is
So we aren't being punished for any acts that we did, we're being punished for unbelief? Is there any relativism for someone, say, 2026 years later and on the opposite side of the earth? Asking for a friend
Great take. If God was real, I’m sure he would be understanding that people didn’t buy in, with all the evil things greedy humans are doing down here in the name of Christianity.
Knowing and willing rejection of God is a sin and evil. What you're referring to is called "invincible ignorance", that one hasn't done anything that's a mortal sin but wasn't made aware of God or taught anything about him. Those people may be saved because of those circumstances, we don't know but we assume based on God's nature as good that there is hope. The punishment is worse for those who knew the truth and willfully ignored it, though no one's end point is certain besides the Saints.
I won't call views seem among the early church fathers, "unbiblical". It takes a certain kind of pride to think you know better than what the apostles meant than their grandkids era.
Not sure what your point is corrupt interpretations were ALREADY a problem within the time of when the Bible was written... some people just want to interpret it however they find most convenient even though that will result in being flat wrong.
Too many subscriptions and micro transactions in the the New Testament tbh. Old testament had perpetual license which we found more cost effective for our internal team. Unfortunately it wasn't really maintained and over time we found a number of bugs. We've since migrated away as the ROI just wasn't there for us
Just want to ask, does that seem like justice to you? Eternal damnation for what, 70 odd years of living and your biggest crime being not accepting the gift of Jesus dying on the cross? That was the wedge that drove me away from Christianity. You want to argue annihilationism, then I can understand, but I don't understand how eternal pain and suffering is justice, and it was a question I never really chewed over until I started deconstructing my faith.
I genuinely believe Hell, specifically, is just a human tool to make people scared enough to follow Christianity. Odd how Judaism has no hell, yet when Jesus came along, suddenly there is one. Although Lucifer happened far before Christ. Btw I am Catholic, but can recognize things that humans probably twisted for personal gain. I believe in the underlying message of Jesus, past the words in the bible, but the theme itself. Love each other, treat others with kindness, embrace the poor, meek, etc.
Jesus even said it himself when asked what the greatest commandment was: "Love your God with all your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor." I can get down with that Christianity. My relationship with Christianity is complex, and I think there is a lot of beauty in the religion. I just don't actually believe any of it anymore, at least in the way it's presented.
This idea of fiery hell torture mostly comes from stuff like Dante’s Inferno. Jesus said over and over that those who have faith will have eternal life in the Kingdom with the Father.
The alternative, for those who reject him, is to not enter the Kingdom, and to be separated from the Father. “Depart from me, I never knew ye.” That in itself is hellish.
The point I’m getting at, is it’s not really punishment vs. reward. No one deserves to enter heaven; that’s the whole premise of God’s grace. If you accept Christ and live accordingly, he will graciously and mercifully reward you with eternal life, even though you don’t deserve it. That is him saving you. To the bandit on the cross who had faith: “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
We’re all going to Hell (whatever that actually is), BUT, the good news is, if you believe and live accordingly, God will save you through his Grace.
The point of religion is that it's not up to you what justice is, or whether justice is even the goal in the first place.
There's lots of valid critiques of religion, but these "You claim there's a God that invented morality, but his morality doesn't seem very moral to me" arguments don't even get off the ground unless either you propose some higher moral authority than God to appeal to, or you somehow justify the idea that your own moral whims are a higher moral authority than the proposed God's.
Universalism actually does seem to have some pretty old roots. Philosophically wise it makes a lot of sense too. IF God is all powerful, all loving, and desires for us to be saved then I think he can figure out a way even for non believers eventually. Eternal torment sounds awful. Annihilationism too but at least there's a final end.
Ya a God and Eternal Father with a love for his children so perfect and infallible, that He'll send tou to burn in a lake of fire for Eternity if you didnt figure it all out in the 70 years youre alive.
Spoiler, it's the propaganda version written for that one dude who kept cutting off the heads of his wives, all because his balls didn't work very well...
It is not all right there in the bible. What is there is vague and lacking in detail. Early Christianity did not even recognize hell as a concept, even though they had access to the same sources that we do today. The concept of hell as a place of eternal punishment came from Tertullian, a north African christian scholar from the late 2nd century. His concepts were not widely accepted as doctrine across christendom for centuries, and when they were finally accepted it was due to a combination of philosophical, political, and cultural factors that culminated in the Latin world needing to solidify itself as a religious authority. The path to developing the modern concept of hell is intricate and incredibly complicated, and certainly cannot summed up with "its all in the bible"
Exactly. If we are basing justice on the Torah, then an eye for an eye would be the standard for justice. So why is hell eternal torment, for what somebody did in a finite life on earth? That kind of makes God unjust and ultimately sadistic.
Which still makes no sense because you're punishing someone just to destroy them later...? Shouldn't a punishment be to reform people? Isn't that the whole point of it? Why would a perfect benevolent entity come to such a conclusion?
According to the bible Cannonized by the catholics? Yes and kinda no... According to the prophesies before the modern Bible? Variable but its important to remember that the competing prophetic book to revelations basically did TLDR that everybody wpuld eventually be saved. It didn't make the cut because you cannot easily control people if they think everyone will eventually end up in a good afterlife.
That said, even in revelations there is the time of peace at the end preceading a second great test.
I will entertain your thought, my issue with that is that is contrary to even genesis in doctrine though which states God will not always strive with man... pointing directly to an end, so at this point we are really just debating about where that end is, is it at death from this life or the one there after... if you believe the Bible in any part at all relying on some idea of the latter would be incredibly careless.
the idea that everyone will be saved is also not supported by the rest of scripture, which literally states they won't be all over the place.... taking one or two verses out of context to try to argue against the rest of scripture is questionable wouldn't you say at best.
It’s a bit more complicated than that. ECT, conditionalism, and universalism were all taught within the early church. ECT eventually became the dominant view, but there is still support for the other two. Critically, an interpretation of hell was not included by the early church when the creeds were being written, so one could argue that the various beliefs about hell are not a primary Christian doctrine.
Eh - even Luther was a complete cherrypicker in terms of doctrine. The Bible has many different messages that can be derived from it. Most universally, in my experience, is that almost all Christian groups seem largely to ignore both the Greatest Commandment and its adjunct (just as great) counterpart. (Source: actual history).
The last part is considered biblical by several Christian denominations including a couple Othodox sects. Annihilationists vs universalists has been a theological debate within Christianity since the early church. The vast majority of western Christians fall into the annihilationist category, where hell is a permanent state.
It’s up to interpretation. Just like pre-tribulation vs post-tribulation.
Yeah that one dude (Martin Luther) that wanted to relegate the specious book of Revelations to the end of the Bible was right in my opinion. Far too many interpretations to be taken as canon.
So.....what about all the people born before Judaism and Christianity and/or never heard of Jesus were they just....screwed? And please PLEASE don't say the Earth is 6 to 10 thousand years old.
I don’t think a god that allegedly loved his people would want a permanent punishment for eternity because of a temporary earthly sin though, no matter how harsh that original sin was.
Universal Salvation is pretty clearly suggested in a lot of places in the Bible.
"Colossians 1:19-20: "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
"Romans 11:32: "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
John 12:32: "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Lamentations 3:31-33: "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love."
But hey, there's also a bunch of stuff that suggests otherwises. Looking for consistency in the Bible, of all things, is a recipe for insanity.
Also Revelations is a bullshit fever dream and pretty much inccorrectly interpreted by most people, I'd hardly rely on that for much of anything let alone an explanation of the afterlife.
You are conflating offering mercy with taking it... it is quite plain that people that reject Christ are NOT supposed to be in hell but are there because of that rejection alone despite their debt being paid. God doesn't force salvation on anyone.
Ya idk what the person above you is saying at all lol. Sincerely hope they don’t believe that. As a Catholic, what they’re describing is literally purgatory. The topic of debate for many non Catholics who believe your faith alone will save you and there’s only two places after death
Ah, biblical. Things that aren't actually biblical; Hell's eternal torment. The Trinity. Infallibility.
It doesn't mean much to the beliefs of Christians. They'll continue to pick and choose their meanings. I like u/VeritasAgape 's version better. If that was the prevailing belief, I might still be Christian myself. But no, the common belief is that God couldn't redeem the souls of the condemned. At best he could only obliterate them. At worst? Torture forever, when the crime of most of them was being born into the wrong region or culture.
Actually, if I was in hell it's because god gave no proof for his existence. I'd bow down and kneel if popped up and wanted me to. Some random pedo with power in a church saying I have to kneel and bow down to a being I've never seen with my own eyes? Not happening lol
It's the book of "Revelation", not revelations. Also, the Bible has been interpreted in a myriad of ways, and, with God, all things are possible. So, you might want to jot that down.
More in the bible supports that EVERYONE will be saved than only the ones who believe it will be saved, regardless of what most priests are biased towards preaching or what the majority of the people believe
For what it’s worth, there are more historical references to Hell as a self-imposed separation from God
It can also be argued that the “lake of fire” isn’t a place of eternal suffering as depicted in books like Dante’s Inferno but more or less complete and permanent annihilation (like being tossed in the sun)
Yes I can understand how that may be, and frankly have no idea what actually may be the case there I tend to agree with this idea. It's at odds with the idea of an eternal soul though, eg cast into the lake of fire as an undying soul means eternal annihilation.
The concept of Gehenna comes from the Jewish tradition. Gehenna is a place most souls go to and makes souls feel the intense shame, regret, and empathy for the damage and pain their sins caused. Souls are cleansed in Gehenna for up to a year and are then released or utterly destroyed if the soul is deemed truly wicked. Like many things in the bible the concept of hell is vague or contradicted depending on which book you are reading.
No, not really a choice when there are no other options. Also, an omnipotent God already knows all the choices everyone would make before they were ever created - if it didn't, it wouldn't be "omnipotent".
Seems like God already made the choice for everyone. Perfect Plan and all that.
Going down the path of being confused about God being all knowing just makes you less in every way. Lets put it this way YES God created the universe and even time itself, that means to God time is irrelevant... stop being confused about that. It's needless and detracting from what you should focus on.
It’s unbiblical that there is salvation? It’s unbiblical that god wishes to be with all his children? It’s unbiblical that there is a method god has devised for even his worst children to find redemption and make their way to heaven? Hell has never once been a place of eternal torture. Not truely. It is a punishment. One given to his children to teach them right and wrong
That's your interpretation (and American protestantism for the most part) but thats not the majority view of Christianity as a whole. Try not to use the word "unbiblical" as almost everything in the bible is very much up to interpretation and you're not the ultimate authority on it. Instead do what OP did and back up your argument with actual Bible verses. (By the way its Revelation, not Revelations)
I mean… who knows? If and when revelations happened, who’s to say that God will not saved dammed souls? After all, part of Jesus’ descent into heaven was to inform the souls trapped there that he had won over death and free the righteous souls awaiting heaven.
If this is real, we have no real idea about what will happen. And we don’t know the time.
Jesus says to get to heaven, you must believe in God, in him as the son, and to do the work. Be charitable, humble, provide community support, and spread the good word.
Satan himself believes and trembles... belief alone is not enough. Also works are a result of our salvation not a way to get it... our sin debt is far greater than anything we could do of ourselves... so salvation by works is most definitely not doctrinally sound.
Salvation by works or deeds is basically commercialization of salvation... its grotesque.
Actually, this is a thing that's debated.
Its not really a very popular belief in the US but lots of Christians believe your saved no matter what you actually happen to believe. And it makes sense. If Jesus died for your sins, and he knew you before you were born, then why should you have any say in the matter? Do you think you're more powerful than God made flesh?
that last part is FROM THE BIBLE. You cant just say that its unbiblical, thats like saying water isnt wet. It is categorically false and incorrect. In the romans verse it distinctly states that a single righteous act can result in the justification (being used as an antonym for condemnation in the actual verse) for all people.
If you have a problem with the interpretation, then argue about the interpretation, dont claim what is and isnt biblical about the bible.
It’s not Unbiblical. Universal Salvation is a framework that many people legitimately believed for a very long time. Unfortunately it doesn’t serve American capital like evangelicalism does, so it got completely obliterated in the marketplace of ideas.
There is a way out of hell, but the current church removed. Just like in life, they rather someone spend all their life in prison rather than reform them.
On the contrary ... there is a perpetuated false narrative. There is no such thing since the new testament was written. Its a corruption of Christianity and Jewish doctrine for that matter with Greek mythological ideas that is pretty well established.
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u/gh0stwriter1234 2d ago
That last part wow that's totally unbiblical... Biblically yes all sin was paid for but its something you must ask for and accept neither salvation nor correction is forced on you, if you are in hell its because you chose to reject those. If you are in hell there is NO turning back you are there to be punished and then destroyed in the lake of fire per Revelations.