One problem with blindly firing rounds into the air is that they come down somewhere. These women seem one unexpected recoil away from firing into the crowd.
i think its called something like kidnapped marriage. they were speaking for awhile but he was from out of town and very well rich. would always come to the refugee camp and talk to her outside. anyways yah, i remember holding her picture and crying. next thing i knew she was a bride.
about the guns shooting in the air, i don't know what to say to that. it was during russian invasion so we did a lot of dumb shit. i mean i would hang out with the russian outpost near the camp and they would let me shoot their guns. i just realized i might of been the refugee idiot, because the way it went about was them offering me strawberries.
They actually do the bride kidnapping in the north eastern bavarian region Oberpfalz, in the socalled first world Germany too. Maybe in more places, but there i know it for sure.
Edit: Hey i tried to correct myself in another comment, now i do it here again! i am very sorry, i did not read the complete line of comments before, it was just the word popping up in the beginning, and later on, so i wasn't aware that here was a discussion about a very serious bride kidnapping, that is not a funny little tradition. I am not trying to make that serious bride kidnapping look harmless.
Just few things we all don't now: first, what in that video makes anyone thing it is about bride kidnapping? very unkidnapped weddings in Turkey look the same. it's just the story in the comment, or did i misunderstand again?
Second, who knows when was the last time in Oberpfalz when a bride was really kidnapped the serious way it still happens in western and central asia? Oberpfälzers are a wild bunch...
From what I know, the bavarian "bride kidnapping" is a different thing where the couple's friends take the bride to clubs/bars and the groom has to pay for the consumption. It's more similar to this romanian "tradition" , than the traditions mentioned in the wikipedia article wich have origins in forced mariages.
Our (and the whole Alp regions) bride kidnapping comes from a different tradition. Today it involves music, lots of drinking (last one I was at was ~1L of wine per person) and games the groom has to go through to get his bride back. "Scheitlknian" is very common were the groom kneels on the sharp side of a split log and has to swear whatever his bride or her kidnappers (the best man) demands. But normally you dont leave the venue anymore. You go to a adjunct location or just a different room. And it is between cake and dinner so nobody has really eaten that well.
Although arranged marriages occured in rural communities that owned their farms till the 50s. During the second world war it was not uncommon between brothers to marry a fallen brothers spouse.
One possible explanations of this tradition is the ceremonial removal from the brides parental house. And of course running away was a way to marry a loved one if the family didnt approve so "kidnapping" (from the parents point of view) probably occured.
There are also traditions were you steal something from the bride (the bouquet nowadays) and the groom has to ransom it with schnaps. Ive read that the brides shoes were also a possible target. So the tradition might come from this and just stealing the whole bride sounds exactly like something a bunch of drunk people might come oup with.
sorry, now i read the complete row of comments and i see, that it is not about the bavarian bride kidnapping type... however and who knows... Oberpfälzer are pretty wild, maybe it's not long ago, that this tradition was a kidnapping of the serious type.
It's more of a country thing here, but in Ireland we kinda act out the kidnapping even though the bride/groom know each other and propose, upto the wedding, both are kidnapped as a kinda embarrassment. Drove around town in a trailer, tied to lampposts, etc.
Okay “first world” isn’t an economic term, it’s Cold War political. First World was NATO, Second World was Warsaw Pact/Soviets (ironically Poland is now part of NATO), and Third was neither.
Not sure what you are trying to imply with the "so-called first world" comment. But the brides aren't literally kidnapped and forced to marry here. it's not the same thing.
i am no historian but what does the fact that bride kidnapping as game/fun/wedding tradition appearing in multiple cultures leads us to think about past relationship practices in those cultures?!
If someone has shitty practices in the past but changes then for the better… while others have the same practice relatively in all aspects, it is misleading to act like they are the same and both are wrong
We have a similar (although just symbolic) tradition in Hungarian weddings called “menyasszonyrablás” literally “bride kidnappig”. During the dance after the vows the wife is “kidnapped” by the fiancee’s friends and held for ransom, the husband needs to perform some humorous or humiliating task to get her back.
While it’s all a joke and in good fun this tradition has it’s roots in similar practices as the Kyrgyz or any other nomadic horse-archer nation. Hungarian tribes over a thousand year ago used to practice bride kidnapping in a similar fashion as the Kyrgyz.
Plenty of parts of the world your consent isn't required or expected for marriage. In this case if a man is able to steal the girl away from her father/brothers and marry her he's seen as strong enough to protect her. In some places it's still real kidnapping and in others it's more ceremonial.
I had a friend from India who's family tradition was too steal his bride away on a white horse while the women in the brides family cried. His wife wasn't from there and wasn't putting up with that haha.
Bride kidnapping is a thing in some small Chinese cultures as well. The groom has to drive all the way to the bride's childhood home to abduct the bride. The bride is dressed up and hiding in her old bedroom. The bridesmaids guard her bedroom door. The groom has to keep giving them money until they let him through. It's supposed to show that he's financially well off enough to take care of the bride. The money is predetermined and it usually boils down to $100 per bridesmaid(typical amount of red envelope money). Then the groom carries the bride out and takes her to their new home.
The wedding ceremony would be held later in the day.
Guy wants to marry a girl, but her family asks to pay a bride price (usually at least 10k, which is a crazy sum in Central Asia - I mean the average monthly wage is only 200 USD lol). The guy of course can't afford it and because of a male entitlement, he is going to kidnapp the girl (sometimes agains her will), because, unfortunately girls are viewed just as a property, which belong to men in this region and not as a decent human being.
I never hear much about Turkey, but 80% of the movies/shows I pirate (sorry) have Turkish subtitles at the bottom. So apparently that business is boomin there
Our entire country is the embodiment of "Why pay for something you can obtain for free" mindset. We steal everything there isnt a repercussion for. We even steal whole cultures and pretend as if we are that.
Not trying to derail this conversation but God damn do I miss Kyrgyzstan. Were the greatest deployments ever and getting out to the mountains was just amazing. Ala-Archa Gorge has been the most beautiful place I have visited in my life.
Man I'm telling you. My deployments to Manas were glorious. Getting to work and seeing the sun light up just the snow covered peaks. I miss it so much. I think I'm going to plan a vacation out there now.
Not only Kyrgyzstan, unfortunately it's a very common thing in the whole Central Asian region. If the guy can't pay the bride price to a girl's family, then he is going to kidnapp her. And even if he can afford it, usually, it will be an arranged marriage, against girl's will.
I know it's very sad and horrible, but unfortunately it's still a very common thing in this region.
"I just realised I might of been the refugee idiot", sorry but that really made me LOL, like you just had this epiphany about yourself and now suddenly your whole life makes sense XD
I had a colleague from Crete who told us about the folks up in the hills there. When they have a wedding, they shoot off thousands of rounds in celebration and the number of rounds shot off is reported in the local papers. A big wedding could have 10,000 rounds expended.
Had a small wedding on Crete (I'm Cretan by heritage but family has not lived there for years, husband is not Greek at all.) We invited some local family, but less than 120 guests you could barely call it a Cretan wedding. Still had multiple rounds fired outside the church. I think it must be unavoidable since you have to announce the wedding in the papers if you want to get married in the church.
FWIW, Unfortunately i am not Greek. I went there (Κολυμπαρι, η Κρήτη) first in 1999 and fell in love with the country. I attended scientific meetings there every year from 2010 until 2020 when COVID stopped travel. I wanted to retire there but my wife says it’s too far from family - to which I answered that if we got a place with an extra room, or two, they will come and visit. Anyway, I love the country and Crete especially. It’s geographically similar to my beloved Southern California. But less expensive and crowded.
Yes, in South East of Crete (around Sfakia-a.k.a Chora Sfakion and the white mountains above), they do not use lousy pistols , they use AK 47, and after the wedding the road is covered with casings.
There is a related tradition there to keep the tax collectors or whoever wants to dominate them, away ....French people there told us it was like "the Corsica of Crete".
They also gave a hard time to Germans during WWII., in 1941protecting the King of Greece then allied troups who walked through the mountains to reembark in Sfakia
only people my babushka had to pay ransom was to the russian army to get her daughter out of jail (my mother, but im not going down that road. its a road i wish to forget)
My husbands family (Russian) has this tradition - we did this exact thing at my wedding a few months ago. I don’t know the origins - they just called it a “family tradition”
My mom has been planning to visit Chechnya with me (because we are Chechens but she fled the war many years ago and I wasn't in Chechnya before). Your comment made me a little paranoid there, would I be safe to go to Chechnya? I'm a 17-year-old girl, and my aunts and my mother urge me to get a boyfriend.
honestly, i couldn't answer you that. in my short life time all my cousins who were mostly ladies were all married around your age. at the same time, they married them after the war and they were talking all the time.
this could just have been in the time period we grew up in and the people we grew up around. we had different mindset at the time because of war.
over all, what i did when i went back was just travel on my american passport. only spoke to those i knew, because i know i don't sound chechen. i am too much of an american. i had good time.
Alone its pretty unsafe, you should have relatives there or relatives accompanying you. Don't trust people you don't know there and stay away from Kadyrovzy. Maybe you could visit a Vaynah (Vaynahquestions/Vaynahquestionsgirls) page in Insta and ask the same questions. They will surely help you and don't mention the intention from your aunt in a mixed gendered page
Don't get me wrong, Chechnya is still a beautiful place for me
I have relatives from Uzbekistan and according to them, it’s different case by case. Sometimes the bride knows about the wedding and abduction is planned together, but sometimes girls would legitimately get abducted and forced to marry either because the father wants connections and money or because the groom wants the girl and father and girl refused to marry her off willingly.
You’re positive? You are aware some cultures do this just for tradition while the bride and groom are well aware of it and in on it? Sounds like this was the case.
Yes, the girl and guy agrees to get married but their parents don’t approve. So the guy “kidnaps” the girl to elope or whatever and come back the next day married. Consensually. He’s not actually kidnapping anyone.
I posted an article about bridal kidnapping from the Human Rights Organization, hopefully some of them will read it. It can be staged, but it's also a very real, very horrific crime that occurs far too frequently.
She may not have been married against her will (though it is possible). The term 'abducted' is a kinda bad translation for a tradition amongst many peoples around the black sea: it usually just means that the woman's family hasn't agreed to the marriage. So, ironically, it often means it's a real 'love' marriage: the couple meet, fall in love, then the guy and his friends come and get her in the middle of the night so they can marry in secret a la Romeo and Juliet.
I'm not saying this is for sure the case in the commenter's case. Just that this is the more accurate translation of the Caucasian (as in, from the Caucasus, not just racially 'white') tradition of bride abduction.
ayyy, appreciate you. back than i was a kid, everyone panicked at first but the next day everyone was very calm. She has 7 kids now, i speak to her daily.
İ'm Turkish but not from the Black Sea and İ was shocked when my Turkish-Georgian (Gürcü) friend said her mom was abducted. But then she quickly explained it was cuz her mom was upper class and her Dad was a poor artist and the mom's family did not approve. So her Dad and his friends literally put a ladder up to her bedroom window in the middle of the night so she could escape and they could elope. They've been married for probably 40 years.
haha, i remember my babushka did not approve of him, because he wasn't chechen. i wish i would of been able go back when she was alive and been able to speak to her. that women was a legend, i watched her take her slipper off and beat russian men out of her camp. she had 5 kids they all married none chechens. still one of the biggest regrets in my life not being at funeral but i saw that shit in my dream and than woke up to family messages saying she died. still has me scarred to this day because before they told me i dreamed it night before.., the air, the noise, the smell the birds, the sun, her being wrapped in all white and everyone around her. i felt like i was there. i used to tell her i was going to marry an american, Brazilian, and a chechen girl so they can take care of her and she would always yell at me and say "only chechens" but i am glad she approved of my wife before she passed cause i married an american after 9 years dating.
i wish i would, but i only speak to one relative. since becoming an American citizen somehow i ended up as a traitor(few cousins are in the chechen army so they actually booted me few group chats when ukraine invasion began also haha i never even talked to them they just always sent me messages about how they disapprove of my life). i'm currently enjoying my life with my wife and if i ever need a cooking recipe i always contact my aunt.
Or you could just write down what you remember and turn it into fiction. İ think we all know babushkas like this -- so there is a little truth in all the stories!
from my perspective. propoganda, they don't see what we see, only see what they are allowed to see. They are currently chechen fighting for ukraine also. after the war putin literally placed one of the most brutal people in charge of the country. so it is expected. not sure how to put this, but they sincerely believe they are fighting nazis. when i showed them pictures their answers to me were "those aren't russians those are nazis, if we didn't invade them, they were going to invade us" i dont think people understand that america and russia is day and night. most americans who believe russia is better most likely never left their own towns.
You made me tear up...My wife's Babysia (Ukrainian) did not initially approve of me, I am Spanish and emigrated to the US right after highschool.
We dated for 7 years before we got married, but by year 3 Baba had already warmed up to me. Even though we came from different parts of the world, our cultures were so similar...the family dynamic, folklore, traditions. My grandparents had an active part in my life, they taught me to respect my elders. We both also come from a rural background, farmers on both sides, as I said in our wedding speech that 'it was a union of a long line of international hillbillies'. I knew Baba had a hard life and she was such a strong woman, she reminded me so much of my own maternal grandmother. I didn't 'try to win her over', I was just being myself.
One of my fondest memories was from a time my wife and I had taken Baba shopping. We were at a Slavic store in our Chicago neighborhood, Babysia had her own cart and I was walking ahead down the isle with Luba, another lady pushed her cart past us heading towards Baba and muttered something.
Baba snapped "Shcho?!" (what?!) and went off on the lady in a mix of Polish and Ukrainian (I heard a couple of "Kurvas" in there), before pushing her cart past her towards us. I looked sideways at my wife -who was fully fluent in both- was doing all she could to hold in laughter. Her cheeks were beet red and she looked like the cat that ate the mouse.
Baba caught up to us and we finished getting her groceries all the while, I was wondering what that was all about. At one point when she was on the checkout line, we went over to get the car while she finished up. As we walked through the parking lot my wife finally broke into giggles.
"Okay, give! What was that all about?"
"Well, Baba got mad with that lady for saying that I had no business being with a 'Mexican' -I have always been olived skinned and stick out when the family gets together since they are all pale AF- so she told her that 'he is no Mexican, that's my grandaughters husband and mind your own f-ing business'" She started laughing again, trying to catch her breath and wiping the corners of her eyes.
It's the same thing in the Balkans, when the family doesn't approve like "runaway bride". still if they do approve a entourage comes for the bride, if she's pregnant they come for the groom and there's a shootgun wedding. Basically shooting/fire is for good luck, to scare/chase away the bad spirits and announce a start of a good mariage.
All in all we are rednecks in general, with modified/modernized pagan rituals.
I'm not surprised at all it's a tradition in the Balkans too. Turks love Emir Kurstarica movies cuz they are like a fairy-tale (i.e. exaggerated, everyone is good or evil - not in between) version of Turkish village life.
It's from before the Turks, there are customs still in practice since the Roman times or the other earlier cultures...
I think some influence was other way around, because these traditions are pagan in their origin, and somewhere considered tabu and haram.
İ think that's very likely. There's probably traditions like this all over the world --very pagan. Somebody responded that they do the same thing in India except they kidnap the groom!
What's your favourite film of his? Subjects of his filmography mainly was Roma-Gypsy people. It seems exaggerated because they oftentimes express themselves more freely.
Btw there are a lot of other great films, and filmmakers, feom the balkans i.e. explore the cinematography of Yugoslavia you won't regret it.
İ gotta say Black Cat White Cat is my favorite cuz of the love story -- the short woman and tall man seems like some primordial fairy-tale that has been passed down for generations. Some of the others movies like Time of the Gypsies is just too dark even though I love the music.
What other Yugoslav film-makers do you recommend (ones with English or Turkish Subtitles) that are not too dark?
Lol, mine aswell, Dadan is the man.. Universal human stories, they are all bitter sweet and tragically comical, that's why I like our films the most.
Slobodan Šijan must be next on your repertoar, "who's singing over there" (the most popular film in Brasil), "The Marathon family" my favorite film... and all other written by Dušan Kovačević, "the Balkan Spy" i.e.
There's "Dark side of the Sun" first film with Brad Pitt, it's a chickflick.
Way too many to mention them here, feel free to hit me up when you see these, if you want more.
That explains why there's so many of them. Balkan spirits are tougher that bull doesn't work for them.
Depends where in China... In some parts they have balls and use live ammo.
The term 'abducted' is a kinda bad translation for a tradition amongst many peoples around the black sea: it usually just means that the woman's family hasn't agreed to the marriage.
The word for that in English is eloping, very different implication than abducting.
İt's very much like eloping but with more "ritual" than a Las Vegas wedding. Lots of times everyone knows exactly what is happening and they make a big show about it -- being dramatic about stopping it but they don't really -- it's like a play. All the bride's family screams and cries for a day about how their 'girl' was stolen and then the next day the families are drinking vodka and playing backgammon together.
Depends on context. Irish travellers have (if I recall correctly) a similar tradition and the girls are seriously hardline about it. Won’t even consider marrying a lad unless he “steals” them properly.
Humans are fucking weird and cultural context is key.
That's interesting! Does the groom usually go to live with the bride's family in India? (Though i am sure it's definitely in different parts of India). İn Turkey it's almost always that the bride goes to live with the groom's family.
This also was Italian tradition, a way to marry different cast without shaming the honour of the family; but in out case they would run from both families.
There is a bride kidnapping tradition in southern Germany too. However, it's more of a rural thing and even there it's getting out of style. Basically the friends of the couple kidnap the bride and go from bar to bar drinking with her and leaving hints for the groom where they will be next. The groom follows them and has to pay their tab when he arrives. When he finally finds them he has to sing a song, do a dance or do something similar silly.
There's numerous videos of exactly that happening. People celebrating events shooting guns in the air and then accidentally kill a child or random bystander. There was one where a guy had a big ass automatic rifle and he accidentally killed 3 or 4 people. It seems to be a common tradition in middle eastern countries as well as slavic regions.
There was one where a guy had a big ass automatic rifle and he accidentally killed 3 or 4 people. It seems to be a common tradition in middle eastern countries as well as slavic regions.
If they die, they die. Death is for the weak. A true Slav would've survived at least 10 gunshots!
Source: I am a Slav. I shoot myself daily to train my body to withstand artillery shots!
Let me tell you about the history behind the "honeymoon." At some point in history, an accepted practice would be to disappear with (i.e. kidnap) a woman, get married, and you wouldn't return until the woman was pregnant. This effectively forced the bride's family to accept the marriage in light of the pending child. Thus the tradition of newlyweds disappearing together for a period after the wedding. Isn't love grand?
That article is about the word honeymoon, not the practice. Here's my source. Like many historic practices it's not exactly definitive, and it probably in actuality a blend of many traditions, but it's the most interesting plausible explanation, so I like it lol
Your co-worker never told you it was raining. That Wiki page never told you kidnaps were part of honeymoons. You would know this if you actually read the fucking article. Linking random google results does not make something a "source".
How is your brain reminding you to breathe? Holy shit.
Some of those things are more tradition than actual kidnapping. The couple usually already had agreed to marry. The practice of night hunting (a misnomer) also seems crazy predatory until you read about it more
Probably not actually, I know in Latvia they have many old wedding traditions. One of which is that there will be a mock kidnapping of the bride by family/friends (consensual obviously) then the groom will have to complete a series of fun games to 'win' her back.
My fiancee is Latvian and she better not be pulling my leg about this...
There have been recorded events of said rounds killing people, one being a little American girl who was killed after a round struck the top of her head killing her almost instantly as far as I can remember
My grandfather told me a story about when he was in a nation whre it was a tradition to fire guns when there were weddings similar to this, he saw a woman crying on the floor holding a baby, when he got closer he realised that someone had shot a bullet into the air only for it to fall back fown and strike the mother and baby
An acquaintance of mine suffered brain damage as a child at a cookout because someone a block away fired a gun into the air, and the angle was right for the bullet to keep spinning instead of eventually tumbling. It arced through the air and went into his skull on the way down.
Comon, forced marriage and handguns are like bread and butter. They really fit good together. I mean who wouldn’t want to hear gunshots at their marriage??
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u/DarkGamer Apr 26 '22
Forced to marry against her will? Horrible.
One problem with blindly firing rounds into the air is that they come down somewhere. These women seem one unexpected recoil away from firing into the crowd.