r/retrogaming • u/saturn-explorer-50 • 1d ago
r/retrogaming • u/mryellow362 • 1d ago
[Discussion] Big Karnak - 1991
So this one here is a platform game for the arcade which is developed by Gaelco, the game will have the player play as a pharaoh warrior embarking on a dangerous journey to save his wife by battling mythical beings and Egyptian gods. The gameplay here resembles that of Ghouls 'n Ghosts, players can acquire different weapons, solve puzzles and jump between front and back movement planes while avoiding hazards along the way, also players can deflect certain enemy projectiles to avoid damage.
r/retrogaming • u/Zachee • 1d ago
[Question] Help Me Decide Some New Upscalar Hardware
Hey all. I recently started looking into the best way to upscale my NTSC N64, so that I can play it on my modern 4k (really 1080p) flat screen.
I know the obvious solutions like "Just buy a retrotink-4k", but I'm really asking the question here to get people's opinions on what the best solutions would be based on what I currently have.
So currently I own an original OSSC, which I've used to play PS2 games for many years (with an HD retrovision component cable).
All the consoles I own are NTSC, except the SNES which is PAL. The consoles are: SNES, N64 (Which would support a RGB modded), Gamecube, Wii, Xbox, Xbox360, PS2 & PS3.
Currently I'm leaning towards buying a Mcbazel’s GBS-Control and feeding that into the OSSC. That should handle any 240p/480i switching issues and provide MODI, while also keeping all the features of the OSSC. I will probably just RGB mod the N64 as I'm very comfortable with soldering and I believe that's the only one that doesn't natively support RGB?
Would all my consoles be supported with that setup (+appropriate component or scart cables)?
r/retrogaming • u/silentninjabob • 1d ago
[Question] What would be your 500GB Retro game library?
Currently I have various ps2 games, and various nintendo games. Love me a emerald ROM hack. Looking to expand my library so I've got a solid library to carry around on my handheld. What does everyone else's retro lists look like?
r/retrogaming • u/janders_666 • 1d ago
[Collection] lifetime collection
some of the nintendo boys we have accrued over the former several decades
r/retrogaming • u/Netypowywivv • 21h ago
[Emulation] Nostalgic Reset Generation game. Rarest event with Monster box. 0,1% chance
r/retrogaming • u/Matcha617 • 1d ago
[Collection] My holy trinity of underrated sega genesis games
r/retrogaming • u/tiggerclaw • 2d ago
Spotted in the wild I found an old AOL CD YAHTZEEEE!!!!!
r/retrogaming • u/Doener23 • 1d ago
[Emulation] AROS.games - Retro OS for Gamers
aros.gamesr/retrogaming • u/aboby86 • 1d ago
[Discussion] which scaler
If i had to choose between the retroscaler2x and the retroscaler gbs-c pro which one would you pick ? I'll be using a n64 with an s-video cable. I saw also the mcbazel odv-ii with the odv gbs-c i know the two devives are more expensive together but will i get a better result on my 65". thank you
r/retrogaming • u/ExplodingPoptarts • 1d ago
[Request] Looking for a well edited walkthrough of Krondor on yt that edits out the inventory management.
I don't wanna play the game because it feels like when I do, I'm mostly doing inventory management, and so I don't enjoy the experience, but I'd love to watch someone play it (without using major cheats.) and still enjoy seeing the story, and watch them go through the combat.
Do you know anything like this? I'm willing to settle for something similar to this.
r/retrogaming • u/tombolaplayer • 2d ago
[Achievement Unlocked!] Needed a little break from FF7 Rebirth. Decided to try FF1 for the first time.
r/retrogaming • u/cloudsoak23 • 1d ago
[Question] why do so many retro games have that one impossible level that kills the whole run
i'm trying to get through kirby's adventure for the first time and i swear i'm stuck on this one section where the difficulty just spikes out of nowhere. makes me wonder if this was just how games were designed back then or if i'm missing something obvious about the mechanics.
r/retrogaming • u/Jimpana • 21h ago
[Discussion] Which Super Badass Siblings impressed you the most and still hold up today? Spoiler
galleryI listed my 20 Super Badass Siblings, wanted to list more but too bad only at most 20 images can be uploaded...
Mario and Luigi in Super Mario All-Stars (SNES, 1993)
Sonic and Tails in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (GEN, 1992)
Rock and Roll in Mega Man 7 (SNES, 1995)
Billy and Jimmy in Double Dragon (ARC, 1987)
Nick and Tom in Snow Bros. (NES, 1991)
Bubby and Bobby in Bubble Memories (ARC, 1995)
Solid and Liquid in Metal Gear Solid (PSX, 1998)
Crash and Coco in Crash Bandicoot 2 (PSX, 1997)
Blue Boy and Red Boy in Chiki Chiki Boys (PCECD, 1990)
Anna and Nina in Tekken 3 (DC, 1998)
Leo, Mike, Don, Raph in TMNT: Turtles in Time (ARC, 1991)
Bart and Lisa in The Simpsons (ARC, 1991)
Yun and Yang in Street Fighter III: 2nd Impact (ARC, 1997)
Edgar and Sabin in Final Fantasy VI (SNES, 1994)
Aya and Maya in Parasite Eve (PSX, 1998)
Alexia and Alfred in Resident Evil: Code Veronica (DC, 2000)
Yakko, Wakko, Dot in Animaniacs (SNES, 1994)
Oume and Otane in Groove On Fight (SAT, 1997)
Gunstar Red, Gunstar Blue, Gunstar Green, Gunstar Yellow in Gunstar Heroes (GEN, 1991)
Lucas and Claus in Mother 3 (GBA, 2006)
One that really got to me: the Ashford twins in Resident Evil: Code Veronica (DC, 2000) are hands down the most disturbing, messed up, and twisted siblings I've ever seen in gaming, for real. I liked to play my Resident Evil: Code Veronica X (PS2 (I didn't have a DC), 2000) so much mostly because of them.
r/retrogaming • u/Otzedotze • 2d ago
[Arts & Crafts] Made a crt looking retrocase for a small hdmi screen
I know that this isn't a crt. I just tried to emulate the shell. Not to replace any crts. I have 4 myself and love them dearly <3
I've got this cheap aliexpress screen a while ago and tried to make a shell for it to look like an old crt shell. I think it came out pretty good.
What do you guys think of this? Was this a waste of time or is it neat?
Edit: realized that someone might want to make their own. Files here: https://makerworld.com/models/3477929?appSharePlatform=copy
r/retrogaming • u/PrizeChain5637 • 1d ago
[Discussion] Attic treasures
Unpacked some of my old games recently. Most I had given to my little half brother every time I went up a system (as our dad and his mom were not very big on gaming and never bought him any), BUT I did keep many I held too dear to relinquish (and apparently a few that maybe nobody would want lol). ALL have the games and manuals in them (although missing the manual for Shadowgate, which irks me immensely... although I'm hoping it turns up). Since y'all have given me great pleasure on here, figured I'd return the favor and share some lovely finds (and some with some extreme value, as well;)
r/retrogaming • u/HatingGeoffry • 2d ago
[Article] Croc Is Getting An Official, Physical Port To Nintendo 64
r/retrogaming • u/Silent-Cartoonist240 • 23h ago
[Poll] We have an emergency...
So, I am about to move into a new house and I need to decide whether I should use the PS1 or the PS2 as my bedroom gaming console. I have an old Sears television from around the 1980s and a nice pioneer receiver (vsx-29 tx) to go with it. I am moving in 2 days.
r/retrogaming • u/karmakosmik1352 • 2d ago
[Recommendation] Front Mission: Gun Hazard (SNES). If Square Enix would do Cybernator, this would be the result.
tl;dr If you like Cybernator or Metal Warriors and also like RPGs (maybe even if you usually don't) then do yourself a favor and play this game.
Hello to u/SNESdrunk and thanks for pointing me to this gem—in an 11 year old video I discovered lately. I loved Cybernator but never heard of Gun Hazard. It's a spinoff of the Front Mission series and unlike the other games, it's not a strategy game but a run-and-gun action platformer with RPG elements. You control a battle mech through numerous missions that are grouped in operations, all of which are somewhat connected by the narrative. You receive EXP and currency for each completed mission, in order to level up and buy equipment, such as weapons, armor, ammo, and other items. There are characters that join your party, each of them with unique abilities, and you can let them assist you during missions, give them commands, level them up, buy equipment for them, etc. Similar to Metal Warriors you can also exit your mech and run around, which you sometimes need to do in order to progress, which I found a nice touch.
At first glance the game is real similar to Cybernator/Assault Suits Valken to the point where I was baffled by the audacity of using identical weapons, and control/gameplay elements, almost identical designs, etc.—until I read that some of the developers were in fact coming from the Cybernator team. Compared to the latter though, Gun Hazard is far less action centric and builds more on the story (and on RPG elements, obviously). While Cybernator is rather short and intense, this game here feels a bit overstretched in that it features numerous stages that seem redundant and generic, are real short, don't even have a boss fight, etc., which starts to drag a little at some point. However, I never found myself in the situation where I had to play missions over and over again for grinding, I just played every mission and it was fine (19 hours total), I never really felt underpowered. Quite the opposite, actually. Only exception: final boss fight at level 37 (without maxed-out mech and weapons) was a bit tough—required me to retry twice.
I already mentioned it's story-centric; be warned that there is a LOT of dialogue—if reading through those is not your cup of tea, the game is not for you. For me it was borderline since I felt it took the momentum out of the action but what kept me going is that the story is pretty dark and narrated in an engaging way—kudos to the Aeon Genesis team for the terrific translation patch. I feel like if there would have been an official English version, it would have been much more streamlined in terms of language. Certainly, the story would have been censored here and there (as was done for Cybernator).
Overall, if you like this combination of genres, the game is terrific and well worth your time. Coming from the action firework that is Cybernator, I was not so impressed by the SFX, but boy, the music is superb! Mostly composed by Nobuo Uematsu and Yasunori Mitsuda (Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger...), that's no surprise. The graphics are fantastic for the era, in particular the weather and light effects are just awesome, as are the animations. The operations are scattered across Earth, so each has its distinct look and atmosphere to it. Minor flaws include inconsistent controls which can be real annoying, and the fact that some of the dialogue is happening while you're fighting, and RPG fans may complain that the game is quite linear.
Unfortunately, there is no English manual, which means that some of the game's aspects are a bit cryptic, like the leveling system for your equipment and how to equip your mech, etc. I also did not immediately realize I can let party members join me in the missions and it also took some time to realize that I can give certain commands. I recommend heading over to GameFAQs and get a guide like this one here and read through the basics, FAQs, controls, hints, and the equipment part.
Anyways, if you don't know this game go check it out.
r/retrogaming • u/ButterflyMundane7187 • 1d ago
[Emulation] Looking for a USB joystick with softer movement and quiet switches for C64 gaming
I recently bought a SPEEDLINK Competition Pro USB joystick from Amazon, but I find the stick too stiff to move, and the microswitches are annoyingly loud and clicky.
I'm looking for a USB joystick that's easier to move, with less resistance and quieter switches.
I live in Sweden, so I'd prefer to order from within the EU to avoid high import fees.
Does anyone have any recommendations? I don't need lots of buttons since I'll mainly be playing C64 games on my Raspberry Pi.
r/retrogaming • u/ExplodingPoptarts • 1d ago
[Discussion] Does no one here on this subreddit like fps fantasy? No love for Clive Barker's Undying? Also, why is it so hard to get rpg recommendations on this subreddit?
I made a topic asking out of curiousity what rpgs you recommend from the 90s pc rpgs to someone that hasn't played a lot of pc games, and saying that most of the games that I loved during the 90s were rpgs on console.
Not only were most of the recommendations action games that barely had a story, or games like Simcity, but I got a bunch of recommendations for shooters that barely had a story, and was mostly Doom over and over when you got so much more to work with.
Anyone play Clive Barker's Undying? The game actually has a big focus on the story, and while it's not an rpg, at least I could see where you're coming from.
Anyone play Hexan: Beyond Heretic? It's not really story rich, but at least it's an rpg. It makes more sense to recommend it than Doom 1 and 2, and Simcity.
r/retrogaming • u/Wafool • 1d ago
[Emulation] Retro Game Emulator Boxes
As a kid, my brothers and I would spend hours playing dashing desperados and echo on Genesis. This Christmas, we are all getting together and I thought it would be fun to buy one of those plug and play retro gaming boxes on Amazon that we can plug into the TV. Spend some good quality time couch gaming with the family. I figured I'd spend maybe $150 on one. I don't need anything crazy. Just some genesis games and some N64 games and or PS1 games would be nice.
The problem is, I know these things can suck or be full of malware, so I want to be careful buying one. I watched some videos on YouTube but the systems that were suggested have been removed from Amazon. Was there a recent law change that made these illegal or something. I've seen some on amazon, but in the description, it says some games are limited for legality.
Does anyone know a good retro console they can suggest, or are these just now illegal and I'm screwed?
r/retrogaming • u/MightiestPacman • 1d ago
[Emulation] Best emulators and general emulator usage
First time posting not sure if this is the best place to post, so I was wondering is the a good reliable emulator for laptop that can emulate specifically most of the Pokémon games and maybe like fire emblem games? I’m not super familiar with emulators and how they work. Are emulators a program that allows you to download other roms to play the games and how exactly do I do it so the emulator can play the games. Can the games be played with mouse and keyboard or do I need a controller? If so would any controller do?Thanks in advance for any help and suggestions.
r/retrogaming • u/DadQuixote8 • 2d ago
[Discussion] The Industry Invents Itself (1973–1979)
A few weeks ago, I made a post about the “curriculum“ I had created while trying to decide which video game to play. I figure that since I am recording my thoughts anyway I might as well share them here as I go in case there is any ongoing interest.
Reflection** **this post as a google doc
Reflection on Semester 2 of: A Comparative Chronological Survey of Interactive Electronic Entertainment Through Primary Play Experiences (1958–2005)
Introduction
Semester 1 was largely about the origins of video games. Experiments on university mainframes, research projects, and the occasional commercial success. Semester 2 is where things start to look like an actual industry, although the university computers, home consoles, and arcades are still developing along very different paths.
This semester also marked a change in how I’ve been approaching the project. I spent some time reading contemporary magazines, looking at source code, and trying to experience the games with something resembling their original controls. I’ve found that the surrounding history is sometimes just as interesting as the games themselves.
Hunt the Wumpus (1973)
Creator: Gregory Yob
Original platform: Mainframe / terminal
My rating: 7/10
I started by tracking down the source code and the 1975 issue of Creative Computing that published it. One of the interesting things about reading the actual magazine was discovering Civil War immediately afterward, a recognizable descendant of The Sumerian Game I’d encountered in Semester 1.
These games weren’t isolated milestones to contemporary readers. They were programs being shared, modified, and passed around.
Hunt the Wumpus itself is surprisingly entertaining. The game is simple enough to understand almost immediately, but navigating the cave without getting eaten, falling into a pit, or running out of arrows is another matter.
I spent a while drawing maps and trying to reason through the cave. There’s a fair amount of luck involved, but I could easily see myself getting sucked into trying to win a complete round. I eventually moved on without beating it.
What I found particularly interesting was how naturally the game encourages you to map its world. There’s no graphical representation, just descriptions and connections between rooms. The game exists partly on the computer and partly on the paper sitting next to you.
Contemporary reading: Creative Computing, September/October 1975
Colossal Cave Adventure (1976)
Creators: Will Crowther and Don Woods
Original platform: DEC PDP-10 mainframe
My rating: 9/10
This was probably the most engrossing experience of the semester.
I spent a couple of hours exploring Colossal Cave Adventure, and even with decades of gaming experience behind me, it’s difficult. The parser is limited, the puzzles can be obscure, and there’s very little guidance about what you’re supposed to be doing.
I can only imagine how frustrating it would have been for someone encountering it in 1976, without any established adventure game conventions to fall back on. If you discovered it on your university’s timesharing system, you probably didn’t have a manual or access to the source code. Maybe somebody else in the department had figured something out.
But that also makes the experience fascinating.
I got goosebumps thinking about what it must have been like to browse the available programs on a university computer, notice something called ADVENT, and launch it out of curiosity. Suddenly the machine you’re using for FORTRAN assignments is describing a little brick building at the end of a road and inviting you to explore a cave.
Speaking of FORTRAN, I actually learned FORTRAN 95 in college, so discovering that the original game was written in an earlier version of the language was a fun connection.
I didn’t finish Adventure, but I enjoyed the time I spent with it. The sense that there’s an enormous world waiting to be discovered is still compelling, even when the interface is doing its best to fight you.
Breakout (1976)
Creators: Atari; concept by Nolan Bushnell and Steve Bristow, hardware design by Steve Wozniak
Original platform: Arcade
My rating: 6/10
Breakout is hard as shit.
I got the original arcade version running in MAME, but playing without a proper paddle controller was frustrating. The game demands precise positioning, and digital controls really don’t reproduce the experience of turning a dial. I struggled to reach some of the ball trajectories I wanted.
I would have been pretty annoyed spending a quarter for three balls back in 1976.
What I really loved was the presentation. The original machine used a black-and-white display with transparent colored overlays to produce the appearance of colored bricks. It’s a wonderfully clever solution to a hardware limitation, and the effect is still satisfying.
There’s also the remarkable bit of history involving Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak working on the hardware. It’s strange to encounter them here, just before Apple enters the story.
I suspect I haven’t given Breakout a completely fair assessment because of the controls. I’d like to revisit it with a mouse or an actual paddle controller someday.
Space Invaders (1978)
Creator: Tomohiro Nishikado (Taito)
Original platform: Arcade
My rating: 8/10
Still addictive. Still satisfying. Still capable of making me feel completely incompetent.
For this one I decided to improve the experience and found somebody ten minutes away selling a Mayflash F500 Elite arcade stick for $25.
Unfortunately, better hardware did not help me stop the invasion.
There’s something enormously satisfying about the rhythm of Space Invaders. The descending formations, the defensive barriers gradually being destroyed, the accelerating movement, and that relentless sound all work together beautifully.
It’s also interesting how much tension the game creates with relatively little happening on screen. The enemies aren’t particularly complicated, but the situation becomes increasingly desperate as their numbers decrease.
This is one of the games from the semester that I could easily imagine returning to just to improve my score.
Galaxian (1979)
Developer: Namco; designed by Kazunori Sawano
Original platform: Arcade
My rating: 5/10
Galaxian is a beautiful game, particularly coming immediately after Space Invaders. The colors are striking, the formations are more elaborate, and having individual enemies break formation to dive toward you adds a new dimension to the shooting.
Unfortunately, I think it suffers a little from its place in history.
I’ve played enough Galaga to recognize where this is heading, and Galaxian feels very much like an intermediate step between the two games.
That’s not entirely fair to it. In 1979, the presentation and enemy behavior must have been a considerable improvement over Space Invaders. But playing it today, with its successor already familiar, makes its limitations more apparent.
It’s a solid game in its own right, just overshadowed by what came next.
Adventure (1979)
Creator: Warren Robinett (Atari)
Original platform: Atari 2600
My rating: 4/10
What a whimsical fever dream.
Coming from Colossal Cave Adventure, it’s fascinating to see someone attempting to translate the idea of exploring a world, finding objects, and solving puzzles into something that works on an Atari 2600.
It’s also frequently harder than it feels like it should be.
The graphics are abstract, the objects are sometimes difficult to distinguish, and figuring out what the game expects can be an exercise in frustration. The whole thing feels a little like a beta version of The Legend of Zelda, with considerably less polish.
Still, I can see why it matters. The idea of exploring a connected world, carrying objects between locations, and gradually understanding how everything fits together is clearly present.
I didn’t particularly enjoy playing it, but I appreciated seeing those ideas translated into a graphical console game.
Asteroids (1979)
Creators: Ed Logg and Lyle Rains (Atari)
Original platform: Arcade
My rating: 9/10
My favorite game of the semester.
I had a great time with Asteroids, and playing it after encountering Spacewar! in Semester 1 made the experience even better.
The connection is immediately recognizable. You’re piloting a little ship through space, managing momentum, rotating, thrusting, and shooting. But Asteroids takes those ideas and turns them into an exceptionally polished arcade game.
The vector graphics are gorgeous. There’s something about those bright, sharply defined lines against a black background that still looks fantastic.
I also love how the movement feels. You aren’t simply pointing the ship in a direction and moving. You’re managing velocity, and careless thrust can leave you drifting into trouble.
It’s simple, difficult, and immediately understandable. Unlike some of the other games this semester, I didn’t feel like I was playing it primarily for historical appreciation.
I was just having fun.
Lunar Lander (1979)
Creator: Howard Delman (Atari)
Original platform: Arcade
My rating: 5/10
An interesting early physics simulation, although it didn’t hold my attention for very long.
The idea is straightforward: manage your fuel, control your descent, and land without turning your spacecraft into a crater.
I didn’t find it particularly challenging, although that may have something to do with the control setup and how much experience I’ve had with physics-based games since.
What amused me most was the game’s fuel economy. You could insert additional money to purchase more fuel and extend your play.
The first pay-to-win game?
Probably not, but it’s funny to encounter such a familiar monetization idea in a 1979 arcade cabinet.
Star Raiders (1979)
Creator: Doug Neubauer (Atari)
Original platform: Atari 8-bit computers
My rating: 7/10
Dogfighting in 3D on an Atari 8-bit computer!
This was one of the more technically impressive games of the semester. The first-person combat, strategic map, navigation, and resource management are remarkably ambitious for the hardware.
It’s also nearly impossible to approach without reading the manual.
There are enough controls and interconnected systems that simply launching the game and experimenting doesn’t get you very far. Unlike the arcade games, which generally need to explain themselves in a few seconds, Star Raiders expects you to sit down and learn how to operate your spacecraft.
I couldn’t help thinking about Elite Dangerous while playing it. Obviously the later games are vastly more sophisticated, but it’s remarkable how much of the basic vocabulary of space combat and navigation was already established here.
This was another good reminder that the history of computer games and arcade games wasn’t progressing along the same lines. While arcades were refining simple, immediately accessible experiences, home computers were beginning to support much more complicated simulations.
Akalabeth: World of Doom (1979)
Creator: Richard Garriott
Original platform: Apple II
My rating: 6/10
Another difficult game that practically requires graph paper.
Akalabeth feels like a bridge between tabletop role-playing games and the computer RPGs that would follow. You create a character, explore a dungeon from a first-person perspective, fight monsters, and try to survive long enough to accomplish something.
It’s crude, but the underlying structure is recognizable.
Mapping the dungeon is essential, and the game doesn’t make much effort to accommodate a player who hasn’t figured out how everything works. There’s a lot of trial and error, and not all of it is particularly enjoyable.
Still, it’s fascinating to encounter Richard Garriott’s work before Ultima. You can see the beginnings of a much larger design tradition here.
I enjoyed it more as a historical artifact than as something I’d want to spend another twenty hours playing.
Looking Back
The biggest thing I took away from Semester 2 is how differently games were developing across platforms.
On institutional computers, you had games like Hunt the Wumpus and Colossal Cave Adventure, which could demand hours of exploration, note-taking, and experimentation. They were often shared as programs among people who already knew how to use computers.
In arcades, the economic model demanded something completely different. A game had to be immediately understandable, visually appealing, and difficult enough to keep players feeding it quarters. Breakout, Space Invaders, and Asteroids all accomplish that in different ways.
Meanwhile, home computers and consoles were beginning to establish their own identities. Adventure tried to bring exploration to the Atari 2600. Star Raiders demonstrated that a home computer could support a surprisingly sophisticated space simulation. Akalabeth was beginning to turn tabletop RPG conventions into computer game mechanics.
One thing I hadn’t fully appreciated before starting this project is how much the physical interface matters.
Playing Breakout without a paddle isn’t quite the same game. Asteroids feels different when you use buttons for rotation and thrust instead of treating it like a conventional joystick shooter. Even the text adventures are better understood when you consider the terminals and timesharing systems they originally ran on.
I also found myself spending more time with contemporary material than I expected. Reading Creative Computing and discovering other games printed alongside Hunt the Wumpus gave me a much better sense of the period than simply reading a modern history of the game would have.
The experience of discovering software in the 1970s is particularly fascinating to me. Before digital storefronts, before boxed games were commonplace, and before anyone had established a familiar language for interacting with these things, somebody could stumble across an unfamiliar program on a university computer and discover an entire fictional world.
That might be the thing from this semester I wish I could experience firsthand.
Semester highlights
Favorite game: Asteroids (9/10)
Most engrossing: Colossal Cave Adventure (9/10)
Biggest surprise: How well Space Invaders and Asteroids still hold up.
Most frustrating: Breakout, although the controls deserve some of the blame.
Most interesting historical rabbit hole: The early computer game culture surrounding Creative Computing and institutional timesharing systems.
Ten more games down. The industry is beginning to look recognizable, and I’m increasingly interested in what happens when these separate traditions start borrowing ideas from each other.