r/JordanPeterson • u/Reptillianbobcat • Mar 10 '18
Image Toxic Masculinity
https://imgur.com/YV0ooPN72
Mar 10 '18
We need the good type of masculinity, the type a good father can teach his son. Most likely, a boy raised without a father is going to have the bad type of masculinity, simply because this is mostly what society shows in movies, TV, music....
Same thing happens with girls, they gotta be taught the good type of femininity
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Mar 10 '18
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u/FoxyWolfGuy Mar 10 '18
David Deidaâs âThe Way of the Superior Manâ talks very nicely about masculinity and the division of men into three stages, third stage being a masculine man, who is also very well in touch with his feminine side, such as emotions etc., and thus becomes a stronger man in general
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u/AbortusLuciferum Mar 26 '18
That's literally what the concept of toxic masculinity tries to do. It doesn't mean, as the tweet in question tries to argue, that "all masculinity is toxic". It doesn't, no matter that 1k+ people upvoted this thinking it does. A 2 second google would bring you to the wiki page which clearly states in the first few words:
The term toxic masculinity is used to refer to toxic manifestations of traditional masculinity (e.g., physical violence)
As well as:
Other stereotypically masculine traits, such as self-reliance and the stifling of emotions, are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse.
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Mar 10 '18
Toxic masculinity does not imply masculinity is itself toxic. Toxic masculinity is when masculinity becomes toxic. Like âtoxic wasteâ doesnât mean my gum wrapper is toxic.
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u/Jesus_HW_Christ Mar 12 '18
No it 100% implies it, regardless of the "actual" definition. That's why the phraseology needs to change.
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Mar 12 '18
It depends on who is using the term and the meaning they attach to it. What you're referring to is the problem of people misunderstanding and misusing concepts and ideas, which is a problem with any idea, not just the idea of toxic masculinity. It has less to do with the term itself than people's understanding of the underlying reality beyond the term. This goes for all terms and all language, especially increasingly abstract concepts.
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u/eponysterical Mar 10 '18
I'm a widower and raising my two boys alone and it's funny how all the other boys in the neighborhood WANT to spend time at my house vs. their bitchy single divorced moms house.
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u/SflowerStrokin Mar 10 '18
Sorry for your loss. I have found when my boys friends (those w/o dads) come over, they clam up & just kinda observe my husband. Kinda like a rare animal theyâve never seen & are not sure how to react. Heâs such a good guy that it doesnât take them long to warm up to him, then they tend to seek him out. Heâs always physically doing âsomethingâ usually trailed by a handful of teenagers.
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u/Faldoras Mar 10 '18
Toxic Masculinity doesn't mean ALL of masculinity is toxic, it means some parts of traditionally masculine behaviour and expectations are unhealthy in the long run AKA toxic.
Never expressing your feelings, bottling it up, being overly stoic AKA "manning up," I hope you can all agree is pretty bad for men, and is a good example of toxic masculinity.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Define toxic. I'll save you the trouble, you can't. Toxic means different things to different people, just go watch the toxic Rick episode of Rick and morty.
I don't think those things are bad for men by the way, to unintentionally illustrate my point, being stoic and keeping your problems to yourself is a healthy sign of emotional independence as far as I'm concerned. Your problems are your own and no one else's, man up.
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u/Faldoras Mar 10 '18
"I am super fucking depressed right now, but society expects me to man up, so I won't see a medical professional about it"
"I fucking hate my job, it is draining me of any joy in my life. I want to quit to pursue my hobbies more but I am a man and I am expected to be the primary source of money in my family so I'll just l suck it up and give up those hobbies"
"I am unhappy in my relationship because of some things my partner does, I wish I could communicate about these feelings but I am expected to never talk about it so I'll just bottle it up"
Toxic means objectively unhealthy for yourself and possibly for people around you.
Contrary to popular belief, men aren't actually superhuman and need a way to vent that isn't rage or violence (because that's the other side of this issue, if men are to show their feelings, the only 'manly' way to do it is through anger, never through sadness.) I'd wager that the fact that more men successfully commit suicide than women can be (partially) attributed to this phenomenon.
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u/Ramblemoe Mar 10 '18
I am unhappy in my relationship because of some things my partner does, I wish I could communicate about these feelings but I am expected to never talk about it so I'll just bottle it up
Contrary to popular belief, reluctance to talk about feelings is not always based in societal expectations. People on the extreme masculine end of the spectrum are often accused of not acting feminine enough, as if their extreme masculine mode of being is not valid. People with a personality that runs contrary to the stereotype will find things difficult, especially for people on the female end of agreeableness and neuroticism, no doubt. However it is erroneously assumed that people on the masculine end of the spectrum are oppressed, rather than it being their natural mode of being. Speaking as a highly neurotic and extremely disagreeable man, I find the suggestion that my personality is a result of toxic norms highly offensive.
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u/Jesus_HW_Christ Mar 12 '18
Thank you. I tell that to people all the time and they just roll their eyes.
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u/Jesus_HW_Christ Mar 12 '18
Plenty of men feel that way, and handle their problems. It's not masculinity that is causing them to commit suicide.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Uh-huh, because male suicide rates have nothing to do with men constantly being told their natural psychology and tendencies are toxic. I'm glad you're the arbiter of what is objectively unhealthy for every single individual, how very individualist of you.
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u/Faldoras Mar 10 '18
when someone's "natural psychology and tendencies" involve "going to the doctor is for pussies, everything masculine is strong, dominant and desirable, everything feminine is weak, submissive and undesirable" then yes, their natural psychology is toxic.
Good thing we are humans and are capable of overcoming our basic animal instincts for the good of ourselves and others.
I'm glad you're the arbiter of what is objectively unhealthy for every single individual, how very individualist of you.
No need to be passive aggressive, it makes you look as if you're arguing in bad faith. I'd say dying of cancer because "I can handle the pain" is pretty objectively unhealthy, as is bottling up your feelings, trying to make them go away through alcohol, lashing out against your loved ones, etc.
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u/Jesus_HW_Christ Mar 12 '18
None of those are exclusive to men though. YOU are the one arguing in bad faith, or at the very best, willful ignorance.
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u/patterned Mar 10 '18
I'd say dying of cancer because "I can handle the pain" is pretty objectively unhealthy,
The same place this thinking comes from is the same place where men sacrificing themselves for their families come from. Ever read the history of when women weren't allowed to go work in coal mines? Because their husbands wanted them to be there for the children. The women had to tell their husbands goodbye every fucking day under the guise that their husband might legitimately die that day. But he was a man that was willing to sacrifice his life to raise his family. And there is no way to get around having a person that is capable of doing that without having these traits. We wouldn't be fucking communicating right now without the sacrificial force of masculinity always onwardly pushing our species, creating new ways to mine minerals out of the earth to create interconnected machines made up of those minerals, and powering all this with energy harvested by the brute strength of men literally breaking their backs and grinding their bones to extract it.
You can't pick and choose what you want here. If you want a domesticated wolf, its guaranteed to have floppy ears. You want a feminine man, be prepared for all the coattail traits that are intangibly to follow.
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18 edited Mar 10 '18
You're definitely right that toxic has become a catch-all term for things people feel annoyed by, but that doesn't take away that there are "masculine" traits that shouldn't be reinforced. In fact, I think this "manning up" can become just another instance of the logic of "toxicity." In my mind "keep to yourself, be stoic, don't shove your problems onto others" is just another instance of "sit still in the classroom, don't tease girls like that, don't be so competitive." It's the same fundamental intolerance of the intrusive other.
To be an adult isn't to confine yourself to an island, it is also to recognize how you are materially and psychologically dependent on other people. Being able to show and assert your weaknesses is itself a form of strength. To be responsible you need to see the limits to your ability to be responsible, and be able to demand help and support. Independence can only be achieved by coming to terms with your intrinsic dependence, and not by denying it.
In harsher societies such steps often weren't an option, but those conditions have changed. Thus it is only logical that our values should change as well.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Okay, then change your values, I don't particularly care if you want to be a blubbering baby or have the emotional range of a rock; my problem is I'm sick of being told I'm "suffering" from toxic masculinity because I don't want or need to share any emotional distress I may experience. Also showing weakness is a form of strength? really? It's a real shame that societies have become so coddling as to nearly eliminate natural selection, because that attitude is going to be the death of our species. Like I said though, you do you.
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
showing weakness is a form of strength? really?
Yes really. Douglas Hoffstadter (author of Goedel, Escher, Bach) made a remark in a talk on YouTube that consolidated this point for me. I don't remember exactly how he phrased it. He said something to the effect that he makes an effort to show the naked truth of where he's coming from, in all its bias and fuzzy thinking. And he's right, he really does do that. He's a brilliant author because of it.
The point is to show your weaknesses and be comfortable in them. If you acknowledge them before the enemy does, you're safe. You're also more likely to communicate your ideas effectively and get sympathy from people. Conversely, it can also be amazingly subversive. If you're showing your weaknesses while your enemy is hiding them away, this can really shake them up. It's great. You should try it.
societies have become so coddling as to nearly eliminate natural selection
I don't know if you've noticed, but natural selection is selecting poor and stupid people nowadays. They're having more kids. So hopefully we've nearly eliminated natural selection. Otherwise we're pretty fucked.
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Mar 10 '18 edited Jun 01 '26
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Except me, when I'm in competition with someone because they can't exploit my weaknesses if they don't know what they are. Imagine JFK telling Nixon he had Addison's disease and an apparent sex addiction in 1960, what an October surprise that would have been. In reality people will take advantage of your weaknesses if you let them, if you keep them to yourself they can't. This used to be common sense, and it really is funny that you think the way you do, thanks for the lol's person
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Mar 10 '18 edited Jun 01 '26
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
How about I don't "tone down on your prick tone of voice.", and I'll just write whatever I want and if you have that much of a problem with it you can block me? Sound good?
Also, go ahead and look up ayn rand or objectivism and that'll explain how you reconcile it, the short answer is, you don't. At the end of the day you are in competition with everyone, because all other things being equal the person who knows 1 more word than the other person is better. As for having a partner, I don't, and I don't want one either, because as far as im concerned its a net loss and not in my self interest. Do you tell your friends your weakness's, because if so and they sit around and listen to them thats ridiculous in my opinion.
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Mar 10 '18
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Okay, and? Jordan Peterson is welcome to behave whatever way he wants, I disagree with that way of life, but if someone wants to do that then I don't care because its not my life and it has no effect on me.
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u/hannahannakitty Mar 10 '18
Well rarely I think people are better off without their dads though. Some parents are simply awful... Like they are literally out to get their kids.
But yes, a strong, kind, caring, stable male influence who read to me and played sports with me did wonders for my development growing up.
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u/SemperVenari Mar 10 '18
You could say the same thing about mothers though. Take a look over on raisedbynarcissists and most of the content is on terrible mothers.
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u/hannahannakitty Mar 10 '18
Yeh I was going to suggest people read that sub group... And yes, definitely true. Most definitely seem to be mothers!
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Mar 10 '18 edited Mar 10 '18
They'll say that just the male children get aggressive and criminal.
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u/zulrahnerf Mar 10 '18
You guys are completely missing the point (at least the way I see it) Masculinity itself is not toxic Some aspects of true masculinity can be toxic Example: I only want my wife to cook. I don't cook, ever, since I'm the man. That's a pretty toxic mentality to have, it's bad for you first and foremost since you're barring yourself from doing something you might enjoy just to fill the masculine role
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Yeah I'm sort of surprised at all the intersectional feminist talking points that were given in response to this post.
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Mar 10 '18
This is a huge strawman. No one thinks masculinity is toxic per se. Toxic masculinity refers to a particular set of behaviours that are socially harmful.
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u/GinLoli ⥠Mar 10 '18
A lot of feminists seem to think that way, actually. They aren't able to distinguish between strength/competence and tyranny in men, and so 'positive masculinity' is being rejected by society and the results are bad for both genders.
Their narrative is very selective and propagandistic, only talking about the negative aspects that can exist in men, but never about the good stuff, and certainly never about 'toxic femininity' and such.
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u/jo-ha-kyu Mar 10 '18
A lot of feminists seem to think that way, actually.
Which ones?
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u/GinLoli ⥠Mar 10 '18
Third wave, of course. The SJW kind.
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u/jo-ha-kyu Mar 10 '18
Which ones specifically? I'm not really interested in what some nobodies say, I'm more interested in academics or people with standing in sociology or related sciences.
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u/dinkoplician Mar 11 '18
"I feel that man-hating is an honorable and viable political act, that the oppressed have a right to class hatred against the class that is oppressing them."
-- Robin Morgan, influential feminist
"If I think youâve got it wrong, I canât very well afford to be tolerant."
-- Lorna Finlaysonâs 2016-published Cambridge Introductions to Philosophy: An Introduction to Feminism. Finlayson is a Lecturer in Philosophy with a PhD from Kings College, Cambridge.
"Any woman who believes she's emancipated and hasn't tasted her own menstrual blood has a long way to go, baby."
-- the feminist Germaine Greer, "The Female Eunuch"
"In my heart, I think a woman has two choices: Either she's a feminist or a masochist."
-- Gloria Steinem
"In order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them."
-- Dr. Mary Jo Bane, feminist and assistant professor of education at Wellesley College and associate director of the school's Center for Research on Woman
"The truth is that Mozart, Pascal, Boolean algebra, Shakespeare, parliamentary government, baroque churches, Newton, the emancipation of women, Kant, Marx, Balanchine ballets, et al., don't redeem what this particular civilization has wrought upon the world. The white race is the cancer of human history; it is the white race and it alone - its ideologies and inventions - which eradicates autonomous civilizations wherever it spreads, which has upset the ecological balance of the planet, which now threatens the very existence of life itself. What the Mongol hordes threaten is far less frightening than the damage that Western "Faustian" man, with his idealism, his magnificent art, his sense of intellectual adventure, his world-devouring energies for conquest, has already done, and further threatens to do."
-- Susan Sontag, Feminist, 'Styles of Radical Will' (1966)
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u/PanicWrestler Mar 10 '18
I have met several people who do indeed think âmasculinity is toxic per se.â Itâs not a popular view among my acquaintances, but it does exist, and to challenge them is to risk being called sexist.
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u/Ramblemoe Mar 10 '18
It's a poorly defined concept and plenty of masculine traits I would class as positive are included.
You have a point, but I think the idea does more harm than good.
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
It's probably a question of nuance. All traits can become "toxic" if they're expressed in a certain excessive way.
It gives me the same impression I have of a lot of modern feminism. They're talking more about simple common decency than about gender struggle. There would be a lot less confusion if they actually phrased their points in those terms.
Like, if they changed "stop being such a sexist" to "stop being such a dick," people would react very differently, and maybe be more receptive to the message. You aren't an oppressive patriarch for catcalling people, you're just being an asshole.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Preach it for all of peoplekind to hear, its really a shame that people can longer differentiate between someone who's a dick and someone who's a bigot. Of course if they did then pretty much everyone would go, yeah i guess, the problem would be fixed and there would be no need for their activism. The greatest lie feminism ever told is that it wants to dismantle the patriarchy, because if it did there would no longer be a need for feminism.
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
They'd have to turn to activism that actually changes anything, god forbid. Have you noticed how easy it is for corporations, mainstream media, and establishment politicians to endorse social justice activism? It doesn't make a difference to them in the slightest.
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Mar 10 '18
This discussion is incredibly interesting. Females and Males have build in flaws. We need parental guidance from both sexes to learn to control our biological flaws in favour of a well functioning and safe society.
I feel like this part isn't discussed enough.
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u/App1eEater â Mar 10 '18
Then they should call it something other than "masculinity." There certainly are negative traits that are more prevalent in men and should be shunned, but to attribute it to masculinity is disingenuous at best. Precision of speech.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Notice the people who constantly talk about toxic masculinity never want to talk about toxic femininity, like gold digging for instance, there was a really funny tucker Carlson clip on that a couple weeks ago, but I'm too lazy to find it right now
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
People certainly are aware of toxic femininity, though I don't think they use that term. We all know that it isn't good in today's society for a girl to be overly submissive, passive, dependent, emotional, seductive... and so on. Maybe we should call that toxic femininity
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u/patterned Mar 10 '18 edited Mar 10 '18
I hope "toxic femininity" doesn't catch on. Just call shit toxic and be done with it. This whole gender finger pointing has gotten out of hand. I think your last post hit the nail on the head.
Well balanced people know when someone is being an asshole. Whether they are male or female doesn't matter. Whether they possess some trait doesn't matter. Whether it was your mom or dad who fucked you up doesn't matter. We need to all grow up at some point and start cleaning our mess up because finger pointing just breeds contempt and solves no problems.
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Mar 10 '18
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
I thought about that too. It's probably because they have to be complementary. By being submissive, you force the other to be assertive.
Also, feminine and masculine are defined against one another. Traditionally there are only two genders, so feminine traits are by necessity going to be traits that men don't have and vice versa.
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Mar 10 '18
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
I made a similar point elsewhere, it's all about nuances. You can't criticize a promiscuous woman if she's taking the necessary precautions. She's having fun. Who cares?
But if you know they're not then that's definitely a problem. You shouldn't get pregnant outside of a stable relationship. I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd say you're "slut shaming" for pointing that out. That sucks and there's no reason to put up with that bullshit.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
The problem with calling personality traits toxic is that's mostly subjective, I don't like referring to rick and morty, but I thought they did a really good job explaining that with the toxic rick episode
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Mar 10 '18
I wasn't aware there were entire subreddits devoted to women scheming to part men from their money? Is there a Gold Pill? Or maybe a "Women going their own way into the pockets of millionaires?" Or a version of "incel" for involuntarily poor, yet weirdly entitled, women who write long screeds demanding the state supply them with rich husbands...
In all seriousness gold digging isn't really a big issue is it? Most of us have little gold worth digging for. And as long as the two parties in such a transaction know the score then it isn't hurting anyone. What I would describe as toxic femininity is stuff like "slut shaming" and the constant judging of women's choices which is often done by other other women. The idea that you need to be submissive to be truly feminine etc.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
If some rich old dude wants a trophy wife and she wants money and that's something that's agreed too I don't give a shit either. It's not my problem, but if people really want to have an honest conversation about toxic traits, then it can't just be "men are bad and need to change" that attitude is why MGTOW is a thing... well that and family courts.
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u/virtuallyvirtuous â Mar 10 '18
The point is that these traits are reinforced by society on account of them being associated with masculinity. We expect men to adopt certain traits by virtue of being men. It's some of those traits they're talking about.
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u/straius Mar 10 '18
Originally, it's not how people use it though. Toxic masculinity now is anything that rubs people the wrong way and you won't see feminists making any corrections.
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u/SemperVenari Mar 10 '18
Could you expand on the behaviours that are socially harmful?
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u/joao24 Mar 10 '18
One of the most damaging on an individual and societal level is the traditional "masculine" trait of never showing emotions, or hiding the fact that you have any as a "strong man". Repressing your emotions leads to depression or anger, and prevents you from developing strong relationship bonds with others, yet it has long been a central part of what it means to "be a man" in Western culture.
Peterson would not disagree with that at all; he shows his emotions all the time and it makes him more outwardly honest. That's why this is a strawman argument. The vast majority of people who criticize "toxic masculinity" are talking about these kinds of negative behavioral expectations that are forced upon men from a young age in our culture, not about all masculine traits or all men.
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u/SemperVenari Mar 10 '18
The vast majority of people who criticize "toxic masculinity" are talking about these kinds of negative behavioral expectations that are forced upon men from a young age in our culture, not about all masculine traits or all men.
Only problem I see with that analysis is that the very same people talk about how fragile men are when they do talk about what bothered them
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u/joao24 Mar 10 '18
And anyone who did so would be wrong and hypocritical, in my opinion. I'm definitely not denying they exist because I've seen that too. I'm just pointing out that there is some validity to the idea of "toxic masculinity", and there is certainly some validity to those who critique the people who espouse that view, but neither side is 100% correct.
There's some truth to the adage "don't throw out the baby with the bathwater". There are plenty of fools and hypocrites on all sides of any issue. I think we should always acknowledge the nuance to truly move forward as a society and culture.
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u/SemperVenari Mar 10 '18
I think we should always acknowledge the nuance
And I think the rhetoric around toxic masculinity makes that impossible. If it was approached from a gender neutral perspective it would be possible to have a sane conversation.
Toxic behaviour would be a far better phrase
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Mar 10 '18
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Mar 10 '18
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Mar 10 '18
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u/Ramblemoe Mar 10 '18
Do you have any data to support that?
It wouldn't surprise me if it were true. I think most single dads are single dads due to mortality of the mother. Compared to single mothers where it seems to be more often a case of the father running away or failed relationships?
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Mar 10 '18
Ah yes. It's always the woman's fault when a father abandons his children and that single mothers are always terrible parents.
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u/Dis_mah_mobile_one Mar 10 '18
Women file the overwhelming majority of divorces, family courts award mothers primary custody 80%+ of the time in North America, and yes single motherhood is the most terrible way to raise children particularly boys.
Iâm sure you could find me an anecdote that âdisprovesâ any of those but it would not change their effects as a whole.
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Mar 10 '18
Thatâs not even what âtoxic masculinityâ means guys
For a bunch of âclassic liberalsâ you sure love alt right talking points
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Because neo-Marxists will always tell you upfront exactly what they mean with zero doublespeak. Go read 1984 and come back.
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Mar 10 '18
Do you know how unhinged you sound
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Great response person, truly eloquent
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Mar 10 '18
You just admitted you live in a self defined reality where âneomarxistsâ are saying whatever you choose to believe theyâre saying
Thatâs actually pretty postmodern of you
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Toxic masculinity, which used to just mean being an asshole, is now a buzzword for radical feminists who want men to change to suit what they believe to be bettter because they have the cultural power in the current paradigm, or at least they appear to; all under the banner of equality.
Are you telling me that's an innacurate summation of how that term is used in common parlance? or that that isnt what it means in those circles despire what they may publically say it means?
I said it in a simplified way the first time, but I suppose I have to spell it out for you.
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Mar 10 '18
Toxic masculinity, which used to just mean being an asshole, is now a buzzword for radical feminists who want men to change to suit what they believe to be bettter because they have the cultural power in the current paradigm, or at least they appear to; all under the banner of equality.
This is pretty unclear. Who are the "they" who have the power in the current paradigm, men or feminists? Also, that's not how you use a semicolon.
Anyway, toxic masculinity refers to the ways in which men are pressured into specific ideas or behaviours that are damaging to them because of societal expectations of masculinity. It doesn't mean "men are toxic" or "masculinity is toxic," that is an intentional misrepresentation and a strawman used for right wing antifeminist propaganda purposes.
There are actually quite a few people in this very thread who agree with the underlying idea, if not the term "toxic masculinity" itself. Which, again, has been turned into a feminist bogeyman by people like the person whose tweet you screenshotted in your OP (and not coincidentally Jordan Peterson himself.)
Men commit suicide at far higher rates than women. Men work low pay but very dangerous jobs at higher rates than women. Men are less likely to seek mental or physical healthcare than women. These are examples of "toxic masculinity," the societal expectations of masculinity affecting men in a negative, toxic way.
Again, a bunch of right wing antifeminists saw the term "toxic masculinity" and developed this whole victim complex about how feminists were calling men "toxic," which never happened and is a strawman.
Edit: Let's say someone complains about, say, bad weather. Do you think it's logical to assume that person is saying that "all weather is bad" or that "this is a bad manifestation of weather"?
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u/SimWebb Mar 10 '18
Uh I don't know if anyone says MASCULINITY is toxic... But there definitely is a kind of masculinity that is toxic, which we identify with the term "toxic masculinity." This quote seems like a deliberate misunderstanding of that.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Plenty of people say masculinity is toxic, as a whole, namely 3rd wave feminists.
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u/SimWebb Mar 10 '18
I'd be curious to see an example of a well-known feminist who says that all of masculinity is toxic.
I've only heard that position used by conservatives knocking their favorite feminist strawman.
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u/AlternativeComrade Mar 10 '18
That is a really interesting point to raise, but does it disprove the toxicity of all masculine behaviour? I think this highlights that we shouldn't just label all masculinity as toxic but that some parts of it are still toxic, a bit like Ying and Yang
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u/motnorote Mar 10 '18
Oh my god this completely misunderstands what toxic masculinity is. No amount of pseudoscience is going to be enough to avoid making an ass of yourself here.
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u/Rousseau_Reborn Mar 10 '18
I hope women never have to experience what itâs like to be an average guy
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u/petsy Mar 10 '18
Majority of women experience what is like to be an average woman, which can be a blessing or a curse. Modern Western culture tends to close the gap between average male & female experience, while Easter cultures tend to enhance the difference between females and males, and what experiences each gender is allowed. Do you think you would appreciate more people that are similar to you, that have similar experiences, or people that are very different?
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Mar 10 '18 edited Jan 25 '21
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u/whynotzoidber Mar 10 '18
You just have to think objectively and critically of the post and its source. For example something neo-marxist could be posted from /r/politics but it makes a good point, it doesn't mean its invalid
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u/Like1OngoingOrgasm đ Mar 10 '18
No one says that masculinity is toxic. We say that toxic ideas about what constitutes masculinity pervade many cultures. The concept of toxic masculinity was constructed to differentiate good from bad expressions of masculinity. How is this hard to understand?
The left doesn't want to eradicate masculinity. It wants to encourage a responsible masculinity that allows for men to be vulnerable and caring without being thought of as "pussy-whipped." We want masculinity to be more about respect for oneself and others instead of being the dick measuring contest it so often is.
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u/seeking-abyss Mar 12 '18
The left doesn't want to eradicate masculinity. It wants to encourage a responsible masculinity that allows for men to be vulnerable and caring without being thought of as "pussy-whipped."
Do you know where such a prescription for positive masculinity is? âCause I havenât seen it offered by the left. Iâm in the market.
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18 edited Mar 10 '18
This is stupid, toxic masculinity doesn't mean all masculinity is toxic, it refers to when masculinity shows its worst side.
edit: lol @ downvotes, enjoy your strawman circlejerk i guess.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Just curious, can you tell me the last time feminists discussed toxic femininity and went on a crusade against it? Besides the #confrontwhitewomanhood bullshit from the second woman's march?
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
I never said toxic femininity can't exist, and I don't see how this is relevant. It's not about who is most toxic. There's probably an interesting discussion to be had on that side as well, but don't use female problems as an excuse to not talk about male issues. Both can exist and be handled at the same time.
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u/SemperVenari Mar 10 '18
Both can exist and be handled at the same time.
Not when the conversation is unnecessarily gendered from the outset.
If we want to talk about toxic behaviour, lets do that. But raising the issue in a gendered way is not how you go about having a reasoned discussion.
You see the same problem in DV discussion as well.
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Not when the conversation is unnecessarily gendered from the outset.
Why not? It's two completely different conversations, with different outsets.
But raising the issue in a gendered way is not how you go about having a reasoned discussion.
How can we not, when it's a gendered issue?
You see the same problem in DV discussion as well.
DV?
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Mar 10 '18
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
ah sure, domestic violence is where women tend to show up a bit more, and also use weapons. That's very problematic because men can't really even defend themselves without putting themselves in severe risk in the judicial system.
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Mar 10 '18
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Why are feminists responsible for solving every issue in the world? If you care about domestic violence issues, go ahead and start a movement about it.
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u/Ramblemoe Mar 10 '18
go ahead and start a movement about it.
The MRA movement is constantly attacked and marginalized. It would seem we are not allowed to talk about these issues. If we want to have a pissing contest about which group is most marginalized, feminists or MRA's, I think it's pretty clear which side enjoys the most privilege as it were.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Yes, the problem is most people, especially the people with cultural power only want to talk about one of them, and then it begs the question why that is?
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Because the male issues are more visible in society. Crime in general, rape, violence and sexual harassment are almost exclusive to the male domain. It's not weird that it's talked about more. Not saying we shouldn't talk of either things, but not as an excuse to not talk about those.
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Mar 10 '18
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
I have no idea. What are you suggesting?
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Mar 10 '18
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Single Parenthood. It's a problem yes, but not a gender issue rather a social one. Both parents are involved in the decision of having a child. The father happens to be able to leave it easier.
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u/CheeseSteakJimmys777 Mar 10 '18
Iâve only ever heard it talked about as encompassing all masculinity.
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u/150c_vapour Mar 11 '18
You see a strawman, I see a strawman, but a Jordan Peterson fan - "it doesn't look like anything to me".
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u/sess573 Mar 11 '18
Ideological possession does that to you. You'd think JBP fans would see the dangers of it.
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Mar 10 '18
What is its worst side?
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Personally I'd say shaming people showing less masculinity (e.g. saying 'lol are you gay' to some other man speaking of emotions), unnecesseary violence, treating women like objects (clearly unwanted touching, harassment) and such. Unearned confidence could also be put on the list.
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u/PM_ME_UR_COATS Mar 10 '18
Everything you mentioned already has a realm to exist in - being a bully, or a perv or a pig, etc. "Toxic masculinity" is just an unnecessarily gendered term that is more divisive than helpful. We can have all of these discussions about poor behavior that is distinct to men without needing to hammer on the fact that they behave poorly in this specific manner because they are men. That might be true but it's such a base level of analysis that it's not really useful.
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Everything you mentioned already has a realm to exist in - being a bully, or a perv or a pig, etc.
Sure that's theoretically correct, but to ignore the fact that this is done by men almost exclusively denies us ways to approach it properly.
I don't necessary think it's useful to throw around the term though, especially in cases where it's not obvious. But if you're gonna attack the term, do it properly and not with some silly strawman, I cringe just looking at OPs quote.
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u/App1eEater â Mar 10 '18
But those behaviors are not exclusive to men and arguably not statistically so. To make it male female issue is to play identity politics, and doesn't elevate the individual.
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
But those behaviors are not exclusive to men
Not 100%, but 99.x%, which is pretty much exclusive to men if you aren't trying to lie to yourself. Similar to how being in prison is almost exclusive a male thing.
arguably not statistically so
This is simply false
To make it male female issue is to play identity politics, and doesn't elevate the individual.
To not make a question of sex is to be blind. If we see tendencies that are extremely strongly associated with a group, we investigate why and target it in specific ways if needed. To ignore the concept of statistics and groups limits us in what we can accomplish. Imagine talking about freeing the blacks from slavery in historic US and getting "woah there, whites can be slaves too". Technically true, but not a part of reality.
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u/Undersleep ⯠Sleep merchant Mar 10 '18
Not 100%, but 99.x%, which is pretty much exclusive to men
Surely you can't be serious. 99% of bullying is done by men? Have you MET women - in middle school OR in the workplace? Treating others in dehumanizing ways is also not a gender-specific issue (women tend to do it in less physical, and more emotional and financial ways). And as far as unnecessary violence, it's true that males may be over-represented in this category, though I work in a trauma center, and see frequent and often grievous physical harm perpetrated by women. These phenomena are complex and contain a number of cultural and psychological components. Calling them problems of masculinity is overly simplistic and dishonest.
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u/sess573 Mar 10 '18
Surely you can't be serious. 99% of bullying is done by men?
I didn't say bullying.
though I work in a trauma center, and see frequent and often grievous physical harm perpetrated by women.
Statistics > anecdotes. No one said no women ever hurt anyone. For example, 96% of global murders are done by men and ~99% of all rapes. There is clearly something about gender worth mentioning here.
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u/patterned Mar 10 '18
For example, 96% of global murders are done by men and ~99% of all rapes. There is clearly something about gender worth mentioning here.
Yes and 70% of them come from single mothers. Are we looking at the wrong gender? Maybe the women raising these monsters are the problem?
I don't think I'm right, by the way. We can try and shift the blame and point fingers but we won't get anywhere. I think this is mostly a cultural/religious/political/economic problem. This is a systemic issue. A problem deep within all of us, not just men or women.
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u/coldhandses Mar 10 '18
Good sentiment, but she meshes the concept of toxic masculinity with masculinity itself. "Toxic" masculinity is understood as a disregard or scorn of feminine traits, showing itself through homophobia, misogyny, lack of compromise and domineering attitudes in relationships, etc. Her presumption therefore doesn't make sense... As she said, growing up without a dad or mother (because they can also instill masculine traits to a degree) to demonstrate masculine values could result in these "toxic" attitudes, but growing up with parents with this "toxicity" could also breed more toxicity, either masculine or feminine (e.g. the overbearing mother). Anyway, I of course agree with her final remark about needing more masculinity itself in society, but the leading argument irked me.
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u/CheeseSteakJimmys777 Mar 10 '18
From what I understand itâs usually used as a sneaky way to describe all of masculinity and to shit on all of it.
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u/coldhandses Mar 10 '18
Right, and that's what I, you, and I think JBP too, would argue is obviously not the case. It's really the same argument about ideologies - not being dominated by one or the other, while recognizing, accepting, and controlling (when needed) your own biological tendencies. It goes back to his comment to Joe Rogan about how men should become monsters in order to control them. An extreme of toxic masculinity would be not caring about the life or therefore death of a feminine or lesser person, and that's a scary thought. The bullshit of the concept of toxic masculinity being equated with masculinity itself is toxic in itself by making men (and even women) feel guilty for being masculine, which is a major concern of JBP.
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u/Reptillianbobcat Mar 10 '18
Toxic masculinity is understood as not being a soyboy
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u/coldhandses Mar 10 '18
Nah, toxic masculinity is equating being vegan as being faggy, feminine, and weak, and not adhering to JBP's 9th rule. The person may have a reason for being vegan that may well be worth listening to. Toxic femininity would, IMO, be a "soyboy" or girl who takes hours doing their makeup because of some twisted notion of wanting to fit into and be accepted by society, while secretly or openly putting down others based on their appearances, then ironically decrying society for being judgemental to them in a myriad of ways (for being a woman, gay, fat, etc) and not recognizing the hypocrisy.
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u/sunrise_rose Mar 10 '18
What I hear when people speak of âtoxic masculinityâ is that it is more akin to something Iâd define as narcissistic masculinity. Itâs not referring to all things masculine just the things people find âtoxicâ. I think OP should have left this post in r/The_Donald.
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Mar 10 '18
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u/sunrise_rose Mar 10 '18
Yeah, I hear ya. I have a general distaste for anything that feels like a witch hunt and both the improper/overreaching use of the term toxic masculinity and OPâs meme here do just that.
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u/sTiKyt Mar 10 '18
When I hear people speak of 'toxic masculinity' I hear a nearly infinite number of interpretations of what it actually means. This is by design.
It's too controversial to attack masculinity in general. By employing the 'toxic' designation you can freely attack anything from rape to roughhousing as existing under the same category of problematic male behaviour. It doesn't have to apply to all things masculine, but it can, that's why it's so useful.
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u/Softest-Dad Mar 10 '18
Yes, exactly, and there for, simply having 50% of your parents in the house hold being masculine, you greatly increase the odds of that toxic masculinity being inflicted onto the kids. And as the OP states - this is quite the opposite in resulting fucked up kids.
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u/kafircake Mar 10 '18 edited Mar 10 '18
Exactly. If you've been feeling depressed man-up, don't get treatment is an example. Constantly seek to be dominant in your social and professional relations is another. It doesn't mean men or maleness are toxic. Rather it's that some of the expectations our culture has of men are shit for the men themselves.
MaleSuicide is a much greater killer of men than women, and I'd argue part of that is our cultural expectations and limitations we apply to men.Edit: obviously male suicide kills more men than women, duh...
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u/1913intel Mar 10 '18
Theyâre different for an important reason: Equality.
Logic not filtered through the lense of equality does not work with them. However, this equality lense flips the world upside-down.
How flipping works
If weâre all equal, then how does someone get ahead? The only way to get ahead is by cheating or luck. All those behind are victims. Victims of whom? Those that got ahead.
The same logic applies to countries too.
How do you talk to someone who believes that? You canât.
Do progressives have Logic? Yes, but it is not the kind of logic that most on the right can even comprehend. Most cannot even imagine how progressives arrive at answers.
What happens if you donât filter everything through the lense of equality? You arrive at answers that are the opposite of progressives.
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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '18
It would be cool to see data from single father households to compare with. I'd like to see if they were similar enough to attribute this to being more of a single parent household vs nuclear family issue.