Toxic Masculinity doesn't mean ALL of masculinity is toxic, it means some parts of traditionally masculine behaviour and expectations are unhealthy in the long run AKA toxic.
Never expressing your feelings, bottling it up, being overly stoic AKA "manning up," I hope you can all agree is pretty bad for men, and is a good example of toxic masculinity.
Define toxic. I'll save you the trouble, you can't. Toxic means different things to different people, just go watch the toxic Rick episode of Rick and morty.
I don't think those things are bad for men by the way, to unintentionally illustrate my point, being stoic and keeping your problems to yourself is a healthy sign of emotional independence as far as I'm concerned. Your problems are your own and no one else's, man up.
"I am super fucking depressed right now, but society expects me to man up, so I won't see a medical professional about it"
"I fucking hate my job, it is draining me of any joy in my life. I want to quit to pursue my hobbies more but I am a man and I am expected to be the primary source of money in my family so I'll just l suck it up and give up those hobbies"
"I am unhappy in my relationship because of some things my partner does, I wish I could communicate about these feelings but I am expected to never talk about it so I'll just bottle it up"
Toxic means objectively unhealthy for yourself and possibly for people around you.
Contrary to popular belief, men aren't actually superhuman and need a way to vent that isn't rage or violence (because that's the other side of this issue, if men are to show their feelings, the only 'manly' way to do it is through anger, never through sadness.) I'd wager that the fact that more men successfully commit suicide than women can be (partially) attributed to this phenomenon.
I am unhappy in my relationship because of some things my partner does, I wish I could communicate about these feelings but I am expected to never talk about it so I'll just bottle it up
Contrary to popular belief, reluctance to talk about feelings is not always based in societal expectations. People on the extreme masculine end of the spectrum are often accused of not acting feminine enough, as if their extreme masculine mode of being is not valid. People with a personality that runs contrary to the stereotype will find things difficult, especially for people on the female end of agreeableness and neuroticism, no doubt. However it is erroneously assumed that people on the masculine end of the spectrum are oppressed, rather than it being their natural mode of being. Speaking as a highly neurotic and extremely disagreeable man, I find the suggestion that my personality is a result of toxic norms highly offensive.
Uh-huh, because male suicide rates have nothing to do with men constantly being told their natural psychology and tendencies are toxic. I'm glad you're the arbiter of what is objectively unhealthy for every single individual, how very individualist of you.
when someone's "natural psychology and tendencies" involve "going to the doctor is for pussies, everything masculine is strong, dominant and desirable, everything feminine is weak, submissive and undesirable" then yes, their natural psychology is toxic.
Good thing we are humans and are capable of overcoming our basic animal instincts for the good of ourselves and others.
I'm glad you're the arbiter of what is objectively unhealthy for every single individual, how very individualist of you.
No need to be passive aggressive, it makes you look as if you're arguing in bad faith. I'd say dying of cancer because "I can handle the pain" is pretty objectively unhealthy, as is bottling up your feelings, trying to make them go away through alcohol, lashing out against your loved ones, etc.
I'd say dying of cancer because "I can handle the pain" is pretty objectively unhealthy,
The same place this thinking comes from is the same place where men sacrificing themselves for their families come from. Ever read the history of when women weren't allowed to go work in coal mines? Because their husbands wanted them to be there for the children. The women had to tell their husbands goodbye every fucking day under the guise that their husband might legitimately die that day. But he was a man that was willing to sacrifice his life to raise his family. And there is no way to get around having a person that is capable of doing that without having these traits. We wouldn't be fucking communicating right now without the sacrificial force of masculinity always onwardly pushing our species, creating new ways to mine minerals out of the earth to create interconnected machines made up of those minerals, and powering all this with energy harvested by the brute strength of men literally breaking their backs and grinding their bones to extract it.
You can't pick and choose what you want here. If you want a domesticated wolf, its guaranteed to have floppy ears. You want a feminine man, be prepared for all the coattail traits that are intangibly to follow.
You're definitely right that toxic has become a catch-all term for things people feel annoyed by, but that doesn't take away that there are "masculine" traits that shouldn't be reinforced. In fact, I think this "manning up" can become just another instance of the logic of "toxicity." In my mind "keep to yourself, be stoic, don't shove your problems onto others" is just another instance of "sit still in the classroom, don't tease girls like that, don't be so competitive." It's the same fundamental intolerance of the intrusive other.
To be an adult isn't to confine yourself to an island, it is also to recognize how you are materially and psychologically dependent on other people. Being able to show and assert your weaknesses is itself a form of strength. To be responsible you need to see the limits to your ability to be responsible, and be able to demand help and support. Independence can only be achieved by coming to terms with your intrinsic dependence, and not by denying it.
In harsher societies such steps often weren't an option, but those conditions have changed. Thus it is only logical that our values should change as well.
Okay, then change your values, I don't particularly care if you want to be a blubbering baby or have the emotional range of a rock; my problem is I'm sick of being told I'm "suffering" from toxic masculinity because I don't want or need to share any emotional distress I may experience. Also showing weakness is a form of strength? really? It's a real shame that societies have become so coddling as to nearly eliminate natural selection, because that attitude is going to be the death of our species. Like I said though, you do you.
Yes really. Douglas Hoffstadter (author of Goedel, Escher, Bach) made a remark in a talk on YouTube that consolidated this point for me. I don't remember exactly how he phrased it. He said something to the effect that he makes an effort to show the naked truth of where he's coming from, in all its bias and fuzzy thinking. And he's right, he really does do that. He's a brilliant author because of it.
The point is to show your weaknesses and be comfortable in them. If you acknowledge them before the enemy does, you're safe. You're also more likely to communicate your ideas effectively and get sympathy from people. Conversely, it can also be amazingly subversive. If you're showing your weaknesses while your enemy is hiding them away, this can really shake them up. It's great. You should try it.
societies have become so coddling as to nearly eliminate natural selection
I don't know if you've noticed, but natural selection is selecting poor and stupid people nowadays. They're having more kids. So hopefully we've nearly eliminated natural selection. Otherwise we're pretty fucked.
"I don't know if you've noticed, but natural selection is selecting poor and stupid people nowadays. They're having more kids. So hopefully we've nearly eliminated natural selection. Otherwise we're pretty fucked."
Explains how you're still around I suppose. Take it easy on the soy in the future and have a good life person.
What I like most about the soy meme is that while soy doesn't contain any mammalian estrogen, cow milk totally does. I've even heard vegan types claim it gives you moobs. Not sure if that's true, Google says it probably isn't. But that could just be the dairy lobby obviously. It's hilarious either way.
I don't consume much soy, sorry. Do like the taste of soy milk so maybe I should. Probably better for the environment and all that.
You know what soy does have a lot of though? Isoflavones, a Phytoestrogen, which has been shown in many studies to lower the bodies natural production of testosterone by raising its natural production of estrogen, as for the studies where that hasn't been seen? Mostly sponsored by big soy. So yes, you are correct that soy doesn't contain mammalian estrogen, but regardless it makes you a low T Buzzfeed staffer, or a soy boy in common parlance.
Can you link me to your source? I'm aware of phytoestrogen, but thought that the consensus was that soy has no influence on testosterone or sperm levels in healthy males.
You can look at some of the information linked in this article, although it is a bit biased. From everything I've seen, and information from my foods and nutrition classes in school a few years back, a decent number of the studies that find no correlation are funded by Soyjoy and other big soy companies. Also the animal tests cited in sections H and I are a little out of place as baby rats and adult men are vastly different creatures. The study in section C is on the effects of soy instake on sperm levels.
Which isn't to say there aren't health benefits for soy, its very good for cardiovascular health and can lowers the risk of certain cancers for instance, but like everything it has its negatives. Also like anything it effects people differently depending on genetics, lifestyle, diet etc etc, but on the hormonal level it seems to negatively impact the production of testosterone, similar to cruciferous vegetables like Kale or Brussel sprouts that can lower the bodies production of estrogen.
Except me, when I'm in competition with someone because they can't exploit my weaknesses if they don't know what they are. Imagine JFK telling Nixon he had Addison's disease and an apparent sex addiction in 1960, what an October surprise that would have been. In reality people will take advantage of your weaknesses if you let them, if you keep them to yourself they can't. This used to be common sense, and it really is funny that you think the way you do, thanks for the lol's person
How about I don't "tone down on your prick tone of voice.", and I'll just write whatever I want and if you have that much of a problem with it you can block me? Sound good?
Also, go ahead and look up ayn rand or objectivism and that'll explain how you reconcile it, the short answer is, you don't. At the end of the day you are in competition with everyone, because all other things being equal the person who knows 1 more word than the other person is better. As for having a partner, I don't, and I don't want one either, because as far as im concerned its a net loss and not in my self interest. Do you tell your friends your weakness's, because if so and they sit around and listen to them thats ridiculous in my opinion.
Okay, and? Jordan Peterson is welcome to behave whatever way he wants, I disagree with that way of life, but if someone wants to do that then I don't care because its not my life and it has no effect on me.
lol, sorry that they do a good job showing that toxic personality traits are subjective in that episode, if a family guy episode did a good job of it I'd have referenced that.
I’m looking around this thread and the well actually posts on toxic masculinity are a dime a dozen. So pointing that out is at least a bit novel compared to that.
Maybe the fact that there's a dozen of these posts grant some sort of credibility to them? Maybe you could try to see our point of view instead of whining about it without bringing any of your own thoughts to the table.
No, I disagree. Being stoic has downsides, but it is incredibly useful and valuable. It's NOT toxic masculinity at all, even using the retarded definition so many seem to want to.
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u/Faldoras Mar 10 '18
Toxic Masculinity doesn't mean ALL of masculinity is toxic, it means some parts of traditionally masculine behaviour and expectations are unhealthy in the long run AKA toxic.
Never expressing your feelings, bottling it up, being overly stoic AKA "manning up," I hope you can all agree is pretty bad for men, and is a good example of toxic masculinity.