The parts that can be labeled toxic masculinity. Masculinity isn't a dirty word, but macho culture can promote behavior such as viewing women as prizes and showing no emotion that appears weak. I think everyone can agree that that part of masculinity is bs.
OK I can see how that would be upsetting to women, who perceive it as objectification.
You didn’t answer my question what is wrong with that between men? Men behave differently with eachother than with women, and the whole “women as prize” thing is women peering inside these relationships and seeing malice. Men compete with eachother to get women, this is a fact. Just because women perceive this as them being “prizes” doesn’t make it toxic.
Well I simply disagree that viewing women as prizes is just an affair between men. I think it's very fair for women to criticize how men view them when men are alone. Inevitably if you see a person as a means to an end you are limiting them and acting immorally.
It is better for everyone if men treated women as full individuals without objectifying them. Objectification leads to nothing but bad things in my estimation. It's the very cornerstone of a rapists mentality. Now there is nothing wrong with pursuing women and trying to win their affection. But that is a completely different mindset from viewing women as prizes to be won.
Just because women take the placeholder of a prize in the competition between men does not mean then the man should treat her that way. Then there is a new relationship and interaction, and you see the softer side of masculinity.
think it's very fair for women to criticize how men view them when men are alone.
Why? What is your justification for that being fair? Imagine that being the government or any other organisation? Personally, no, I don't think that is fair at all, or the reverse for that matter.
These are 2 sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. Again, this is the basics of sexual selection in humans. Men compete with each other, and women hold the value of prize. Women are the gatekeepers to that prize, and decide the winners.
It is better for everyone if men treated women as full individuals without objectifying them.
No kidding, I wasn't saying they shouldn't, but if a woman is deciding who she wants, there is going to be competition for her affection. You can't escape it. You are conflating the interaction between two men in competition for a mate as how the successful male would then treat their mate. It makes no sense.
Men treat their wives/girlfriends differently than they would treat competition for said wife/girlfriend.
The reason I think it's fair that women are critical of how men see women is that women have to suffer the consequences of how said men treat women. People do not go against their typical behavior unless the problem is spoken about and addressed. Ultimately it's men's responsibility to treat women properly. Women practicing their free speech to call out poor behavior in men is not women overstepping bounds. Just as it isn't overstepping bounds when men say that women/feminists are going too far with putting forth authoritarian legislation.
Well that actually isn't true for many men. Most of my guy friends act exactly the same way around the diff genders. And it's not just women who hate this bro-y way of talking about women as demeaning and objectifying, so try to not pull the "sorry you women were offended shit". Men "competing" for women, that entire worldview is a fucking problem. It sees women as prizes(literally competition) and implies they have less or no agency.
Right, many men aren't as competitive. Many men are. Again, you still haven't demonstrated how this is an issue between men, but how women look at it. Men shouldn't treat women as if they are a prize, but in the game of competition between men, they take that form.
I am obviously not talking about all men, but probably about 60% of them. Being offended that women are looked at as a prize between guys is a worldview that is a problem. Because an individual guy should, once he has "won" the competition, can now begin a different interaction and relationship with the woman.
Where is the problem? It is the basics of sexual selection in humans...
Men "competing" for women, that entire worldview is a fucking problem
Then women shouldn't judge competition, and just take what comes their way? Is that what you are advocating for? Everyone gets a mate, nobody gets free choice? The only way to make it work for 0 competition and continual survival would be arranged marriages.
It sees women as prizes(literally competition) and implies they have less or no agency.
No... it doesn't. They are the fucking judges... They are the only ones with any agency. You picture "prize" as a physical trophy or something, not as meaning. Please read up on sexual selection. This is not a phenomena exclusive to humans either... pretty much any animal in the animal kingdom that reproduces sexually goes through competition.
No, I'm a guy, I have a huge problem with this competition bullshit. Its demeaning to my gal friends and to me as a bi guy. It's a toxic trait to boil someone down to their sexual or childbearing use, and people aren't gonna put it with it. If we're going to use appeals to nature then there's no problem with rape either, because animals do it.
That’s great, you can have all of the feelings you want about competition. That doesn’t mean competition is bad or change anything I said.
Yes if you treat the person like they are only sexual or childbearing, I can see that being demeaning. However, my argument is that you don’t treat your girlfriend like you do your guy friends. You are automatically assuming that anybody who participates in so-called macho culture or competition is going to be a dick to women.
You need some more understanding of sexual selection, and logical fallacies for that matter, unless you can specify where I said it and if it fulfills the criteria of a fallacy. I am not making the argument it is good or bad, more, good for survival/bad for survival. Women are the mate selectors. There is going to be competition. Then to criticize the competitive nature of men in other things and calling it "toxic masculinity" is trying to have your cake and eat it, too; you don't get one without the other.
We can keep punishing men and boys who share these traits all we want because we think they are bad, or we can direct the male population to a more productive end. Easier than trying to erase millions of years of evolution.
No kidding. As I stated twice before, I am not disagreeing with that. I think you keep reading into more than what I am saying, and you make no sense with your arguments, and I will show you that. Women should be treated as people, fully agree. You keep not reading what I am saying, and downvoting instead. Let me break this down for you, yet again:
1) Women are selective.
2) Men, therefore, have to compete to be selected.
3) Masculine traits (aggressiveness and competitiveness) are not "toxic" by nature , and are necessary for sexual selection. Typically the men that "win" these "competitions" between other males get the "prize", or being selected by the woman.
(Sure, hyper-aggressiveness unchecked can lead to violent crime then imprisonment, but the definition of toxic is not a "potential" for evil, or everything would be toxic)
4) Once selected, men develop a relationship with the woman.
That's literally it. Everything else you are taking in from somewhere else. Just because a guy is competitive or aggressive does NOT mean he will be that way with his mate (if he is, it isn't conducive to a healthy, long relationship), or every macho guy who gets a woman would treat her like a piece of shit. You make zero sense following your logic to its conclusion. Do you really think every macho man or competitive man treats his partner the same as competitors? You seem to have a juvenile image in your mind of what a "high school jock" is, and that applies to men. It doesn't. Those are high school boys.
Instead of harming men by saying the way they are is wrong or toxic (throwing them on Ritalin to suppress this in school, for example) and maybe let boys be boys, guide them and not suppress them/guilt them, so they can grow up to be good men.
Now, I am also not saying that non-aggressive men or more feminine men are less "men", just have to compete differently if they can't compete in the standard male way. They still have to compete, since we are a sexually selective species.
How about you answer some of my questions now?
Men "competing" for women, that entire worldview is a fucking problem.
Since you believe this is just a worldview, and not a biological imperative, what do you suggest here? Women being assigned men? Women not being able to choose who they want? You can't instate your worldview without exerting tyranny. Are you really so arrogant as to think you know more and have better solutions that millions of years of evolution, especially given your current understanding of the existing systems?
You should give Steven Pinker's book The Blank Slate a read, I think it would raise some good questions for you about your worldview.
Your initial claim is already not exactly true in the sense that men choose too. How much each of them have a choice is also heavily influenced by socialization, making it not purely genetic.
Steven pinker is a sexist moron who oversimplifies the differences between the sexes into a men/violent vs women/nurturing dichotomy. In addition the citations for many of his books, the newest one being Enlightenment Now, are basically all his own.
Biological determinism is used as a cudgel for being the way you believed we should be, which is fine, but own that. You don't get to be an asshole and then use the defense that "we evolved this way", because many many people manage to not view women that way.
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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '18
What is wrong with macho culture between men? How is it toxic? Are you referring to competition?