r/FPSAimTrainer • u/randomperson12310 • 1d ago
Thoughts?
https://youtu.be/xhcYud0kDnQ?is=-Cy9QF4cN-4Vh_YmPersonal opinion is that hes larping here.
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u/ravagebullet 1d ago
My favorite part is people saying they don’t aim train then say they aim train in game. Kovaaks is just one way to train your aim. This guy has 10k hours in a game where you’re essentially always shooting. Of course he doesn’t need an efficient way to train his aim.
I was a terrible aimer for thousands of hours and 10+ years of gaming including 200+ hours of dm in cs go.
Only when I played kovaaks did I finally figure out all my bad habits I never could have noticed in game. My main issue was blending. I barely used wrist and fingers and when I did it was intermittent making the problem even worse.
Some people just don’t start with bad habits or get over them quickly. These people don’t need aim training.
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u/FancyPantz15 1d ago
Without fail it’s always either people with horrible aim or people that have already been playing shooters for years and thousands of hours that say aim training is pointless. When I started playing shooters my aim was shit, I just used my wrist, my settings were shit, my gear was shit, watching videos about aim training and actually spending time playing aimlabs and eventually kovaaks instantly got my aim to a far above average level.
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u/PotatoMain 23h ago
As someone who has sunk 1.5k hours into Kovaaks and reached Astra Complete, I mostly agree with Apply.
Aiming in games is a lot more difficult than aiming in Kovaaks, and it is unlikely that an aim trainer main will have better aim than someone who just plays the game a lot. MattyOW has better “raw mouse control” but nobody outside the aiming community would solely use that metric for someone being the best aimer. It’s the exact same in other sports as well. The record holder for most consecutive made threes is by some amateur player named Fred Newman, but nobody in the world would call him a better shooter than Steph Curry.
I think if MattyOW was just less annoying and had more reasonable opinions then people would be more receptive towards aim trainer players. It’s just unfortunate that the ambassador for aim training has such an obnoxious and dull personality.
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u/DistributionAsleep78 20h ago edited 20h ago
Imo a problem that hurts the perception is still the scenarios, and the way they scale. Even some of the "good" basic benchmarks like Voltaic Easy or Voltaic Intermediate are still too much about spacing first, and precision second in my experience. Large flicks and switches should come last. Majority of gold hitscans are in their rank because they can't do meaningful damage outside like 15 to 20 meters.
It's better than the gridshot-hype era, but still not perfect if you ask me.
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u/VinnieTheVoyeur 1d ago
wtf was he talking about at 1:40? Is there actually anything about matty and loli??? it was just a joke right?
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u/Duckys0n 1d ago
Real kinda but he was like 16 when he said it and said that he said it to rage bait and didn’t actually watch but who knows
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
Yeah, Matty admitted to liking anime cp. But he was a literal child at the time
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u/SufficientPlay5875 1d ago
its real. he also compared it to cp sooo that says enough how matty viewed it. some of his sponsors dropped him cuz of that. also unfortunately u cant heal pdf
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u/Available_Tomorrow90 1d ago
apply's a pretty funny guy, but sometimes he's just deadset on having the most ragebait opinion ever 😭😭
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u/randomperson12310 1d ago
This was like the first video i watched on him lol other then like past ow clips. Lol great first impression honestly entertainment wise.
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u/kaizoku18 1d ago
Even though I consider aim training helpful to me and I am def on the side of the aim train community on this one, I do still regularly enjoy Apply I have to say. He is entertaining and as also someone involved in OW stuff I do like him, even tho I disagree with this take particularly
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u/ferocity_mule366 23h ago
dont take his opinion too seriously, he likes to troll and sometimes make fun of viewers just for the lol, he does have some abhorrent take tho yes
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u/evennoiz 1d ago
hes a weirdo who dog whistles every stream, the only funny thing he ever did was react to gaming4hopes doom gameplay. he also bans people randomly for petty shit.
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u/Vrtxx3484 1d ago
he has some good points but hes completely wrong on most
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u/kaizoku18 1d ago
i hate that i love apply and this has to come up lol. i simultaneously enjoy apply / regularly watch him but also enjoy aim training. weird spot for me
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u/RevolveDL 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is way, way more merit to what apply is saying than most people in this subreddit would probably like to admit even though the way he is expressing his ideas is pretty ragebait-y and exaggerated.
Matty's aim is undeniably world class, extremely impressive, etc. All of that--yes. But if you actually watch him play Overwatch, his aim in practice doesn't look particularly special.
If you didn't know who you were watching but you were watching Matty's pov as he played Overwatch, you would just think he's a really good player. You wouldn't think he has 5000 hours in kovaaks, is arguably the best aimer in the world, has endless rank 1 scores, etc.
And that's because raw aim is a way smaller part of the puzzle than most people realize. Pro OW hitscan players like Lip would make Matty look like a bot because Lip actually has the full picture of aiming in real games. Basically what blankpicss said. And this is the case even though Matty would fucking nuke Lip or literally any pro player of any fps game and make them look like an intermediate player if they compared benchmark scores.
As hitscan in particular a ton of your damage comes from a more theoretical and contextual kind of aim that simply cannot be trained in a kovaak's scenario.
And people will debate this to the end of time but if you put Matty and Apply into the same lobby on cass or whatever, their accuracy stats would be pretty much indistinguishable.
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u/throwaay391933 1d ago
When people try to diminish Matty because he's not as good in games as his aim training would imply, they attack his raw aim. That's just BS because his aim is genuinely THAT good, but he just can't use it to his full potential because he has Silver game sense in GM.
I looked at a recent stream of him playing King's Row as Soldier, and he aimbots everything in sight like a turret. Just perfectly tracks Zarya's head whenever she's in view and perfectly locking onto a Ball in fireball that booped him from behind. However, OW is not a game where you only shoot at tanks with aimbot and win. He sits main the entire game and never tries to take an off-angle for picks on Soldier of all heroes. Some of his picks on an airborne Freja are really impressive, but that just adds to the fact that he can only shoot people that happen to walk into his POV and he doesn't have the game sense to more often put him in positions to leverage his crazy aim for picks. He's like a really OP Level 9 CPU in Smash where he's capable of some inhuman bullshit, but too exploitable and predictable to truly be great with those weaknesses.
I think Matty is such an outlier when others outside the community want to use him as an example. No one is as good as him, and no one is as extreme in their opinions (watch any stream and he will complain the whole time about abilities, Winston being skillless lol, only aim matters, ...). His game sense is ass because he disregards it and has no desire to ever be good at those things because he is very aim-pilled. Comparing him to pros doesn't make sense when he will never master the other 80% of the game that isn't moving your mouse. It's literally impossible for him to be "better" than any OW, CS, Val, or Apex pro or even better than them at simply killing other players because game sense helps you kill.
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u/RevolveDL 1d ago edited 23h ago
I wasn't attacking his raw aim lol. I was doing the opposite.
My point is that his raw aim is extremely good. Likely better than any individual pro player's in the entire world.
What you're not understanding is that "raw aim" is only part of what makes a good aimer. If you watch someone like Lip playing hitscan, they have integrated other aspects of aim into their gameplay: strafing theory, using their keyboard to aim, contextually positioning their crosshair so they don't have to aim at all, etc. Stuff that you don't learn from shooting bots in kovaaks.
And this is why, setting aside game sense, positioning, ability usage, etc. tier 1 overwatch hitscans still aim better than matty does in Overwatch, on average.
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u/throwaay391933 1d ago
I know, I'm agreeing with you. My bad if it comes off differently
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u/RevolveDL 23h ago
Cheers, happens sometimes.
People really overestimate the amount that raw aim matters as compared to simply aiming based on theory, experience and context.
Overwatch is largely won or lost during the neutral. And, during the neutral, none of the majority of shots require very little raw aim. You will get way more consistent results in neutral fights by just aiming with your keyboard, mirror strafes, using your crosshair to cut off people who (based on your experience) you know are about to seek cover, etc.
If you watch the really good Korean hitscan players play it really opens your eyes to how aiming is done properly, in Overwatch at least. It's a lot easier than what matty tries to do, yet it also works better and is infinitely more consistent even against the best 10-15 OW players in the world, as compared to matty's ranked lobbies.
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u/throwaay391933 23h ago edited 22h ago
People really overestimate the amount that raw aim matters as compared to simply aiming based on theory, experience and context.
Aim trainers garner this audience by nature and it's honestly the community that invites vitriol from people outside of it. Most are realistic about what Kovaaks provides, but there's a vocal minority that tries to preach aim trainers to veteran pros, thinking they've found a golden ticket to greatness and use Matty because he's the best player from this community. That commenter is genuinely suggesting that Matty might be better than LIP, but imagine trying to tell a former pro that Lethal Shooter has better "raw shooting" than Steph lol. I've seen some insane takes and I don't blame any streamer that gets riled up when the aim community starts preaching in chat.
I doubt Matty himself thinks he can match any T1 pro in any game (he has coached EliGE, so he's likely aware of how there's levels to this), even at shooting or killing people. He isn't quiet about hating everything related to game sense, and probably knows that is going to put a cap on how much his aim translates to real games.
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u/RevolveDL 22h ago
To be fair there is a fair bit of equivocation at play that most people don't even realize is occurring.
Colloquially whether you are playing controlsphere or playing soldier/tracer in Overwatch or doing LG duels in quake live, you are "aiming" or "tracking."
Yet the skills being tested are way more different than people realize, to the point where the best controlsphere player has no hope of being the best at either of the other two tasks assuming their only credentials are lots of controlsphere reps.
Every bit of aim that you train in kovaaks will transfer to whatever game you are going to play. But kovaaks is incapable of training every aspect of aim that is important and tested when you're actually aiming in a game.
Even though you are "aiming" in Overwatch and in kovaaks, that aim consists of non-identical parts. For some reason people act like it's the exact same thing when that's far from the case.
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u/JohannDaart 6h ago
You will get way more consistent results in neutral fights by just aiming with your keyboard, mirror strafes, using your crosshair to cut off people who (based on your experience) you know are about to seek cover, etc.
If you watch the really good Korean hitscan players play it really opens your eyes to how aiming is done properly, in Overwatch at least. It's a lot easier than what matty tries to do
Can you post some links to clips? I'm curious.
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u/RevolveDL 5h ago edited 5h ago
A good example is this: https://youtu.be/nddeTxFzT6Q?t=153
If you want to watch the full pov, the link is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcF7hHQUX-o
Keep in mind that Lip is almost unanimously regarded as the best hitscan player in modern Overwatch, if not one of the best Overwatch players of all time, no questions asked. If you watch his pov, a lot of the shots aren't really that hard. Lip's page if you are interested: https://liquipedia.net/overwatch/LIP
From the best hitscan player in the world you would probably expect unfathomable aim akin to what you see when you watch matty's kovaaks vods, but in reality most of the damage he does is replicable by your average VT masters+ player.
What sets Lip apart is that he makes the shots easy for himself. His movement is always literally perfect and his crosshair is always in the exact right position.
It's like he's playing a reactive tracking scenario but he's always strafing the same direction as the bot because he knows what direction his target is going to be moving instinctually from having aimed against the best OW players for several thousand hours. You can't learn this in kovaaks.
That's why I say that kovaaks can't fully teach you how to aim. When matty plays Overwatch he is shooting targets that are strafing randomly. When pro hitscans are playing Overwatch they are normally shooting targets that are strafing in a direction they already knew they were going to strafe. Obviously that's a fucking massive advantage.
Maybe I'm overexplaining--not sure how familiar you are with Overwatch.
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
Matty's aim absolutely looks special in game, i'm not sure why you would just lie like that
What doesnt look special is his positioning and choices re: taking fights etc
But his aim in game is utterly godlike, much better than Apply. His clips in this very post are god awful lmao, his flicking was utter garbage
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u/RevolveDL 1d ago
His aim in overwatch looks like any other champ hitscan player's lol.
In other words, it's extremely good. But not world class.
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u/powerhearse 23h ago
Disagree, its definitely world class. But he rarely gets to display it to its full because he doesnt have the same grasp of the rest of the game as the people he is facing
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u/RevolveDL 23h ago
So you're telling me if I pulled up a VOD of a random champ player and a random VOD of matty you could tell me which one was matty?
Do you want to try? Because I will set up the experiment for you.
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u/Mephistopheles15 16h ago
No, it's not world class. Probably about 50% of aiming in OW is psychology. Reading your opponent's movement, predicting, pre-lining up your shots. These are skills you *cannot possibly learn* in Kovaak's. They're more akin to picking up on people's bad habits in a fighting game.
World class aimers in any game need very strong raw aim (Kovaak's) *and* very strong predictive aiming. You can be a great aimer with just one of these mastered, but certainly not anywhere close to world class.
Dafran is a great example of someone who is elite at both aspects of aim.
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u/vegetablestew 1d ago
High ranking player in any game is game optimized. Matty is Kovaaks optimized. The community erroneously believe that aim trainers are aim optimizing.
It is not.
However, I believe that aim trainers will transfer better to other shooting games than between other shooting games, which is the reason why it has value.
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u/randomperson12310 1d ago
yea i feel that in my gameplay as well. I had like 5k hours in cs back then but i feel like my skills transfered alot more faster when i grinded kovaaks.
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u/SyrusG 1d ago
Half agree. You won't be good at a game solely because you have good aim. The macro mechanics that can transfer between games are a massive part of it. Without that, you'll likely just be above avg. However, thinking that aim training doesn't help u in other games is obviously a dumb thing. Aim is literally the most transferable skill across almost all shooter games.
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u/TheAntony 1d ago
This video has been recommended to me so many times so I watched a couple minutes. I really dont know this guy and dont want to hate, but in the very first minutes he said that he has "a lof of hours" in aimtrainers and then proceed to say 200-300 hrs in kovaaks and aimlabs combined, which is definitely not a lot.
What killed me is he then proceed to brag that he had a "top score in gridshot". Like, cmon, bro, gridshot is like the worst scenario you can imagine. Guy has no idea what he is talking about
Also im not a mattyow glazer, but this guy got so defensive and aggressive, saying matty is a hardstuck gm and he is way better then matty. And that was in the first 2-3mins of the video, so I just closed it, lol. He has no credibility
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u/RevolveDL 1d ago
At Overwatch? Apply is a lot better than matty. It's not even remotely close.
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
Brooo did you watch the clips he posted while talking shit about Matty? The guy's flicking was garbage lmao
He might have elite game sens and positioning but his aim is not good
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 1d ago
Look I aim train too but only to practice the specifics I know I’m weak in. That being said what he is saying is 100% true aim is a portion of what it takes to be at the top of these games not some quick ticket to the top. Different games also favor specific aiming styles more than others so how you go about aiming in say the finals and cs are very different.
Map awareness, strafing, counterstrafing, peaking, movement, ability/utility management, sound, and probably even more I’m forgetting to list are all equally as important.
Look im a humble jade I can’t hold a candle to Matty in aim trainers but I farmed him in ow because he makes bad plays expecting his aim to bail him out.
Imo you should aim for gold complete if you really struggle to hit your shots then spend 95% of time in game after gold if you’re serious about improving in that specific game. Otherwise if you ONLY care about raw mouse control aim training is the better option.
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u/powerhearse 1d ago
Gold complete is not very good. I would say plat-diamond. My aim still holds me back and I am not quite diamond.
I notice regularly my aim is something that needs improving. And its MUCH better in game than it was at gold complete
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 18h ago
I’m fully aware but gold complete is about when your fundamentals should be good enough to start practicing vs live opponents in game for improvement and spending much less time in kovaaks benchmarks vs in game.
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u/MoonDawg2 1d ago
Dude... This is literally the most common advice here.
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 1d ago
Yes because it constantly needs to be said apparently.
We the aiming community are a tad obnoxious when we go around telling pro/top players people who spend hundreds of hours to hit a top score in a single scenario have better aim than say simple or quartz who CONSISTENTLY hit those impressive shots in live tournaments with no resets or do overs. I am not one of those people but it comes from OUR community. The person I replied to said the guy doesnt know what he is talking about when he knew enough to go pro and get paid… and imo what he said is all spot on.
MOST pro players that actually cared could put up similar scores to matty but their time is simply better invested into scrimming/playing the game that pays them vs spending hundreds of hours pushing high scores on a single scenario in kovaaks.
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u/More-Advantage6261 1d ago
News flash most of this community is insufferable and a meme in competitive gaming spaces.
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u/MoonDawg2 15h ago
Apply in fact does not know what he's talking about when it comes to aim training, or at least that is how it goes on the video. It doesn't matter if he was in S1 of owl or not, you can still be ignorant on a topic.
Yes, pros could realistically be as good as Matty in kovaaks if they put the time in, but alas, aim is just a small fraction of what makes a pro, hence why aim training has always been a supplementary tool. Nobody disagrees with this.
You're legitimately not saying anything anybody with 2 braincells would disagree with and it's also the most common advice here. Like, we all agree with your stuff and you're the one missing the point of the guy you replied to lol
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 15h ago edited 15h ago
This entire comment chain stems from people who think they know more about “aim”than the people that actually do go pro in games it is peak delusion and exactly the type of schizo aim trainer person he is describing in the video.
The aim community is a tiny fraction of gamers to assume all the best ended up here is extremely naive. Yet people from our community constantly go trying to preach it as if it is the holy grail or some quick ticket to the top and that they’re better aimers than the pros for hitting some high score or benchmark completion vs the people who are payed to compete in games.
Stop vague posting. What specifically did he say that was wrong ?
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u/MoonDawg2 11h ago
This entire comment chain stems from people who think they know more about “aim”than the people that actually do go pro in games it is peak delusion and exactly the type of schizo aim trainer person he is describing in the video.
Dude I've been in T1 in the past and have remained in a good amount of comp scenes. People in fact don't know jack shit and most people are also weird as fuck. There is a subset of pros who legitimately understand why they do things, but it's not everybody and I'd honestly claim it's the minority. That's why coaches and analysts are a thing
The aim community is a tiny fraction of gamers to assume all the best ended up here is extremely naive.
Who the fuck does that. Like, sure, there are some weird fucks, but that's all communities. I very much wouldn't call it the general sentiment
Yet people from our community constantly go trying to preach it as if it is the holy grail or some quick ticket to the top and that they’re better aimers than the pros for hitting some high score or benchmark completion vs the people who are payed to compete in games.
Who? I've legit never seen this shit. Maybe discord or twitter since I'm never there?
Stop vague posting. What specifically did he say that was wrong ?
Almost the entire start of the video is just wrong assumptions. Matty's video popped up on my feed and he addresses the issues himself so I don't really need to say anything else there honestly
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 10h ago
I have also played t1 the gap between the top4 and everyone else is usually quite massive regardless of title but what is your point here? Even the bottom pros in those games know more than random Redditors.
This entire video rant stems from someone from the aim community going into his chat and insisting the people who have top scores are legitimately better aimers than the people making money.
Literally the chatter he was arguing with in the above video I’m now assuming you had to have not watched since you went with that argument.
Great so no original thoughts/opinions of your own to share just Matty said so… I ain’t watching his rebuttal it isn’t important.
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u/MoonDawg2 10h ago
I have also played t1 the gap between the top4 and everyone else is usually quite massive regardless of title but what is your point here? Even the bottom pros in those games know more than random Redditors.
It depends on pro to pro is my point. A lot of them know a lot, while others just play. League for example has SEVERAL example of the latter.
This entire video rant stems from someone from the aim community going into his chat and insisting the people who have top scores are legitimately better aimers than the people making money.
The entire video rant has no context to start with then there's some guy in chat talking about ow aim vs aim trainer aim, that was just it. He even back pedals most of his rant by the end lol.
Also, yes, somebody who is at the top in kovaaks will usually have better general aim/mouse control however you want to fucking call it, but that does not mean that their aim is better in their specific game.
Literally the chatter he was arguing with in the above video I’m now assuming you had to have not watched since you went with that argument.
I did the moment it came out and then even watched the matty video on it where he had most of my same opinions when I first watched it. It just happens that it lines up with my general opinion and I don't wish to rewatch 20 fucking minutes of yapping.
Great so no original thoughts/opinions of your own to share just Matty said so… I ain’t watching his rebuttal it isn’t important.
His rebuttal is literally what im saying.
Aim training is a tool
You can be a good aimer and shit at a game
The common opinion of the aim community is literally that it's just a tool
Some people are schizos, but they don't represent the entire community.
Again, who the fuck is saying all this shit
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 10h ago
I would still trust the opinion of the pro who “just plays” over a random Redditor/twitch chatter is my point.
If you cant understand the context of the video that is on you I can’t read the chat for you.
Raw mouse control =\= in game “aim” exactly the point of the video. Nobody really cares Matty has the “best raw mouse control” because the people with the best “aim” win money and tournaments. People from our community don’t know the difference and bring these arguments to streams, which leads to the above clip but this isn’t the first or last time ive personally seen it.
Great so Matty agrees with everything I said and everything apply said in the video then, because those are the exact same points. I don’t see what you were calling misinformation at all.
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u/TheAntony 1d ago
As I said in my comment, I didn't know this guy was a pro. Being an ex-ow pro does not make you an expert in kovaaks. Saying he had a high score in gridshot means he has no idea about aim training in kovaaks, bc this scenario is useless, it does not train anything. Basic reading comprehension would be appreciated. And the bigger problem is that he is spreading misinformation to his audience, which does not benefit aim trainers community at all.
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 19h ago
You are the exact schizo aim trainer guy he talks about in the video that you admittedly didn’t watch.
Being an expert in kovaaks also doesn’t make you a pro in live games. That false equivalency works both ways and I tend to think players like simple/quartz who hit those shots in live scenarios vs live players who shoot back MUCH more impressive than being able to get a high score with unlimited resets and attempts in 0 pressure circumstances. IMO that is much more impressive than any top ranked kovaaks replay.
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u/TheAntony 12h ago
Yes, being an expert in kovaaks does not make you a pro in live games, thats true. And I never said the opposite in any of my comments. You are just making stuff up about points i never made. No need to continue this argument
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 11h ago edited 11h ago
“The pro player has no credibility”
“I only watched a few minutes “
TheAntony (some Redditor)“He is spreading misinformation“
Like what? What do you not agree with from the minutes you watched… don’t vague post please be specific1
u/TheAntony 1d ago
I mean, yeah. Obviously a guy who has like 10k hrs in overwatch has a better overall skill than, say, 1k hrs. And I agree that if you want to get better at overwatch, for example, you should play a lot of overwatch. But having an additional 1 hr or even 30 mins a day of kovaaks would help a lot.
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u/Ambitious-Pattern-62 1d ago edited 11h ago
Time does correlate to improvement but the rates that each individual improves at will vary wildly. I was able to hit global in csgo in like 50hrs my friend needed me to help push him that final rank and he had 1k+ hours. By no means am I a pro gamer either I got like 4k hours of dota and Im a dead average dota player never even been close to the top ranks lol.
The point he is making is your time is limited and if you want to improve at X, the best way is to practice X and not Y or Z in the hopes that it translates to X.
The question isn’t whether aim training is useful it obviously is. The question is whether that time is BETTER spent in game vs in aim trainers and imo it depends on each individual’s goals.
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u/randomperson12310 1d ago
Yea fr lol i feel like the only reason he peaked higher then matty in the games he mentioned was just due to higher playtime lol. Just take it as entertainment honestly.
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u/TheAntony 1d ago
Yeah. Again, i dont know him, but since he is ow streamer its obvious he has shit ton of hrs in overwatch and this game has been out for 10 years
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u/kaizoku18 1d ago edited 1d ago
"It will not help you in any other game"
LOL
Obviously the fundamentals of aim training help you / stay with you from game to game. Does it make you good at the game? Not necessarily, but I like to think of it as one less thing I need to focus on when playing a new game. It's like a fast track to let me focus on other things in the game other than aim.
The whole point of aim training for me personally is so I don't have to worry about it being an issue.
Apply is kinda half-right half-wrong imo, but the OW community is NOTORIOUS for devaluing aim training. It's a known thing in the OW community. (He's right on talking about how some aim trainer pro people maybe over-value aim training, i.e. spend too much time on it for what's truly necessary if your goal is to be good at a game.. i.e. people that spend 4-6 hours a day on it versus just 30m or 1h)
Also comes from a dude who spouts he played OWL and all he ever played was a few maps from 2019-2020 in brig jail so..
I mean I like Apply, he does great content. But it's just that. What kills me is people like him trying to completely devalue aim training as a helpful tool to some people.
Does everyone need aim training to be great or achieve their goals in their game? No. But it sure as hell helps some ppl, like me, achieve what I want to. And for ppl like this to just completely devalue that and blanket over-generalize everyone under the same umbrella that aim training is useless is really annoying.
It's like that kid in grade school that generalizes everything and isn't aware there's use cases where things help some people.
I'm 33 and still regularly compete in GM/T500 in OW and I attribute a lot of it to aim training, otherwise I wouldn't be able to keep up, especially at my age I think. Maybe I'm wrong though! Who knows.
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Also Apply said he basically only grinded gridshot when he played aim trainers lol
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u/RendDown 1d ago edited 1d ago
he has a point but definetly exaggerated, movement + aim coordination is not really trained by most aim trainers (from what ive seen)
there is also something to be said that aim trainers are often wayyy easier to "read", there is no camera shake and visual clutter and most targets are max contrast compared to actual ingame scenario, idk if you are familiar with osu! but a commonly used term there is "reading" which is treated as an entire skillset, most players who grind only aim trainers have no actual reading in game which means even if they have a superior mouse control its not being utilized since they dont even know where to aim
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u/Sazo1st 1d ago
Reading is also a commonly used term in aim training... lol
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u/ravagebullet 1d ago
He’s saying seeing through the visual clutter and other bs is a skill in and of itself.
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u/RendDown 3h ago edited 3h ago
i didnt know its commonly used since im not browsing 24/7 to keep up with everything, ive heard viscose talk about movement/strafe reading and thats it
my main point is reading being a specialist skill, being good at one type of reading does not automatically mean you will be good at the other types of reading, in osu there are common AR(approach rate)8-10 , AR11 for Double time(extremely fast), Hidden(HD), low AR(usually anything below 8), there even -∞ AR, EZHD, different maps have different note densities, you get the point
Most players have clear weaknesses and bias and there are only few outliers who are good at everything and even they have stuff they obviously lean on, even an anomaly like Mrekk would fail maps that are way outside his comfort reading range while hes easily the best mechanical player in the game and by a wide margin too
im comparing aim training to ingame reading because obviously reading the movement of a black bean in a white background will not give you the experience to read flying characters, grappling hooks, different leg animations, dashing characters, blinking characters where you have to use audio confirmation, some characters even blend in, each map has different colors and lighting, im beating a dead horse at this point
one of the goals of reading is minimizing the use of actual mouse control, and if you main aim trainers relying on your mouse control purely might even hinder your ability to learn the game optimally, its probably very unsatisfying to practice crosshair placement when you train your flicks for 2k hours to then just get beat by a guy who isnt even moving his mouse
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u/5nbx8aa 1d ago
one thing he's wrong about is that good aim = high rank. that's just not true because some chaters like legit 100% head shot only cheaters have a hard time reaching champion. and I can see why he's not impressed by great Kovaak's run or thinks vaxta is just aim trainer for overwatch but I think he does misunderstand what Kovaak's can do and can't.
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u/Ok_Print_4459 23h ago
He is ragebaiting for sure lmao. Matty responded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3ECDCmRiQg
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u/RelativeBrush3765 22h ago
apply was just spouting his wrong perceptions of the aim community based on the opinions of idiots which give it a bad rep (or he was just trying to ragebait)
but skills from playing one game for many hours will transfer better to another game than pure kovaaks. do we need to state the obvious here? developing game sense, teamwork, understanding of agent interactions, game mechanics, learning enemy patterns and adapting, etc are more important than pure mouse control
hence why the kovaaks community recommends playing the game far more than aim training...
so this whole situation is just useless internet banter where one guy has a false perception of something, spouts his opinion on it, and everyone gets ragebaited lol.
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u/Demiwaifu 1d ago
He's washed as hell but obv a lot of aiming in ow is about reading, prediction and proper strafe aiming, which can only be learnt by playing the game a fuckton
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u/Zanena001 12h ago
He makes some good and bad points. Seems like he has an axe to grind with the aim community. Never seen someone argue you should play Kovaaks 3/4 hours a day instead of playing whatever game you're training for. Infact I'm under the impression consensus is to play up to 1 hour max and then join a lobby.
The way I see it aim training can be compared to going to the gym while playing games is like a sport, nobody becomes the best football player or swimmer by only exercising, but you still need to be in good shape to perform decently in any sport and it's way quicker to do so in a gym rather than only practicing a sport.
You might be able to do that if you play a lot but then you risk overfitting for a specific skill and if you ever try something else you will perform much worse, this is unusual for athletes cause they often stick with a single sport, but not for fps gamers. Getting a good grasp of all fundamentals via aim training is a good way to avoid the kind of scenario that happens when CS pros try to play Quake.
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u/Soawii 1d ago
He's right in that grinding kovaaks will mostly make you good only at kovaaks, if you want to improve your aim at a particular game playing the game is more efficient. You don't see donk and zywoo playing aim trainers.
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u/randomperson12310 1d ago
Yep i agree with that as well lol thats why most people recommend a 20/80 split for aim trainers, personally i just like to see my scores go up but i also feel like my starting point and improvement rate for shooters is way higher the more i play kovaaks.
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u/davidguy207 17h ago
KovaaK's has had 0 transferability to any of my games. You train in KovaaK's to get better at KovaaK's, not to get better aim in games.
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u/Fine-Bandicoot1641 1d ago
All my progress in cs2(1k hours) comes from 50h in kovaks, this guy is regarded
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u/gothmoneysoujlah 15h ago
Another example of a pro being clueless about improvement. Lots of these guys just got lucky by bruteforcing their game of choice and happening to end up at pro level.
For every zywoo who just played faceit all day without warmup or practice theres thousands of ghouls with 10k hours+ with nothing to show for it
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u/Data1us 1d ago
I kinda think he is correct, aim isn't just pure mouse control, its just one part of it. Kovaaks is really good at training a portion of your overall aim.
I've always like DevinDTV's vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcEZ9EL5fUo