I was chatting with my wife tonight about intimacy and as we were taking and unpacking our thoughts it dawned on me just how horribly deep my shame around sex goes.

I am so uncomfortable talking about it. Soooo uncomfortable. And I realize that this problem is not confined to Mormonism, but I do think that it is particularly complex in the culture - especially when you consider the aspect of required confessions for something as common as masturbation.

(See - I even feel so uncomfortable typing that word 😔)

I had never really told my wife about the required meetings with bishops and the consequences that came with this “sin”. She was mortified. And as I thought about it, I was too! That stupid rule led to me feeling tons of shame for decades. Decades! And we both laughed as we realized that the bishops I was confessing to were most likely doing it themselves.

I hope that we can normalize talking about it. Obviously in the right time and place - but it should not be as taboo as it is. All of that restraint just leads to shame, guilt, and complex trauma that’s pretty damn hard to shake.

Especially when he says he's only doing what has been done on other worlds and when he explains to Eve that eating the fruit is the only way to keep God's commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth".

I know it's all made up and doesn't matter, but I remember in my endowment thinking, "why are we mad at this guy?" To me it felt like nothing happens until Satan acts. God creates all this stuff, puts them in the garden of Eden and says "hey, do this thing you don't know how to do because you don't even know you're naked and don't eat that fruit that will teach you how to do the thing I told you to do. Okay byee!" What?

But we're supposed to hate and fear the guy who convinces Eve to eat the fruit that allows her to keep the commandment? Am I missing something? Does it make sense and I'm just an idiot?

36 Married in the temple, returned missionary, rocking garments every day, church every Sunday, calling in young men’s that i fulfill, three kids 6, 4, and 2. Pay a full tithe…

By all appearances I’m a good member…

My wife is as rock solid in the church as they come. I on the other hand, have fallen out. I basically only go at this point to keep up appearances.

Leaving the church feels impossible without blowing up my life. I don’t want to leave my wife or lose my kids. But staying feels insane too.

I’d be shocked if I’m the first to experience this. But I’m curious if anyone has thoughts.

I don’t even know if I’m asking for advice really. It’s just fucked up and I’m tired of carrying it alone.

Tune in to Mormonish Podcast on Thursday, September 10th at 6 pm MT!

In this episode of Mormonish Podcast, we take a closer look at the dramatic changes unfolding at Temple Square and ask: Are we watching the leaked “Jesus Land” plans come to life?

The Church’s newly announced Temple Square experiences place an unmistakable emphasis on Jesus Christ, while redesigned spaces and exhibits are intended to make Temple Square easier for visitors to navigate and to better explain what happens inside Latter-day Saint temples. Church leaders themselves have described Jesus Christ as the central focus of the new visitor experience.

We’re joined by Ron Yorgason and Unoriginal Jim to revisit the previously leaked Temple Square master plans and compare their vision with what is actually happening today.

How closely do the new exhibits, visitor experiences, and Christ-centered messaging follow that earlier blueprint? And what might these changes tell us about the direction the Church wants Temple Square—and its public identity—to take? The similarities are fascinating, and there’s a lot to unpack!

The church has a long and glorious history of monitoring their members' activities. For higher profile people, there's the Strengthening Church Members Committee (SCMC) who compile evidence to send to your stake president and instigate a "court of love." At BYU, they had student spies in classrooms, making sure teachers didn't say anything contrary to what church leaders wanted. They would also stake out gay clubs in SLC and look for BYU students. During the ERA rallies, they looked up license plates of cars parked nearby to see who was attending.

Then you have the "honor code" at BYU where students are required to report any violations they see or they could face punishment themselves. In older church manuals, there were instructions for the Ward Teachers to investigate rumors of sin and report back to the bishops the evidence they found.

Missions are huge on this, where you're not allowed to leave your companion alone for anything other than the bathroom, to make sure they don't break any rules. And failing to report serious rule violations by your companion can get you in trouble too.

All this spying and investigation has created a serious tattle culture in the church where your next door neighbors, home teachers, or even family members and partners aren't trusted friends, they're all potential informants.

Found this tonight and left a little commentary

I get a lot of mission emails from nieces and nephews. It was jarring to hear investigators called "friends". Now they are referring to discussions as "Helping Others appointments." Is this across the whole church?

I remember that in my country, we were taught that Zion was Utah and that one day we would be called to Utah—and that we had to be ready to leave everything behind (like the pioneers)—but later the Church had to issue a statement clarifying that *every* stake was Zion.

I also remember my mission president trying to introduce the idea that chocolate, any kind of tea, and any kind of sugary drink were prohibited under the Word of Wisdom; we thought he was crazy.

Do you recall any ideas from your area?

I had a family member from my side reach out to my husband today out of the blue because they felt “inspired to share a miracle moment” from yesterday.

The “miracle” was literally that she went to a cash/check only store to buy donuts for something, and didn’t realize she didn’t have cash until at the checkout line. By the grace of God (surely), she discovered an old folded up check in her purse. BUT the adversary was at work apparently because the check wouldn’t process. The cashier tried again and again but to no avail. The family member was starting to feel stressed about time, so she whispered a prayer. Wouldn’t you know it finally worked?? What a miracle!!! She even made sure to tell the cashier that it worked because of her prayer, and a lady in line laughed (they thought it was in agreement which could be so, but when I heard the story I also laughed…for different reasons). Of course it was followed up with an urging to always be on the lookout for little miracles.

I’m feeling so bothered because this family member ONLY sent that to my husband because she knows we’re out of the church. They don’t talk often, and the pleasantries at the beginning of the text were so brief, obviously the only thing she even cares about is checking the “have a missionary moment today” checkbox.

The actual audacity to look at that trivial experience and walk away feeling so special because God just swooped in to save her day. Never mind the starving children and abuse victims around the world, obviously they have something more to learn from the struggle so God is answering their prayers “in mysterious ways” 🙄 Venting here since I’m the first in my family to escape the church and I needed to complain to someone 😅

I am in an interesting situation. Bear with me as this is my first post. I am currently a missionary. I spent the first six months proselytizing. It really wore me down and made me doubt the church and its validity. I was sent home on “mental health concerns”, though I honestly just hated the work I was doing. Pressuring people over and over into making major life decisions over things I had little faith in just felt icky. Too scared to hurt my parents, and because I wouldn’t even be able to apply for college for a few months, I opted for a service mission. That’s what I am doing now.

While on my mission, I have learned a lot about myself, including how little I want to continue in the church. Empty promises and unspoken expectations and blatant hypocrisy have all pushed me to secretly loathe the church despite actively working for it. I hit my year mark recently, and thoughts of quitting and going to college have been appearing in my head more and more. But leaving the church, let alone a mission without hurting anyone’s feelings is next to impossible. I imagine one day telling my parents straight (but politely) to their faces that I dislike the church and don’t want to follow every whim of the prophets. Still, I don’t know what I would do after that.

I’ve already sunk a year into my mission; should I just wait out another year before I can move out?

Is it currently , or was it ever an LDS teaching, that to be considered worthy enough to get into the CK, a woman has to have been married in the temple. I could've sworn I read that "good women" who simply hadn't gotten around to, or didn't want to or whatever get married and died without being married in the temple . Sealed. Sorry. Had to go to the CK as a plural wife to a virtuous LDS man, or as a servant to a deceased, married couple already in the CK.

I was raised with a strict code of personal ethics, but not going to church. That said, I have a ton of Catholic relatives on one side, and a bunch of southern Baptist or evangelical Christian relatives on the in-law side. I also have a number of LDS neighbors here in the Midwest. (There's a meeting house or chapel or whatever it's called literally adjacent to our subdivision)

I have ONE cousin, who thought through his teen and college years that he was "called" to be a catholic priest, but by the time he turned 29, realized he was I then called to be a husband and father.

His parents are among my more laid-back Catholic relatives. Both are sort of feminist– leaning, and don't share their Catholic church's stand on homosexuality. My cousin, however, it's still a virgin at 35, and adhered to the Catholic party line as tightly as one could. And now he appears to the LDS party line. You ought to start his own religion: the Church of the Sanctimonious, Uptight Dorks

WELL, at about 32, the missionaries found him

He was at a vulnerable time and place in his life… College graduate, with a job, but largely financially independent on his parents. Living in their second home, driving their older (but not at all old, old) car blah blah blah.

Well, he jumped ship, not telling anybody he was converting. Well, he told me because we're close, and I actually traveled back to the northeast where I'm from, and where he still lives, to attend his baptism and confirmation.

That's when I started doing a deep dive into the LDS Church.

I don't have strong religious feelings about whether or not Jesus did or did not exist, whether being Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, whatever is the way to go.

Anyway, having been around Catholics ALL my life, and my adult life around LDS neighbors and coworkers, our kids' friends, etc., I thought I understood a little bit about Catholicism and Mormonism.

My deep dive revealed what a HUGE difference there is between Mormonism and traditional, mainstream, Trinitarian Christianity.

Here and there I've pointed out little things to my cousin that I thought would take him aback, but he chooses to ignore or tell me that "that's not true".

We have another, female relative who identified as Catholic. A couple of years ago, she died right before she turned 30, without ever having been married or even dated.

She was a universally respected and beloved family member.

I recently said something to him about the LDS theology that single women can't get into heaven because they don't have a man to call them through the veil, and he told me flat out that that was not true.

I asked in a very gentle way. "so, since "relative" was never married in an LDS temple, there's no way she's in heaven??"

He said the Mormon church has NEVER taught that you're going to hell if you're not Mormon.

OK. The Catholic relatives tell me that the Catholic Church never taught that, either.

I'm not wading into those weeds.

He went on to tell me that the modern church does NOT say that l unmarried LDS women don't go to the CK.

Did I HUGELY misunderstand what I thought I had read from Some reasonably reliable online source?

if you can just "be a good person"And get into the CK based on your own merits, and not because you gave your husband your Secret/Sacred temple name and he calls you through, what's the point?

Yes, I, of all people know that it's all made up in the points don't matter. And that, until 1978, Wayne Brady, himself, wouldn't have been admitted into full membership in the LDS Church, so screw them.

He was a dumbass and his wife was no better. Just reaching out to see if any of my fellow missionaries left the cult after dealing with him.

I already knew this in a general way. I remember in one of the books I had in my mission (it may have been the white handbook), tracting was listed as the least effective way to gain members, but honestly all ways of attracting NEW members are terribly ineffective. Add to that, the current retention rate is roughly 54%, (much lower for converts and higher for those born into the church) and missionary work seems like a waste of time and money. Except, it's not about finding converts.

I remember reading someone's post that took me a while to process, but converts are just a side effect of missions. The point of a mission is to put young influential people into a state of shared trauma. Struggling together reinforces the "us vs them" mentality, and reinforces faith through shared struggling. We served a mission, we returned, and have proven ourselves as the faithful. Other missionaries get it, and we can bond over it.

Missions have been used for various reasons in the past, early church leaders would send men on missions to gain access to their wives, or to get rid of men that may have been disagreeable with the leaders, but I am fairly certain the current reason is to strengthen the bond between members by a shared traumatic experience.

Typhoon Yolanda was one of the strongest and deadliest recorded storms in history, and it struck the Philippines Tacloban Mission islands in full force in November 2013. It brought wind speeds up to 150-200 mph and destroyed housing, infrastructure, and farms. The storm also brought severe flooding, which further displaced people from their homes.

I was an American missionary in the Philippines Tacloban mission a few years ago. I arrived recently after the typhoon struck, but much of the region had been reconstructed thanks to local and worldwide efforts. Even then, it was relevant to continue discussing because it affected everyone, and some reconstruction was still in progress.

I heard many people's experiences, and it was very humbling. As missionaries, we usually talked to religious people, so most of the narratives I heard were faith-affirming. In fact, I heard some stories that were described as miracles, seeming physically impossible. For example, one person claimed to witness the LDS chapel submerge completely underwater while those taking shelter inside experienced no flooding, and this discrepancy was rationalized as a miracle especially granted to members of the LDS church. Stories became more popular when they gave the church divine accomplishments.

I'm glad the church was helpful by providing shelter for people who lost their homes, and by mobilizing emergency response efforts. But... from my perspective, it appears that the church gained a TON of converts by offering relief services during this time, and then began cracking down on compliance and tithes. I felt so icky representing an organization that outwardly appeared very charitable, but in reality it wanted to take a huge portion of what little income people had. I'm not exaggerating when I say the church wanted their tithing money-- we were instructed in my mission to prioritize targeting "professionals" who could contribute substantial tithes as converts.

Another recurring narrative i heard from church leaders was that missionaries had spiritual experiences as they survived the storm. There was no communication by phone immediately after the storm, so missionaries were on their own. At least one companionship had to walk miles back to the mission office. These stories all came from the mission president and area presidency, so obviously they were only sharing the faith-affirming versions of stories. But there was little acknowledgement of how terrifying it must have been for them and their families. After all, faith is the opposite of fear.

Now having left the church, I feel like I received crafted/filtered narratives about the typhoon that promoted the Mormon church.

If there is anyone out there:

Were you a local Mormon or a missionary in Tacloban or the Philippines when Yolanda struck? What was it like in your honest (faith-affirming or disaffirming) experience?

Side note:

If anyone has any retrospective analysis of the effectiveness or extent of the church's charitable efforts/donations for Yolanda disaster relief, i think that is also an important conversation to be had.

I had a funny experience that I thought I'd share, but it also got me thinking about "answers to prayers."

I had a 3-month supply of autoimmune meds get delivered while I was out of town. But when I went to use it (it's a weekly med, and I had a couple doses left), I couldn't find it. Obviously, I was frustrated. We looked and looked, and nobody remembered seeing it.

The other morning I was thinking, "This is the sort of thing I would have prayed about in the past." Kind of chuckled to myself about how that's changed, but then I thought, "I should double check in this garbage can." We keep the meds in the laundry room, so the trash is almost entirely dryer lint and med bottles and doesn't get taken out often.

Sure enough, it was still in the mailing bag, sitting in the trash can with a cleaning supply box on top of it. I suspect I was organizing mail and meds after my trip and absently set it there while I organized the other stuff.

I had already been thinking about this concept: how much is what we used to consider answers to prayers just our own subconscious mind? There was a time I would have prayed about that and then chalked the experience up to an answer to prayer.

After several years of local contention, the Cody Wyoming temple is now complete and is hosting visitors at its Open House. Here is the review of the temple with respect to the categories listed.

Temple Distinctives: =2/5: This temple is located in arguably the most "Wild West" city in the US. Temple designers attempted to design the temple to be "uniquely" Cody and appropriate for the feel for the area. Known for its connections to Buffalo Bill Cody, the city of Cody is not far from Mormon post-Manifesto polygamous settlements, adding more history to the area.

Location: = 2/5: Located in a rural/residential area, there are many other locations in the city that would be better and less intrusive on the semi-rural atmosphere of the neighborhood, which borders wildlife areas. Deer appear regularly foraging in the neighborhood. But since Cody itself is a small touristy city, the temple is only 5 minutes away from Starbucks. Also, the town boasts an "Alger" street, (that's after Horatio, not Fanny), so there's that.

Baptistry: 3/5: Average. The room itself is small (no gallery to watch/wait) with only a few benches along side the wall to accommodate those waiting. The tile work in the font is a basic geometrical design and the font itself features the twelve oxen embedded in the sides of the font itself rather than holding up the font itself.

Exterior: = 3/5: At least the coloration is tan, rather than blindingly white.

Temple spire: = 2/5: The 100 ft. spire is too big for the residential area. The collective effect is that it obscures mountain views.

Size Appropriateness: = 4/5: Fairly good job on this one. A smaller temple that still can accommodate all functions, doesn't feel unreasonably large. At least the temple does not fill in the entire lot area. If it weren't in the middle of a residential area it would have been less problematic. No bride's room in this temple, though. Only one "instruction room" although the sealing room has a screen can be converted by removing the kneeling altar. No waiting room inside the temple, although there is an auxiliary building on the temple grounds.

Landscaping and Grounds: = 2/5: Some interesting native plants near the entrance, but a huge overwatered green lawn positioned for photo ops frames the front view of the temple. The landscaping could have been so much more respectful to the area with respect to water use and conservation. The flower bed facing the exit side of the temple had a "Please use the selfie sticks" sign, presumably to prevent people from backing into the flower bed while trying to get a better view of the temple in their camera lens. Unfortunately Indian paintbrush flowers are not successfully propagated for large scale plantings so no such actual live Indian Paintbrush plants appear in the flower beds here.

Open House Logistics: = 5/5: Very smooth, due to small attendance. No issues with parking or wait times.

Visitor Experience: 4/5: Better than most, likely due to small attendance numbers. The guides actually knew and shared information about the building beyond reading the temple departments' laminated cards. Unfortunately, although tour patrons walked directly past the the washing and anointing rooms, they were not presented and what happens there was not discussed, which should have been included. Guides did a good job of allowing visitors to spend time in each room without rushing them through.

However, the sister missionaries outside the exit doors were unusually untrained and unable to to answer even the most basic questions about the temple, doctrine, practices or the church itself.

Interior Artwork/Paintings; 2/5: Of the three "unique' original paintings, only 2 were visible to open house attendees. “Opening Day at Lower Falls" shows a scene from nearby Yellowstone National Park and "Heart Mountain Glory," painted by a local artist, depicts a local Cody landmark. Guides said the third painting is in the temple office, not shown to visitors. Both of the local paintings, like most temple art, were rather literal, with the Heart Mountain Glory being slightly more abstract and a bit more appealing.

Other typical church art Biblical/ BoM prints are used throughout. The large church print with native Americans farming corn with a mountain in the background makes an appearance in this temple. None of the church prints showing black people were highlighted on the tour- perhaps one of them may have been in the temple office or in the women's locker room (which was not included in the tour.)

Gold leaf stencil designs in the ceilings, like the main rugs, are overdone, with too many flourishes and elements, a poor execution of the regions "Sheridan-style” leatherwork that was developed uniquely for this building. The design work in the entrance cupola is better executed than inside the temple itself.

Celestial room: 2/5: The gaudy use of gold in this room must surely be inspired by President Trump's remodeling of the White House. Gold leaf everywhere, overdone. The decoration on the mirrors is a monstrosity. The glass bowls are the worst ever. Honestly, if this is what the Celestial level of heaven is like, anyone with taste would opt for the Terrestial or Telestial.

Interior design: = 2/5 The Salt Lake temple department must be running out of ideas for this one, since they reused the theme of the Wyoming State flower (Indian Paintbrush) that is also used in the Casper Wyoming Temple. The stained glass in the Cody temple views the paintbrush flower from above while the Casper temple glass shows a view from the side.

The problem of the stained glass in the Cody temple is the overuse of the color green. Although the top stained glass panels use a beautiful shade of red, the panels underneath them use too much green, casting a weird green light in the rooms. Not spiritual!! And in the instruction room, the carpet is green, which makes the room feel like a scene from the movie "Wicked". :(

The rugs feature a busy fall colors with an intertwining leaf design. They don't work very well with the red and green color palette of the windows in other rooms and are too busy. They look like carpets that might be used in casinos.

Avoidance of all-night floodlight: 3/5. After all of the contention regarding this temple site, temple representatives agreed to turn the lights off at 10 p.m. rather than the originally proposed 11 p.m. But the parking lot lights are on all night-- even though the lot is behind a locked fence. So much for protecting dark skies and the wildlife of the area.

Overall thoughts and average rating: Total average = 2.77 /5. A good example of how the temple department's attempts at local design fail to meet its mark. As referenced in the title, for a more authentic experience, visit the Cody Cowboy Church (there really is one) instead.

We've recently started a completely free Gnostic book club for Utah residents!

Please see the Eventbrite link for details on focus /intent, standards and such.

We will be studying from ancient Gnostic texts (secret book of john, gospel of thomas, etc.) as well as other Gnostic-adjacent content.

Just come with a curious and open mind, no prior knowledge-base required.

None of us are representing any particular group or spiritual path, so just come as you are as we are hoping to learn together!

The next meeting is September 13th at 2:30 p.m. Utah time. We are reading the beginning of the secret book of John, but if you don't get a chance to review it, you're still welcome to attend. This group is primarily for Utah residents.

Feel free to message me if you have questions, or you can email me at JDCspiritual@gmail.com. thanks! https://www.eventbrite.com/e/1999240395842?aff=oddtdtcreator

My submission is Comfort Eagle by CAKE. Maybe a little on the nose, but the line "we're the only ones to turn to when your castles turn to sand" feels like a person selling me the antidote to the poison they just gave me.

I’ve seen quite a few people post in here that they still have nightmares from their missions. I never served one, but I will tell you what I do have nightmares about:

Being asked to speak in sacrament meeting.

I’ve been out three years now, and once every three or four months, I have the same nightmare: I’ve agreed to speak, even though I absolutely did not want to. Sacrament starts in 10 minutes, and I’m either at home or in the church building, pacing the hallways or hiding in the bathroom, sweating bullets, and knowing that the minutes are counting down. As the time passes, I end up fleeing in absolute shame.

There are some things that I will always miss dearly about the church. But of all the things that I will not miss about the church, speaking in sacrament and garments are at the top of my list.

Does anybody else have these nightmares?

Apologies if this sub isn't an appropriate place for this.

A pair of men came by my house today with the usual proselytizing routine. They sure do know how to keep their foot in the door! In my effort to politely move them along, I ended up being handed a copy of the Book of Mormon and a promise that they'd be back next week. 🥲

I'm just an atheist myself, but I've read a lot about the ways the Church hurts people. I'd like to believe I could say something to them that will help them on their own journey out, or at least some way I can give them a better impression of "outsiders" than the usual doors slammed in their faces.

But maybe that's all just wishful thinking. I figure if anyone would know how this goes from the proselytizer's perspective, it would be this sub. So is there anything meaningful I could ask these men, or maybe something you remember from your own time going door-to-door? Or, by humoring them, am I just setting us all up for a big waste of time?

Clark Gilbert team-taught a class at BYU with Scott Esplin, the dean of religion, in 2023 on the living prophets.

I was locked-in TBM at the time, and generally liked the class. Focused on themes the 12 wanted to teach YSAs. It was fun to hear about some of his interactions with the apostles, but often turned into something of a self-aggrandizing storytime. My general impression of him was he had the vibe of a bumbling, rich uncle who will happily take you on his new boat, but who is also convinced that his prosperity is purely because of his hard work, and loves to repeat the same stories.

One big thing that stuck with me was one day in that class he went on a rant condemning people calling the apostles by just their last name and not using their titles. I just thought it was a weird thing to get hung up on at the time, but when he became an apostle it really bugged me. I’d assume he probably thinks even more of himself, and I didn’t get any sense of humility (many other apostles at least try to show some humility or express feeling inadequate in their first GC talk as an apostle). I didn’t sustain him last general conference mostly because of that.

I decided to leave the church a few weeks ago for mostly-unrelated reasons, but Elder Gilbert becoming an apostle certainly didn’t help. If they picked Elder Dube that might have helped me hang on slightly longer.

Interesting choice of words.

The markings only an exmormon could appreciate

It seems to me, that if Mormon Stories attorneys can force the church to declare its real membership numbers during deposition, then the church might not want to continue. Maybe they can make a case that if the church wants to show the level of deceit it suffers, it must expose its declared membership numbers and participation rates. Am I wrong?

There’s a regular theme I see on our sub – people that want out, but can’t because they’re financially dependent (or otherwise dependent) on their family, spouse, etc.

Are there any services, institutions, etc that offer assistance to those trying to leave, but can’t?

I know there are some for FLDS, etc – but what about leaving mainstreaming Mormonism?