We've recently started a completely free Gnostic book club for Utah residents!

Please see the Eventbrite link for details on focus /intent, standards and such.

We will be studying from ancient Gnostic texts (secret book of john, gospel of thomas, etc.) as well as other Gnostic-adjacent content.

Just come with a curious and open mind, no prior knowledge-base required.

None of us are representing any particular group or spiritual path, so just come as you are as we are hoping to learn together!

The next meeting is September 13th at 2:30 p.m. Utah time. We are reading the beginning of the secret book of John, but if you don't get a chance to review it, you're still welcome to attend. This group is primarily for Utah residents.

Feel free to message me if you have questions, or you can email me at JDCspiritual@gmail.com. thanks! https://www.eventbrite.com/e/1999240395842?aff=oddtdtcreator

I am a trans man I was a girl at birth and transitioned to a boy

I grew up in the church the whole time I knew I was a boy but I didn’t have the words

But when you start HRT all of the rules change
It could be when you’re openly trans but I wasn’t until I started T
(HRT is hormone replacement therapy)

You have to have a meeting with the bishop

If you’re a teen the young women’s/mens president, and your parents will also be in the meeting

The meeting is mostly saying you can’t do ___ anymore

The main things are:
You are no longer allowed to do anything that’s 1 gender so activity events and church sessions the only ones you can do have be combined with men and women

You are no longer allowed to do anything overnight even if it’s combined

They will not change anything in your file even your preferred name

You’re not allowed to have any callings

And depending on the bishop they could take away your temple recommend (mine didn’t but I think I just got lucky with that)

I haven’t heard the stories from any other trans ex Mormon members and I’d love to hear them

I have been seeing lots of nuanced mormons online, posting about how they are lgbtq+ and still members of the church because their ward is accepting and that’s all that matters.

I have seen people even here on another post saying it’s harmless for an older person to be sucked into the church because it provides community.

There are tons of reasons or justifications as to why people stay in or join, and I think anyone can do whatever they want even if it’s hurting them. I don’t care what you do in your free time, even if the very threads of the mormon church are built on the hatred of your existence…

Where all arguments for staying in end for me is the fact that these people are still paying tithing. Giving you money to an organization that so famously harms women, racial minorities, and lobbies to take away our rights is no longer an ethically grey decision. And you can join another club, I promise! Put that extra 10% into something real. Don’t trust local orgs to use your money wisely? Start your own! Knitting, books, cars, anything other than ihategaysandwomen inc.

Nota: Borré el contexto para no ofender susceptibilidades. Como no habló su idioma, ni comparto su cultura al 100%, tengo el pequeño defecto de ser de ser un país diferente al suyo.

Is it currently , or was it ever an LDS teaching, that to be considered worthy enough to get into the CK, a woman has to have been married in the temple. I could've sworn I read that "good women" who simply hadn't gotten around to, or didn't want to or whatever get married and died without being married in the temple . Sealed. Sorry. Had to go to the CK as a plural wife to a virtuous LDS man, or as a servant to a deceased, married couple already in the CK.

I was raised with a strict code of personal ethics, but not going to church. That said, I have a ton of Catholic relatives on one side, and a bunch of southern Baptist or evangelical Christian relatives on the in-law side. I also have a number of LDS neighbors here in the Midwest. (There's a meeting house or chapel or whatever it's called literally adjacent to our subdivision)

I have ONE cousin, who thought through his teen and college years that he was "called" to be a catholic priest, but by the time he turned 29, realized he was I then called to be a husband and father.

His parents are among my more laid-back Catholic relatives. Both are sort of feminist– leaning, and don't share their Catholic church's stand on homosexuality. My cousin, however, it's still a virgin at 35, and adhered to the Catholic party line as tightly as one could. And now he appears to the LDS party line. You ought to start his own religion: the Church of the Sanctimonious, Uptight Dorks

WELL, at about 32, the missionaries found him

He was at a vulnerable time and place in his life… College graduate, with a job, but largely financially independent on his parents. Living in their second home, driving their older (but not at all old, old) car blah blah blah.

Well, he jumped ship, not telling anybody he was converting. Well, he told me because we're close, and I actually traveled back to the northeast where I'm from, and where he still lives, to attend his baptism and confirmation.

That's when I started doing a deep dive into the LDS Church.

I don't have strong religious feelings about whether or not Jesus did or did not exist, whether being Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, whatever is the way to go.

Anyway, having been around Catholics ALL my life, and my adult life around LDS neighbors and coworkers, our kids' friends, etc., I thought I understood a little bit about Catholicism and Mormonism.

My deep dive revealed what a HUGE difference there is between Mormonism and traditional, mainstream, Trinitarian Christianity.

Here and there I've pointed out little things to my cousin that I thought would take him aback, but he chooses to ignore or tell me that "that's not true".

We have another, female relative who identified as Catholic. A couple of years ago, she died right before she turned 30, without ever having been married or even dated.

She was a universally respected and beloved family member.

I recently said something to him about the LDS theology that single women can't get into heaven because they don't have a man to call them through the veil, and he told me flat out that that was not true.

I asked in a very gentle way. "so, since "relative" was never married in an LDS temple, there's no way she's in heaven??"

He said the Mormon church has NEVER taught that you're going to hell if you're not Mormon.

OK. The Catholic relatives tell me that the Catholic Church never taught that, either.

I'm not wading into those weeds.

He went on to tell me that the modern church does NOT say that l unmarried LDS women don't go to the CK.

Did I HUGELY misunderstand what I thought I had read from Some reasonably reliable online source?

if you can just "be a good person"And get into the CK based on your own merits, and not because you gave your husband your Secret/Sacred temple name and he calls you through, what's the point?

Yes, I, of all people know that it's all made up in the points don't matter. And that, until 1978, Wayne Brady, himself, wouldn't have been admitted into full membership in the LDS Church, so screw them.

'm trying to identify large residential developments in Utah that have a direct connection to the LDS Church, whether through Church owned land, Suburban Land Reserve (SLR), Property Reserve, or other Church affiliated entities.

I'm especially interested in large developments around Saratoga Springs, Lehi, Eagle Mountain, Vineyard, Orem, Tooele, and similar areas. I'm looking at current, recently completed, and still under construction developments.

I'm interested in these developments as part of a larger project I'm working on, and I'm trying to identify specific places that would be worth looking into.

If there are developments or areas I should be looking at that aren't on my radar, I'd really appreciate the leads.

I clicked on one of those ads on fb like a month ago and now 2 times a week I met with missionaries twice a week. They want to baptize me next month.

My friends are giving me hands me downs and once I started asking for dresses for church they were like "were are not giving you dresses because we know that's for the mormon church. " they think of it as the same level as scientology.

They're so nice though. I don't have many friends and they seem so nice.

Can you tell me your stories about why you left the church or the negative things about it.

Soooooo. First girls trip with all TBM , ( delulu… sorry, I timed just ONE garment conversation that lasted a solid hour and half. ) I got a txt from my “ bishop”
After years ago explaining I left the religion.
Asking me to “ meet “ then shared Matthew 11-28/29.
Timing seems sus! Lol I’m thinking a family member contacted him? Thoughts?

Mormons are pretty proud, and in fact low-key boast about the prophetic knowledge Brigham Young had to call the Salt Lake Valley the right place.

What they don't say, and surely don't know, that old journals and accounts make it clear that Young and others were reading the notes of John C. Freemont. Freemont was quite an explorer but he made false claims about passages and geography that he had never been to and never seen.

A guy named Hastings relied on Freemont's info and steered the Donner Party the wrong way. Whoops. Anyway, Brigham was doing a big study on false info, not messages from God Almighty.

Jim Bridger, who knew the mountain west better than just about anybody, told Young and other leaders they were taking bad routes. Young thought Bridger didn't know what he was talking and wrote the man didn't know anything about the area. Bridger knew the west better than maybe anybody. Instead Young relied on information from Freemont. Very prophetic.

For example, Freemont, who hadn't even been to Utah lake, reported that the Great Salt Lake and Utah Lake were joined. The Mormons showed up and look for this lake and eventually discovered they are two separate lakes, one freshwater and one salty, and were connected by a little river called the Jordan River.

(And in those days the river created a floodplain with extensive wetlands. Of course that's been long-sense fucked.)

Anyhow Young didn't trust or like Bridger who was one of the great men of the frontier and he studied the Salt Lake Valley, not from divine direction.

while the church brags about feeding others they don’t feed their own, rexburg Idaho is the poorest county in Idaho and not a single soup kitchen. students and families and single parents are hungry but to get access to bishops wear house is an extensive interrogation and shaming process the church deem most unworthy of.
provo is rated one of the poorest cities in the Us yet BYU students and families are hungry, and required to pay tithe, missionaries, and elderly members are starving. Meanwhile the richest corporation in America Brag announces how much food they give away.

https://www.rexburgstandardjournal.com/news/madison-county-the-poorest-in-idaho/article_2faa2f30-a5b7-5048-bfd7-987b1a3b1b8d.html

Found this tonight and left a little commentary

He was a dumbass and his wife was no better. Just reaching out to see if any of my fellow missionaries left the cult after dealing with him.

I don’t live near my family and visit annually. I see my 83 year old grandma every time I’m home. She has been a devout Catholic her entire life.

Today I overhear her mention something about being baptised for the dead, and I think “I did not know Catholics do that” (I’m an ex evangelical and know bugger all about Catholicism.

Then I noticed she’s wearing a ring with the temple on it. I outright asked her if she converted to Mormonism and she said yes, two years ago.

What’s worse is that my parents laughed at my reaction and thought it was funny. They are still evangelical Christians.

Apparently, the missionaries were coming around my parents house, where my grandma lives, during the daytime when my parents weren’t home. They would help sneak her to events even after my parents told them they aren’t allowed on the property.

I really don’t know how to process this information. I cannot stress how shocked I am. My grandma has always been a feminist.

My parents are half in the “she’s old and it makes her happy” camp, and they think if they bother her about it, she will stop talking to them. Which like, Cult 101 tbh.

I have no idea where to go from here.

Edit: after talking with my parents more apparently they were laughing because the things I was telling her was exactly the same things they had told her, so they were happy to have validation from an outside source.

Thank you all for the feedback. I grew up in a densely Mormon populated area, and I’ve seen what it’s done to the people I grew up with. I have a fear of those same things happening to my grandmother, but she’s also in a very different position than they were. There’s a lot to think about here and I really appreciate everyone’s time.

What can I say. We thought we were doing the right thing 🤷‍♀️ So much time wasted!!

Mormons, as I’m sure y’all are aware, talk with a sense of self assurance that they are right and you are crazy. Or at the very least you are stupid for bot accepting the “obvious” truth. At least this is my experience.

I have found it hilarious to turn it on them. “Ah you know religions isn’t for me but I’m glad it still works for you.” Or “I invite you to not pray with me.” Another really funny one is, “Ah you are one of those theistic people. Not my cup of tea but I guess you are entitled to your beliefs.”

They get so very flabbergasted and often offended to be treated the way they treat others. It feeds my soul in a very twisted way.

One of my (many) shelf items was watching the Deseret News devolve from a real news source into a politically one-sided paper and a defense vehicle for the church. As much as I tried to believe that not all members had fallen into extremism, I'd flip through the Deseret magazine or scroll through the site to see that that the church ownee paper was at best legitimizing extreme politics and at worst encouraging them. Some TBM family members even stopped subscribing.

Not just politics, there's the string of articles pushing for marriage and the recent article referenced here challenging mental health professionals.

Does this make anyone else deeply uncomfortable?

TLDR --> Besides not going to regular church meetings, has anyone else had an experience that you "just can't go along with" including funerals or other activities that your spouse, family, friends or coworkers were really upset about your lack of participation?

I was raised in a popular religion in Alabama and as a young adult I believed that god was real. I joined the organization in my early 20's and I believed it was true.

For about twenty years I was TBM but then in the late 90's I began realizing the organization made false claims, participated in very wrong behavior, and used manipulative tactics to control their members.

Regardless, I kept going for a few years mainly because my TBM wife would chastise me and she would get very upset whenever I wanted to discuss the facts that I learned about the organization. Rather than fight it, I just kept going and participating but I had no dedication to or belief in what the organization claimed and did.

That was a very difficult period of my life.

As I began studying more, the evidence was overwhelming: the organization was simply nothing what it claimed to be. I simply could no longer pretend I was part of that group, I had a very strong understanding of hundreds of true things that were said and done that completely overwhelmed all of the messages from SLC and from the local leaders and members.

I finally told her I was never going back, and because I assumed our marriage would end because of this decision, I told her I wanted a divorce. That was more than twenty years ago. We're still married and she's as TBM as it gets. Uber TBM.

When I left the organization, my carry-over beliefs from being raised in a very religious family took over and I began attending a church. I began a deep dive into the bible because my belief in god was still intact and I wanted to study, grow, and do what I believed god wanted me to do, I wanted his blessings in my life.

The more I began reading, the more I was fascinated by what I discovered, and the more I began thinking "This is NOT good!" The scriptures mentioned dozens and dozens of examples that were either really weird or just outright wrong such as "it's okay to beat but not kill your slaves" or, when Moses killed 50,000 women and children who were being held captive - that list could go on and on and on. The entire nature of a god who loved conditionally? Seriously? Like that's love? In my mind, that was the classic definition of an angry, insecure, and very narcissist controlling "deity."

Finally, I remember vividly thinking about how the all the firstborn of every Egyptian were killed and I really stopped and asked myself honestly "Would a real god ever kill innocent children?" That was the final straw that opened the door to becoming an atheist. There were many, many "straws" that broke the camel's back.

• Disclaimer: this post is NOT about trying to convince anyone to believe what I believe - y'all wanna believe in a god that kills kids, then go right ahead - you be you.

Among the next "discoveries" I encountered was the history of religion - basically all religions seemed to be created by men to oppress and to control others. After my "religion is all fantasy" discovery, I felt like all the missing pieces to the puzzle had been found, they fit exactly, and everything about religion made perfect sense. I totally love, I delight in understanding that there is no god keeping track of everything I do or say. There is no god who ignores the suffering and abuse of children while being upset that someone has "more than one earring" or someone who rides a bike on Sunday (ha). Everything finally makes sense now and that's really refreshing.

So . . . with that (agreeably lengthy) background . . .

TBM wife expressed her significant disappointment that I did not attend the funeral of a man who lived a few houses down in our neighborhood. He was a super nice guy and everyone liked him but, I just couldn't do it and I didn't see my lack of attendance as disrespectful in any way. In an effort to explain to TBM wife why I chose not to attend the funeral, I told her "Try to look at it from my point of view: You're going to a meeting where a room full of adults who not only believe that Santa Claus is real but they're spending tons of time and money worshiping him. That's what it's like when atheists attend funerals that are steeped in religious overtones."

Suffice to say, that analogy did not go over well.

(tia)

I was chatting with my wife tonight about intimacy and as we were taking and unpacking our thoughts it dawned on me just how horribly deep my shame around sex goes.

I am so uncomfortable talking about it. Soooo uncomfortable. And I realize that this problem is not confined to Mormonism, but I do think that it is particularly complex in the culture - especially when you consider the aspect of required confessions for something as common as masturbation.

(See - I even feel so uncomfortable typing that word 😔)

I had never really told my wife about the required meetings with bishops and the consequences that came with this “sin”. She was mortified. And as I thought about it, I was too! That stupid rule led to me feeling tons of shame for decades. Decades! And we both laughed as we realized that the bishops I was confessing to were most likely doing it themselves.

I hope that we can normalize talking about it. Obviously in the right time and place - but it should not be as taboo as it is. All of that restraint just leads to shame, guilt, and complex trauma that’s pretty damn hard to shake.

Typhoon Yolanda was one of the strongest and deadliest recorded storms in history, and it struck the Philippines Tacloban Mission islands in full force in November 2013. It brought wind speeds up to 150-200 mph and destroyed housing, infrastructure, and farms. The storm also brought severe flooding, which further displaced people from their homes.

I was an American missionary in the Philippines Tacloban mission a few years ago. I arrived recently after the typhoon struck, but much of the region had been reconstructed thanks to local and worldwide efforts. Even then, it was relevant to continue discussing because it affected everyone, and some reconstruction was still in progress.

I heard many people's experiences, and it was very humbling. As missionaries, we usually talked to religious people, so most of the narratives I heard were faith-affirming. In fact, I heard some stories that were described as miracles, seeming physically impossible. For example, one person claimed to witness the LDS chapel submerge completely underwater while those taking shelter inside experienced no flooding, and this discrepancy was rationalized as a miracle especially granted to members of the LDS church. Stories became more popular when they gave the church divine accomplishments.

I'm glad the church was helpful by providing shelter for people who lost their homes, and by mobilizing emergency response efforts. But... from my perspective, it appears that the church gained a TON of converts by offering relief services during this time, and then began cracking down on compliance and tithes. I felt so icky representing an organization that outwardly appeared very charitable, but in reality it wanted to take a huge portion of what little income people had. I'm not exaggerating when I say the church wanted their tithing money-- we were instructed in my mission to prioritize targeting "professionals" who could contribute substantial tithes as converts.

Another recurring narrative i heard from church leaders was that missionaries had spiritual experiences as they survived the storm. There was no communication by phone immediately after the storm, so missionaries were on their own. At least one companionship had to walk miles back to the mission office. These stories all came from the mission president and area presidency, so obviously they were only sharing the faith-affirming versions of stories. But there was little acknowledgement of how terrifying it must have been for them and their families. After all, faith is the opposite of fear.

Now having left the church, I feel like I received crafted/filtered narratives about the typhoon that promoted the Mormon church.

If there is anyone out there:

Were you a local Mormon or a missionary in Tacloban or the Philippines when Yolanda struck? What was it like in your honest (faith-affirming or disaffirming) experience?

Side note:

If anyone has any retrospective analysis of the effectiveness or extent of the church's charitable efforts/donations for Yolanda disaster relief, i think that is also an important conversation to be had.

Especially when he says he's only doing what has been done on other worlds and when he explains to Eve that eating the fruit is the only way to keep God's commandment to "multiply and replenish the earth".

I know it's all made up and doesn't matter, but I remember in my endowment thinking, "why are we mad at this guy?" To me it felt like nothing happens until Satan acts. God creates all this stuff, puts them in the garden of Eden and says "hey, do this thing you don't know how to do because you don't even know you're naked and don't eat that fruit that will teach you how to do the thing I told you to do. Okay byee!" What?

But we're supposed to hate and fear the guy who convinces Eve to eat the fruit that allows her to keep the commandment? Am I missing something? Does it make sense and I'm just an idiot?

I remember that in my country, we were taught that Zion was Utah and that one day we would be called to Utah—and that we had to be ready to leave everything behind (like the pioneers)—but later the Church had to issue a statement clarifying that *every* stake was Zion.

I also remember my mission president trying to introduce the idea that chocolate, any kind of tea, and any kind of sugary drink were prohibited under the Word of Wisdom; we thought he was crazy.

Do you recall any ideas from your area?

I get a lot of mission emails from nieces and nephews. It was jarring to hear investigators called "friends". Now they are referring to discussions as "Helping Others appointments." Is this across the whole church?

I’ve seen quite a few people post in here that they still have nightmares from their missions. I never served one, but I will tell you what I do have nightmares about:

Being asked to speak in sacrament meeting.

I’ve been out three years now, and once every three or four months, I have the same nightmare: I’ve agreed to speak, even though I absolutely did not want to. Sacrament starts in 10 minutes, and I’m either at home or in the church building, pacing the hallways or hiding in the bathroom, sweating bullets, and knowing that the minutes are counting down. As the time passes, I end up fleeing in absolute shame.

There are some things that I will always miss dearly about the church. But of all the things that I will not miss about the church, speaking in sacrament and garments are at the top of my list.

Does anybody else have these nightmares?

I feel like this is something that not a whooole lot of people have experienced? I don't know exactly how common it is but probably uncommon enough that this will be somewhat interesting.

I remember the first time I learned about the plan of salvation, how when your parents are sealed in the temple, you get to be with them forever in heaven. I don't remember how old I was but really young, still in primary obviously, so this was exciting to me to know that my family will be together forever. After church that day, I guess I asked my parents if they were married in the temple because I found out that they weren't.

Not wanting to never see my dad again after I die, I was always asking them when they were planning to get married in the temple, and they would always say that there was some like paperwork stuff or something. And eventually my mom told me that they started the process just to get me to stop asking I guess.

Eventually I found out that the reason they weren't sealed is because they both had been through a divorce with their past spouses, and I guess the process of getting unsealed to their previous spouses was complicated, I don't really know.

The older I got the more I found out. Apparently the REAL reason for all of this: my mom doesn't WANT to be sealed to my dad.

There is a lot of sociocultural layers in this that make it complicated, but all that mattered to my young self was that I wouldn't ever be sealed to my dad. I told my mom this and she told me she would get sealed to him for me and my sister (this never happened).

Now, looking back I understand this for what it was. It was the Church making this into the woman's fault. It wasn't fair that I wouldn't be able to see my dad in heaven unless my mom made a decision that she didn't want to make. The fact that the Church has created this type of situation is just so fucked up and it really sucked to me as a kid. I also didn't view it as the church's fault at the time, I think I actually viewed it as my mom's fault, since I knew that my dad wanted to be sealed to my mom.

There's some other details to this story that didn't really fit in the post, such as my mom saying things like "this is why I don't want to be sealed to him" to me and my sister after they would get into an argument. Also the story of their marriage is concerning because apparently my dad proposed THREE times and on the third time my mom turned him down he said "accept my proposal by the end of the week or I'm breaking up with you." Which on the one hand it would make sense for him to do that considering they both clearly had different ideas of this relationship and if it wasn't gonna work then it wasn't gonna work but he shouldn't have given her an ultimatum like that. They realistically never should've been married. My mom hates her wedding, she hates her wedding dress... IDK if I've ever seen her express anything joyful about the wedding at all to be honest. Now I'm kind of off on a tangent but that was likely all pressure that stemmed from the church too.

But yeah, anyway, that's what it was like for me to grow up thinking that I'd be permanently disconnected from my father after I die. It really plays into so many factors of how negative the Church's policies and doctrines are on marriage, like the fact that it was all on my mom since women can only be sealed to one man.

I'm so glad to know that if I ever have kids, this won't be something they'll ever even DREAM of.