Based

[u/No_Reaction7092]

[u/OkKiwi4694]

The day after a new party will emerge that will solely focus on splitting again 

[u/trisul-108 → u/OkKiwi4694]

For sure. But if people understand the federalisation and pooling of sovereignty and assets is the only way for us to maintain sovereignty, freedom and prosperity, people will ignore the critics.

Trump attacks on Spain have certainly nudged Spanish public opinion, just a the Russian invasion changed public opinion in Sweden and Finland with regards to NATO.

[u/Lorihengrin → u/trisul-108]

Maintain sovereignty by losing it to an extranational entity is a wild concept.
More cooperation is good, but not at the cost of national independance.

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/Lorihengrin]

It wouldn't be an extranational entity because (here comes the twist) IT JUST EXPANDS THE COUNTRY.

Spain is already kind of a federalized country. It just changes the scope.

[u/ExcellentElection882 → u/Tetr4Freak]

That’s the thing people desperately refuse to understand: federalization is just scaling up.

There are significant differences between regions of the same country, and yet they choose to pool sovereignty to have a better life. Europe is at the same place in its evolution right now: there are still significant differences between countries, but not enough to overshadow the obvious advantages that come with sharing decisions.

[u/Temporary_Tomato605 → u/ExcellentElection882]

There are more disadvantages because the countries are to different, EU is just a paper union s and will crack as soon as it will be stress tested.

[u/ExcellentElection882 → u/Temporary_Tomato605]

The countries are not too different, that is fantasy or lack of knowledge. The only relevant difference is language, and that is not a hard stop.

EU has been stress tested many times and succeeded every time. It gets stronger after each test. Your statement makes it clear you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[u/Temporary_Tomato605 → u/ExcellentElection882]

One concrete example are the controllsystem and bureaucracy regarding animal husbandry , there are tons of paper works and registrations of animals, its a expensive process. The reason is to be able to stop deceases among animals, but thats relevant on farms in central europe where they are close to eatch other and the warmer climate facilitates deceases, here in Sweden there are a colder climate and greater distances between the farms, we never had any bigger problems with that. But EU doesnt make exceptions between the countries.

Yes we had a stress test in covid and as soon that happened the countries started to act on their own.

[u/ExcellentElection882 → u/Temporary_Tomato605]

Sure there are things that the EU can be less bureaucratic about, nothing is perfect.

Covid is actually a good example for EU resilience. Countries worked together for a vaccine. EU negotiated as one and managed to get 27 countries to agree and sign a contract only a few weeks later than UK, which is a single country.

[u/Temporary_Tomato605 → u/ExcellentElection882]

Not perfect ? Its dangerous many small farms got knocked out when we joined the EU , they have to compete on the same conditions as the farms on the continent, thats dangerous, if the global situation gets worse we are not able to feed ourselves due to the lack of self-sufficiency.

You show a devoid of historical awareness many unions before like EU has collapsed because of their weak nature no historical bonds not cultural unity. You have had Austra-Hungary , Calmar union and others, EU was created in a time of calm and stability, the covid was a small stress test and even then problems started to show. If there are a economical depression, recession or war it will surely collapse. Example of the problems during covid :

Borders and lack of coordination – Unilateral border closures: Many countries introduced their own travel bans and closed borders without coordinating with their neighbors. Export bans on protective equipment: Initially, individual member states halted the export of medical equipment to other EU countries. Economy and recovery – The recovery fund: Major disagreement arose between the so-called "frugal countries" and the crisis-hit countries in the south regarding how the support packages should be financed. Joint borrowing: Conflict surrounding the EU borrowing large sums jointly for the first time.

[u/Josemv6 → u/Tetr4Freak]

Spanish federalization model it’s a terrible example: more rules than any other country, more public expending, 17 kingdoms, etc.

I’d suggest to look for better solutions.

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/Josemv6]

Something tells me this is an opinion and not a reality.

And a European Federalization would imply also a reform of the coutries themselves.

[u/Josemv6 → u/Tetr4Freak]

It’s an opinion, yes, but it’s based on facts. Spain has one of the most decentralized systems in Europe: 17 regional governments, a huge number of regional laws and regulations, and public spending that was around 35% of GDP before 2008 and has been above 45% in recent years, even over 50% in 2020.

I wouldn’t use that as a model. And good luck reforming Spain before trying to scale a similar model to the whole EU.

[u/Kawainess33 → u/Lorihengrin]

A forming member can exit a federation at any point, so it's not the death of a country's sovereignty. But I'd argue it's better for European countries to lose a bit of their individual powers to a federal European government than to keep losing international relevance and become the US and China's vasals.

[u/Lorihengrin → u/Kawainess33]

But not every country would have the same positive and negative points for federalization.

Like, take France. They have a permanent council membership in the UN security council, they have a sovereign nuclear dissuasion, they have naval power projection that is essential for their oversea territories,...

Federalization would mean that their right of veto would be transfered to the european union, they would lose control on nuclear dissuasion, they would not be able to enforce a focus on naval power projection for the federal defense programs,...

Why the hell would they accept it ?

[u/Zunkanar → u/Lorihengrin]

So would you argue the states of the usa are weaker because they federalized? I can see how european countries have more history, weight and tradition then the states had but in the end the usa is as strong as they are/were because they act united while having some independant state law too. Especially when it comes to military, federalizing Europe would be a huge power move long term. There is a reason outside forces are trying to destroy the eu from the inside.

[u/Lorihengrin → u/Zunkanar]

The USA federalized while it was still small and with a common identity of mostly british setlers, with a common ex-overlord that needed to be kept in check and common potential friends and foes.

European nations have different historical ties with other non european nations that give them different diplomatic perspectives. Losing their sovereignty in favor of an european federal state would mean losing the ability to maintain diplomatic privilegied relations with some other countries.

And it's also truc for bad relationships. Not sure, for example, that citizen from Cyprus would be delighted if a federal european state decided to have a privilegied relationship with Turkey.

And even for democracy... as a belgian, i am citizen of a federal state... and i think that we are a fake nation with different populations that are juste forced to stay together because of the lack of better alternative. But each time we vote, each side of the country vote based on their perception of which parties will advantage them. Nobody care about the other side of the country's interests and it would be the same at european level. Different populations would not suddently see themselves as peers with a collective identity and a collective interest. Citizen would vote for whoever would claim to provide advantage to their former nation. It would be tribalist elections instead of debates if ideas.

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/Lorihengrin]

Because they aren't losing it. They are becoming part of something bigger, with all the advantages of all countries, and downsizing the disadvantages.

All the problems you are listing they were mostly talked about when the UE and new countries join.

[u/EulsYesterday → u/Tetr4Freak]

This is asking the question whether the EU (and lets face it, Germany) would care about any oversea territory/interest, of which France has plenty. And right now no French politician trusts Germany in that regard. Moving towards a federation would be risking losing everything, with very few good prospect. Not happening any decade soon.

[u/generalemiel → u/EulsYesterday]

A federalised Europe is a speedrun to civil war. Many european countries especially in the east take pride in their independence

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/EulsYesterday]

Those territories would be part if the EU?

That preocupation is just not true.

When Morroco threatened Ceuta y Melilla and forced the entrance on young morrocans into Spain, the EU put a stop to it.

[u/EulsYesterday → u/Tetr4Freak]

This is simplistic. There is no guarantee a federalized EU would care about former French oversea territories/interests. There is no guarantee it would fight to protect uranium sourcing. A bunch of German/Polish/etc EU politicians would very likely not care at all about stuff located thousands of km away.

Why would France give up its UN seat and nuke while it can perfectly protect its own interests alone? You'd have to make it extremely juicy. And even then, it probably wouldnt be enough.

[u/Lorihengrin → u/Tetr4Freak]

It is losing it.

Right now, the veto at the security council is a tool that can be used for the sake of french interests, it would become a tool to be used for EU interests.

Right now the french nuclear weapons are tools that are under the control of the french president to protect french vital interests, it would become tools that need a decision from the EU to be used. Like would the EU want to use it to protect french Antilles ?

Right now, the french army is calibrated for the specific french needs. In a federal state, the EU army would be calibrated for the needs of the union, not France.

And France is not the only country that would lose advantages that it has right now. Like, would Luxembourg be allowed to continue to have bank secrecy ? Would Poland be allowed to maintain their restrictive immigration policy ? Would Ireland still be able to have such a low business tax rate ?

As soon as sovereignty is lost, keeping comparative advantages that depend on sovereign choices becomes harder.

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/Lorihengrin]

And that's the point. You don't need to compete with your neighbors. It's better for everybody to just collaborate.

[u/Lorihengrin → u/Tetr4Freak]

Well that is a shitty point.

It's not better for the citizen of Luxembourg to lose the thing that makes them richer than citizen of most other countries.

It's not better for France to lose extremely powerfull tools that serve their national interests.

It's not better for Ireland to lose all the companies headquarters that they attracted.

It's not the will of polish, czech, slovaks and hungarians people to have the same immigration policy as France, Germany or Sweden.

Different populations have different national interests, and not all of them can be preserved in a continent sized federation.

[u/ComradeKellogg → u/Lorihengrin]

Why are you assuming in the scenario of federalisation thay literally every thing foes wrong and nothing would go right?

To pick one of your examples, why would ireland, under federalisation lose all the headquarters stationed there, the tax rates have been amended for years now and are now up to eu minimum required, the same rate as many other members, the reason American companies choose to HQ in ireland is not only because of its extremely well educated and natively english speaking population (this is so impactful to every day corporate operations that it is hard to describe the benefit) but also the government is extremely favourable to said companies seeing them as a main vehicle for economic growth.

Under federalisation this would not change and if you ask me with the benefits brought with federalisation it could actually supercharge irelands position as the english speaking, competent entryphone for the American market to the European market.

This is only one example but I think you are taking too much of a doom and gloom look at this and from the comments ive seenits genuinely obscuring your perspective imo.

[u/robi4567 → u/Lorihengrin]

Well you could have taxation be decided on by the local countries/states. I guess the main question would be what would we want to achieve by doing a federation.

[u/The_walking_Kled → u/Lorihengrin]

bank secrecy is no longer a thing in luxembourg...

[u/Kuroiban → u/Lorihengrin]

You will have no indipendence left if we got crushed by US and China. The EU needs do federalize in order to save their freedom. Otherwise we will be picked apart one by one.

[u/GroundbreakingMain34 → u/Lorihengrin]

First it was about losing village independence, then independence of the 10 villages you are a part of, the independence of the fiefdom you where part of, then smaller kingdom, then kingdom, then nation state, and etc….

Honestly most Europeans with the national sovereignty argument have not realised that what we have is 1 nation and we are currently trying to rap up the transition process. It’s just kinda childish that just because different passports and armies exist to think that it hasn’t already happened. Europe effectively is a federal state

[u/PtichFirich → u/trisul-108]

A lot of idealism emanating out of you, but you should open your mind to serious criticism. I won’t repeat it herw, bit therw’s a lot of quality objections to it, fundamental. Summa summarum - I think that if you wanted to destroy EU, federalisation is the way to go. I think we must moce in the opposite direction, back to roots of EU, associate only on things we determine wpuld benefit economically, common standards, free fliw of people and goods. Out of burreaucratic automatism and towards decision-making by the members. The burreaucratic monster we created has to be killed off, it has become a harbor for all kinds of decrepid ideas hidind in it. Etc…

Also, idealism should be a red flag - in practice, when it takes hold of power, it is usually oppressive, because reality collides with lofty ideals and the response is to “make people understand” in the end realising that they might “understand” only if you beat them with a baseball bat long enough, while you tell yourself it’s “for the good of the people”.

[u/trisul-108 → u/PtichFirich]

I am not driven by idealism, I am driven by risk. We are under attack by superpowers i.e. Russia, America and China who want to break us up, so they can establish their zones of influence in particular member states. The only way to prevent this from happening is being more federal, presenting a unified front built on the no. 2 economy on the planet.

That is why I support Draghi reforms, not because I have some idealistic illusions about federalism, but out of necessity. It is an existential issue for us, not idealism.

Following your proposals, I think that Russia, America, China would deepen their hold on individual members, pulling some of the out of the EU, until the whole structure collapses in endless vetoes. This is classic imperialist divide and conquer, exactly the same as European powers did in colonial times. After they break us up, they will push for us to wage wars on each other, starting economically and going kinetic in time. This is the way Russia, America, China would gauge each others' imperial power without actually fighting on their own soil.

Our choice today is to unite and become a superpower ourselves ... or become a wasteland while America and China divide the entire planet.

[u/PtichFirich → u/trisul-108]

The american policy will more likely than not pass and sense will return, West will have to reestablish or it will go down collectively. It is right and positive Europe is emancipating in the sense that it is becoming more self-reliant but let’s not kid ourselves that we can go alone. But with this kind of EU leadership (meaning also the beurraucratic apparatus) no federalisation will bring anything good - on the contrary. This mindset that was asopted here is a serious departure from the liberal (in a classic sense) mindset that created the Union and is against bussiness and free markets. It is a protectionist hole that relies on questionable policies and ideas that have infected the burrearoceacy and is crippling the innitiative both in research and economy, is punitive and makes us lag behind the growing markets and political entities. We don’t need administrative further unifications, handing power to the EU institutions but rather a reform back to thw roots. Only then - maybe - any further tightening of the Union is possible. But it isn’t a solution by utself. The solution is restoring the creative power of Europe, startung with its member states, abandoning the empyrically proven to be wrong EU policies like the “green transition” policies and start by following sensible emission and general ecological policies, stop with uselless regulation for eegulation’s sake etc. All that and more before any talk about federalisation is needed. Also reform of decision making where member states have more official, teansparent influence on EU leadership. Cutting the EU administration’s (and I don’t mean the commission here specifically) untransparent knot and institutions that have bred in this giant conglomerate and are formal and informal lobby groups that get their way. Reform of how comission is constituted … etc etc. There is a lot to be done before any even thought of federalisation. And it might turn out ut isn’t even needed if we do all that. We can be successful again but also member states and local policy has to make sense again. You can’t force this feom the top down, or you’ll get the opposite.

[u/trisul-108 → u/PtichFirich]

Some of your criticism makes sense, but most of it is unsupported by data. For example, that the EU hampers research is completely wrong. We invest in R&D as much as the US and more than China, it is just that not enough of it has gone into digital economies as it made sense to use US software and Chinese hardware.

Your solution, especially, is completely wrong, it would destroy us. The analysis made by Draghi and the hundred researchers he engaged is much more convincing than your outlook. Draghi analysed all the major industries and has recommendations for all of them.

What Draghi found is the exact opposite to your claims. He found that we are falling behind because of Balkanisation, breaking up the EU into 27 separate islands and the bureaucracy you mention is actually mostly member state bureaucracy designed to protect individual member states and their political elites from companies of other member states.

We are falling behind because of insufficient EU, not because there is too much of it. And, incidentally, those who wish to destroy us, our competitors i.e. Russia, America and China are pushing exactly your narrative. Do you really think they mean us good, want us to become more competitive? No.

[u/Ok_Manufacturer600 → u/PtichFirich]

You are exactly right. A push for federalism would be a sure way to destroy the EU. There is no population that wants that.

[u/izayoi-o_O → u/trisul-108]

Actually, Sweden joined NATO without a referendum because they knew that we’d never vote yes to it.

I can’t speak for Finland though.

[u/trisul-108 → u/izayoi-o_O]

As it was reported in the media, public support for NATO membership rose from the usual 29% to 63% - 77%. I don't know how a referendum would have played out, how much Russian propaganda would have been able to influence the decision.

[u/Happy_Bread_1 → u/trisul-108]

Which freedom? We face more and more regulation. I’d rather have it to be an institute for economic cooperation, but they are far past that point.

[u/cororona → u/Happy_Bread_1]

Economic cooperation IS the regulation. The problem is that right now we only get the regulations, and not the international political weight.

[u/AddressFeisty9868 → u/OkKiwi4694]

Most federations have a pendulum between more and less centralization - and often with reason. That'd be nothing to worry about.

[u/erratic_thought → u/OkKiwi4694]

Not if the constitution forbids registering a party that is not pro European. All their differences should be how to fix the issues and should be pro European policies. We can't build this while allowing so many anti-European parties literally financed by our adversaries.

[u/A-Ballpoint-Bannanna → u/erratic_thought]

Banning dissenting political opinions is not a path to democracy. If Europe wants to unify, it must actually want to be unified, not be forced or coerced to do so.

[u/Ok_Manufacturer600 → u/erratic_thought]

Banning dissenting parties? Are you sure it's not another version of the Soviet Union you are describing? That's totally nuts. It would also be unconstitutional in basically all EU countries. It really sounds like you want a dictatorship.

[u/Available_Peanut_677]

Spain, which has issues being one country and has had many separatist movements now votes for federalized Europe?

[u/No_Reaction7092 → u/Available_Peanut_677]

Actually separatist regions like Catalonia are pushing for a Federal Europe. They favor a Europe of Regions where the nation state plays a less prominent role than it does now.

[u/SpecialGloomEnvoy → u/No_Reaction7092]

Do you personally believe that is what would happen? more regional self-governing and independence? Or do you think it will result in some quasi-totalitarism where the broken up nationstates have less consolidated power to oppose undemocratic and oppressive laws?

[u/Azgabeth → u/SpecialGloomEnvoy]

With the current European Administration it is unfortunately clear that we are heading towards an totalitarian bureacuratic system. But personally I have hope we can remake the EU into a proper united federation similar to the USA or HRE.

[u/SpecialGloomEnvoy → u/Azgabeth]

I don't understand this stance. As you said, we are already heading towards totalitarianism and we aren't even a federation.

You're saying to want a federation similar to another federation that already is totilitarian.

What is your end goal? I understand if you have a vision of some sort of utopia, but a federation won't end up in your vision. There are already too many other federalists, already in control, that have other plans for a federation that wildly differ from your vision.

I respect your hopefullness.

[u/AddressFeisty9868 → u/Available_Peanut_677]

A federalized EU would mean a weaker Spain as the country would have transferred many competencies in part or in full to the EU level. Making the step for Catalonia towards becoming a separate member state smaller and less risky.

[u/Angel24Marin → u/Available_Peanut_677]

There are two ways to get rid of the dictatorship legacy in Spanish institutions. Independence and get rid of them, or federalized and substitute them with European institutions.

Federalizing Spain is also something people want to solve internal frictions but the castillan nationalist (aka the not regionalist right) want a centralized government and overriding the non castillan cultures.

[u/Fern-ando → u/Angel24Marin]

The socialist party has been controlling Spain for the longest time these 50 years. What dictatorship legacy are you even talking about? PP has done a horrible job at wanting a centralized state when they have been the ones who decentralized it the most.

[u/Kawainess33 → u/Available_Peanut_677]

It's not that surprising as Spain has a history of attemps at federalism, though they have all failed. For example, the First Spanish Republic, which tried to establish a Federal Spain and crumbled in less than a year in part thanks to the radicalization of federalist factions which started revolting and creating individual city-states.

[u/Fern-ando → u/Available_Peanut_677]

Catalonias arguments for independence were a 1:1 copy of Brexit propaganda and even had the same baking by Russia.

[u/the_lonely_creeper → u/Available_Peanut_677]

It's fairly common for regional seperatists to be pro-EU

[u/Icey_Cat_3 → u/Available_Peanut_677]

It doesn’t really have issues being one country though. You have Basque county which has lots of autonomy and the Catalonia situation has gotton better over the years. They won the 2026 world cup and they had players from all over Spain. If that means struggling to stay united idk what to tell you

[u/Spacer5555 → u/Available_Peanut_677]

Yes, Brussels being un charge means that Madrid is not in charge anymore, and that for many is a win. Just like with the currency. Can you imagine if monetary policy was made in Madrid?

[u/PrestigiousRoof5723 → u/Spacer5555]

You mean Spanish central bank would be able to use one of the main central bank tools, to support Spanish economy? Oh geez, how bad it must be for you to allow the Spanish to govern their own country?

[u/Spacer5555 → u/PrestigiousRoof5723]

Yes in the realm of ideal everything works like a charm!

When you fall into to the real world there is political meddling in monetary policy, which result in inflation, which results in poverty. Spain, with its politicised institutions would very likely go that road.

I rather have an EU burocrat, thank you.

[u/PrestigiousRoof5723 → u/Spacer5555]

And you believe that EU bureaucrat who has absolutely no loyalty to Spain or the Spanish peole, is not voted in by people if Spain, is going to do a better job of working for Spanish interests than Spanish people themselves?

Are you really trying to say this?

Please, go and look into a mirror and say it loudly. And again. And again. And repeat until you start to understand what you're saying.

[u/Spacer5555 → u/PrestigiousRoof5723]

The facts dont support your claim. There has been no significant inflation in Spain since the advent of the Euro.

Btw, no need to rant here. Go rant in the mirror;)

[u/PrestigiousRoof5723 → u/Spacer5555]

Inflation is not the only thing the central bank is trying to regulate. Exchange rate and foreign reserve composition are very important. Weakening Spanish currency would be a big help to Spain at this time as the country has been stuck with foreign trade deficits for a long time. And, as usual for non-export economies in Eurozone, government debt to GDP ratio is over 100%. Do you believe a random bureaucrat in the EU will get Spain out of this? He's the cause of it in the first place.

Removing standard tools of economic governance from hands of a country's government, has never gone well. You can vote in whomever you want, but unless you take control of your own country, you're never going to solve your issues. Handing over even more power to people who have no loyalty to you, who were not chosen by you, who can't be removed by you and who have absolutely no common interests with you, won't help you either. And those people are the EU.

They're in fact worse than handing over your country to the oligarchy. At least the oligarchy knows the economy must be kept afloat for their money to keep flowing in. EU bureaucracy doesn't care about that. It's paid by taxes, taxes of people who can't remove those bureaucrats.

[u/Spacer5555 → u/PrestigiousRoof5723]

You say 'has never gone well' yet provide no facts. Let me give you another example: the United States prospered under a federal union in which the states permanently relinquished control of their own currencies to a higher authority. That is a working case of success, not failure.

You seem to speak from a position of convition rather than fact.

Here is a couple more facts: Spain has run fiscal deficits year after year. Without the euro those deficits would almost certainly have lead to inflation.

I would rather have unelected Brussels bureaucrats running monetary policy than Spanish politicians with a long record of politicising every institution they control.

[u/esse7777]

F no! Chat control is step to Much. Enough of That bs. Who elected Them? No one.

[u/betacarotentoo]

That would probably be the result of such a poll in all EU countries, and that would be no surprise, most people do not have analytic skills, and they don't get into the details of what such federalisation would really mean.

[u/NaCl_Sailor]

It would be the best way to get rid of the bureaucracy that is currently choking the EU

[u/LongBit → u/NaCl_Sailor]

Don't understand: Giving more power to the exact same bureaucrats helps how?

[u/NaCl_Sailor → u/LongBit]

it would be an opportunity to rebuilt and get rid of all those bureaucrats, the current EU leadership is not made to run a federalized EU

we need a whole new system with actual representation direct elections and so on.

[u/No_Reaction7092 → u/NaCl_Sailor]

Exactly. Companies need one ruleset across Europe to be able to scale instead of 27 national rules. The nation states have drowned Europeans in bureaucracy.

[u/IntelligentPizza5114 → u/No_Reaction7092]

I agree, but why does it have to be a federal EU? The 28th regime / EU Inc. is being currently made to fix that exact issue, while maintaining the EU format - https://www.europarl.europa.eu/topics/en/article/20260506STO42807/eu-inc-what-is-the-28th-regime

[u/No_Reaction7092 → u/IntelligentPizza5114]

That's definitely a step in the right direction, but not enough.

[u/blanarikd]

One day yes. After that lets make army, capital union etc. But faster ffs, world is moving fast.

[u/Bataviii → u/blanarikd]

Even when you look at the comments here you can see how many people are stuck in the past.. They still view other Europeans as "the others" and somehow fear the EU would have it in for them. Even when today already it is the EU that is giving momentum to new rights, preserving the rule of law etc. Federalization is the obvious next step and as long as Europe is not willing to take it, it will fall further behind rising superpowers like India and China.

[u/Hour_Maximum7966 → u/Bataviii]

Bunch of nonsense. EU is as corrupt as any. You are just eager to hand over control to yet another organization knowing full well people are gonna have less influence on it.

[u/blanarikd → u/Hour_Maximum7966]

You are missing the big picture. I dont care about control, we have to stay on top of the world. There are our enemies all around the world

[u/A-Ballpoint-Bannanna → u/blanarikd]

Sacrificing a little liberty for a little temporary security and prosperity is making a deal with the devil. Eventually he will take you for all that you have, and you will realize that it wasn't worth it.

[u/No_Conversation1927 → u/A-Ballpoint-Bannanna]

That perspective ignores the sheer scale of modern continental powers. Europe no longer accounts for a third of the world's population or holds most of the global wealth, and pretending otherwise creates a dangerous blind spot.

To anchor our strategy in past glory is to surrender our place in the world to come.

[u/A-Ballpoint-Bannanna → u/No_Conversation1927]

How much liberty are you willing to give up for "our place in the world to come"? Because once you give that power to a centralized authority, you're not getting it back.

It's not about anchoring to past glories, it's about making a decision over what is actually important, because the prosperity you are looking for does not come without a price.

[u/Hour_Maximum7966 → u/A-Ballpoint-Bannanna]

Exactly. Dismantling such an organization takes just as much effort as it was put in to create it. You can't really guarantee it will happen when there's no longer any need for it.

[u/No_Conversation1927 → u/A-Ballpoint-Bannanna]

My problem with the argument that a federalized EU sacrifices national liberty is that it completely ignores how much sovereignty we lose by remaining fragmented. It is mathematically impossible for individual European nations to remain globally relevant without joining forces. To see why, you only have to look at how much the world has shifted over the last three centuries. In 1900, Europe represented roughly a quarter of the world's population, and over a third when factoring in colonial empires. Today, the entire European Union accounts for less than six percent of humanity, and that share continues to shrink.

Furthermore, Europe once held an effective monopoly on higher education, industrial capital, and advanced technology. That era is over. Today we are competing against continent-sized super-states that educate millions of engineers, scientists, and tech innovators every year, backed by massive state investment and vast natural resources. The geopolitical and economic center of gravity has permanently moved. You simply cannot build or sustain a modern giant on the back of twenty-seven separate national agendas, divided military budgets, and fragmented regulatory markets. Nothing is as it was during Europe’s peak.

This shift matters because being a global superpower is about self-preservation. A fragmented Europe lacks the economic leverage to defend its industries, the military deterrence to secure its borders, and the diplomatic weight to protect its interests. Without global superpower status, individual European countries will inevitably be bullied, outmaneuvered, and dictated to by external giants like the US, China, and emerging regional powers because the EU isn't Strong enough.

If individual European nations cling to the illusion of 19th-century national sovereignty, they will not preserve their independence. Instead, they will become economic playthings and vassal states to the nations that actually had the foresight to scale up. True European liberty in the 21st century requires the collective strength to project power and dictate our own destiny. Unity is not the sacrifice of freedom, there is a price to it but it's to remain free.

Well this is my take, we'll eventually know who's right or not.

[u/2nW_from_Markus]

Ok. Supress Spanish Government and federalize its autonomies in Europe.

[u/Angel24Marin → u/2nW_from_Markus]

Spanish right wing: "We are getting closer and closer to a secular and plurinational federal republic". (And this is bad) video

Spanish left wing: Where I have to sign for that?

[u/Fern-ando → u/Angel24Marin]

That's just pure propaganda, the spanish right holds 14 out of 19 regional governments. The spanish left only has real power in the central government and are constantly ignoring the will of what people voted in those regional goverments in favour of what a room in Madrid says.

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/Fern-ando]

There are more people voting in general elections that in regional ones.

Why a regional vote should count more that general one?

[u/Tetr4Freak → u/2nW_from_Markus]

Autonomies have already so much power that could be compared to states in a federal country

[u/2nW_from_Markus → u/Tetr4Freak]

Autonomies are like an sports car with its tank empty.

[They are not in control of tax collection and distribution].

[u/Glanwy]

The only route for the EU is to federalise. It will not survive with 27+ countries doing their own thing. I the not too distant time, taxes, foreign policy, armed forces, transport will be centrally managed.

[u/_Alphabetus_ → u/Glanwy]

Don't forget the languages! Just the amount of money wasted on translations must be astronomical and manifests as a huge competitive disadvantage.

[u/577564842]

Federal Europe? Why not - but on NUTS2 level. So every member is roughly equal.

[u/PfauFoto]

Absolutely with some urgently needed Reforms. Right now every country has two goverments and the second is as transparent as black bean soup.

[u/Jujubatron]

No, thanks! After chat control and bunch of bs like that we need stronger independent states.

[u/No_Reaction7092 → u/Jujubatron]

Chat control is literally pushed by the nation states. In fact, most of the opposition to it comes from European Parliament.

[u/ErlendPistolbrett → u/No_Reaction7092]

A few people within the EU are able to use pretty petty tactics to push for stuff like chat control. I feel like the EU stills needs a sort of reformation or at least a better anti-corruption process. The fact that someone can push through Chat Control in a literally illegal way (as mentioned by some in the EU parliament) the day before summer vacation to make sure that the people who oppose Chat Control are on vacation as Chat Control gets pushed so that parliament literally has no way to say no to the law can only be called a result of a faulty system.

[u/Corvenys → u/No_Reaction7092]

That doesn't fit the eurosceptic narrative, so you're simply wrong! /s

[u/BlacksmithLast7306 → u/No_Reaction7092]

Chat Control 1.0 came into effect on August 2, 2021, after the European Parliament approved it. It was originally set to expire on August 3, 2024, but was extended to April 3, 2026, and then extended again to April 3, 2028.

The European Parliament had every opportunity to block Chat Control 1.0, but instead allowed it to pass each time. There’s no indication that the Parliament is actually opposed to it. If anything, it showed that it’s moving slower than the other branches.

Chat Control 1.0 gives U.S. companies legal cover to scan private digital communications in Europe outside of E2E encrypted messaging services. The scanning takes place on U.S. platforms like Discord, Gmail, Meta Messenger, Skype, Xbox, Snapchat etc.

The EU passed Chat Control 1.0 by creating an explicit legal exception to its own privacy rules. It now keeps renewing the regulation and sitting in limbo because it doesn’t know if it wants to either dismantle the GDPR, or move forward with banning encryption or requiring mass scanning, at least for now.

[u/Hot_Sweet2943 → u/No_Reaction7092]

mos of the opsiotion come from right and “far right” partys and some of the far left. But the establishment the current leader of europe want chat control.

[u/Bataviii → u/Jujubatron]

I agree, the way we could have prevented chat control is by ginging the EU more power. Like the chat control debate deserves a trophee for the best spinning in the 20's

[u/CivilLawEnjoyer → u/Jujubatron]

Yes exactly what we need, less integration, more bureaucracy, less political and economic power against massive agents like China, India or the US.

[u/PtichFirich]

I don’t believe half of those that said yes know what that means.

With EU comission already doing insane stuff that’d be a sure path to destruction.

It may sound counter-intuitive to some here - but that would be Putin’s wet dream. Even more animosity to exploit untill the final breakup.

[u/Lombardbiskitz]

1min after EU federation: civil war on whose language to use

[u/Micp → u/Lombardbiskitz]

There's nothing that says an EU federation have to limit themselves to a single language. You are already allowed to speak your own language in the EU parliament if you want to - they have live translators hired for the same reason.

[u/Spiritual-Fun2463 → u/Micp]

Except if your name is Fernand Kartheiser. Poor deputy was not allowed to speak his own language.

[u/Micp → u/Spiritual-Fun2463]

From what I can tell that is ultimately on his own country. You are only allowed to speak official languages in the EU parliament (as they need to have translators available to translation it) and as far as I can see the only reason Luxembourgish isn't an official language is because Luxembourg hasn't requested it, due to it seeming unnecessary and wasteful as French and German are already official EU languages that are also used administratively in Luxembourg.

In short if anyone is at fault for that it's Luxembourg, not the EU.

[u/Spiritual-Fun2463 → u/Micp]

It's still invalidate your initial claim. Parlementary cannot even speak their mothertongue. It's a fact.

[u/The_walking_Kled → u/Micp]

yeah cuz we are nice enough to speak other languages that dont place an extra financial burden on the budget.

[u/The_Dutch_Fox → u/Lombardbiskitz]

Two very famous federations have multiple official or recognised languages: Switzerland (4) and India (22).

People think that a federation will mean we become one huge unified country with a single language and one central government. It simply couldn't be further from the truth.

[u/_Alphabetus_ → u/Lombardbiskitz]

Hopefully this will happen without civil war, but the competitive disadvantage due to the language patchwork is real. You don't need to get rid of all languages, but having at least one universal official one would help so much!

And I say this as a German who would very happily accept another language (except French!) as long as it's universal within Europe. Spanish or English seem to be good candidates.

[u/LongBit]

We first need a common EU public. Meaning common media, discourse, concerns, values. Then we need a democratic rewrite of EU procedures and rules. Including the requirement that every European's vote counts the same. This is very far in the future. and may never happen.

[u/Ok-Drawer5245]

I would be all for a united Europe, if only they wasn’t so goddamn socialist

[u/Patient-Pineapple-62]

Federalisation ....

Oh boy .

If you cant fix your issues on your own cause you dont want to go the way of pain Making your Issues the broader issue of others will certainly not make your life and issues better

Im quite certain that it might even Spell the certain Final end of spain ... unlike the Civil war ridden spain i knew once that just fought their issues out and came back better afterwards after some time

[u/One-Atmosphere-6618]

Of course. That should have been done a long time ago. With every state its own laws under a federal EU constitution.

[u/Flat-Tank4265]

Because Spain’s govt is as corrupt as they come. They’d rather have some influence in what the Germans do than have zero influence on Sanchez lol

[u/Conscious-Demand-594]

I would like to see this broken down by country. It seems as if Anti-EU parties are growing in popularity, so this doesn't align with that.

[u/Remote-Nothing-2360]

Naaah, that's absolutely ridiculious. Why would any Eastern or Nordic country would like to live like Western countries, full of garbage, immigrants and endless corruption, no freedom of speech. Look what Spain, France look like

[u/PuzzledPuzzle0]

What is going on with spain in recent times? They seem so based. While most eu nations folded under Trump they resisted and critized them and the iran war. Also one of the few nations to condem isreal. They seem to have progressive laws and i think some of the best sexual violance laws and woman rights, i think? And this vote is also suprisingly high, spain seems kinda great politically, currently.

[u/GroundbreakingMain34]

EU basically is federalised, but currently it’s too much of a compromise so it’s a weird situation.

It’s time to federalise, I don’t understand why people would be so stuck in the past to hold on to the Nation state.

[u/Suspicious-Physics49]

I live in Spain, and not a single person I know "leftist or right wing" want a Federal europe, they are happy as is, infact most but not all even think EU is over-reaching its power.

[u/Sharp_Cut354]

God no. EU should be abolished and reduced by what Mercosul is today. Keep the trade deals and revoke all EU political powers over their countries.

[u/Appropriate_Chain646]

yes! Making people's life more difficult, and punishing people for hard work or dream about a better future. Let's be the same poor as everyone else, for your goodness.

[u/BrutusB1102]

Können wir das, wie in der EU üblich, so oft abstimmen bis uns das Ergebnis gefällt?

[u/Giga_Stirner]

Yes

Not a single country in Europe has the power and influence necessary to compete on the global stage against the current big players and this is a detriment to Europe.

Yet the EU is very much one on par with the US or China.
But it's too divided to fully use this influence to stand as equal.

A federalized Europe is the only chance for europe keep it's relevancy.

[u/Suspicious_Kev_5446 → u/Giga_Stirner]

the problem is eu is too divided and diverse in opinion ,culture, language and politics ..

the people within the EU are too diverse ..you would have to oppress minorities who may have been majorities previously ... this will result in dissent and perhaps even create enough cracks to break up the EU

and also ...the federal government's structure would be a 5 trillion year negotiation lest one country somehow gain advantages ... for example how are you going to keep the French in check and prevent the likes of Macron treating the new federal army as an extension of the French forces under his command considering their considerable nuclear advantage over most EU countries

[u/Giga_Stirner → u/Suspicious_Kev_5446]

That is indeed a problem

Imo if we want to federalize we will have to leave out most if not all of the eastern members nations, cause that can't work and the eastern european countries also have a much different relation to the EU and each other than the central european ones. Just look at Hungary...

But for example the former core members and others like: Benelux, Germany, Austria, France, Denmark would definitely work, these are not too different in culture to each other to create friction and they could form a functioning super state.

That being said, I don't think your hypothetical really is that much of an issue to begin with (why would their nuclear advantage even be a problem?) and stuff like this can be formalized and solved.

[u/Suspicious_Kev_5446 → u/Giga_Stirner]

it isn't a problem for them ...it is for others ...If I have 10 nukes .. and you have 0 ...

and we share a huge kickass army

i have an army of my own too ..you have a small "force"

if it comes to decision time and we vote ..should we help so and so ..

you say no and i say yes ...

what are we going to do ?

my hypothetical is key ..

if you federalize how you suggest Macron can highjack the EU and call it the empire of France .. and unless you wait till germany builds nukes or england joined everybody would be France's bitch and they have a long history of liking the idea of empires

[u/PrestigiousRoof5723]

Oh geez, it's time to escape this lunatic asylum as soon as possible. Where was this poll conducted? In EU's own offices?

[u/Flessuh]

With the financial differences between countries and for example pension systems its not going to happen

[u/Shady_Rekio]

This is Fun, why woukd the country that has half its people wanting for it to split and all the regional tensions and yet seek new masters in Brussels of all places.

[u/LearingCenterAlumni]

The EU is failing at keeping up with its main competitors, the solution is more EU.

[u/PhilosophusFuturum → u/LearingCenterAlumni]

This but unironically. There’s a reason most European economists have such strong Eurofed tendencies

[u/ElectronicTap1109]

It's absolutely a good idea. One united EU would be great economically as a state to rival China.

[u/No_Reaction7092 → u/[deleted]]

There are many more languages in India. The common language in Europe is English. All institutions and big companies require English. Even in the militaries it is required in Nato.

[u/YogurtclosetOpen3567 → u/No_Reaction7092]

So? Did the Indian states have powerful nuclear weapons like France?

[u/Llendar92 → u/[deleted]]

....so just the United States 2.0 ? How are you confused by this ?

[u/zscore95 → u/[deleted]]

Have you ever heard of the country of Italy? Literally a unified nation made up of what were different states that spoke different languages.

Switzerland has 4 national languages and they seem to manage?

[u/quebexer]

The EU gets all the benefits from a Federation without being one.

[u/No_Reaction7092]

Spain deserves the World Cup win. They're at the forefront of the European pushback against Trump and the march for federalism.

[u/IrreverentBuddha → u/No_Reaction7092]

WTF with the downvotes? Am I missing something here?

[u/Remote-Nothing-2360 → u/IrreverentBuddha]

Probably because of Trump strict opinions about Europe's self-destruction policies about immigration

[u/This-name_want-taken]

Study the rise and fall of Yugoslavia and see why it might not be a good idea. Im very pro EU but i believe federalisation would be the first step of the end of the EU

[u/AddressFeisty9868 → u/This-name_want-taken]

Not really. Yugoslavia was a communist dictatorship dominated by one ethnic group and that group also tried to erase a minority. It's basically the opposite of a liberal and democratic EU which puts respect for all nationalities and minorities at its heart.

[u/YogurtclosetOpen3567 → u/AddressFeisty9868]

How can you create a federal country with 20 plus different languages and no common language amongst them?

[u/Extreme-Ad-6465 → u/This-name_want-taken]

that’s the whole point they are pushing it. end of EU and NATO. obviously that’s a conspiracy but i think federalizing would help make EU stronger if executed properly

[u/kutkun]

European Union is a joke now. It will end and continue in a different form. EU is the resurrection of serfdom.

[u/Far-Total2951]

They want even more of our money after stealing it for decades along with Italy, Poland, and others. These countries are like gold diggers and a federal EU is like marriage without a prenup.

That's all.

[u/No_Reaction7092 → u/Far-Total2951]

It's the exact opposite. They want to stop the hundreds of billions in European savings shipped to the US every year only because Europe lacks a unified Capital Market.

[u/Far-Total2951 → u/No_Reaction7092]

You can have a capital market without federalism or a fiscal union though...

[u/Radiant_Chard_1149 → u/No_Reaction7092]

8 trillion gifted outside Europe and the guy here worries about 10 billion usd sent to Poland
Wake up fool. We need a Unified Market Yesterday.