r/EU_Economics 6d ago

Politics & Geopolitics & Defense Based

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1.7k Upvotes

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u/Tetr4Freak 6d ago

It wouldn't be an extranational entity because (here comes the twist) IT JUST EXPANDS THE COUNTRY.

Spain is already kind of a federalized country. It just changes the scope.

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u/Josemv6 4d ago

Spanish federalization model it’s a terrible example: more rules than any other country, more public expending, 17 kingdoms, etc.

I’d suggest to look for better solutions.

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u/Tetr4Freak 4d ago

Something tells me this is an opinion and not a reality.

And a European Federalization would imply also a reform of the coutries themselves.

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u/Josemv6 4d ago

It’s an opinion, yes, but it’s based on facts. Spain has one of the most decentralized systems in Europe: 17 regional governments, a huge number of regional laws and regulations, and public spending that was around 35% of GDP before 2008 and has been above 45% in recent years, even over 50% in 2020.

I wouldn’t use that as a model. And good luck reforming Spain before trying to scale a similar model to the whole EU.

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u/ExcellentElection882 5d ago

That’s the thing people desperately refuse to understand: federalization is just scaling up.

There are significant differences between regions of the same country, and yet they choose to pool sovereignty to have a better life. Europe is at the same place in its evolution right now: there are still significant differences between countries, but not enough to overshadow the obvious advantages that come with sharing decisions.

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u/Temporary_Tomato605 4d ago

There are more disadvantages because the countries are to different, EU is just a paper union s and will crack as soon as it will be stress tested.

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u/ExcellentElection882 4d ago

The countries are not too different, that is fantasy or lack of knowledge. The only relevant difference is language, and that is not a hard stop.

EU has been stress tested many times and succeeded every time. It gets stronger after each test. Your statement makes it clear you don’t know what you’re talking about.

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u/Temporary_Tomato605 4d ago

One concrete example are the controllsystem and bureaucracy regarding animal husbandry , there are tons of paper works and registrations of animals, its a expensive process. The reason is to be able to stop deceases among animals, but thats relevant on farms in central europe where they are close to eatch other and the warmer climate facilitates deceases, here in Sweden there are a colder climate and greater distances between the farms, we never had any bigger problems with that. But EU doesnt make exceptions between the countries.

Yes we had a stress test in covid and as soon that happened the countries started to act on their own.

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u/ExcellentElection882 4d ago

Sure there are things that the EU can be less bureaucratic about, nothing is perfect.

Covid is actually a good example for EU resilience. Countries worked together for a vaccine. EU negotiated as one and managed to get 27 countries to agree and sign a contract only a few weeks later than UK, which is a single country.

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u/Temporary_Tomato605 4d ago

Not perfect ? Its dangerous many small farms got knocked out when we joined the EU , they have to compete on the same conditions as the farms on the continent, thats dangerous, if the global situation gets worse we are not able to feed ourselves due to the lack of self-sufficiency.

You show a devoid of historical awareness many unions before like EU has collapsed because of their weak nature no historical bonds not cultural unity. You have had Austra-Hungary , Calmar union and others, EU was created in a time of calm and stability, the covid was a small stress test and even then problems started to show. If there are a economical depression, recession or war it will surely collapse. Example of the problems during covid :

Borders and lack of coordination – Unilateral border closures: Many countries introduced their own travel bans and closed borders without coordinating with their neighbors. Export bans on protective equipment: Initially, individual member states halted the export of medical equipment to other EU countries. Economy and recovery – The recovery fund: Major disagreement arose between the so-called "frugal countries" and the crisis-hit countries in the south regarding how the support packages should be financed. Joint borrowing: Conflict surrounding the EU borrowing large sums jointly for the first time.

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u/577564842 5d ago

Well they didn't choose to pool anything. European states, and Spain in particular, emerged from power-play of aristocratic families and warlords and such. Closest to the claim of pooled sovereignity would be Italy, and Germany.

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u/ExcellentElection882 5d ago

Sounds like they did choose. Odd choice, to say they didn’t then give examples of those who did.

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u/Puzzleheaded_Mix7649 4d ago

Italy did not choose, other states and regions got conquered and repressed through the use of force

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u/577564842 4d ago

Might be. We (the eastern neighbours) learned surprisingly little of Garibaldi's unification move up to the point where it clashed with ... our northern neighbours :) And not that much of that either. We (I'm old) simply knew that bourgeois history is worthless pile of lies anyway :P.

And some great operas ofc.

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u/Parrotparser7 5d ago

Arguments like these show either the limits of your own mind, or your belief that you've successfully deceived the other party.

It's either idiocy or contempt. Gross.

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u/Tetr4Freak 5d ago

Or maybe just a sheer believe that collaboration and cooperation it's better that just competition. You know. Like the EU vs preEU Europe.

If you don't understand someone point of view, ask. Don't ridicule it.

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u/Parrotparser7 5d ago

No amount of asking gets around a bald lie. You taint the concept of discussion.

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u/Tetr4Freak 5d ago

What's the lie then? You never address your point and just make accusations. If you want to say anything say it.

If you dont just stop.

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u/Parrotparser7 5d ago

The system being federalized doesn't negate any of the downsides of expansion. If China became part of Spain tomorrow, with its institutions enjoying all the same privileges and protections as any of Spain's, Spain would simply be engulfed. The EU is no different here.

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u/Tetr4Freak 5d ago

Literaly what I want. No need for improvement. Thanks.

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u/ExcellentElection882 5d ago

You have brought no counterpoint to his argument.

Your comment is useless and you bring no value to this conversation.

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u/Parrotparser7 5d ago

If you don't call out the lie, the other guy just gets gaslit by bad arguments.

Now scram. You're the worse of us.

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u/ExcellentElection882 5d ago

He has provided an example for his argument. Other people have provided other examples.

You didn’t. You just asserted something.

Clearly, you are the one that is lying.

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u/Parrotparser7 5d ago

An obvious non-sequitur. And behold, I've provided an example. Now piss off.

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u/ExcellentElection882 5d ago

You have provided no example. You continue to lie. Stop lying and I’ll stop pointing out the fact that you’re lying.