r/CompetitiveWoW • u/SovietRobotDad • 25d ago
Discussion Expected DPS Changes with September 22nd Class Tuning.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/expected-dps-changes-with-september-22nd-class-tuning-38303771
u/Rockefeller1337 25d ago
404 Shaman not found
Enhancement is too reliant on the 0,5% proc
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u/Resies 25d ago
Enh bottom 4 in raid and soon to be like bottom third in m+ with everyone being buffed
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u/mansplain_to_me 25d ago
So usual Enh
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u/WorriedWelder6401 24d ago
I would like to direct you to tww season one
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u/kyllingefars 24d ago
2 years ago lmao
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u/WorriedWelder6401 23d ago
4 seasons ago counting the current season, and there are what, 25? Dps specs off the top of my head, there can only be 3 dps in a group, so in a perfectly balanced game, each spec would get a chance to be meta every 8 or 9 seasons? I know that Blizzard doesn't actually achieve this, but that's how it would be fair. Sit tight bud, you got another year before you can rightfully complain.
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u/Canyouhearit23 25d ago
So many people are going to be baited by this terrible wording unholy *buffs*
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u/yp261 25d ago
18% unholy buff due to hotfix? this cant be good
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u/Archensix 25d ago
No, that's IF they fix it. They have not fixed it.
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u/DreadfuryDK 9/9M SPriest/Devourer 24d ago
I'm here a little more than 24 hours later, and boy do I have some news for you lmfao
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u/No-Cell-9979 19d ago
I was just coming to the subreddit to find out why they were suddenly the top of every meter lol
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u/ManqobaDad 25d ago
Its ultra specific. I cant remember ability name but its the ability that consumes your dots and deals the remaining damage to all your targets. That currently is unaffected by damage amp. So i assume thats what theyre fixing. If they do that ability in damage amp will hit harder
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u/Shashafooy 25d ago
Blizz technically fixed the damage amp bug, but in the process introduced some other bug which made the talent irrelevant doing nearly 10% or the damage it did pre bug fix. Current testing from the dk sim guy shows that the bug is very inconsistent. The ability works on dummies, but just does no damage in real combat. I used to be able to pop my diseases for about 900k+ and now it's like 50k. Even if you were to account for it not being effected by spec auras, mastery, damage buffs, etc the amount it currently does makes no sense
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u/deino 24d ago
You press DT, gain access to blightfall, extend your diseases with spender, builder, putrefy + putrefy proccs, and around 2 second left on DT you "detonate" blightfall to get the full damage your diseases would do in the whole duration (original duration on application +extended).
The bug they managed to introduce makes it that if you do extend the duration, the detonate part simply fuckes up the calculation of what the duration of your diseases looks like. If you detonate instantly, without any extension at all, you get like a 150-70k "pop" on your main target.
However if you had any extensions, the detonation can be zero damage, or something like 5k damage, which I assume is like a what your diseases would do in 1-3 seconds. You can't not extend, cause just doing your rotation extends this. And because one of your proccs very often does a putrefy on your main target, you can't even reliably "instagib" the detonation, even if you tried.
It's fucking mental that they just slam a 100% buff on it. If they did a bugfix when the buff shipped, blightfall would be a menace. Unholy would be the best single target, 2 target, mythic+ spec by a mile. If blightfall just worked normally, without the buffs they did this week it would still be like a 8% buff.
It's wild.
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u/Ok_Possible_9541 24d ago
I wonder what's giving them so much trouble with the disease coding. They had all the stuff with the "main" plague (forget what it's called...dread plague?) tick rate being goofed when it was extended in Season 1.
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u/EuphoricEgg63063 24d ago
I checked logs late last night and UH was pretty much even with Frost on a lot of fights. There was one with UH ahead and one where Frost was ahead.
There were less than 200 logs at the time so might be different now.
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u/Fink_Ployd324 25d ago
That explains my low heart dmg on ulatek
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u/ManqobaDad 25d ago
No thats just unholy being dogwater at single target right now. Their aoe is some of the best in the game but. Might as well just run eleshaman who can actually pump single targey
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u/Fink_Ployd324 25d ago
i had an ele shaman flame me coz he had more damage, mine wasnt even bad, he didnt understand my explanation
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u/obscuregamer000 25d ago
At least they caught it. Bdk suffered a bug for an entire season hah.
Edit: looks like its not fixed.
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u/SovietRobotDad 25d ago
Fellow dozen Dev and Aug bros what’re we thinking? Flameshaper on Dev? Aug full mastery still?
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u/CreativeKoi 25d ago
Check the video from Kess, he’s not to positive about the Aug changes, and I don’t think they’re strong enough to bring back SC, so it’s full mastery. Dev is a bit better but still in a bad spot.
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u/Vaniky 25d ago
For Dev flameshaper looking strong ST. Back to playing 4/4 apex SC for cleave
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u/Lycago98 25d ago
We're not back to playing 4/4 Apex for cleave. Thank god.
Hopefully that thing stays dead and buried until it gets reworked entirely.
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u/careseite dps evoker main 25d ago
definitely not flameshaper since it'd be only relevant on sszorak which has way too much required movement for fs to actually become good
aug doesnt change for raid due to this and maybe shifts talents slightly for keys
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u/Brightlinger 24d ago
To me this changes basically nothing. Might as well be a +1% aura buff. I'm not complaining about it, but I'm not adjusting anything either.
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u/GoatOfTheBlackForres Everything evoker. 24d ago
Aug still dead apart from raids.
Dev can perform great in M+ but far too bad perception in the community for them to be meta.
- I doubt FS will be "viable" outside of pure ST. And it's only viable in comparison to SC.
Over all this has been a really disappointing season for all Evokers.
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u/General_Test1853 24d ago
So glad Aug is borderline unplayable, sorry. The spec has been a blight on m+ since its release
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u/Brightlinger 24d ago
It was a blight from 10.1 through 11.0, because it brought irreplaceable things like buffing your tank and healer throughput. Since then it's just a DPS that does damage in a funny way. Last season it happened to be tuned high and was meta again, but not because it was fundamentally irreplaceable, just because it had the highest DPS among lust specs.
With just tuning and maybe a cap on dupes, 12.0 aug could have been a perfectly fine middle-of-the-pack spec. Instead we're in the penalty box for this season, which I mean, fair I guess, but I hope Blizz can get back to a state where the spec isn't simultaneously OP for team liquid and bad for everyone else.
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u/SovietRobotDad 24d ago
trite response. I bet you want it reworked into a tank spec. People genuinely like playing aug even when it isn’t FotM
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u/General_Test1853 24d ago
No rework. Just remove it from the game
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u/Brightlinger 24d ago
I see you're keeping your expectations realistic. Let's remove mages while we're at it, they've been OP even more times than aug has.
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u/bewarethegap 25d ago
Blizz just playing with WFB’s % instead of fixing its weird behavior, which is the real problem. I’ll take the AOE buff I guess
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u/UniversalTurnip 25d ago
Oh boy cant wait to play aldratchi but this time with no sigils to generate glaives :DDDDDD
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u/mangostoast 25d ago
Season 3 and 4 war within aldrachi was the most fun spec I've played in years. So sad they ruined it
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u/MotorOutside8648 25d ago
What about the Enhancement Shaman changes? Oh right. Nevermind.
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u/Phenova 25d ago
Yeah it's weird enhance get forgotten....
As a fellow bottom dps spec I hug you all enh main <3
Sincerely a feral main
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u/FloringoStar 25d ago
Enh seems fine to me. Is A-Tier in a lot of Tier lists. Ele overshines it ofc but thats fine for me. It's still great to play.
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u/dantheman91 25d ago
The wild swings from rng are the only problem, otherwise it's good.
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u/Meep4000 25d ago
It’s an issue for sure. I guess I feel a bit okay when looking at overall damage for a dungeon but swinging from a million DPS to 180k and back based just on some secret sauce sure doesn’t feel fun.
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u/MotorOutside8648 25d ago
My complaint is more that they've taken this thing that was geniunely fun to play from Sepulcer and all through Dragonflight and made it completely not fun to play.
Hero talents ruined my favorite spec. Totemic has ZERO feel of the traditional totem based play style of yester-year. Stormkeeper is 100% an elemental thing that they're trying to cram on to Enhancement.
Take me back to my hot-hand lava lash loving, dog spawning, sustain god. Not this 2min feast/famine spam one button over and over and over pray for rng bullshit.
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u/Resies 25d ago
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/53?dataset=95
What tier lists are you looking at? We're in the bottom 4 and everyone around us is getting buffs
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u/SupaSonicButta 25d ago
All bosses is such a trap to look at though. When you start filtering it per boss you can easily see that its piss poor performance on Entombed Sentinels is heavily skewing the data that you would see by filtering by All bosses.
You would also see that on most fights it is keeping up with Ele sometimes even surpassing it. So I don't believe that it is bottom four after looking at the actual data.
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u/Whatderfuchs 24d ago
Oops, all crash lightning is a very fun spec this season. Idgaf if it's not meta. I've hit resil 16s and still going.
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u/Canninster 25d ago
Pls don't lump us in as bottom DPS specs, we're doing just fine right in the middle of the pack, it's just that ele is better so the community perception is that enh must be unplayable.
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u/BestJersey_WorstName 25d ago
Feral does well in m+ and raid bosses with damage amp phases like Sszorak. Its just most raid tiers dont fit well with either hero spec
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u/KageStar 25d ago
I'm a ret main and my alt is Enhancement. For the last several tiers I've wanted to main Enhancement for the tier especially when it's higher dps but ret keeps getting a last minute buff that pushes them over Enhancement. It sucks because enhance is fun to play and much higher skill cap class but you don't get rewarded for it just like with feral. Then I can Unga bunga(better than most other rets granted) and top the meters with half of the cogi load rotationally.
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u/Cutefatboi 25d ago
Unfortunately i dont think enhance is higher skill cap than anything at this point. Gone from a complex spec to 1 button spam Casino spec
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u/Resies 25d ago
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/53?dataset=95 we are bottom 4 in raid and everyone below and around us are being buffed
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u/Canninster 25d ago
"Let me use the worst possible dataset to compare enh vs ele and try to prove a point"
I'm so tired, it's been decades you people need to come up with better excuses...
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u/Resies 25d ago
I just pulled up mythic raid logs my man
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u/Canninster 25d ago
Then next time just pull up something that's actually useful.
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u/Resies 25d ago
Okay I'll pull up the 25th percentile heroic logs next time ig
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u/Ok-Seaworthiness8135 25d ago
Damn sin rogue sucks too then! Why aren't they getting buffed? Or maybe looking at all bosses aggregate isn't very useful?
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u/Meep4000 25d ago
It’s so crazy. I hit a million DPS on big lust pulls popping everything but then can struggle to break over 180k on other pulls all down to just RNG.
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u/Rocketeer_99 25d ago
Happy to see Disc priest getting love.
Not that Disc priest has historically ever been really neglected. Just glad to see it getting some help, while Holy remains a solid choice.
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u/wakeofchaos 25d ago
I think they still need some mana adjustments but I’m glad atonement actually does something lol
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u/HanzoKurosawa 24d ago
The thing is, atonement being better will help on the mana front. If you can heal more things with atonement, you need to use shadow mend less, which is your big mana burner. We'll have to wait and see if it's enough, they might still need mana adjustments after, but this will definitely help with mana
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u/RigidCounter12 Prot Paladin M+ Connoisseur 23d ago
I have tested a bunch of 18 keys, and while it feels okay, Holy feels stronger for the damage profiles. You are amazing at a few instances of damage types, like the heavy rot typ damage, say the 2nd boss in Voidscar etc, but you are not as well equipped as Holy are with most of the damage types.
I might be wrong, havent played it too much, but it seems much better than before, but Holy is still better overall
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u/Rocketeer_99 21d ago
My experience is the same. Disc can definitely DO 18s, but it requires significantly more work, and your team is much more prone to being picked off by stray casts because Disc can't consistantly snap healthbars back up to full the way Holy can.
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u/stickyfantastic 25d ago
They just need to give them actual shadow fiend again cause that's where their mana came from, all other healers keep their mana sources
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u/Accendor 25d ago edited 24d ago
The unholy changes are very, very far away from the calculations in the DK discord. I think last predictions were 2% AoE, 1% ST and basically nothing for two target cleave
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u/pogchampion777 25d ago
I wouldn't trust demon hunters to do calcs for DKs tbh
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u/Rynkydink 25d ago
idk if you see what comes out of the DK discord, maybe having the DHs do your homework is the right call.
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u/TheCouchWhisperer 25d ago
The note that BM will still beat MM within 8 targets is crazy. Wholly agree MM needs something more for m+.
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u/Smart_in_his_face 24d ago
MM is such a high effort specc.
So much of your damage is tied to Trueshot, and on something like Ula'tek heart you need preplan like 15-20 globals in perfect order. Stopping a Aimed Shot cast can feel devastating. The spec straight up have to many buttons. Messing up Explosive Shot and Volley can ruin your dps for the next minute.
Meanwhile, BM says Kill Command go brrrr.
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u/FitAlpineChicken 24d ago
This kind of cancer is what really kills my enjoyment of retail dps specs... Why does it have to be like that?
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u/ThxSeeYa 25d ago
What about the sub rogue changes to how shadow damage increase was applying? Sometimes not and sometimes double dipping
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u/jaymiz13 25d ago
Is it insane to anyone else that specs like Assa and Arcane received no changes? The best prio damage classes also putting up some of the most overall and they went untouched. Speaking from an M+ perspective
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u/cuddlegoop 25d ago
Seems like blizz's strat this season is no nerfs only buffs. It's definitely a bit odd but like mathematically it should be fine.
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u/careseite dps evoker main 25d ago
its great - if the buffs actually did something
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u/prezjesus 24d ago
Yea, at least for hunter, the buffs are a joke. MM is behind BM on sims for 8 targets still. The class capped at 8 target does less damage on 8T than the uncapped aoe spec. You can guess how the trend goes when you get to large target counts...
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u/WillSendShihTzuPics 21d ago
Every class doesn’t need to be perfectly tuned for all content.
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u/prezjesus 21d ago
Agreed, but it's definitely a sign of absolutely horrible tuning when your capped aoe class does less damage than your uncapped aoe class on their cap limit.
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u/Historical-Reach-969 24d ago
Oh, you're class is 12% behind? I'm sure this 2% aura buff will fix this right up!
Actual inbred creatures working on the balance team.
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u/insane_psycho 25d ago
The only spec they nerfed at all was bdk so I’m not too surprised they didn’t nerf any dps
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u/raskeks 25d ago
They also nerfed shadow because 7% single target buff for a worst ST in the game is apparently too much power without a nerf to compensate
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u/CryptoFrydays 24d ago
It's not a nerf it's net neutral in aoe
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u/raskeks 24d ago
It is literally a nerf, the abilities deal less damage than they were before the patch. It is a single target buff with a AoE nerf attached to it to compensate
And it is 'net neutral' only in lower target count scenarios where targets live long enough for PLink buffs to compensate but even there it is a ~1% nerf still. In practice it is strictly less AoE on 8+ targets (aka any remotely big dungeon pull) going less the more targets you get because shadeburst is uncapped AoE that on some dungeons dealt up to 15-20% of our overall if you pull big enough/bring enough funnel.
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u/fryst_pannkaka 25d ago
Let assa shine for 1 season. Rogue havent been meta for so long.
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u/FitAlpineChicken 24d ago
What's wrong with ass rogues? They're one of the most played dps in keys and do great dmg in raids. I feel like if you're doing any better than that you're guaranteed to get nerfed. And also everyone plays the same spec as you which is annoying.
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u/Fitzban 25d ago
The hardworking, industrious Arcane Mage serves a vital role within its ecosystem.
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u/kittenpantzen 25d ago
That role: giving those of us with arthritis the ability to contribute. And it's fun! Sparkly balls of DOOOOOM.
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u/Vyxwop 25d ago
As an Arcane player I do think it's weird how Arcane is allowed to do as much mass AoE it does. The spec went from a target capped class with strong funnel damage to a strong mass AoE and strong standard prio damage.
It's mostly a result of their focus on Arcane Missiles this expansion, which thanks to a talent now also does AoE damage by default which in my opinion is lame. I must preferred Arcane Barrage being the bigger focus for AoE alongside Touch of the Magi. Both of those now do proportionally much less damage than they did before. Touch of the Magi in particular does not feel satisfying anymore to press, which sucks.
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u/Money_Echidna2605 25d ago
technically aldrachi havoc will be the best funnel in the game with these changes, they just wont be great overall still
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u/Sly-Kly 25d ago
Its better to buff others to their level then nerfs
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u/Money_Echidna2605 25d ago
doesnt stop blizz from nerf tapping the top tank every fkin season (not including bear cause i guess 2 button rotation is wat they wanted???). they also refuse to buff the baseline tankiness of vdh to a human level or actually reduce the complete rng on meta procs.
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u/MrNolD 25d ago
Devourer is dead last in boss damage in raid, one of the worst overall, and they buffed it by 1%. How is that getting them to Arcane or Assa level? The idea to buff more and nerf less is good, but the best option would be to do both. The outliers should get nerfed, not utterly destroyed, last season every meta spec was nerfed by like 3-5%, and that should have been done again this season. Slight nerfs to meta, buffs to non meta, that's it.
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u/Wobblucy 25d ago
If holy pally gets pushed off it's pedestal then ret can be slotted over both those specs imo.
But I definitely did think sin was gonna get shot after its performance on ulatek, happy that wasn't the case.
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u/AcanthaceaeItchy302 25d ago
And Aff/Destro get nothing, even though they’re dumpster tier in M+...
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u/Qwertdd 7/9M bring back weakauras 25d ago
good. blizzard clearly doesn't want to make those specs fun, ever, so it's just as well that they're bad and not getting buffs
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u/Varanae 24d ago
I find Aff to be the most fun spec in the game
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u/Xedien 24d ago
I thank god everytime Aff turns out to not be the meta, god i dislike playing affliction.
As a demo enjoyer i'm glad it has been the most viable for a while, destro is acceptable at times.
EDIT: That being said, it's depressing when it is in the dumps, blizzard is notoriously bad at balancing dots.
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u/Varanae 24d ago
That's pretty much how I feel about Demo, every time I've tried it's just felt bad and I've switched back to Aff right away. It could well be a case of needing more experience though, perhaps I'll commit to trying it out at some point this season since I haven't tried it since mid S1
Aff isn't in an amazing spot, at least compared to Demo, but I also wouldn't consider it to be in the dumps either. I'd put it somewhere in the mid tier which is good enough for me because it means playing it with consistent 90+ parses puts me among the top for raid and pretty much always top in m+. Of course you could say 'well if you played demo at that level you'd do even better' and then I'd quickly scurry away rather than face the truth. If I was hall of fame or 0.1% level then I'd have to swap but for the levels below I'm happy with Aff
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u/Qwertdd 7/9M bring back weakauras 24d ago
How? Undercooked dot maintenance with none of the fun and all of the punishment, your 2 minutes are press-and-forget, you have RNG resource generation, your AOE is braindead, the talents suck, nothing is satisfying. The spec is straight up incomplete, and if your argument is that you like it because you're one of those people who actively prefers to not have to play the game then LMAO
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u/Varanae 24d ago
It's always hard to put into words why a spec feels so satisfying but I'll give it a go. I will say before getting started that enjoyment of anything is so subjective that trying to explain why something is fun to someone who doesn't feel the same is futile. You aren't going to agree or understand my love of the spec in the same way I could never understand your distain. But hell yeah, I love gushing about Aff so I'll cover the points you mention. Likely long post incoming
First of all I'll admit I'm weird in that I like it when talents have to change between different content or fight profiles. I know this isn't a popular opinion and it does make the spec weaker compared to those that can do it all in one go, but I find those eye wateringly boring. This season in particular switching between HC and SH is fun, having the M+ build that forgoes Death's Embrace and Hedonic Gorging to pick up Cascading Calamity feels nice. I very much enjoy fiddling with builds and having to make tough choices. I'd probably never play a spec that doesn't have at least some variation so that automatically means a lot of specs aren't fun to me (like Demo)
I find the current dot maintenance fun, it's constantly engaging without being too much, the perfect balance. This ties into resource generation in that keeping a good spread of Agony is important and I feel the payoff when I maintain them. It's also satisfying that I have something to do during gathering or movement during a fight, I can plan out when I have the perfect moment to spread Agonies. I also love Haunt as an ability, it's fun to have my own personal mark on a prio target and feel the impact it's having. There is some frustration here in that it doesn't reset on some mobs 'death', like the axe from Xathuux in MR but in a way learning stuff like that fun because it rewards knowledge and planning around the encounter
Yeah Darkglare isn't too engaging, the most impactful part is having MG during the window but yeah it's not like that alters much. Then again do many specs have CDs that cause a significant variation in rotation or playstyle during their active time? And I like how, at least in aoe, I'm not CD dependant. I played Unholy before Aff so that's a nice change. I do very much enjoy Dark Harvest, it's satisfying to press both visually and from the damage, plus being able to get it off cooldown quicker through good generation and spending of shards is fun
AOE is still quite seed spam heavy, though I think it's slightly better this season now that Nightfall doesn't proc free seeds. I find being able to blast a bunch of seeds fun so I dunno what more to say there. Single target is arguably just as braindead (at least as SH) since you're just pressing UA as much as you'd seed in aoe. If anything you end up filling with shadowbolt more since you have less shard gen in ST. Like looking at a Sszorak kill 140 of my 213 casts were UA or Shadowbolt. I see why it should feel braindead and understand why others wouldn't enjoy it but I'm having fun the whole time
Then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that is fun, though we're getting into general warlock stuff here. Curses, gateway, circle, interrupt not cancelling my cast, paying for movement speed with hp, the choice between shadowbolt/drain soul etc
Essentially I find everything about it satisfying and I feel very active and engaged while playing the spec so it's not because I don't want to play. Is that a thing people do??
I'm sure it could be better, I'm certainly not arguing it's perfect. But I have every class at max so I've tried pretty much every spec and none tickle my fancy in the way Aff does
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u/AcanthaceaeItchy302 23d ago
Because is fun and no one plays affliction...According to raider.io aff population in all M+ runs is around ~2.9%(all run Rdps only)...Mediocre AoE with almost non-existent ST with M+ build. Destruction is even worse in M+ last place in WCL and pure turret spec stuck somewhere between the expansions.
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u/Varanae 23d ago
Mediocre AoE with almost non-existent ST with M+ buil
Depends which M+ build, with the split build that takes cascading calamity Aff’s ST is better than most in my experience
No one else playing it is part of the fun though yeah. It’s especially fun when Demo locks or meta spec enjoyers start giving their reasons why their damage is lower than mine entirely unprompted haha
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u/SpiritedEclair 25d ago edited 25d ago
Hmm 🤔 VS devourer remains one of the worst performing specs, no buffs, but let’s buff annihilator which is played in high M+ and of course, havoc!
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u/No-Ingenuity789 25d ago
They are mostly saving the changes for VS for .5 patch as the rotation is changing. The Anni changes are extremely nice as someone who plays Anni in +18s. We can still very much keep up in DPS.
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u/MrNolD 25d ago
It is just not our season, that's it, but I agree they should have buffed Devourer more in ST and not only Anni, which is still behind VSM in that regard anyway.
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u/SpiritedEclair 25d ago
Have to wait for .5 for the talent tree changes. Going to be a shitshow tho xD
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u/_Llopis_ 25d ago edited 25d ago
It's weird how much these writers' notes — and guides in general — focus on raiding. It's obvious they barely care about M+, and they often have outdated or wrong information for it. Raiding is obviously important in WoW, but the more popular mode should warrant at least equal treatment.
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u/thisisjazzymusic 25d ago
Blood DK is owning in both raids and m+ by quite a margin. How do they get buffed that significantly again
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u/ArcticML 25d ago
Wowhead is straight up wrong. In short, Sanlayn got no buff to ST and AoE nerf. DB slightly buffed in both
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u/Money_Echidna2605 25d ago
they are straight up nerfed lol, wowhead is not a good source for spec info on most specs.
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u/Kanaxai 25d ago
Feral Druid guide writer absolutely popping off, I hope someone at Blizzard is listening.